How much communication do you expect from attorney?

[thinkingthinking]

My BPDh seems to talk to his lawyer about 4 times as much as I talk to mine.  Yesterday, I received a letter from the court stating that I had not fulfilled the requirement to mediation (which we did back in March), and then found out that one of my lawyer's representative's met with his lawyer about something this past week.

In the meantime, BPDh is sending me e-mails telling me how much more debt needs to be counted in the financial settlement, how much of my retirement he thinks he should get, and that I'm "lucky" that he dropped his request for spousal support.  This just had me reeling yesterday, and I sent an email to attorney asking why the court didn't know that we attended mediation when I provided that information to him and his assistant, and stating that I didn't feel in the loop regarding what was going on.  Granted, I was frustrated, but his response surprised me.  He basically told me that he disagreed with my complaint and that he would proceed with what he was doing, or I could take my business to another lawyer and pay them to review everything again.

So now I don't feel good either way.  I'm not sure that he is really looking out for my best interests, but have already paid him over $3000 and am close to being done with the process.  This is the first time I've used an attorney for anything and I got his name from a friend of mine. I am just not sure what to expect or do.  I feel harrassed by my BPDh, and just want out of the situation altogether. 

What kind of communication should I expect from my attorney, and what can be done if I don't think he has represented me appropriately?

[marbleloser]

We have to remember that attorneys have other clients too,but your attorney should get back to you within 24 hours with anything.Sometimes things are forgotten by accident.

$3000 is nothing(generally speaking) and your attorney has gotten about all the money he's going to get from the way it sounds.That's probably why he doesn't care.We are emotionally invested in the divorce.Our attorneys aren't.

That said,he was rather rude and condescending to you,so I'd drop him like a rock and get someone else.

If you feel he hasn't represented you correctly,turn him in to the BAR Assoc.

I've been fortunate that mine responds pretty quickly most times.I do have nudge a little bit sometimes though.

I'm in for about 4x your amount though.Still have a ways to go.

[marbleloser]

Oh yeah,don't even respond to your ex's emails.It'll just make you angry and he wants that.

If it relates to the divorce and you're not sure about it,send it to your atty.

[NewWays]

Kim0914... .

Just remember... . any contact with your attorney costs you money no matter how you communicate... . email, phone, fax, etc.

You have to take the initiative to manage your communications just like you manage your checking account.

You may want to think about a strategy of sending an update reqeust email each week that askes... .

1.  Status of proceedings

2.  What elements do I still need to provide you with?

     Copy of credit card bill

     Copy of mortgage

     Declaration of assets document

3.  What are the key areas that are outstanding, that my spouse and I are not in agreement on

4.  How are you going to approach the above and please clarify so I concur on the same

I know its tough but you really do not want your attorney to call you all the time since it costs you money.

NewWays

[momtara]

This has happened to me a few times, where I felt my attorney didn't communicate enough.  She also made mistakes.  The thing about your husband communitcating with your atty 4x as much as you do -- I TOTALLY felt the same way, but I don't know if it's just that our husbands have disorders and they communicate with their attorneys about every little dumb worry and thing.  That's what I think is happening.  My husband paid a 7500 retainer and blew through all of it.  Remember also that our husbands tend to lie (at least, mine does) so you don't really know how often he communicates with his atty.

As for switching, we are so beholden to our attorneys that we are afraid of offending them, and for good reason - it's really hard to keep giving new information to other people, and it's expensive.  Matt and I had a conversation about that a few days ago on this board; you can probably find the post - it's about my new attorney making a big mistake.  That said, your attorney SHOULD NOT be as rude and mean as yours was to you.  Does that mean you should switch when the case is almost over?  You have to think about that.  If you really are close to finished, maybe not.  Sometimes it's worth biting your tongue.  Depends on if you think he's really a screwup and will keep screwing up, or just made one mistake.

With my first attorney, I resisted criticizing her a bunch of times when I should have, and I started feeling like my relationship with her was as dysfunctional as with my husband!  This new attorney seemed great but then sent a letter I never would have wanted her to send, that seemed like the opposite of what she should have done.  I didn't criticize her for this, because I don't want to lose a second attorney.  It is frustrating though.

In case you DO decide to switch - the attys need to both send 'substitution of atty' letters back and fortyh.  you will need to give your new person all the relevant documents, or you can have your present atty do that, but it will cost more money.  You can meet with a few different attorneys and get free consultations, but switching does cost money.  You'll need to pay a new retainer.  If they don't use it up, you should get a refund, but check on that first.  There are sometimes also rules about when you can switch.  If you've had your settlement conference, you sometimes can't switch.

Anyway, keep us posted. 

[livednlearned]

Since you are close to being done, I would ask yourself the following questions:

1) Am I likely to lose whatever outcome I had to hoped to gain by using this attorney; (meaning, are the mistakes egregious enough to cause you significant loss)

2) Do I believe that this settlement will truly end the negative engagement with my ex; (meaning, what aspects of your divorce are likely to linger, ie. property division. You may feel as though you are close to being "done," but often that is not the case with high-conflict divorces. The kinds of things our exes do to stonewall are infinite.)

