They want you back, but not really...

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

This has a little to do with the kids only because they are seeing it and having to figure it out.  One thing I have been struck with since I started dating my DH is how his BPD ex has been about our relationship.  When we first were together, she was already remarried (and had been for years), but when I came around, she started dedicating songs to him, lamenting the end of their relationship.  A year later she tells the kids and her family that they were going to get back together (this was AFTER we had married)--she was moving back into town to get back with  him.  We had a birthday celebration where she saw us together and then another song is sent lamenting the demise of their relationship (Adele's "Someone Like You".

I don't really think she wants him back, but these kinds of behaviors make me wonder if she has moments when she does, even after all of these years.  It is hard for me to understand--when I divorced, I was very done, even when my ex was with someone else.

And when the kids come to you saying, "Mom says that my dad is going to want her back now because she lis skinny" and other such delusional thinking, how do you respond?

[sanemom]

This has a little to do with the kids only because they are seeing it and having to figure it out.  One thing I have been struck with since I started dating my DH is how his BPD ex has been about our relationship.  When we first were together, she was already remarried (and had been for years), but when I came around, she started dedicating songs to him, lamenting the end of their relationship.  A year later she tells the kids and her family that they were going to get back together (this was AFTER we had married)--she was moving back into town to get back with  him.  We had a birthday celebration where she saw us together and then another song is sent lamenting the demise of their relationship (Adele's "Someone Like You".

I don't really think she wants him back, but these kinds of behaviors make me wonder if she has moments when she does, even after all of these years.  It is hard for me to understand--when I divorced, I was very done, even when my ex was with someone else.

And when the kids come to you saying, "Mom says that my dad is going to want her back now because she lis skinny" and other such delusional thinking, how do you respond?

[GaGrl]

My DH definitely saw some of the same strange behavior on the part of his ex, as soon as I came into his life.

Mind you, they had lived separately for 14 years by the point DH and I reconnected (we had known each other as teens, 35 years previously, prior to their marriage).  She was living with her boyfriend of 5 years, households completely separated, finances completely separated, children all adults, no alimony or child support entanglements.

Suddenly, she was stopping by his house, in which they had raised their children, and putting out old portraits of the two of them taken during their engagement and early years of marriage, plus wanting to stay over and cook for him (she's a fabulous Thai cook).  She made it a point to tell the adult children that, of course, she could have him back if she wanted (to which the children replied, "When hell freezes over, Mom."  Her perspective was skewed, or she was weaving a different story for herself than anyone else was seeing.

This went on about 5-6 months and eventually tapered off after our wedding.

One factor that is a bit different with DH and his ex is that (as incessantly unfaithful as she was throughout the marriage), she views DH in an almost parental manner, and he has been placed on a pedestal of sorts for much of their lives.  She still attempts to call him for advice, although he's given the directive that calls be only about matters pertaining to the children that he actually can influence, not just to bit*h about them.


I just found the re-writing of their history to be more than a bit weird.

[mamachelle]

Hi sanemom,

When we first got together my H's exW bought a tiny, pretty ugly,  little house at the height of the housing bubble in an area where her boyfriend lived under her mother's name. Not in the kids current city. Pretty bad school district. Near the same BF she had left my H for... .

She said to my H (we were engaged)-- well now don't you want to get back together with me, since I have a house? She was dead serious I think.

I think it's just delusional behavior. If a kid said what your Step kids said about getting back together-- to me I would just say,

"oh really, hmmm, what do you think?"

I think the kids know it's crazy talk and they just want either a reaction if they are feeling a bit   or an affirmation from you that this is not serious.

There are times where I contradict the craziness, like when BPDmom told my SS that drinking coffee would stunt his growth-- and being aspergerer's it concerned him because he liked coffee-- but he also questioned it because it was not a fact-- and I said flat out, No- SSthen10 and tallest kid in his class-- you really don't have to worry about that. Mom just doesn't want you drinking coffee I bet. He understood that explanation.

mamachelle

[DreamGirl]

I think we all have war stories. My stepkids' Mama called my husband and me on my wedding day crying. It was really emotional for her to see the father of her children get remarried. She was actually very sad... . and thru her tears said, "I will always love you... . " to him and "I wouldn't want it to be anyone else... . " to me. 

Borderline Personality Disorder is a mood disorder - with the core issues stemming from the inablity to regulate emotions.

