I need help but I dont even know what to ask

[six]

my 25 yr old son was diagnosed at age 19 w BPD/NPD. he is educated, employed and earns enought money to live simply on his own.  however, in order to "save" money (he is frugal) he chooses to float between our house (Dh, me, and 5 younger siblings), and his 2 sets of grandparents. at times he takes a short term sublet and moves to an aptmt for a few months but even then he comes home many weekends.  he feels no need to tell me in advance when he is going to  be here bec according to him its his house too.  when he is here, everything we do is wrong, there is not enough food, the kids use the computer too much and he doesnt get his turn, and he feels it is only fair that he screams and swears when things dont got his way.  we are all stressed waiting for the next eruption.  in the past when i have tried to talk to him about limiting the amount of time that he spends in the house with the family, he refuses to have the discussion and walks out of the room.  he sometimes goes a few weeks without losing it, but then someone says or does something he doesnt like and he explodes and starts screaming and swearing.  I feel like I am living with a terrorist, he has all the control and I have none.  could someone help me figure out what is a reasonable boundary to set with him and how to set it?

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[musicfan42]

This is probably harsh but I instantly thought about this... . what about if you change the locks of the house and don't give your son a key so that he has to ring the doorbell... . that he can't just barge in automatically. He's 25, it's not his house anymore!

You could also charge him for time spent in the house-he's frugal so he won't like that... . that may cause him to spend a lot less time in the house... . make him buy his own food or charge him for food.

These are harsh suggestions but I think it's time to just put your foot down. You mention that he has narcissistic traits so he will feel like he's entitled to crash at your house whenever he wants.

[Kate4queen]

I think you have to be brave and set some ground rules. It is your house and he is an adult.

When my 22 yr old BPD son walked out with threats and curses etc, the next time he came back I asked him for his key back. He was so shocked he gave it to me. Otherwise I would've changed the locks.

If he is impossible to talk to face to face-(and I have that problem with my son too)-he could be very intimidating, I'd compile a list about what is okay and what is not when he comes to your house-starting with the basic concept that he has to call and ask if it is okay for him to Visit-and I'd email it or send him a letter.

I'd also state in that letter that you are willing to discuss the matter but not if he gets angry or aggressive.

That's not okay for him to do that to you in your own house. Having lived for years with that sort of tyrannical behavior I can only tell you that when we set our own boundaries it was hell for a while but I and my other kids now feel safe in our own house and we didn't when he lived there and everything was about him and his needs.

Good luck. You deserve to be happy in your own home.

[six]

thank you so much for responding. I am new on this board and it means so much to me to hear about your experience. 

when you use the word brave, I guess that is something that I don't feel I have.  I am scared that he will hurt himself or one of us.  I am scared that if I set a boundary and I really try to stick with it, I will end up having to call the police on him.  Some people who are close to me have told me that I have to do that if necessary (call the police) but I am really scared to do it. So brave is what I have to work on.   

I guess on some level I also feel like he has so few relationships outside of our family, that if I restrict him from coming home, I will be cutting him off from his only source of human relationships.  What I would like is for him to come home and act like a regular person, but I know that is just a fantasy.

[qcarolr]

We have recently done a similar thing with our DD27. We now see her away from our home - go out for coffee or a simlple meal, take dogs to the park, do some shopping together. Then if she starts to get angry with me, I can leave and say I will be in touch. It took a while for her to get that this was a real boundary, and no amount of yelling, name calling or threatening would change this.

What are some ways you can stay connected with your DS away from your house? Does he still have a bedroom there - can you repurpose that room for something else? It is valuable to find ways to show he does not live there anymoe. When things settle, then maybe he can be invited for a visit.

This is really hard to do, but worth it.

Take good care of yourself to give you the strength you will need. And get the others in your family on board with this if possible - esp  your dh.

qcr  

[heronbird]

I hope this does not sound to harsh but no one is helping him by taking him in each time.

I have a niece who has ASPD and my mum keeps saying she has to take her in because she cant see her on the streets (shes 18) I try to tell my mum she is not doing her any favours, if you keep jumping into the problem pool with them you wont be able to help them, I think that is from a book. It says in the book if someone is drowning you dont jump in with them because you will both drown.

I think he is old enough to not keep coming back home and I would not allow it if it was my 19 year old BPDd.

Still, its hard, and its not black and white, sometimes you need this board to give you the confidence to be firmer and not feel mean.

I hope it gets sorted its soso hard

[js friend]

My dd hasnt had housekeys since she was 16yo. I really did feel like  it was my last resort and I felt like I  had tried everything else, but dd wasnt willing to change her behaviour so i had to change mine.What we are aiming for is quaility time in our homes and it doesnt sound like you are having too much of this with your ds.Showing respect for one another in our homes is a reasonable boundry and if your ds is coming into your home he needs to comply with your house rules.