3) Can I afford to switch attorneys at this point; (if you think your ex is going to drag this out, what you can afford may be a moot point. But still, if you have $$$ for another retainer with a different attorney that you want to stick with through the long haul, then switching is likely the best option).

4) What is at stake; (for example, if you can cut your losses and settle so that you minimize the emotional cost, that's one choice. Some people make that choice, and it's ok. (Tends to be different if kids are involved.) If you stand to lose a significant amount in the settlement and the only reason is because you are not asserting yourself, or your attorney is making mistakes, that's another choice.)

In general, when your ex sends you emails that piss you off, pay attention to what is being said and don't let it rattle you. Often, what they say will antagonize you, but my ex routinely tipped his hand about what he was planning on doing. He was trying to intimidate me, but he was actually revealing his strategy. Ideally, you want an attorney who recognizes that, and who will strategize with you when your ex offloads information about what he plans to do.

I have an excellent attorney, but I had to have a heart to heart with her at one point. I showed up for mediation and realized she hadn't been reading things I was sending her. I finally brought it up (thanks to therapy), and she told me she did not want to run up my bill by reading everything when she knew she could do it during mediation, when I was there. It made a lot of sense. There was a lot of time sitting around waiting that day, and it was expensive. We worked it out so that she would tell me when she was doing things to save me money. And gave me suggestions for what I could do to save myself money. For example, I created a binder of emails and categorized them for her in advance of our deposition. That saved me between $2500-3000 because I did an ace job and made it easier for her to find material. It was also an awesome prop for her to have during the deposition  

Also, keep in mind that family law attorneys are not good at all parts of the law. I realized that my L was excellent at the custody stuff, but not as knowledgeable about division of property. I asked her if she felt expert enough to handle the refinancing of my house, and she said no and gave me the name of another attorney. You really have to advocate for yourself, and that means two things: listen to your gut, and take care of yourself.

It may be hard for you to stand up to your L after he was so rude to you, but that doesn't mean he isn't a good L. People respect you when you speak your mind and push back. Your L works for you. If you want your L to consult with you about everything, then say that. If you don't want your L to discuss your case with the other L unless you give express permission, say that. If you want your L to save costs (meaning less communication) then say that. If you want your L to spend time explaining how the process works (meaning more expense) then say that. And last, if your L makes a mistake, decide in advance what your tolerance level is and how you are going to handle it.

Having a strategy, having goals -- they're both super important, but they take a lot of hard thinking and soul searching up front. And then you have to have the backbone to stick with that strategy. That's hard for a lot of nons who are reeling from the emotional blow out of a BPD marriage.

Hang in there. It does get easier.  

[thinkingthinking]

This attorney did come recommended by a couple of friends, but exactly what you described has occurred.  I found 3 emails between March and May where I had restated that we DID go to mediation and asking if they needed more copies of the information.  So to have him forward me a letter from the court stating that this was not completed was just frustrating.  Maybe I hit a nerve by pointing out something he missed, but I have been as organized as I possibly could be in this process, and really just want to know that someone has a handle on the next steps.

With that said, I am too close to being done, and I don't think that this interaction will affect the outcome. Having primary physical custody of D11 has been most important to me, and that has never been debated. The money issues (him asking for spousal support, a big chunk of my retirement, etc.) are the things that get contentious.  At times I'm tempted to just say "sure, take it", but then I know that is not in my own or kids' best interest.  Patience is difficult when constantly barraged with e-mails and texts from BPDh, but logically I do know I need to filter.  He probably is exagerating, or is calling her very frequently.  I'm still walking this fine line of trying not to make him mad, fearing that he could make this whole process drag on even longer.  So I guess in many ways I'm still living that very dysfunctional life.  I think I'm going to have a "starting over" party when this is finally over with!   

[atcrossroads]

Kim,

That truly stinks.  I think it might be best to stick it out, as you sound like you are close to having things finalized.  My attorney is great and seems very fair with charges, but I had a lot of stress in finding/choosing him.  I wish you the best!

I showed up for mediation and realized she hadn't been reading things I was sending her. I finally brought it up (thanks to therapy), and she told me she did not want to run up my bill by reading everything when she knew she could do it during mediation, when I was there. It made a lot of sense. There was a lot of time sitting around waiting that day, and it was expensive. We worked it out so that she would tell me when she was doing things to save me money. And gave me suggestions for what I could do to save myself money. For example, I created a binder of emails and categorized them for her in advance of our deposition. That saved me between $2500-3000 because I did an ace job and made it easier for her to find material. It was also an awesome prop for her to have during the deposition  

Hi Livednlearned - the binder idea with categorized emails sounds like an outstanding idea and one which I should do for my attorney.  My husband has sent me numerous abusive emails (they have now stopped, thanks to my attorney).  Our big sticking point now is that he is stalling in getting our house listed (he's been living there for 5 months w/ me paying 1/2 bills), and my attorney is preparing a packet of bank statements, emails, etc. to show he is making false claims that I "owe" him money -- all of this is stalling selling our house and letting me move on with my life (and he his!).

