Alcoholism and Extreme Exercise as Coping Mechanisms

[dimples2]

My husband who has most of the traits of BPD (but is not suicidal) finally stopped drinking and began attending AA 6 months ago. While this has been a positive change, of course all of the behaviours are still there - just no raging after he drinks too much. He previously saw himself as having some sort of mental illness and was self-medicating with alcohol. Now, he has changed his mind about getting seen for a diagnosis and he says it was just "social conditioning" that lead him to drink too much (22 years of agony for me and our 3 children). He has replaced alcohol with about 4 hours of exercise a day - training mainly for long road-biking events (over 200 kms.). Fortunately, he runs a successful company and only has to check in occasionally. He now tells me he is sick of AA because he's completely different from everyone there. Early on, he insisted I go to Al-Anon to better understand what he was going through but now he thinks I should stop because, again, they can't tell me anything since he's so unique as far as former drinkers go.

My question is - has he returned to a state of complete denial? and can exercise be used for the same reason as alcohol - to quiet the anguish and emotional pain he lives with constantly (and has admitted to occasionally in the past).

I am at the end of my rope here - I really feed a diagnosis and treatment is critical (although my therapist disagrees). He is going to be my kids' dad for the rest of their lives. Any thoughts? I keep wavering between leaving (he has threatened divorce twice in the last two weeks - new for him - because I have changed and refuse to put up with his fantasies. He points out that he has a)stopped drinking b)lost 35 pounds and c) is getting into amazing shape. This should be enough to show me how he is committed to improving himself and I should stop pushing therapy and treatment. Just manipulative behaviour, right? I see a guy in extreme emotional pain who has to be constantly exercising or exhausted and ready to sleep.

[Surnia]

Hi dimples2

and 

22 years of drinking, how exhausting and difficult this must be for you and your children!

I can relate with your feeling that there is a element of substitute alcohol with extreme exercise. On the other side: 22 years of drinking are so long, it is important to have something else. And less raging is a good thing.

I hear a sort of disappointment in your lines that he does not reach out for a treatment. Not everyone will take this road and we cannot force someone to see a therapist. This is out of control.

How old are your children?

Please stay in touch, dimples2

Surnia

[SadWifeofBPD]

It is very common for functiioning (working) alcoholics to think that they're not like "those others".  this happens at AA meetings and in rehab.  When my H went to rehab, he thought he was some kind of star, "Oh, I'm not in such bad shape.  I'm not like those other guys. I have a good job" blah blah blah.

My H also uses extensive exercise as some kind of drug.  The endorphins that get released to these folks are like a drug to them. It's not like that for everyone, but it is for some people. 

Addicts to substitute one thing for another.  Some alcoholics will drink ridiculous amounts of caffeine (coffee, energy drinks, etc). Some will smoke a lot. My H has a tendency to grab anything he can get his hands on, including other people's meds.

It's all about self-medicating.  Doing or taking anything that for a short-time makes them feel better.


As for not being suicidal:  Not to scare you, but you never know when those thoughts can come. I remember being totally floored when my H became suicidal at age 56 (married for 27 years at that point). He had never expressed such things before. But, suddenly that became a frequent mention.

[dimples2]

I must say Al-Anon was very enlightening for me - learning about how seriously people take those 12 steps was critical. I could tell my husband was losing interest and in AA and I asked him what step he was on - 12 was his answer! He claimed his sponsor told him that was the only important one and people should only focus on themselves. I called him out and that's when he really started saying he just didn't belong there.

Our kids are 20, 18 and 14 and are all great kids but I can see now that his behaviours frustrate and confuse them (they are all rational, logical thinkers). His drinking has "only" been really out of hand around the kids or other people about 10 times that I can remember in all those years. He acts stupid, regresses to being a pre-schooler and then rages at me when everyone else is out of earshot (so he has some awareness). However, he now attributes EVERYTHING to past drinking behaviour and claims that now he no longer drinks, he is "fine". He claims I've changed (therapy for me has changed how I react to his BPD behaviours) and it's because I no longer have control over him since he doesn't drink anymore. Strangest reasoning I've ever heard since I have always been the least controlling person when it comes to him - in fact that was part of my problem - I had to structure everything in our life to meet his needs and minimize the chance of him blowing up.