In an ideal world at 25yo your ds would have friends or g/f that he wants to share his weekend with... . but Sometimes we need to steer our pwBPD in the right direction and plant that seed... . so is there a chance that your ds could find himself a hobby that he does at the weekend away from your home?  Maybe It could be something that could also involve his other siblings... . say like a sport, or a group for something he has an interest in.

It would free up  some weekends for you and would also give him a chance to make some friends. 

[six]

qcr, spending time out of the house with him is a great idea.  I recently spent a morning walking in a park with him and it was great.  I noticed at the end of 3 hours he started to lose it a bit and I went home. all in all it was one of my best times with him and I would love to do it more often. 

I still dont know how I would broach a conversation with him about him not treating  the house as his home.   Its hard for me to imagine telling a child of mine that he is not welome in our house.  I guess one of the problems is that I have 2 daughters, ages 22 and 24, who both work and live at home, and his attitude has always been if the girls can live here, so can I.  he refuses to see any distinction between himself and the other kids in the family.  he always tells me that I "favor" the girls over him so this would be one more indication of that.

but I know that you are right and if I ould do this, I would have much better quality time with him outside the house and a better life with my other kids in the house.

j's friend, my son has no hobbies or friends bec pretty much every one and every thing out there in the world is stupid and a waste of time.   all he does is read books.  he does spend a lot of time in libraries, but then he likes to come home and tell all the kids in the house that they are not reading enough and wasting their lives, etc. etc. on the tv or computer.  thanks for the idea, though, I will try to think about steering him, although I have never been able to do much steering with him, because I am so stupid and also a child abuser (according to him)

[griz]

emaofsix:  You mentioned you have two daughters who work and live at home.  What are the rules for them?  I have a daughter 23 who works and lives at home also.  Once she got a full time job, I let her have a month of treating herself but after that there were rules for living in our home and contributing. She contributes by giving us money for her insurance and also a small amount each paycheck that is for repayment of her student loan.  She is expected to help out around the house, do her own laundry and bed linens and towels and she is expected to be respectful like letting us know when she will be home or if she is going out and will be staying at her bf's overnight she knows she must let us know.  Do you have any rules for your daughters?  If you do you could share them with your son and explain that these are the rules for everyone.  I am asking about your daughters because if there are no expectations for them, then I could see his feeling entitled to do what he wants also.

Are there things that you need done at home that your son could do when he is there?  This might be helpful for you and also for him.  Is there a project maybe you've always wanted done that maybe he could plan and take care of.  Just some ideas.

Griz

[twojaybirds]

My dd is 19.  When things exploded last year and she moved out

I changed all the locks on the house.

She was invited by me to spend the night when i wanted  (her graduation night... . Christmas... . an occasional just for fun)  but I set the rules.

Now she is on summer break and her housing fell through (long story as you can imagine)  but she is working 2 jobs so I have bent my rule (she needed to be in counsleing to move back in) and am letting her stay

She does not have a key and cannot be in the house when I am not home.  I did turn over the garage to her  (unheated... . unfinshed)  but she houses up in there with all her clothes and it is a place forher to be when I am not home.

I keep all the upstairs doors locked except the room she sleeps in and the bathroom

I am leaving on a two week vacation and she needs to find a place to be. I bet she sleeps in the garage which will keep her from sleeping on the streets.  That isOK with me as long as she keeps working.

[Kate4queen]

It's really hard because we love our kids regardless of what they do and say, but sometimes we have to protect ourselves, and to me it sounds like you have reached a point when you know that, but you are too fearful to actually do anything that might upset the delicate balance with your son.

Trust me, I've been there. I've had to face the fact that my small boundary to protect myself might make him threaten to harm himself, walk out of my house for good, spread malicious gossip about us, become homeless, steal, lie, emotionally blackmail.

All those things.

And yes he's done them all and I've survived because I can't change him. I can only protect myself and the rest of my family. I can't allow him to define me or jump every time he has a crisis.

It's hard but sometimes you have to strengthen yourself before you can help him.

Is there something small you could start with?

Like asking him to call if he is coming over?

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[six]

griz

I like what you wrote.

the truth of the matter is that the girls do an enormous amount of housework and errands, babysitting for younger siblings, shopping cooking cleaning and basically helping me with anything and everything.  not to mention that they are loving and respectful to me, my DH and their grandparents.

i would love to give my dsBPD something to do that would help me but if he takes the car, he often will crash it, if I ask him to do shopping he will tell me we should not spent the money, we dont really need any food, and the kids eat too much anyway. basically anything i ask, he will only make it worse and not better, so i end up just asking the girls to do it or doing it myself. 