Organization doesn't come naturally to me.  Can you give any pointers or examples of how you organized your binder (headings, sections, etc.)?  I think I need to devote several hours to gathering paperwork and organizing it this weekend -- I dread it.

Any help/advice you can provide as to how you organized yours would be most appreciated!

[scraps66]

Just reading quickly it does not sound like your L is providing good services including not giving good answers to your questions.  Not reading material is one thing, not being prepared by reading materials prior to appearing in court is another. 

I went through a couple attorneys, suing the third now, for things that started as poor communication, then poor preparation, that all lead to me spending/losing more money and unnecessarily extending my case. 

[scraps66]

Also, I was "close" to the end, thought about changing attorneys, and didn't because I was "close" to the end which is a tenuous position when dealing with a BP.  I let it all go - then had my case extended a year to closure when that L missed a deadline and an opportunity to close.  That then lead to another $14k in legal fees, $8k more in settlement, and 12 additional months to close the case.

My point, give this some thought based on the above.  Make sure you are comfortable with staying the course and if not, take action.  It needs to be rigth in your head so going forward you won't have as many regrets.  I say as many cuzz there will always be things that could have done differently the casue of dealing with a BP that is constanlty moving the goal post.

[Matt]

He basically told me that he disagreed with my complaint and that he would proceed with what he was doing, or I could take my business to another lawyer and pay them to review everything again.

This is abusive.  You can't allow him to treat you like this, and it will be best to make sure this is not a secret.

Check out the right way to proceed.  You may be able to send this to the judge, and ask that the case be delayed so you can find another attorney.

You may also want to talk with your state's bar association and file a complaint.  They may have a mediation service.  Make it clear that you have not recieved the service you paid for, and that your attorney is bullying you, and you expect a refund.  I don't know if you will get that, but the bar association probably will want to resolve it without you filing suit against the attorney.  It's possible your attorney, acting through the bar association, will provide a refund.

Make sure everyone - the bar association and the court - knows how you have been treated.  Keeping it quiet makes it more likely he'll treat other clients the same way.

From:  kim0314

To:  Attorney

cc:  State bar association, court

Your note below is abusive and inappropriate.  You are fired effective immediately.

Stop work and do not charge any more hours to me.  Return all files related to my case to me immediately.

I have not recieved the services for which you contracted, so I expect a full refund.  If I have not received it within one week I will take appropriate actions which may include filing suit and/or complaints with the bar association and the court.

If I do not recieve all files related to the case within one week I will take appropriate actions which may include informing the court of your failure to perform the contracted services and failure to return the files.

[momtara]

Why is it that we end up in a dysfunctional relationship with our attorneys similar to the ones with our spouses (we know it's best to leave but maybe if we just hang on... . )

I'm sort of kidding.  Sometimes you have to hang in there if you're near the end.  Sometimes not. 

The problem is that you have no idea how good these attorneys are until you use them, and then you have a lot invested in them.  If you get a new one, the new one could be a screwball too.

I've read on this board a lot that people say you have to be vigilant and press them.  In the end, the only one you can rely on is yourself.

[livednlearned]

Organization doesn't come naturally to me.  Can you give any pointers or examples of how you organized your binder (headings, sections, etc.)?  I think I need to devote several hours to gathering paperwork and organizing it this weekend -- I dread it.

Any help/advice you can provide as to how you organized yours would be most appreciated!

I did two things. I went into Google calendar and entered events, incidents, things I needed to remember. You can print them out as an itemized list so that it creates a helpful timeline. I included things like dr. appointments, major wacky events with N/BPDx, legal dates, dates when I filed things, or anything I thought I might need during court.

Second, I printed out every single email N/BPDx sent, and put everything in chronological order. Then I went through and read each email and used colored tabs to sort the emails into 1 of 4 categories: 1) evidence N/BPDx had a drinking problem; 2) threats and/or evidence of abuse/rage/hate/bullying issues; 3) evidence N/BPDx could not coparent; and 4) evidence that N/BPDx was having inappropriate conversations with S11.

Before the deposition, I went back into the binder and sorted everything into sections according to those categories (so it wasn't all in chronological order). I realized that it was easier to clump categories according to events. So for example, N/BPDx was very slippery and tricky about medicating S11 for ADHD. I put a binder clip around the 50-60 emails sent that were related to that issue (and kept the colored tabs on).

I also kept a log of everything that was happening -- if you are disciplined enough to do that, I highly recommend it! It was so helpful, not just to refresh my memory, but to help me see patterns I would not have otherwise noticed. My L was so impressed during deposition and other court appointments because I knew my facts. Part of it was just the process of organizing everything, because it helped me remember what happened and when.

I can almost guarantee that your ex will not take the time to do that.

I created a key for my L so that she could understand the colored tabs

[Matt]

Why is it that we end up in a dysfunctional relationship with our attorneys similar to the ones with our spouses (we know it's best to leave but maybe if we just hang on... . )

Yeah, I think this is very true.

We give out a vibe that says, "If you treat me badly I'll put up with it.", so people who - for whatever reason - are inclined to treat others badly, are attracted to that vibe.  A boyfriend or girlfriend, or an attorney - in some ways similar situations.  And the longer we put up with the abuse, the worse it gets.