D8's phone call with BPDm

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

My SO's D8 called her uBPDm last night, got D8 all worked up. There were a few things that transpired... .

1) BM was asking SO to bring D8 to her work for lunch and the afternoon. He said no way, BM can get D8 back Monday like the 'plan'. He was concerned that if he took D8 to BM for the afternoon then he wouldn't get her for the weekend and especially Father's Day (whatever could make him fear that, her threats of never letting him see his daughter again? Gee, I dunno). So BM talks to D8 all about how she wants D8 to visit at work and "don't you want to see mommy?" and has D8 ask SO if she can. SO says no. D8 says "daddy won't let me". BM says "ask daddy why he won't let you" and "daddy is mean". D8 was complaining about this for a bit after the phone call. We told her that the schedule was agreed upon and if we change it then D8 will probably not get to spend the weekend with us. "Mom said she'll give me back". "Mom says a lot of things". When we talked it out she didn't bring it up again, so I guess she wasn't too upset over it. I don't think we handled it in the most diplomatic of ways, but D8 knows her mom is inconsistent (she says mom lies a lot) so I think maybe she got it?

2) BM tells D8 "I want to talk to daddy, I want to ask him if he wants the cat" (SO was the one to adopt the cat and BM wouldn't originally give it to him when he moved out). SO asks D8 to ask BM if she wants to give him the cat. BM's response is ":)oes daddy want the cat?". That was odd to me, it sounded like she was trying to tie him to her via the cat (either a control tie or an emotional tie). SO says "I don't want to talk to her, tell her to e-mail the request to me" which got translated by D8 to ":)addy doesn't want the cat". At this point D8 was sitting next to us and I could clearly hear the whole conversation. BM's voice cracked. She got really upset (I guess triggering the feelings of abandoment again?) and said ":)addy is a butthead. Daddy is miserable and wants everyone else to be miserable." and repeated those a few times. I couldn't help but laugh at the miserable part, because it was so clearly projection. Afterwards I told D8 that I didn't think it was nice of mommy to say mean things about daddy, did she think so? no she didn't. I asked her how she felt when mommy said those things and she said "embarassed". Such a great "big girl" response of expressing her feeling, I'm so proud of her. 

3) BM was sugery sweet on the phone. "I miss you SO much" "It has been way too long since I've seen you, don't you think so?" ":)on't you wish you were back home with me, baby girl?" and a bunch of other comments like that. I could tell that the rare niceness really had an effect on D8, because she wanted to be back with her mom badly at that moment. Ugh, it just reeked of PA manipulation. 

[Thunderstruck]

My SO's D8 called her uBPDm last night, got D8 all worked up. There were a few things that transpired... .

1) BM was asking SO to bring D8 to her work for lunch and the afternoon. He said no way, BM can get D8 back Monday like the 'plan'. He was concerned that if he took D8 to BM for the afternoon then he wouldn't get her for the weekend and especially Father's Day (whatever could make him fear that, her threats of never letting him see his daughter again? Gee, I dunno). So BM talks to D8 all about how she wants D8 to visit at work and "don't you want to see mommy?" and has D8 ask SO if she can. SO says no. D8 says "daddy won't let me". BM says "ask daddy why he won't let you" and "daddy is mean". D8 was complaining about this for a bit after the phone call. We told her that the schedule was agreed upon and if we change it then D8 will probably not get to spend the weekend with us. "Mom said she'll give me back". "Mom says a lot of things". When we talked it out she didn't bring it up again, so I guess she wasn't too upset over it. I don't think we handled it in the most diplomatic of ways, but D8 knows her mom is inconsistent (she says mom lies a lot) so I think maybe she got it?

