Advice re his response after 4 months NC

[mitti]

It's of course true that the book is a link between us.

The problem for me here is this (and regardless of what the book represents) - he has humiliated me and mistreated me, throughout our r/s apart from the times when he was the most loving man on earth of course. I understand that this is a part of the disease and I also understand that he is in torment inside for a lot of the time. That however does not give him the right to abuse me. I have no greater responsibility for how I behave and react than he has for how he behaves and reacts. If I find it impossible to detach is not a measure of how grown up I am, it is a measure of the amount of baggage I carry and how disordered I am myself. If he mistreats me it is on him and not on me.

I need to regain my self respect and there is no way, I can do this while at the same time yet again having to see to his needs when mine are completely neglected. I can't deal with the shame and why I feel shame dates back to my FOO but none the less I cannot do it. I can't move on, I can't take any more pain. All I want is for the the pain to go. Complying with his wishes now that he has hurt me anew equals more pain for me, more humiliation - I cannot do it. I'd rather stand my ground that I am not doing what he wants the way he wants it. I am sick of this man controlling me, hurting me, treating me like a non-person.

I have written to him, not in anger but just asking why the need to inform me that he has a gf, what's the need when I haven't contacted him for all this time. I tell him that the book really is his responsibility and I am not mailing it or putting it through the mail box. He knows where it is, he can organize to get it himself.

I am not going to hold onto the book, of course not, but I am not enabling him this time. When we broke up the time before this one, he refused to give me my things back for 5 months. When he finally stopped fighting me for it, I had to carry the heavy furniture just me and my daughter because he refused to return it although he had borrowed it. He made it my responsibility to go get it, why is it still my responsibility when it is about his things?

Btw, he has not responded.

[Clearmind]

I am not going to hold onto the book, of course not, but I am not enabling him this time. When we broke up the time before this one, he refused to give me my things back for 5 months. When he finally stopped fighting me for it, I had to carry the heavy furniture just me and my daughter because he refused to return it although he had borrowed it. He made it my responsibility to go get it, why is it still my responsibility when it is about his things?

Btw, he has not responded.

Talking from experience - this will keep you attached and hooked. Choice is yours.

[Murbay]

Clearmind beat me to it, but I was going to say the very same thing.

One of the most frustrating things about a relationship with a pwBPD is that sometimes you don't get the closure you want. Which in turn allows us to carry some element of anger or frustration because it was irrational and illogical. It doesn't mean you should forget those things but just like with the book, whilst you keep hold of those feelings, he will always have that control over you. The day you are able to let go is the day that you get back that control from him.

It is unfair that he made you fight for your things and equally as unfair that he made you go and get those things yourself. Just stop and think about it for a second and how that made you feel. Are you prepared to lower yourself to that same level or are you a strong person who can rise above that?

Don't worry, we have all had those very same thoughts and you are certainly not alone. That is why this board can help on so many levels because I'm certain we have all been through that same thinking pattern at some point so we can relate to how you are thinking and feeling right now 

He made it my responsibility to go get it, why is it still my responsibility when it is about his things?

This is the part we all get caught up on, he didn't make you do anything and that is what keeps us going around in circles. What he did was deflected that responsibility back at you but ultimately the only person who can make you do anything is yourself. Just as with the case of the book, it's trying to assert that element of control over another person, subconsciously or not.

As Clearmind stated, it is entirely your choice and nobody here will tell you what you should do because that is entirely your decision to make. The choice you need to make isn't about a book or furniture but about whether you want to get off the rollercoaster. For me personally, in that same position (and I have been there too, having those very same thoughts you are) I would post the book back without saying another word and let them take the responsibility of deciding whether they keep it.

As is more often the case in these relationships, we don't get the closure we want from the other person and it may be years before they start taking that responsibility, or sometimes even never. The only way we can get that closure is to find that closure in ourselves, forgive ourselves and forgive them. Relinquish all hooks and attachment and allow ourselves to be truly free. That is where we find that closure 

[123Phoebe]

When we broke up the time before this one, he refused to give me my things back for 5 months. When he finally stopped fighting me for it, I had to carry the heavy furniture just me and my daughter because he refused to return it although he had borrowed it. He made it my responsibility to go get it, why is it still my responsibility when it is about his things?

Mitti, you made it your responsibility and your business when you texted him about possibly wanting the book.