My husband has a PhD in exercise physiology so he is well aware of the benefits. When we first met he was running marathons. His knees gave out just before we got married and I could see cracks forming but of course since we had dated for 2.5 years, I thought it was a phase that would pass once his knees got better. I see now the extreme exercise plus some moderate drinking in those years helped him hold it together until we got married. He's never been able to run again.

His 3 closest friends from childhood (who he really only sees a couple of times a year) always comment that I was the best thing that ever happened to him and he could have taken a bad path without me there. Now I worry that leaving him would really cause a downward spiral and yes, as SadWife commented, I can see he could start talking suicide or do something really stupid. He's always repeated how he is impulsive but not with spending, drugs, driving etc. Well, he's high functioning and he knows what I will and won't tolerate. I've stopped him from buying properties and cars we didn't need many times. When we were dating, I followed through on a long-time plan of going on a round-the-world trip with a girlfriend. He tried to talk me out of it, but I went. When I came home, he was estranged from his family (things had always been rocky because of long term abuse from the father and the mum would not leave), he'd dropped out of his PhD and he'd called a close friend of mine and said some things to her that she promised to never repeat (because he convinced her it was all out of him missing me so badly). I am going to finally ask this friend what was said. I had never paid much attention to it because when I came home and we started dating again, he got back on track. I really think he became very depressed at that time. So, if that happened 23 years ago when we were dating, what the heck will happen now if I leave? At least he's got exercise but if his allergies act up or he doesn't sleep well the anger is there simmering.

He has threatened divorce twice in the last 2 weeks - this is new and he attributes it to my new nasty attitude (that would be because I generally try not to get sucked into the drama he creates anymore and I'm spending less time with him than he demands). I waffle between working on things and leaving, but I really think leaving may be the best option since he is in such denial. My therapist says I need to give him more consequences if I really want him to get treatment. What will rock bottom be for him? A suicide attempt? Scares me. I've helped him for so long but now I feel sorry for him more than I love him. I see flashes of the wonderful person I dated and he has moments of clarity but mostly he just looks desperate to me (no one else seems to see that).

[KellyO]

I'm far from expert when it comes to addictions, but what you wrote is familiar to me. My ex-bf was alcoholic, but I never saw him drinking, he had not taken a drop for 2 years when we met. And yes, he said he is not "like other alchoholics"... . and he is not even working! AA was not his thing, we have in my country other rehab-possibilities that he used and is still using, he has a support-person etc. But yes, he was special and much better person than those lousy drunks. I never understood this, because even he was not living in the streets when drinking, it was not far from that. He was almost there. I think this is again one of his never-ending ways to hide from himself. Nothing there anyone can do to make them see the reality.

And yes, my ex-bf could turn to sports instead. Actually, this is what he does in every summer: he plays tennis, often 5 hours a day, and then goes home and eats one liter of ice-cream. Every day.  Alone. (after writing this I really felt sorry for him, ice-cream is lousy substitute for love). Took me a year to see that pattern, because he hides it.  He has been very over weighted two times in his life... . his weight loosing technics were horrible too. He once lost 40 kilos by eating fruit sallad. Only fruit sallad. It is so damn crazy!

There is this BPD-pattern in him I saw: it is all or nothing. You eat till you are over 120 kg or you starve yourself and your poor body. You drink 'till you are alcoholic or you don't take a drop for years. You hate or you love.

BTW, I don't think he can keep himself from booze forever. Not if he does not do something to that disorder.

[dimples2]

Ice cream! My husband has also gone over the top in his consumption (although since he's lost 35 pounds in the last year it's frozen yogurt - 97% fat free only) but gallons of it!

My worry is that the drinking will start up again, especially if we separate. He runs a company (that he started) and it is and has always done really well so he does look good compared to many alcoholics he saw at AA. He doesn't smoke and although he frequently doesn't manage to look that great (stains on his shirt, needs a haircut, poor shaving, wrinkled pants) he is definitely the boss at his company and the team really jumps to attention - even when I walk in! So, he does put on a good show and now that he's slim and spending hours on end in his biking clothes (even when he checks in at the office) he LOOKS good. And for him, appearances are everything.

Incessant talking about himself too and his dieting (the kids call him Manorexic) because he only eats his food, lectures us all constantly on the evils of fat... . The one benefit of the extreme exercising is that he is gone for hours at a time and then he falls asleep early because he's so exhausted. More peace in the house! That's why I am leaning towards leaving. I love that peace when he leaves on his bike or falls asleep at 8 pm.