This sounds a little whiney as I re-read it.  but i think what you are saying makes a lot of sense.   to figure out how he could contribute to the household if he is going to be here.  working on that.  thanks!

[six]

It's really hard because we love our kids regardless of what they do and say, but sometimes we have to protect ourselves, and to me it sounds like you have reached a point when you know that, but you are too fearful to actually do anything that might upset the delicate balance with your son.

Trust me, I've been there. I've had to face the fact that my small boundary to protect myself might make him threaten to harm himself, walk out of my house for good, spread malicious gossip about us, become homeless, steal, lie, emotionally blackmail.

All those things.

And yes he's done them all and I've survived because I can't change him. I can only protect myself and the rest of my family. I can't allow him to define me or jump every time he has a crisis.

It's hard but sometimes you have to strengthen yourself before you can help him.

Is there something small you could start with?

Like asking him to call if he is coming over?

Queen Kate, this really spoke to me.  Here is what happened this morning:

I said, "I really need you to let me know when you would like to be here so that I can know what to expect.  it is hard for me when you just show up at the door without any warning." 

he said, "ok here is my schedule for the next two weeks, does that work for you?"

makes ya wonder if he even has BPD!

of course this boundary does not involve any discussion about swearing at me, trying to control the other kids, taking my car, etc. but as you said, it is a first small step. 

Trying to get brave.  thanks

[Kate4queen]

It's really hard because we love our kids regardless of what they do and say, but sometimes we have to protect ourselves, and to me it sounds like you have reached a point when you know that, but you are too fearful to actually do anything that might upset the delicate balance with your son.

Trust me, I've been there. I've had to face the fact that my small boundary to protect myself might make him threaten to harm himself, walk out of my house for good, spread malicious gossip about us, become homeless, steal, lie, emotionally blackmail.

All those things.

And yes he's done them all and I've survived because I can't change him. I can only protect myself and the rest of my family. I can't allow him to define me or jump every time he has a crisis.

It's hard but sometimes you have to strengthen yourself before you can help him.

Is there something small you could start with?

Like asking him to call if he is coming over?

Queen Kate, this really spoke to me.  Here is what happened this morning:

I said, "I really need you to let me know when you would like to be here so that I can know what to expect.  it is hard for me when you just show up at the door without any warning." 

he said, "ok here is my schedule for the next two weeks, does that work for you?"

makes ya wonder if he even has BPD!

of course this boundary does not involve any discussion about swearing at me, trying to control the other kids, taking my car, etc. but as you said, it is a first small step. 

Trying to get brave.  thanks

That's awesome Good for you!

I'd ask him for that every 2 weeks so it becomes a habit and then at least you are prepared for his descent on you.

Do you let him in the house if you aren't there? If you knew he was coming, would you be able to not be there or would he simply come in anyway and bug everyone else?

It's so hard to stand up yourself when you've been told that you're the problem for years. But little steps, right. You deserve to feel secure in your own house.

[EmmaLou]

i would love to give my dsBPD something to do that would help me but if he takes the car, he often will crash it, if I ask him to do shopping he will tell me we should not spent the money, we dont really need any food, and the kids eat too much anyway. basically anything i ask, he will only make it worse and not better, so i end up just asking the girls to do it or doing it myself.

This happens with my 19-year-old son, too, and it makes me feel really sorry for him. He has never allowed himself the pleasure of knowing that he's making a real, valuable contribution to the household.  He's too focused on contradicting, defying and ignoring us, or faking ignorance about how to complete the simplest tasks and demanding that we repeat the instructions until we give up.  And at the same time, he maintains the most grandiose ideas about how competent and helpful he is. 

We finally stopped asking him for help with general chores, but did require that he sign a room rental agreement as a lodger in our home.  The agreement stipulates that he must keep his own room reasonably clean and clean up after himself when he uses the kitchen.

Good luck with your son.  The revolving door must be exhausting for you.

[six]

I wish I could feel sorry for my son.  I am so busy feeling hurt and angry that I never get to the point of realizing how sad his life is.  As soon as he comes into the house I start getting ready for the onslaught.

I have spent the last few days thinking up ideas of how he could contribute to the household.  I think I will ask him to pull up weeds.  That does not involve spending or driving, so it might work. 

taking one baby step at a time

[heronbird]

When you look at your son, why dont you try to imagine the word "PAIN" written on his forehead. That worked for me.

If you havent already and you dont mind reading, I would suggest reading overcoming BPD by Valerie Porr, it changed my relationship with my daughter and I. Gave me more  understanding and taught me tools to cope.

Id say its a must to read. I want to give it to all the professionals who work with my dd.

[pessim-optimist]

Hi emaofsix and EmmaLou   



Just wanted to say WELCOME to this community!

Thank you for sharing your stories, and  concerns about boundaries.