My ex-husband got remarried recently and we've been divorced for over 10 years. I am also very happily remarried to a wonderful man. My ex getting married to his very lovely new wife (and subsequently having a child) invoked some emotions that I truly had no control over - a little jealousy, mourning, happiness, insecurity, etc.

A pwBPD experiences these same kind of emotions. It's actually pretty normal to have emotions when an ex marries. We love more then once in this life and it's so very human to just feel - and not so human to feel nothing at all.

Just days before she was to married to someone else, my husband's ex said that she wished their marriage would have worked. That's what she felt in that moment and she just struggles in boundaries so much... . and where two days earlier, I don't think she even liked being in the same room as my husband. It's really not so much delusional as it is just not having the skills to regulate and filter the words that hit the air before she has time to think about what she is actually saying.

I try to remember that - that the good feelings towards my husband are just as intense as the bad feelings.  The perceived love is just as monumental as the perceived hate. That's part of her disorder.

And when the kids come to you saying, "Mom says that my dad is going to want her back now because she lis skinny" and other such delusional thinking, how do you respond?

 

I'd say - "Well that's an interesting idea. Might be tough since they're both remarried! What do you want for lunch?"


~DreamGirl

[GaGrl]

The wedding day itself is definitely a trigger.  DH's ex tried to show up at my house (site of the small wedding and reception) at the time the reception would have been in full swing (excuse -- to pick up the daughter-in-law).  I had to tell DH that I didn't care how he did it or what he said, but he needed to make sure his ex didn't show up on my wedding day.  He did... . but years of conditioning really had him thinking it was OK for the doorbell to ring and have his ex walk in on our wedding reception.

[sanemom]

Borderline Personality Disorder is a mood disorder - with the core issues stemming from the inablity to regulate emotions.

My ex-husband got remarried recently and we've been divorced for over 10 years. I am also very happily remarried to a wonderful man. My ex getting married to his very lovely new wife (and subsequently having a child) invoked some emotions that I truly had no control over - a little jealousy, mourning, happiness, insecurity, etc.

A pwBPD experiences these same kind of emotions. It's actually pretty normal to have emotions when an ex marries. We love more then once in this life and it's so very human to just feel - and not so human to feel nothing at all.

I know you are probably right, DG, but then I wonder if I am not human.  LOL  Seriously, when I FINALLY gave up on my marriage, I was very done.  I was happy for my ex to move on with his life; I truly wish him well.  The only thing I remember feeling was hoping he would be better to her than he could be to me.  I want him to be happy.  But him moving on was as if I had put a piece of furniture in the street that I didn't want anymore and someone else came to pick it up--hope they find some use for it.  That sounds cold, doesn't it?  I don't think I am cold towards him though.  I will always care about my ex... . just don't want to live with him.

I could humanly expect the remarriage to be a trigger, but it was weird to see how BPD mom moved back into town long after the remarriage and was again telling the kids she was getting him back.  I didn't see anything new going on then to trigger that, at least not on our end.  But now that I think about it, it was after her failed 2 month marriage to someone else that she started doing that.  And in that case, that makes some sense in terms of how you were saying it, DG. 

It has always felt like she just wanted her exes on a string... . and when she lost control/power over DH, she hated it.

[DreamGirl]

I could humanly expect the remarriage to be a trigger, but it was weird to see how BPD mom moved back into town long after the remarriage and was again telling the kids she was getting him back.  I didn't see anything new going on then to trigger that, at least not on our end.  But now that I think about it, it was after her failed 2 month marriage to someone else that she started doing that.  And in that case, that makes some sense in terms of how you were saying it, DG.

Pinpointing "triggers" can be good - for the purpose of our own "preparation".

Triggers (any circumstance that causes a strong, intense emotional reaction) aren't universal to every single pwBPD... . the same way that a person suffering from PTSD is going to have different triggers based on the trauma (war veteran is going to be different then a rape victim).

I have a (PTSD) trigger when someone stands directly behind me while I'm sitting in a chair (watching tv, at my computer desk, at the dinner table) and it is a completely irrational want-to-punch-you-in-the-face reaction.  It's not personal. It's not something that is resolved with anyone's help but my own breathing techniques and mindfulness.    