Your original text didn't have conditions attached saying, 'Hey ex, do you want your special book back?  Here's the deal... .  In case you have a girlfriend, the book really is your responsibility and I am not mailing it or putting it through the mail box. You knows where it is, you can organize to get it yourself.'


For your very own reasons you're choosing not to detach from this man.  And by not detaching (sending him back his book that you asked him if he wanted), you're choosing to live with these terrible feelings.  

Is this really the way you want to stay attached?  

If it is, then well... . It is, I guess.  

[Clearmind]

Yes its unfortunate that we would rather go on punishing ourselves than to detach.

Mitti, you may not see it however this is punishing you way more than its punishing him - you cannot make him pay - he pays in other ways due to his illness - you have the fortunate ability to detach.

Find some healthy ways to let go of this man - he has a history of going silent on you - do you really want this for your future?

[patientandclear]

I don't know that the book really matters right now.  I think it's clear to all involved that the book was a chance for an overture -- Mitti explained all of her reasons for choosing to reach out now, which did not have to do with the book.  And the reasons she explained were very nuanced, and none of us have complete answers to them ... . she was feeling doubtful she will meet someone else as fulfilling as this man, even with his challenging aspects; she was feeling doubtful about whether life is very meaningful without a partner, even though she's spent a lot of her life alone (I'm in that same boat post-BPD r/s); she was wondering if it would be better to have him in her life in some capacity, and she wanted to explore that possibility.  These are all hard questions to know the right answer to.

Unfortunately the overture returned some very difficult news.

I think the issue now is that Mitti needs a chance to assimilate and grieve that new information.  Whenever any of us get that information (and I've been there), there are such hard thoughts of not being enough, wondering why the pwBPD wouldn't make enough of an effort with us, but seemingly is for the new person, wondering if anyone will choose us, and so on.  We've almost all been there.

That is a big processing assignment, and my sense is that is what this period is for Mitti.  The book seems like a side issue.

Mitti  

[mitti]

I am exhausted so forgive me for perhaps being incoherent.

Hi 123Phoebe,

One thing is to not agree with me about this situation and it is totally fine to have a difference of opinions as to what course of action is fair, just and reasonable. Another thing is to be invalidating.

What I may feel inside is different from what I may let him know I feel. I am not going to argue about what I wrote to him and what I wanted to convey. The deal is that all throughout our r/s I have been enabling this man, I have guessed, or been told, his needs and fulfilled them, I have been conditioned to alter my behavior to suit him. He has manipulated me to doing this by making it uncomfortable for me to look after myself and not him. I had a totally different approach with him in the beginning and was very clear on my boundaries. Our T used to tell both of us that although we both felt shame easily we reacted to it opposite of each other - he would refuse to do anything for me and I would choose to do everything for him and neglect my own needs. The T told both of us that we needed to alter our behavior for our own health and the health of the r/s.

You and I disagree as to whether this book is my responsibility or not. When he refused to give me my things back and I in the end, when he finally let me come and get them, had to carry it home with no help from him, he has assigned whose responsibility it is to do what. All I am doing is making this fair. Whatever reasons I have for choosing not to do any more than this for him to get his book, from where he is standing, whether he agrees with me or not, this is fair, because I am following his rules.

My original text didn't include conditions, nor did it say that I would make sure he got the book if he wanted it. It simply informed him the book was at my house and did he want it, as in if "yes" then I will keep it until he gets it, however that is done. I don't agree I made anything my responsibility by texting him but I do think texting him about it in the first place was my responsibility as he otherwise may not even have known where it was. I was convinced his first response would be for me to post it or put it through the mail box. I would have said no to that even if he hadn't let me know he had met somebody else.

This is not a way to detach or stay attached. It is a way for me to enforce my boundaries, look after myself and coping with shame.

And it is not because he has somebody else but because of his reasons for mentioning that to me. He has told me before he didn't want to hear about my meeting somebody else, of course because it hurts, so why do it to me.

[mitti]

Hi Clearmind & Murbay

Thank you for your responses.

This is not primarily a way for me to detach or to get closure. It is a way for me to deal with the immense shame and humiliation I feel. I have always helped him, fulfilled his needs and often at my own expense. He knows this. I need to show him I won't do that any more, that I won't do what he has refused to do for me. I do actually think closure and detachment for me will be helped by this approach - I will take back some of my self respect by not allowing him to dictate to me what I need to do when he has gone out of his way to hurt me by telling me he met somebody else.

