Coparenting and Distrust?

[bcomingme]

How do you coparent with someone you don't trust. I catch my ex BPD husband in lies so often. For example, my daughter was sponsored by members of his family to go to camp this summer and he kept saying they hadn't paid yet. The money was overdue and I kept asking for extensions. Then today my daughter tells me that three members of his family HAD already paid and she has seen them. I texted and just said "hey, why don't we go ahead and turn it what we have for camp. I know a few of your family have turned in their money." (trying to be less judgmental)... . He said "well I'll turn in 150 of it." I asked him why he hadn't mentioned that they had paid when we had talked often about needing to pay. His message "WHY DO YOU ALWAYS GO STRAIGHT TO ACCUSING ME OF BEING DISHONEST? SERIOUSLY! It just slipped my mind." I have 18 years experience with his dishonestly especially about money. I know we're supposed to coparent with trust and respect but how do you do that when you continually catch them in lies?

[marbleloser]

I just assume everything is a lie,until I prove otherwise.Seems to work for me. 

[Ishenuts]

It is soo frustrating! And the rightious indignation when we catch them!

My uNPDexH and I are trying to resolve issues with the parenting plan via a parental coordinator. At our first session, she states, "We will be working together to gain trust and to act in the best interest of the children" I knew at that moment that it will be a waste of my time. I don't trust him, and I will NEVER trust him. He lies about everything, and it's even worse when he feels he has to impress someone. My head spins. Then the shaming and blaming, "If you aren't willing to work on this, you can't really care about the children". Of course, 'working on this', in his mind, is agreeing to all of his demands, and being threatened with going back to court.

It is so distressing to realize I will be dealing with this f#$@er for 7 1/2 more years! AGHHH!

[Matt]

How old are the kids?

-

What is the custody situation?

Mine are S15 and D16 (and SD23 and SS35).

I don't try to "co-parent", which means you make decisions together a lot.  Some here talk about "parallel parenting", which means each of you makes the decisions when the kids are with you, and very few decisions are made by both parents together.

For myself, I think in terms of "parenting", not "co-" or "parallel".  I rarely communicate with my ex, except about schedule details;  even those I now let the kids take the lead on most of the time.

A big part of making this work is to communicate as little as possible - kind of the opposite of what is often advised if both parents are mentally healthy - and always by e-mail except in emergencies - not phone or face-to-face.  Keep the e-mails very simple and no emotions;  ignore any emotions or irrelevant stuff from the other party.

So in this case, I might have said:

I understand that your parents paid $500 of the camp cost, which leaves $300 to be paid.  I will pay $150 tomorrow.  If you pay $150 tomorrow too and that will be enough.

No talk about his behavior because you can't fix it.  No talk about the past.  Nothing vague or abstract like "Let's be more fair."  Just state facts ("I understand that your parents paid $500.", what you will do ("I will pay $150 tomorrow.) and you can suggest what he can do, but try not to phrase it as an order or say "should".

[bcomingme]

Matt that is an excellent idea... . I guess I do get emotional and angry and let it get the best of me. It seems most of out issues are monetary. We will agree to split expenses and he never comes through on his end. He makes the girls feel guilty that he "never has enough money" although he makes triple what I make! He has always been inconsistent with money and made poor financial decisions. Even though we have 50/50 parenting he basically controls everything they do and where they go. They are 15 and 17 year old girls but they are very much swayed by him. He tells me what they are doing and when. I am very powerless because they are bonded to him in a very strange way. When they are with me they look at their watch and keep saying "I better get home" etc. My oldest has gotten a job and I know she has been buying groceries, buying her gas and his, cleaning the house like a wife etc. Its so frustrating. If I question him at all I get rage. When I asked why my daughter was helping him with groceries he turned it around on me of course that I was attacking him constantly, didnt trust his parenting, pushing him to the brink of a nervous breakdown etc. And I ended up apologizing! We've only been separated for five months so its still so new... .

[Matt]

I think this is called "parentification" or something like that - the child becomes the parent and takes care of the adult.  I have that too, with my stepdaughter (23) and my daughter (16) - they both cover up things for their mom and support her more than she supports them.

I think it's common with BPD.  If I remember right, it's discussed in both "Stop Walking On Eggshells" and "Understanding The Borderline Mother" - two very good books, though I wish there was also a "Father" version of UTBM.

I think by spending more time here on this board - reading other members' stuff and talking more about your own - you'll get good ideas about how to deal with these issues.  Not easy - you can't just tell the kids "the truth" and expect them to snap out of it... .

[bcomingme]

Its so hard... . today my d15 said "Im worried about dad, he's emotionally overeating and his diabetes is bad again... . its everytime you fight with him." I asked her what she meant. And I guess he tells her every time we disagree on something. So to my girls "I" am causing his stress and his overeating etc. What they don't see is that he has emotional issues before all this. Any time I question him at all I am "fighting."

[Matt]

I would suggest going with the kids to family counseling - that is, you and the kids (not their dad).

I found a good counselor by first talking with the school counselor - my kids were 8 and 10 at the time.  The school counselor knew them very well - much better than I assumed - and was eager to help.  She suggested her predecessor, who had left the school to go into private practice.  I made an appointment and talked with her one-on-one and was confident she could help, so I took the kids regularly for a few years, til we moved.

Not a "solution" to a "problem" maybe - you don't want to get into an argument about whether there is a "problem" and exactly what it is.  So present it to the kids as a resource for them.  "You guys are dealing with difficult stuff and it will help you to have a professional to talk to about whatever you want."  Make sure you all understand the rules about confidentiality - what the counselor will and won't share with you.  Also, let the kids decide if and when and what to tell their dad - don't insist that they keep secrets from him.