So I wouldn't assume too much as to why, who, where, and what - just paying attention to the reaction. i.e. My stepkid's Mama has a really hard time at the beginning of every school year (for whatever reason) so I tend to steer clear of her at all costs.

It's good to be aware but I often chaulk up highly emotional responses to her just being overwhelmed in that moment for whatever reason.

Unless of course you want to work on communication using validation  with her (which can help ease the strain in a conversation)- which I know that you are not really interested in.

It has always felt like she just wanted her exes on a string... . and when she lost control/power over DH, she hated it.

Again, I wouldn't assume too much... . as far as personalizing it.

She's compensating for a low self-worth and seeks outside validation in different forms. It may just be as simple as her wanting to believe that she's lovable is all.

[mamachelle]

I could humanly expect the remarriage to be a trigger, but it was weird to see how BPD mom moved back into town long after the remarriage and was again telling the kids she was getting him back. 

I think this is a very good discussion. My concern is also for the kids here. While we as Non adults- can understand the emotions and sort of frame or rationalize the behavior and steer clear of it and the triggers... .

our step kids are really the ones on the receiving end... . so the lack of filter in the parent with BPD in expressing emotions, then underlying this is the persistent and possibly intermittent belief on the part of the other parent that they can get the old spouse back.

That I believe is something that is delusional and is going to affect the kids differently depending on where they are at.

It is not something we can control, but if mom keeps saying this stuff to her kids well after the remarriage, it is going to affect them.

Does it need to be somehow counter acted by the non parent or step parent or both in discussion?

That I don't know really.

I'm just throwing this out there- but I think each time this happens and the kids tell us this kind of stuff which really is not a healthy reality, I think it does need to be considered for a possible therapy session at least if the child is concerned or agitated by it.

[DreamGirl]

My stepdaughters were told they were going to the beach this summer... .

That oldest stepdaughter was once promised a horse... .

The middle one she was going to give her a car... .

They've all learned not to place too much value on what she is (or is not) going to do. She has big ideas and kinda sucks at follow thrus - I think they were all about 5 years old when they caught on.  

We can't control the other parent and their promises - we can control our own reactions. If we don't get upset and feed any of the drama, it's a good example to be set. There is a certain pattern of "delusional thinking" that can occur when in an emotionally manic state (saying that mom and dad are getting back together) and so part of what we teach the kids is that mom is allowed her feelings (that she may want to be back with Dad) and Dad is allowed his feelings (that he's already remarried and in a relationship).

She's allowed her own values when it comes to relationships and we're allowed our own values when it comes to relationships - the kids can be each taught both (or as you say healthy v. unhealthy). Even in toxic environments, if there is a core set of values that make sense to them (like staying faithful in a marriage) the kids will pick up on that.  We don't have to always be explaining it all the time or pointing out intentions or contradictions. There are great lessons to be learned in how a kid doesn't want to live when you have a parent who is providing that kind of an example. There's empowerment in letting it play out and letting them process the emotions of disappointment/agitation.

My stepdaughters have vocalized that they are so glad their parents aren't together and that mom shouldn't wish they were. They fight way too much.        

[sanemom]

My stepdaughters were told they were going to the beach this summer... .

That oldest stepdaughter was once promised a horse... .

The middle one she was going to give her a car... .

They've all learned not to place too much value on what she is (or is not) going to do. She has big ideas and kinda sucks at follow thrus - I think they were all about 5 years old when they caught on.  

I think you are fortunate in this... . two of our skids STILL hang on to every empty promise she makes for them, and it is very hard to watch.  Five months ago DSD, on her 16th birthday, was so excited that she was going to start driver's ed--that was her birthday present from her BPD mom.  We tried to be excited with her, but it was difficult because we knew that BPD mom probably did not buy her that.  Sure enough, months later, DSD is still waiting while her younger siblings who live with us are starting Driver's Ed for real. 

I could give example after example that these teens believe... . they believe her delusional thinking... . they believe her when she says she bought a $5 painting at a garage sale and is going to sell it for $15k... . they believe her when she promises them a big trip... . and the list goes on and on.  And the only one who sometimes questions is 12... . the 15 and 16 year old buy her BS hook, line, and sinker.

It is truly sad to see these kids have their hopes up so high and get disappointed again and again... .

[DreamGirl]

I don't think it's fortunate so much as it is teaching them acceptance... . and non-attachment. 