2) BM tells D8 "I want to talk to daddy, I want to ask him if he wants the cat" (SO was the one to adopt the cat and BM wouldn't originally give it to him when he moved out). SO asks D8 to ask BM if she wants to give him the cat. BM's response is ":)oes daddy want the cat?". That was odd to me, it sounded like she was trying to tie him to her via the cat (either a control tie or an emotional tie). SO says "I don't want to talk to her, tell her to e-mail the request to me" which got translated by D8 to ":)addy doesn't want the cat". At this point D8 was sitting next to us and I could clearly hear the whole conversation. BM's voice cracked. She got really upset (I guess triggering the feelings of abandoment again?) and said ":)addy is a butthead. Daddy is miserable and wants everyone else to be miserable." and repeated those a few times. I couldn't help but laugh at the miserable part, because it was so clearly projection. Afterwards I told D8 that I didn't think it was nice of mommy to say mean things about daddy, did she think so? no she didn't. I asked her how she felt when mommy said those things and she said "embarassed". Such a great "big girl" response of expressing her feeling, I'm so proud of her. 

3) BM was sugery sweet on the phone. "I miss you SO much" "It has been way too long since I've seen you, don't you think so?" ":)on't you wish you were back home with me, baby girl?" and a bunch of other comments like that. I could tell that the rare niceness really had an effect on D8, because she wanted to be back with her mom badly at that moment. Ugh, it just reeked of PA manipulation. 

[Matt]

From:  SO

To:  BM

cc:  SO's lawyer

The phone call between D8 and you yesterday evening was not good.  We will not repeat that.

When you talk with D8 by phone, do not raise issues with her that should be worked out between you and me.  Specifically, do not raise schedule issues with her - those are for you and me to work out.  :)o not ask her to pass messages to me or ask me for decisions about issues you and I should work out.

If there is another call like the one yesterday, there will be no more phone contact between you and D8 while D8 is with me.

Here is the schedule as I understand our agreeement:

 :)8 with me through noon Sunday 7/16;  I will drop her off at your place then.

 :)8 with you through noon Sunday 7/23;  I will pick her up at your place then.

 Exchange every Sunday at noon after that at your place.

Please let me know by e-mail if this is correct.

Regarding the cat, I can pick up the cat this Sunday 7/16 at noon and she will live with us from then on.  [Or:  We do not want the cat.]

If she does not respond, stating clear agreement to the schedule, end communication with her and just focus on D8.  Work out the future through the legal process.

This is about bounaries.  By setting and maintaining them, you'll make yourself a little less crazy, and you'll show D8 how it's done.

[Thunderstruck]

This is about bounaries.  By setting and maintaining them, you'll make yourself a little less crazy, and you'll show D8 how it's done.

I like this. Last night's phone call was so different from Tuesday night when D8 was lecturing mom and "pushing back". Her mom switched her tone of voice to being all sweet and D8 ate it right up. I'm glad her mom was being nice, but the fact that it was with the intention of manipulation makes me want to blow a gasket.

[DreamGirl]

Experts actually suggest that you not listen in on conversations with the other parent.

Kids have the right to talk to their other parent privately - and whenever they want.

Even if the other parent is acting like a spoiled 12 year old by calling Dad names or saying how much they miss the child... . you should adhere to this idealogy (even when the other parent does not).  

My Stepdaughters are always allowed to talk to their mom, by themselves, whenever they want to. It really doesn't matter what their Mama says because she could tell them the same stuff while on her parenting time.

Afterwards I told D8 that I didn't think it was nice of mommy to say mean things about daddy, did she think so? no she didn't. I asked her how she felt when mommy said those things and she said "embarassed". Such a great "big girl" response of expressing her feeling, I'm so proud of her.  

You're right, it's not nice of her.

You're also participating in the Parental Alienation. You're saying that her mom is being "not nice" and asking her to participate in your feelings about it. You're reacting by disparaging mom by talking about her mom's assessments and encouraging her to pick sides. This can actually drive an alienated child towards the other parent.

Warshak (author of Divorce poison) suggests that you don't defend the statements:

It’s also important to not badmouth the other parents and to not give the kids the third degree.

Don’t overreact, don’t allow your contact to be interrupted, and hang in there. If the child expresses distorted views of you, provide the information to help clarify issues when appropriate. You’ll need to exercise great patience if the other parent is alienating.

[Matt]

When my D16 was 8, she was probably smarter about communication and more perceptive about people than most adult guys I know - certainly more perceptive than I am!

So with some subtle coaching maybe this is a good learning opportunity for your D8 - helping her to see what's happening, without too blatantly trashing Mom.  Focus on Mom's behaviors and D8's choices... .