[SadWifeofBPD]

There is this BPD-pattern in him I saw: it is all or nothing. You eat till you are over 120 kg or you starve yourself and your poor body. You drink 'till you are alcoholic or you don't take a drop for years. You hate or you love.

This should be engraved somewhere because it is so true.  Don't know if it's more true for males with BPD or not.

My H would put himself on the Atkins Diet and loudly refuse to eat any carbs, but the in the middle of the night get up and eat every ounce of carbs in the house. 

Same with booze.  For the longest time, I was too stupid to realize that he had a drinking problem.  I didn't even know he was drinking much at all.  If we went out to dinner and I'd order a glass of wine, he'd refuse to have one as well.  So, I thought he wasn't much of a drinker!   Little did I know that he had a secret stash of booze that he would chug after I went to sleep! 

[HoldingAHurricane]

I am not speaking from any authority on this but just some thoughts I have been having about my husband. Our therapists were asking me about self harm/suicidal ideation and initially I said he has none. Then I got to thinking. My husband frequently and purposely under-eats when he is emotionally distressed. He also engages in punishing physical work for hours without hydration, food, of rest breaks. He once worked in the garden for five hours straight without any self care and hurt his hands so badly he could grip things the following day. My husband does it purposely and I do think this kind of behaviour is self harm. Of course, it can be a failure to self regulate and be extreme too. Just a thought. 

[martillo]

H is active alcoholic and diabetic, high functioning (generally), and we have our own company.  He is very all or nothing when it comes to diet and is obsessed w food.  (He is nothing w exercise!)

Dimples2-I attend Ala non and have learned that 1.  As individuals, H and I are unique, but our dysfunctional family/relationship is not (sort of like here-someone always has a story eerily like my own-yours, for example).  2.  I can only control myself-no matter how much I do, no matter how much I love, no matter I stand up or roll over, I can't control H.   And 3.  It is not my job to control him either.  Easier said than done and I make some good efforts and lots of mistakes. 

HAH-yes, I think pwBPD def push limits of endurance in almost all areas of their life.  H will not take his diabetic meds for days on end because "what does it really matter.  I'm gonna die soon anyway.". (He is only 50). Then wonders why his blood sugar isn't controlled!

[dimples2]

Thanks for all the wonderful posts - they all speak to me! I have also wondered about some of the punishing rides my husband does. Two years ago he rode his bike for about 12 hours straight - he ended up riding all night long down a quiet highway as he didn't book any hotel in advance and they were all full. He ended up with cellulitis from the chaffing - which he insisted was a pulled muscle. Long story short, his refusal to seek treatment over a period of 2 weeks resulted in excruciating pain, huge weight loss, high fever, fainting and his leg swelled up to double its regular size. He was extremely angry at me (no surprise) but I finally got him to the hospital - his organs were on the verge of shutting down. Who would endure such pain? - to me that's self-harm.

My therapist sees it more of a control issue - admitting he was wrong and seriously ill is not something a person like him with such a fragile ego can admit to - and then submit to treatment. He actually handed out business cards to the doctors he met in the ER and talking about doing business with them (he employs docs for Independent Medical Assessments in his business) so he wasn't a complete patient. Whether it's self-harm or control it's all sad.

[dimples2]

Hi Martillo, I worked in our business for 5 years but quit about 10 years ago - I was completely burned out. HOw do you do it? If I was with the kids, he was jealous I wasn't with him. If I was with him, he'd wonder when so and so's report was going to be finished. If I went to work on the report, he'd be calling to me to hurry up and come back to spend time with him. Then a kid would need me (and he did not do any of that) so the circle would repeat itself. He didn't notice how little I slept, how I had no time for myself and how unhappy I was. I finally realized one day that despite him telling me he desperately needed me to continue working for him, he had built up a successful business and I no longer needed to be there to help.

Al-Anon really did help me too - learning those things helped me get perspective and finally consider leaving rather than saying "How could I be better?" " What more can I do to help?" etc. etc. It's given me permission to think about myself and I have actually repaired several relationships my husband helped erode over the years. He even cut his mother out of his life - I was very close to her. We are back to being good friends again because I can't help him by supporting him in his anger over issues he has with her.