There has been some very good advice on this thread.

Here's a good video about setting boundaries by Randi Kreger (the author of "The Essential Family Guide to BPD":

www.youtube.com/watch?v=85_eYftuv0k

Baby steps is a very good approach. Especially in the beginning when we are trying to hold on to our boundaries and are learning to withstand the push-back that comes from the pwBPD.

[six]

thats a good idea to imagine the word PAIN written on him

it is so true bec he is always in pain

I have read Valerie's book and I will look at it again

I agree that it has changed my perspective, but I still feel like I have a lot of unanswered ?

I am feeling much lighter since I started sharing on this board

It is so isolating to go thru this, bec even my friends who listen to my stories dont really get what I am talking about it its good to hear from others who are experiencing similar things

thanks to everyone for the responses

[heronbird]

Yes, the pain in my dds head was and can still be so bad and  at times impossible to tolerate, everything she ever did was to feel better, so sad.

I felt isolated too and unsupported. No one told me which books would be good, in fact no one told me to get a book   No one even told me to try to find some groups or anything at all. I want to change that for people, I would like to see everyone with a new diagnosis getting a leaflet with some good sites, books and internet things.

I did loads of research and I wont take no for an answer, but not everyone is the same.

Im sure you have more questions, I dont think we will ever be able to address all the issues, thats why its so hard too.

I dont know about you but I have been so invalidated by the clinicians over the years too. As if we havent got enough on our plates 

[six]

so I guess the joke's on me

after he said, sure mom, here is my schedule for next week

he completely ignored the schedule and stayed in the house on the days he said he would be gone

I asked him calmly if he had changed his plans and let him know that once he has given me a schedule I would need him to let me know if his plans change bec I am expecting him to do what he had said he would do

he gave me a loud speech about how if his life wasnt --it from the minute he was born things would be different but bec he was born into such a disfunctional family, he cant possibly be expected to know where he is goingto be etc etc

I told him that i wanted to speak about the schedule and not get distracted with other topics

he finally agreed that he would email me on sunday and tell me his plans

but now I realize that htis means nothing bec he will hcange his mind and not have the courtesy to let me know

I am not even saying that he has to ask to come to the house, just that I would like to know in advance so I can plan for the week

this is where things always seem to go.  he doesnt really do what he says he will do and then blames it on me

it makes it hard to set a boundary bec he doesnt keep them

on the other hand, I do not want to kick him out of hte house bec he has not doen anything to warrant that

i sense that he is trying to stay out of my way.  he treats the house like a hotel.  doesnt really interact with us, which is helpful, but also irritating

thanks for letting me vent

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Rapt Reader]

Hi, emaofsix     I'm so sorry that your son is driving you nuts with his behavior! I know just how you feel trying to deal with him; my own dBPDs36 has put me through so much over the last 17 years, that it would take a novel for me to tell you about it!   Things are so much better now--and a lot of that is due to my finding this website and learning how to not push his buttons, and how to look at things the right way so that I don't go crazy with all the things I expected from him but didn't get... .

Your story sounds really stressful and confusing, and I can see how you are finding it so difficult to know what to do     Have you spent some time navigating this website to find some of the many Articles, Workshops and Videos  available to give information? If you click on the Boards tab above your first post in this thread (here's the link: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php),  at the bottom of that page you will find The Learning Center Boards that will take you to the articles, workshops and videos mentioned above. The Book Reviews there also would be a great resource. 

I bet you could find subjects there that would answer your questions, or give you good advice in dealing with your son's horrible BPD symptoms and behaviors. You may have already checked all of that out, and if so, forgive me... . I just know that when I came here in April I was floundering, not knowing how to deal with my dBPDs36, and I explored all the tools on this site that I mentioned, above, and it was invaluable for my son's recovery process and my own sanity 

[six]

thanks for the tip, rapt

i will check that out

didnt know about it

I have only been on here for a few days

[vivekananda]

Hiya emaof6   

Welcome to our board! You have had some really good advice from our parents here. It feels good to know you're not alone doesn't it? Exploring the resources of the site is a really good idea.

You mentioned that you had read Valerie Porr's book, it is a good one isn't it? I would like to recommend you add two more books to the list. They come very highly recommended to you. One is the Lundberg's book "I don't have to make everything all better", see the link below to tell you about it:

I don't have to make everything all better

The other book is: "Boundaries - when to say yes, how to say no to take control of your life" by H. Cloud and J. Townsend

It is a steep learning curve for us when we first come to grips with BPD, but I think it's worth the effort. I am able to work on my relationship with my d32 now thanks to the support and guidance I found here. There is hope for an improvement in your relationship with your son too.

sending you love

Vivek    

[six]

thanks Vivek  for the tip

I ordered the books