[mitti]

Hi patientandclear and thank you so much, 

And yes, you are right. I used this opportunity to provide a way for him to interact with me again without having to swallow the pride it probably would have meant for him to reach out to me. A way of saving face for him. I didn't expect the news I got, nor did I expect such a vague and ambiguous first response from him.

I have no idea why the need to hurt me when he is supposedly happy with somebody else but on the other hand it may have been a request/demand from this new woman that he inform me of her.

[seeking balance]

I just reread this thread and it has gone full circle. 

Mitti, this is a healing platform - the facts from this post seem to be:

- you posted in undecided board which indicates you are unsure if you want a relationship with this man.

- you texted "do you want your book back"... . no other context

- you wondered what his answer, "absolutely" meant ... . I think we all can agree this means yes.

- you want to return the book on your own time

- your feelings are hurt because he has a new girlfriend and you feel he is purposely trying to hurt you.

Is there anything we are missing on this thread that you feel is important?

Do you feel you have enough feedback to choose a path away from undecided board to either staying or leaving?  (If I recall, that is the main goal of the undecided board.)

[Skip]

Mitti,

Have you considered reading JOURNEY FROM ABANDONMENT?  This is what is happening right now, abandonment anxiety.  Abandonment anxiety is on us.  It's our inability to cope with a common, painful life experience, one everyone faces, relationship rejection.

The rejection is tearing you apart.  Probably more so than the loss of the relationship which you described as one where you were treated poorly after the honeymoon phase.

Look at #3 below.  This might be a reasonable road map for where you are.  It's not about him anymore.  That is hard to hear and accept - but that is the challenge that lies before you.  It is really about your own abandonment anxiety.

Unfortunately, when we are living this, our anxiety drives us to do things that create more anxiety.   For example, if you simply wanted to be a good person and return the book, you could have just dropped it in the post or sent a text like "Wanted to send you _____, is ok to mail it to your office?"  He likely would have said "Absolutely - yes, thanks", and it would have been a rewarding experience for all.  A little fence mending after the storm.

Instead, you ran a test probe to see if he was open to engaging you -- and he messaged back an unequivocal "no!".  He likely says this strongly because of your history of not letting go.  Telling someone that you have a gf is a very clear way to say "I've moved on".  Relationship books even recommend this as a respectful way to say it.  Now there is nothing rude with sending the probe - you were coy. And there is nothing wrong with his responses to the probe - he was respectful and clear - he didn't lead you on for an ego boost.  And clear massage doesn't mean all the thing you are associating to it - that is the anxiety speaking.  He may still love and respect you, but know that the two of you are not good for each other - something you have also said may times in you 800+ posts.

OK, the rejection hurts.  We all know that feeling first hand.  The challenge is now to see that it is your heightened rejection anxiety is at play and torturing you in many ways

So return the book - show yourself that you have good character.  Accept that this was a probe and that you got what you were seeking - an honest answer - painful, but not unexpected or cruel or manipulative.  And ask yourself if after 2 years of rejection anxiety from a not-too-great two year relationship, is it time to let go and face the anxiety that haunts you (its not him that haunts you).

This is hard.  Good mental health is hard. This is going to take strength - a lot of it.

Skip

Here are the five stages of abandonment: Shattering, Withdrawal, Internalizing, Anger, and Lifting – introduced in the book JOURNEY FROM ABANDONMENT.

1: SHATTERING - Your relationship is breaking apart. Your hopes and dreams are Shattered. You are devastated, bewildered. You succumb to despair and panic. You feel hopeless and have Suicidal feelings. You feel Symbiotically attached to your lost love, mortally wounded, as if you’ll die without them. You are in Severe pain, Shock, Sorrow. You’ve been Severed from your primary attachment. You’re cut off from your emotional life-line.

2: WITHDRAWL – painful Withdrawal from your lost love. The more time goes on, the more all of the needs your partner was meeting begin to impinge into your every Waking moment. You are in Writhing pain from being torn apart. You yearn, ache, and Wait for them to return. Love-withdrawal is just like Heroin Withdrawal – - each involves the body’s opiate system and the same physical symptoms of intense craving. During Withdrawal, you are feeling the Wrenching pain of love-loss and separation – - the Wasting, Weight loss, Wakefulness, Wishful thinking, and Waiting for them to return. You crave a love-fix to put you out of the WITHDRAWAL symptoms.