When I first went to Al-Anon, I thought it was the wrong place for me but I was pleasantly surprised.

Back to the food obsession. We have 3 teenagers in the house - two of them are boys and I can't believe how he tries to control their food consumption. The poor boys are hungry and he's lecturing them on the evils of bread!

[SadWifeofBPD]

He once worked in the garden for five hours straight without any self care and hurt his hands so badly he could grip things the following day.

The concept of "self care" and pwBPD needs to be further discussed or explored. One one hand, they can be so self-absorbed and taking care of their own needs (at the expense of others), but then they'll do things to themselves that are just crazy or dangerous.

Last year, during a VERY hot and humid day, H walked for 10 miles with little self care.  He couldn't work for 3 days after that.  What the heck?

I don't know if it's their "live in the moment, don't think about tomorrow" and impulsive attitude, or their immaturity and poor decision making skills ----- or what is going on. 

[KellyO]

He once worked in the garden for five hours straight without any self care and hurt his hands so badly he could grip things the following day.

The concept of "self care" and pwBPD needs to be further discussed or explored. One one hand, they can be so self-absorbed and taking care of their own needs (at the expense of others), but then they'll do things to themselves that are just crazy or dangerous.

Last year, during a VERY hot and humid day, H walked for 10 miles with little self care.  He couldn't work for 3 days after that.  What the heck?

I don't know if it's their "live in the moment, don't think about tomorrow" and impulsive attitude, or their immaturity and poor decision making skills ----- or what is going on. 

I think somehow this boils down to self-hate. And the core belief that they are not responsible for anything, and they are specially not responsible for themselves! If you are not one bit responsible for yourself, how could you know when to stop, and when you are actually harming yourself? And self-hate gets satisfaction from harming oneself. And when they are taking care of their needs, are they really taking care of real needs or compulsions and greed? My ex-bf just can't get enough of anything.

[Surnia]

Hi dimples2

You have great kids, I had to smile about her view of the things calling him manorexic.

You are here on the Undecided board. Your kids are not toddlers anymore. You are feel much better when your h is out for biking.

That's why I am leaning towards leaving. I love that peace when he leaves on his bike or falls asleep at 8 pm.

What is hindering you to leave or divorce?

[SadWifeofBPD]

He once worked in the garden for five hours straight without any self care and hurt his hands so badly he could grip things the following day.

The concept of "self care" and pwBPD needs to be further discussed or explored. On one hand, they can be so self-absorbed and taking care of their own needs (at the expense of others), but then they'll do things to themselves that are just crazy or dangerous.

Last year, during a VERY hot and humid day, H walked for 10 miles with little self care.  He couldn't work for 3 days after that.  What the heck?

I don't know if it's their "live in the moment, don't think about tomorrow" and impulsive attitude, or their immaturity and poor decision making skills ----- or what is going on. 

I think somehow this boils down to self-hate. And the core belief that they are not responsible for anything, and they are specially not responsible for themselves! If you are not one bit responsible for yourself, how could you know when to stop, and when you are actually harming yourself? And self-hate gets satisfaction from harming oneself. And when they are taking care of their needs, are they really taking care of real needs or compulsions and greed? My ex-bf just can't get enough of anything.

I agree with your statement that they don't think they're responsible for the negative consequences. My H became angry when I told him that he had done this to himself (walking for so long in intense heat). 

I'm guessing that the "self hate" means that since they don't like themselves, they are grasping at straws finding ways to either self medicate or improve.  My H is on some extreme physical improvement kick... . taking varous crap to build more muscles, etc. He's blowing money that we don't have on all this stuff.  His own mom got a face lift in her 80s because she was so focused on her looks (she's never been attractive, so she's focused on that.)

My sister, a T, says that these people are in such constant pain that they use whatever they can to experience a moment of relief.  Calling their spouses bad names gives them a couple of seconds of pain relief.  Alcohol gives them temporary pain relief and so forth. 

Before I knew about BPD, I was always annoyed when H would say, "I hurt more than you do."  I found that insulting because this would be after he had said horrible things to me, so why would his pain be greater.  I didn't know better.