They don't get disappointed because they aren't attached to their mama's promises. They hope for the best, know that intentions are good (because they really are), and are OK if it doesn't work out. 

And we also work really hard on our own follow-thrus. 

It is truly sad to see these kids have their hopes up so high and get disappointed again and again... .

Why do you think they can't accept this about her?

[sanemom]

It is truly sad to see these kids have their hopes up so high and get disappointed again and again... .

Why do you think they can't accept this about her?

That's the million dollar question really, isn't it?  And I am not sure of the answer.

One thing I was thinking MAY be the reason for DSD16 is that she changed her entire life based on believing these empty promises... . she chose to move in with BPD mom believing all these things would happen, left a stable life with lots of fun for a lonely chaotic life with her mom.  Maybe she has to hang on to that belief so she doesn't have to face that she was fooled?

I know DH altered the course of his life based on the belief that DSD was biologically his--he married BPD mom because she swore up and down that DSD was his.  When DH started to have some doubts because of DSD's appearance, he quickly banished them and went back into denial, probably because he could not face the fact that his life then was based on a lie. 

[DreamGirl]

One thing I was thinking MAY be the reason for DSD16 is that she changed her entire life based on believing these empty promises... . she chose to move in with BPD mom believing all these things would happen, left a stable life with lots of fun for a lonely chaotic life with her mom.  Maybe she has to hang on to that belief so she doesn't have to face that she was fooled?

I don't know that a 16yo is properly equipped (has the cognitive ability) to see this "thru the looking glass".

Why do you say that she is lonely? Does she say this?

Does she actually feel fooled? Or does she believe that mom's intentions were good - and then something happened? Do you think her mom fooled her into moving in with her?

[sanemom]

One thing I was thinking MAY be the reason for DSD16 is that she changed her entire life based on believing these empty promises... . she chose to move in with BPD mom believing all these things would happen, left a stable life with lots of fun for a lonely chaotic life with her mom.  Maybe she has to hang on to that belief so she doesn't have to face that she was fooled?

I don't know that a 16yo is properly equipped (has the cognitive ability) to see this "thru the looking glass".

Why do you say that she is lonely? Does she say this?

Does she actually feel fooled? Or does she believe that mom's intentions were good - and then something happened? Do you think her mom fooled her into moving in with her?

Yes, she says she is lonely.  She says she is always bored.  She says she misses her siblings.  She said she gets scared when she is left alone in the apartment.  But she doesn't go beyond that and realize that she can do something about it... .


  I am not sure what she feels--I am certainly not thinking that she is conscious of not wanting to admit these things to herself because she was fooled; I was just thinking that may be something more subconscious.  Do I think she was fooled into moving in with mom?  Yes, but I also think BPD mom fools herself just as much as she fools these kids... . maybe that is why they believe her so easily.

DSD was promised skating lessons when she moved in with mom; soon found out there was not even a skating rink anywhere near that city.  She was promised a big birthday trip shortly after she moved in with mom (a weekend driving trip to see something she has been dying to see); it's been three years and it still hasn't happened.   She was promised that she would be living in this big house--they moved six times since then and are now on food stamps.  She was promised it would be just her and mom--mom has been through three live-in relationships in the past two years.  Maybe she does feel her mom has started with good intentions... . it is hard to say as DSD never says--all we hear is the excitement in her about getting something we know probably won't happen.  I just know she is still waiting for those dance lessons that have been promised to her for three years (this is the third year in a row) and those driving lessons... . and she talks about them like they are happening any day now.

I think BPD mom intermittently comes through on some of the promises... . just enough to keep the kids hanging on believing... .

[DreamGirl]

I think BPD mom intermittently comes through on some of the promises... . just enough to keep the kids hanging on believing... .

Believing... . what exactly? The good in her? That they are loved by their Mama?  

Don't we all kinda do this? Especially when it comes to our parents? There are adults who still struggle in this capacity - coming to grips with the humanity of their parents.

sanemom, I often see a common theme in your posts. You want them to see her the way you see her, you want them to "get it".

But they can't right now. They won't. It's their Mama.  

Their perception is going to be laced with far more emotional attachment then any kind of logical sense. You can not fast forward the process or induce an epiphany. They have to come to grips with it in their own time in their own way and you have to give them lots and lots of room to do it. It's part of what Radical Acceptance is all about - this is their path to have a mom who is mentally ill. It doesn't have to be sad. Or disappointing. Or tragic.