3: INTERNALIZING – you Internalize the rejection and cause Injury to your self esteem. This is the most critical stage of the cycle when your wound becomes susceptible to Infection and can create permanent scarring. You are Isolated, riddled with Insecurity, self- Indictment and self-doubt. You are preoccupied with ‘If only regrets’ – - If only you had been more attentive, more sensitive, less demanding, etc. You beat yourself up with regrets over the relationship and Idealize your abandoner at the expense of your own self Image.

4: ANGER – the turning point in the grief process when you begin to fight back. You attempt to Reverse the Rejection by Refusing to accept all of the blame for the failed relationship, and feel surges of anger against your abandoner. You Rail against the pain and isolation you’ve been in. Agitated depression and spurts of anger displaced on your friends and family are common during this turbulent time, as are Revenge and Retaliation fantasies toward your abandoner.

5: LIFTING – your anger helped to externalize your pain. Gradually, as your energy spurts outward, it Lifts you back into Life. You begin to Let go. Life distracts you and gradually Lifts you out the grief cycle. You feel the emergence of strength, wiser for the painful Lessons you’ve Learned. And if you’re engaged in the process of recovery, you get ready to Love again.

[mitti]

This is just my take on your words.  Everyone has their own time line on how they will process, handle, grieve, and gain acceptance from this pain. This is a personal process, that will vary with every individual.

The easy thing for everyone else to say is F**K it!  But until you're ready to make that decision in your own mind, it's irrelevant. 

This book is obviously your last attachment to your ex.  It's more than just a book, it's a symbol.  I get that.  Honestly, I had a lot of my x's things and after months of holding onto them, I threw them in the trash.  Not to be mean or hateful (although it did feel good... . ,) but to rid my life of her clutter, her memory, and so I didn't have to think of her every time I would see her items... . this actually helped.

I figured that if things were that important to her, she would've remembered them.  after a couple of months, it was safe to assume that she didn't need them, so I had to rid my life of her clutter!  not just the physical, but emotional as well! 

You did the responsible thing.  It sounds as if he has "moved on," but is playing a game with his ambiguous response of "absolutely."  So, in response to that, I would mail it back to him.  Don't write him a letter or say anything.  remember that your silence says enough!

Rid your life of the clutter!  Who cares what he thinks?  If he's truly moved on, then why would he "think" anything?  Do yourself a favor, and save yourself some unnecessary grieving and stop worrying about things that you cannot control!  Trust me, it's very easy to get caught up in this thinking, but all this is doing is hurting you!

When you can learn not to care about his interpretation of your actions is when you take back YOUR own dignity, self respect, and you can begin living YOUR life again!

MCC

Thanks for sharing MCC,

I understand what you are saying about not caring about his interpretations and this setting me free, but unfortunately it triggers all sorts of awful emotions in me, mostly shame, so I am not there yet. Somehow, I need to do this in a way that makes it the least painful for me as possible. At the moment there is not a lot more pain that I am able to cope with. For me this is looking after myself. I used to disregard my own needs and feelings to see to his needs. And I have done that for such a long time, not only with him, that just voicing me needs, sometimes even to myself, triggers shame.

Thanks for understanding

[mitti]

Hi SB,

OK, not sure exactly what you are trying to tell me but I will try to respond.

You are reminding me that this is the undecided board. I started this thread on this board because regarding my first question I had yet again become undecided. Since then things have changed but the discussion has continued, which happens quite frequently.Should I not have responded to the new posts in the thread regarding what happened? Should the thread be moved? I feel moving the discussion to a new board is not really my responsibility though.

- you posted in undecided board which indicates you are unsure if you want a relationship with this man.

I moved from posting on the leaving board to the undecided because of his ambiguous response to my initial text.