[dimples2]

Hi Surnia,

What is hindering me? For so long I thought it was me who was at fault or a long line of personal and health issues that my husband said just upset him so much (and I of course was not sensitive enough about so therefore caused the raging etc.). I am working on my new self-concept which is taking time to adjust to. I was so committed for so long and tried to support him so completely, I just couldn't see things as they really were. I was so isolated from people - I only have 1 sister close by and some cousins far away and my husband either alienated me from people or became their best friend too that I had no one I could confide it. Well, things finally came to a head about 5 months ago and I open my eyes and saw his mental illness for the first time as a separate entity.

I am learning to give consequences - must of our summer will be apart which is really upsetting to him but I told him he needs a diagnosis once and for all plus treatment for me to ever consider traveling with him alone again (I feel like a hostage on trips without other people outside the family). He has made promises as usual, but if nothing happens by September, separation will happen.

He had an assessment for ADHD 4 years ago at my insistence - can you believe I actually thought all of his raging, splitting, alienating, mood swings etc. were somehow caused by ADHD? The Psychiatrist he saw specializes in ADHD and told my husband he did not have it - sent him for Sleep Apnea testing which came back positive. There was a vague mention of "something else" and suddenly my husband purchased a PTSD workbook which he said would solve anything else. Wrong self-diagnosis and 4 years later I have asked to see the report. The psychiatrist never wrote it (claims my H was to send the Sleep Apnea results for inclusion). Anyways, this Dr. is now writing the report as my husband insists there will be a diagnosis. He threatened divorce when I pushed and said the data is 4 years old and there's no way this guy did a full Psych assessment. (I would have accepted separation/divorce but our kids were in the middle of exams and one week later would have been better.)

He is going to be my kids' dad forever and I feel consequences and pushing are leading somewhere - albeit slowly. Normally I would be so happy that he felt bad after a blow-up that I would just want things to go back to "normal" but I've completely changed (the new nasty me my H calls it). So, exams are done and if he wants to divorce or separate, now's a good time - better if it's his idea at this point. Ideally, I would like to see him with a proper diagnosis and treatment - I fear he will start drinking again and really go downhill (happened to his dad when the mother finally left after 35 years of abuse).

So, yes I know I am posting on the undecided board when I really should go, but I hold out a small amount of hope that this wounded man will get some help and improve his life. If I make the decision to leave, he will not do anything - just tell everyone I dumped him when he was making so many positive changes - weight loss, fitness, no alcohol, model father, excellent provider. Am I crazy to think a diagnosis can give me something to hang on to and show I'm not evil or crazy for leaving him at this time. He has fooled absolutely everyone in our lives. 

[dimples2]

SadWife - I understand that "I hurt more than you do". My father had just died and some obnoxious relatives of my husband's had just arrived at our house for a two week visit. We had rented a cottage with them and they were very impatient about getting there from our house, despite the fact I was grieving and had a funeral to arrange. I went out to buy a suit for the funeral and my husband blew up at me when I came back. His reason? Because I had taken so long they were becoming more agitated about leaving and he had to suffer. I should have just worn something I already had or hurried but I just didn't consider how hard it was for him to sit with these people who wanted to get to the beach! Story of my life.

[SadWifeofBPD]

SadWife - I understand that "I hurt more than you do". My father had just died and some obnoxious relatives of my husband's had just arrived at our house for a two week visit. We had rented a cottage with them and they were very impatient about getting there from our house, despite the fact I was grieving and had a funeral to arrange. I went out to buy a suit for the funeral and my husband blew up at me when I came back. His reason? Because I had taken so long they were becoming more agitated about leaving and he had to suffer. I should have just worn something I already had or hurried but I just didn't consider how hard it was for him to sit with these people who wanted to get to the beach! Story of my life.

I know exactly how you feel.  When my mom had a major stroke, I flew out to be with her during her last days.  She never regained consciousness.  I sat with her for 8 days while she died, holding her hand, stroking her hair, whispering in her ear... . until she died. Then the funeral had to be arranged.

  My H was home taking care of our pets.  When he picked me up at the airport, I got into the car and broke down in tears and said, "this was the worst 2 weeks of my life."   My H's response: "it was the worst two weeks of my life. Taking care of the pets is horrible".   I looked at him and said, "shame on you. You didn't just watch your mother die. You didn't just bury your mom."  He was shocked by my words, and he did apologize.  But, my goodness! 

pwBPD think that their pain trumps everyones!  Even those who've just lost loved ones.