[martillo]

Its so hard... . today my d15 said "Im worried about dad, he's emotionally overeating and his diabetes is bad again... . its everytime you fight with him." I asked her what she meant. And I guess he tells her every time we disagree on something. So to my girls "I" am causing his stress and his overeating etc. What they don't see is that he has emotional issues before all this. Any time I question him at all I am "fighting."

I know this is the "after the split" parenting group, and I am still "staying" - my H is also diabetic and is very non-compliant w his meds, diet, exercise... . also alcoholic.  In school, at home, at church... . almost everywhere my kids (DS20, DS17, DS13, DD10) have been in a "learning" environment, they have been taught that life is about choices.  H's meds are available (I get his prescriptions and put his meds in a weekly pill sorter); I cook mostly healthy meals (not gonna lie - we do sometimes have fish sticks and tater tots) and we all (me and all 4 kids) encourage him to exercise - "come with us while we go for a walk; let's go swimming at the Y... . "  I am not sure exactly how to phrase it for your daughter, but maybe something like, "Wow, it's too bad he is not taking care of his eating and diabetes." and move on to another subject because ultimately, your exH is making the "choice" to be non-compliant - no matter the source. 

After a recent blowup, (DS20 wanted to commit his dad - nothing commit-able happened) I started the 4 kids with a family therapist.  I told them and the therapist that I wanted them to have someone who wasn't me and wasn't their dad to talk to about our family "issues."  It only started recently, but they already seem "wiser." 

[bcomingme]

My d15 does go to weekly counseling and it really seems to help. My older daughter thinks its stupid... . I wish she would go as well. They don't realize what I've really been through for the past 18 years because alot of it has been hidden from them and buffered. They see him with rose colored glasses most of the time or listen as he blames his boss, parents, pastor, neighbors for all the bad things in his life. I hope they don't adopt that outlook on life.

[k997s]

Matt,

Do you have any details about how to spell out a parallel parenting plan ?

There are plenty of co-parent plans i could find.

Any thing you found especially important to add to the language ?

Thanks

K

How old are the kids?

-

What is the custody situation?

Mine are S15 and D16 (and SD23 and SS35).

I don't try to "co-parent", which means you make decisions together a lot.  Some here talk about "parallel parenting", which means each of you makes the decisions when the kids are with you, and very few decisions are made by both parents together.

For myself, I think in terms of "parenting", not "co-" or "parallel".  I rarely communicate with my ex, except about schedule details;  even those I now let the kids take the lead on most of the time.

A big part of making this work is to communicate as little as possible - kind of the opposite of what is often advised if both parents are mentally healthy - and always by e-mail except in emergencies - not phone or face-to-face.  Keep the e-mails very simple and no emotions;  ignore any emotions or irrelevant stuff from the other party.

So in this case, I might have said:

I understand that your parents paid $500 of the camp cost, which leaves $300 to be paid.  I will pay $150 tomorrow.  If you pay $150 tomorrow too and that will be enough.

No talk about his behavior because you can't fix it.  No talk about the past.  Nothing vague or abstract like "Let's be more fair."  Just state facts ("I understand that your parents paid $500.", what you will do ("I will pay $150 tomorrow.) and you can suggest what he can do, but try not to phrase it as an order or say "should".

[Matt]

The way we did it was concentrate on a detailed schedule - where and when exchanges would be:

* First, how will it be most weeks, like "Father will have kids from noon Sunday through noon Thursday, and Mother from noon Thursday through noon Sunday.  Exchanges will be at Mother's home."  Make sure the day and time of each exchange is clear, and exactly where.

* Then say how summer will work:  "From the last day of school til the first day of the new school year, Child will be with Father for fourteen days, from noon the first Sunday through noon fourteen days later;  then with Mother til noon fourteen days after that;  exchanges at Mother's home."

* Then say how vacations will be handled:  "Each parent can choose a one-week period which does not include any school days for vacation with Child, informing the other parent at least 30 days in advance."

* Then holidays:  "Even-numbered years Child will be with Mother on Mother's Day from noon til noon the following day;  Easter Sunday from noon til noon the following day;  and Christmas Eve from noon til noon Christmas Day;  and with Father July 4th from noon til noon the following day and Christmas Day from noon til noon the following day.  Odd-numbered years will be the reverse."

Usually holidays trump vacations, vacations trump the summer schedule, and the summer schedule trumps the regular schedule.  Your lawyer can tell you if it works differently in your state.

As far as the rules, we didn't specify them, but the understanding was, when the kids are with me I make the decisions and when they're with their mom she makes the decisions.

Exceptions are what's covered by "legal custody" which is different from "residential custody".  Legal custody we have shared - that's common - which means big decisions, we have to agree on, or get the court involved:  major medical, religion, school, relocation.  If I want the child to have an operation, or to go to a different school, or if I want to move with them to another city, those are all decisions we should agree on (in writing) or get the court involved.  Religion is a little fuzzier - both parents can take the kids to their church when the kids are with them, but if it became a big issue somehow the court might have to be involved.

Your lawyer may have a worksheet used by the court where you live, or you could go to the courthouse and ask if they have something like that.

Or look online (or maybe somebody here, but not me) for a worksheet.

Or you could just write it all out as bullet-points - not legalistic language - and discuss with the other party - get agreement - and then have a lawyer put it into proper language.

The key issue is usually the schedule and all the details around it.  The second-biggest problem is often phone calls - when can each parent call the kids, when they're with the other parent?  I managed to dodge that bullet - never fought over it and never had it detailed in the court order - but many parents here find that the other parent will abuse the privilege - call too often, or say things that get the kids upset... .