I left the r/s not because of his general BPD behavior. I had told him I understood his difficulties, that I would support him through T and I did. I left him because of one boundary where we couldn't agree, that had to do with the past. We both know this. When he responded out of the ordinary to the text it awoke some hope in me. I discussed this with my T. I wasn't sure about wanting to rekindle a r/s with him, partly because I knew that his erratic and destructive behavior would come back, partly because I felt I had come so far. I also wanted to keep my hopes realistic and as I knew nothing of him for the past 4 months it didn't feel realistic. But of course, I still love him. What I was sure I wanted was to meet him again, to let him know of my future plans (has to do with the shame I feel and not reconciliation) and see how he would feel after meeting me (having to do with being unsure how I would feel also, whether I might want to try again – I miss him).

So initially when I text him I wanted to give back the book and inform him of my future plans, which would help me with the shame I felt, not about returning the book, but about what he possibly might infer from my returning the book. My wanting him back was dependent on whether he did also, again due to shame - the shame of wanting somebody who doesn't want me. Anyway, I have explained this in some depth in an earlier response to you in this thread.

- you texted "do you want your book back"... . no other context

Basically yes, but I am sure he could have read lots of things into that. I was sure he would read any communication on my part as my chasing him, so I deliberately kept it brief. To avoid triggering my shame.

- you wondered what his answer, "absolutely" meant ... . I think we all can agree this means yes.

It does mean yes, but is ambiguous in that it doesn't provide me with any info as to how. MCC503764 described exactly how it seemed to me, and to our T and to the two friends I told about this.

At first glance, this acknowleges that he has received your text and he wants the item returned.  However, he is playing with your mind because by "one-wording" you with his response, it forces you into the position of having to force the conversation by asking for more detail!

Like I have stated before, I expected for him to tell me to drop it in the mail or through the mail box. Our T, who knows him quite well after almost a year together in T with her, said that had the book been the only issue for him, and he had no wish to interact with me, he would either have suggested how to return it, making it as easy as possible for me, or he would have asked the same question I sent him in the second text “how do we do this?”

But with just “absolutely” he is making sure to keep the interaction with me going, and trying to make me reveal my intentions before he does. This is our Ts perception. Perhaps like me, he would have been unsure until he knew what I wanted. The T also said that it would be quite understandable given that I had mentioned to a friend of his only a few weeks before that there was no chance at reconciliation with him. My second text to him was the Ts advice, verbatim. At no point did she feel I was playing a game with him. She specializes in DBT, schema and a lot of her patients have a BPD diagnosis.

All of the above is/was obviously important to me as I was undecided. I was trying to understand what might be below the surface to make a decision about what I wanted and what to do next. It was his next response that made no sense to me. Unfortunately, my T is away and I cannot ask her.

- you want to return the book on your own time

Not sure what you mean... .   not really on my own time. It's not my intention to drag this out. What is important to me is that he sees I am no longer making an effort for him, when he won't treat me with respect. He could arrange with me tomorrow to get his book and he would get it. But he will have to come around or send somebody when it is convenient for me to be home.

- your feelings are hurt because he has a new girlfriend and you feel he is purposely trying to hurt you.

Yes, of course it hurts to hear he has somebody new in his life - he is the love of my life. But it is the telling me about it that reveals he is deliberately trying to hurt me.

When he has me painted black he always refuses to tell me anything about his life and he gets angry if I give him any info about my life. Now he gives me info that is completely irrelevant to the issue about the book seemingly only to have me know that he has met somebody else. I doubt he is telling me this because he feels I am chasing him because after this breakup I have behaved totally different to any other time, I actually don't think he has felt that I have even been regretting the breakup. And if he thought this was an attempt to get back together, why not sort out the book issue in his first text response, if that was what he wanted and then be done with me. I would like to understand why he wrote about her. Some of my friends didn't even think he was telling the truth about the new woman in his life, idk.

You asked me further up why it was that I wanted to return it now when I was at my lowest. I had wanted to return it long ago but as I have explained I didn't want him to think it was an attempt to have contact with him. Because I was thrown into a state of panic previous times when he would just cut me out of his life and tried to still communicate, it triggers really bad shame in me. So I couldn't figure out a way this could be done without my feeling so bad.

Do you feel you have enough feedback to choose a path away from undecided board to either staying or leaving?

I don't know. I still want to understand what might be at the core of his responses to me. That may be a way for me to hold on, idk, the day after his first response as they day progressed it was as if I felt I was back in his life somehow. At the same time I am trying to move on, planning my move and wanting to meet somebody else. I don't know, perhaps I am still undecided.