[waverider]

The commonality between addictions and BPD is the extend of of delusion and total denial of anything that impedes their need to satisfy urges. Including lessons learnt from past behavior.

My partner has been in residential alcohol detox 20+ times over her life, abused meds. You think you are over it, they believe they have beat it then you wake up one day and its Groundhog day again.

It takes priority over everything else. My partner just underwent surgery for stage 3C breast cancer and is on Chemo. That plus BPD is hard enough to deal with, but then they prescribed oxycodene painkillers and the switch was flipped, and she pulled all the addict tricks out of the bag and managed to get double prescribed in bulk, so we are in the full throws dealing with Oxy addiction, and this completely swamps treatment of Breast cancer.

What I am saying is, if this sort of thing is in their nature it always will be, all it takes is a trigger when they have their defenses down. Their defenses do come down if they fall into the "I have beaten it" mind set. They have never beaten it, only managing it.

It is never behind you, only locked in the seller. all you can do is your best to ensure they don't get the key.

[SadWifeofBPD]

The commonality between addictions and BPD is the extend of of delusion and total denial of anything that impedes their need to satisfy urges. Including lessons learnt from past behavior.


What I am saying is, if this sort of thing is in their nature it always will be, all it takes is a trigger when they have their defenses down. Their defenses do come down if they fall into the "I have beaten it" mind set. They have never beaten it, only managing it.

It is never behind you, only locked in the seller. all you can do is your best to ensure they don't get the key.

Ok... . I can see that.

I'm feeling kind of low today because my H sent me an email that essentially says that he's been sober these last few months because he's away from me. His obvious implication is that I "cause" him to drink.

In some ways, I guess that is true (but not in the real sense).  Right now, he's living alone, doing what he wants, when he wants, with no one bothering him about anything.  When we're together, naturally, things come up... . the pets might bother him, I might park the car in a way that he doesn't like, he may not like that I didn't cook his toast long enough, or I "took too long" doing something... . or whatever.

However, I'm very hurt and offended that he's equating the fact that he's not been drinking to the fact that it's because he's away from me and I'm the "cause" of his drinking (and his stupid relatives believe this). 

I know from Alanon... . I didnt' cause it, I can't control it, I can't cure it.   I know that deep down, but it still hurts that he believes that I'm the cause and he tells people this. 

[waverider]

The tendency to blame others for causing them to drink is one of the biggest barriers to overcome when reaching a state of realistic substance management. Otherwise there is a  ready excuse for a relapse. Domestic blow up, conflict at work, death of a relative etc

I was talking through this very subject with my partner now 20 weeks clean last night. The beast is locked in the cellar and the only way it gets out is if SHE lets it out, as she holds the key. She has to work on responsible ownership of that key. The analogy here is about focusing on responsibility for the key (Healthy coping mechanisms) , rather than directly at the beast.

[morningagain]

Hmm.  Well, I am an alcoholic, and I have an addictive personality.  My number one addiction is to my dBPD wife (separated).

Denial is a powerful weapon that the alcoholic (addict) in me uses to get me using.  It is difficult, even on this anonymous forum, to admit that I am an alcoholic.  I have had many self-affirming reasons, rationalizations regarding how I am different than other alcoholics.  I struggle to recall some of the more exciting memories - like crashing into a tree head on at 60mph.  And when I do recall, denial returns and I blame my BPD wife.  There are a million reasons, any dozen I can come up with on a moment's notice, to justify my drinking and 'prove' that I am not an alcoholic.  

Relief from emotional pain is the number one 'reason' I use to justify drinking.  When the emotional pain is high enough, I can intellectually understand I tend to make things worse for myself and behave hurtfully to others, but allure of immediate pain relief overwhelms me.  Then I frequently do or say something emotionally hurtful, and the next day feel deep humiliation, and I isolate myself.  Nasty pattern.  Similar to the BPD pain/act out/guilt/more pain/projection to escape pain/etc. cycle.  Now, pair me with an amazing alluring awesome BPD woman, and... .      And because of my codep tendencies, drinking or not drinking, my addict in me is winning.  Drinking makes everything worse at a faster pace.

Ultimately, it is impossible for me to stay sober alone.  Complacency (or denial/excuses) keeps me away from those that support me in my recovery, and I relapse.

Like today.