Richard Warshak's ":)ivorce Poison" which DG mentions - it's great for situations exactly like this.  www.amazon.com/Divorce-Poison-New-Updated-Bad-mouthing/dp/0061863262/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1371240541&sr=1-1&keywords=divorce+poison

[Thunderstruck]

We didn't mean to listen in (and didn't hear most of it), but D8 came out of her bedroom and into the livingroom and from there we could hear everything I mentioned above. I agree privacy is important, if the situation were reversed I wouldn't want BM hovering over SO's phone conversation with D8 (if she ever allowed one).

All I could think last night was I need to read Divorce Poison. I hate being unprepared when these situations arise. I knew I would make mistakes. :/

We talk pretty often about bullies at school calling D8 names and D8's behavior whenever I hear her calling another kid a name as well. I usually say it's not nice to call people mean names. I guess in my head I'd say that rule should apply whether it's D8, the kids at school, Thunderstruck, SO, BM... . It's never nice. I was trying to be consistent with that theory. Is there a different way to state it?

[Matt]

We didn't mean to listen in (and didn't hear most of it), but D8 came out of her bedroom and into the livingroom and from there we could hear everything I mentioned above. I agree privacy is important, if the situation were reversed I wouldn't want BM hovering over SO's phone conversation with D8 (if she ever allowed one).

All I could think last night was I need to read Divorce Poison. I hate being unprepared when these situations arise. I knew I would make mistakes. :/

We talk pretty often about bullies at school calling D8 names and D8's behavior whenever I hear her calling another kid a name as well. I usually say it's not nice to call people mean names. I guess in my head I'd say that rule should apply whether it's D8, the kids at school, Thunderstruck, SO, BM... . It's never nice. I was trying to be consistent with that theory. Is there a different way to state it?

I think you can separate, in your own mind and in how you say things, the behaviors from the person.  "It's not OK to do such-and-such, because that will have such-and-such a result." - focus on the behavior.  "Your mom can't be trusted." - focus on the person.

At 8, your daughter can connect the dots.  If you talk about a specific behavior, or pattern, and why it's not OK, and if you also are careful to model the right behavior yourselves, she'll get the message, and when BM does that behavior, D8 will be able to see it in the context you've given her, and connect BM's behavior with the results it causes.

When she talks about BM's behavior, you can ask simple questions to help D8 through the logic - "What did she say then?"... . "How did you feel about that?"... . "How did that work out?"... . so D8 will be able to see how her mom's behavior fits into the context you have given her when you talked about specific behaviors (without mentioning BM).

Warshak goes through this much more thoroughly - maybe DG remembers more than I do - I think you'll find his explanation very clear and he gives specific ways to put it to work for you.

[DreamGirl]

***crossed with Matt

It's not nice. You're right.

My perception is that your SD doesn't think it's nice either.

So why do you need to address it with her? Perhaps address it with Mom? Experts say to address the other parent that both of you are not to disparage the other parent in front of the child. If it continues, then get a third party intervention (like a therapist or parenting coordinator).

If it were me - and I felt I needed to intervene to clear it up (like Warshak suggested), I would just say: "I know Mommy thinks your Dad is a [butthead]. What do you think?"

And when she says that she doesn't think he's a butthead or that sometimes she does think he's a butthead... . I'd let her lead the way in the conversation. (It's so hard to do in the moment - I know from experience!)

Teach the value that we are all allowed our own feelings - not so much the value that Mom shouldn't call Dad names (you really just can't control that). You can teach that particular value by not calling her mom names.

I'd also tell her that parents fight and get mad at each other... . and that's OK. She shouldn't worry her pretty little head about it.

I've told my own stepdaughters that I understand that their Mama gets mad sometimes and I don't take it personally when she calls me names because I don't think she always means it (she goes back and forth with me).

My stepdaughters were the ones who eventually told her to knock it off - and said that they didn't mind if she hated me, they just didn't want to hear about it anymore.

Kids are pretty resilient little creatures who don't want to be caught in a loyalty bind - their best defense is to know from the healthy parent that they don't have to be. To know that they don't have to defend the other parent... . or us with that parent.