It just is.

[sanemom]

I think BPD mom intermittently comes through on some of the promises... . just enough to keep the kids hanging on believing... .

Believing... . what exactly? The good in her? That they are loved by their Mama?  

sanemom, I often see a common theme in your posts. You want them to see her the way you see her, you want them to "get it".

I don't want them to see her the way that I see her.  I actually don't.  Interestingly, they DO seem to get how unstable she is in her relationships, but I don't care that they get that or not.  There is a lot that I don't care if they get--the ONE thing that I wish that they "got" was that when she promises them something, it may or may not happen.  And the ONLY reason I want them to "get" that is that it hurts watching them fall down in disappointment again and again, basing their decisions on things that will never be, etc. 

My kids have a mentally ill father.  He tells them he will come to events, but they don't keep their hopes up.  Their feeling is that when he says something, they will hope for the best but prepare for the worst so they won't be as disappointed.  When skids' mom says she will be somewhere, they seem to totally expect it, tell their friends, etc.  Then they watch the door every time hoping it is she who will come in; and 90% of the time, she just doesn't show up. 

Same with the other promises of money, big presents, etc. 

And it is just hard to watch them get hurt over and over and over... .

[DreamGirl]

And the ONLY reason I want them to "get" that is that it hurts watching them fall down in disappointment again and again, basing their decisions on things that will never be, etc.  

My kids have a mentally ill father.  He tells them he will come to events, but they don't keep their hopes up.  Their feeling is that when he says something, they will hope for the best but prepare for the worst so they won't be as disappointed.  When skids' mom says she will be somewhere, they seem to totally expect it, tell their friends, etc.  Then they watch the door every time hoping it is she who will come in; and 90% of the time, she just doesn't show up.  

Same with the other promises of money, big presents, etc.  

And it is just hard to watch them get hurt over and over and over... .

Fair enough.

What do you think the disconnect is?

Why do your kids have the skill set to not be attached to promises and your stepkids don't?

What is different? Were they taught different?

[sanemom]

And the ONLY reason I want them to "get" that is that it hurts watching them fall down in disappointment again and again, basing their decisions on things that will never be, etc.  

My kids have a mentally ill father.  He tells them he will come to events, but they don't keep their hopes up.  Their feeling is that when he says something, they will hope for the best but prepare for the worst so they won't be as disappointed.  When skids' mom says she will be somewhere, they seem to totally expect it, tell their friends, etc.  Then they watch the door every time hoping it is she who will come in; and 90% of the time, she just doesn't show up.  

Same with the other promises of money, big presents, etc.  

And it is just hard to watch them get hurt over and over and over... .

Fair enough.

What do you think the disconnect is?

Why do your kids have the skill set to not be attached to promises and your stepkids don't?

What is different? Were they taught different?

I wish I knew.     It just makes me sad.

My oldest has always been a wise soul... . she was born old.  She was exposed to my DH full time longer (she was 8 when we separated).  At first I thought that may be it as BPD mom left the kids before they were even in school so they were not really exposed to the craziness often.  But then my youngest blew that theory because she, too, is realistic, and she was only 3 when we separated.

So... . I really don't know. 

[CrackedEgg1]

At the time of separation, my daughters where 3 and 6.

I made it a point early on to not discuss moms issues, to not talk anything negative about her. When they did bring up the negatives, or the fact that she was constantly blasting me in front of them, I would just say, I'm sorry we she does that. My goal was the to be the safe house, the normal house, where things operated on a persistent schedule and if mom was a no-show for picking them up for any reason, we didn't make any todo about it, other than the girls showing excitement and we just revised plans and went on.

A year or less ago, when my daughters were 7 and 10, they broke down and both of them just unloaded on me about things that were going on and why they didn't like going over there. I took the opportunity abandoned my don't ask, don't tell policy about my ex and while I didn't really share what transpired, but I told them, I understood exactly what they were dealing with, that I too had those issues with mom and they seemed so relieved that they had someone they could share and relate with in dealing with her. It was as if everything solidified then and its been great since. I've also been able to share some of the nuances I deal with now with them, so they know they are not the only one dealing with it.

So, now I work on helping them set boundaries with mom and how to handle situations and what not be concerned with.