The addict in me keeps me hooked to the disordered relationship I have with my wife.  I am powerless and the relationship has made my life unmanageable.  The only way out is to seek and accept help (fellowship), faith (in something that is greater than i - there better be something since I am powerless), and service - cannot keep what I do not give away.

I think about how CoDA (codeps anonymous) has a 12 step program directly taken from AA with some slight mods to fit codependency instead of alcoholism.  Seems like a good indication that somebody out there believes one can be addicted to an unhealthy relationship.

I stopped drinking for 5 years at one point.  Getting out of the enmeshment of this codep/BPD relationship is proving far more difficult.

sorry - feels like i am rambling now.  i had intended to provide a little bit of an inside view from an addict.

I will get healthy, not overnight, and not without many painful and painstaking steps.  Pretty much that which I spent so much time demanding that my wife do.

I can only change myself, and that is a b#### of a task... .

[dimples2]

Hi Jason,

Thank you for writing - very profound. I sometimes think my husband is addicted to me (I don't have BPD but I've certainly got my own issues - enabler, blame myself for everything, need approval from him). I have tried to set boundaries recently (thanks to Al-Anon and some excellent counselling since accepting his promises did nothing for 22 years) and clearly laid out my expectations (assessment and treatment). He sees everything as a punishment and either continues with the denial (like today when he overreacted to the fact that  I am going away without him for a weekend next month to see an old girlfriend and he's not invited - all trips entail rages, blaming, embarrassing behaviour etc. etc. so I am refusing to go with him until he gets help). I already told him I would be going to see this friend weeks ago, but his hurt and anger were like I'd never said it before. But, few hours later, he was back being cheerful, following me everywhere, asking me to show him on a calendar all the days we are going to be alone together this July when our kids are away at camp. I fell asleep briefly on the couch just now and he left the room - I woke up and turned on the T.V. - he heard me and was so hurt I was watching without telling him I'd woken up again.

My fear is that he will go back to drinking when/if we break up. It doesn't matter how "tough" or clear I am - he denies and reacts to EVERYTHING I do as a letdown or disappointment or "nasty behaviour" because I no longer cater to his every whim and I don't feed into his hatred of so many people (repairing relationships I "co-ended" with him has kept me busy but has made me feel so fantastic!

I am leaning more towards leaving. I am imagining my life as independent - not co-dependent which I most certainly must be. It used to scare me so much just imagining it, but now I can see life without him. I may even get a dog! No more constant stress. Why else would I put up with this crap? I want and deserve peace not the turmoil he lives with that he shares so readily with me.  He even encourages me to drink "because you don't have a problem" but I sometimes feel he'd love it if I became dependent on alcohol - it makes me sleepy and then of course, I don't go too far and I'm all his.

Jason, it's a big deal that you wrote what you did. I really hope you can start seeing another life for yourself.

[morningagain]

Hi dimples   

Thank you for the kind words.

You mentioned your fear that he might drink again if you leave.  Well, my codependency is driven by my fears, and leads to poor decisions.

Figure out if you need to leave, and then leave if that is what you decide.  Staying with someone to protect them from themselves is... . codependency.  It does not work because we give all of our power over to our s/o's disorder.  Enables them.  Leaves us dazed and confused and hurting.  Then we react badly, triggering them. etc., etc.

An addict, much like a PD, tends to only admit to their addiction (or disorder) AND meaningfully seek and engage in therapy, when they bottom out.  For some, their 'bottom' isn't too bad.  For others - yeesh - it is very bad (like me).  Nobody could have persuaded me to admit to alcoholism AND meaningfully engage in therapy prior to me bottoming out.  And I have an enormous arsenal of excuses to drink.  Staying does not mean he will not drink.  Leaving does not mean he will drink.  If he drinks, that is his choice.  Just like a PD can choose therapy and a healthy emotional life, an addict can choose AA and a healthy & sober life.  PD's frequently become addicts, and they still have those choices.  I am codep AND an (alcohol) addict, and my choices are mine alone, not my wife's.  If she did not 'provide' me with an excuse to drink, I have a million other 'justifications'.

Take good care of you.  That is the best way to be in a good place to help others, and to find and build a healthy relationship.

Jason

[waverider]

Hi dimples   

Thank you for the kind words.

You mentioned your fear that he might drink again if you leave.  Well, my codependency is driven by my fears, and leads to poor decisions.

Figure out if you need to leave, and then leave if that is what you decide.  Staying with someone to protect them from themselves is... . codependency.  It does not work because we give all of our power over to our s/o's disorder.  Enables them.  Leaves us dazed and confused and hurting.  Then we react badly, triggering them. etc., etc.

An addict, much like a PD, tends to only admit to their addiction (or disorder) AND meaningfully seek and engage in therapy, when they bottom out.  For some, their 'bottom' isn't too bad.  For others - yeesh - it is very bad (like me).  Nobody could have persuaded me to admit to alcoholism AND meaningfully engage in therapy prior to me bottoming out.  And I have an enormous arsenal of excuses to drink.  Staying does not mean he will not drink.  Leaving does not mean he will drink.  If he drinks, that is his choice.  Just like a PD can choose therapy and a healthy emotional life, an addict can choose AA and a healthy & sober life.  PD's frequently become addicts, and they still have those choices.  I am codep AND an (alcohol) addict, and my choices are mine alone, not my wife's.  If she did not 'provide' me with an excuse to drink, I have a million other 'justifications'.

Take good care of you.  That is the best way to be in a good place to help others, and to find and build a healthy relationship.

Jason

Thanks for the "inside" view. Much of what you say is similar to my partners thinking now. It took a lot of damage and recycling to get to this stage. But are least we on the same agenda now, she is still petrified of drinking again. It may happen, but I believe she would attempt to address it quickly. Each recycle has increased ownership of the issue, reduced denial, so it has not been as bad as the time before. Apart from the fact my reserves of patience became less.

This addictive behavior is displayed in everything she does in almost an OCD manner (she was misdaig OCD instead of BPD for many years). It fluctuates from one thing to another. Apart from the health damaging physically addictions, even the addiction say to a food fad becomes invasive as the need to go to a cafe and have whatever it is, takes priority over everything else no matter how urgent. Once you address that fad its on to the next. There is always something disrupting functionality. This is what makes her low function as the draw of the fad, no matter how small, would take priority over turning up for work even-.

It is draining the way everyone else is expected to fit around these things, and there is always that million choices of plausible excuses for not turning up etc.

[SadWifeofBPD]

The analogy here is about focusing on responsibility for the key (Healthy coping mechanisms) , rather than directly at the beast.

that is a large problem that we have.

Along with BPD and alcoholism, H has an addictive personality (which he readily admits). He does everything to an extreme.

The problem is his coping mechanisms; he doesn't have any "healthy ones" except maybe exercise, which becomes unhealthy when he's extreme about it.

Years ago, I noticed that H's "go to" response to any difficulties is a "magic pill".  When he was staying up too late and not getting enough sleep, instead of going to be earlier, he looked for meds to reduce his tiredness. When he exercises too much and hurts himself, the remedy is... . another pill. 

As I mentioned upthread, today was a bad day for me because he blames his drinking on me. I want to respond with a SET response, but I can't think of one that won't sound defensive.

[waverider]

The analogy here is about focusing on responsibility for the key (Healthy coping mechanisms) , rather than directly at the beast.

that is a large problem that we have.

Along with BPD and alcoholism, H has an addictive personality (which he readily admits). He does everything to an extreme.

The problem is his coping mechanisms; he doesn't have any "healthy ones" except maybe exercise, which becomes unhealthy when he's extreme about it.

Years ago, I noticed that H's "go to" response to any difficulties is a "magic pill".  When he was staying up too late and not getting enough sleep, instead of going to be earlier, he looked for meds to reduce his tiredness. When he exercises too much and hurts himself, the remedy is... . another pill. 

As I mentioned upthread, today was a bad day for me because he blames his drinking on me. I want to respond with a SET response, but I can't think of one that won't sound defensive.

My partner too also relies on pills to regulate her life to the point that meds are taken to counter the compounding side effects of too many meds. It is so hard to overcome this.

[SadWifeofBPD]

The analogy here is about focusing on responsibility for the key (Healthy coping mechanisms) , rather than directly at the beast.

that is a large problem that we have.

Along with BPD and alcoholism, H has an addictive personality (which he readily admits). He does everything to an extreme.

The problem is his coping mechanisms; he doesn't have any "healthy ones" except maybe exercise, which becomes unhealthy when he's extreme about it.

Years ago, I noticed that H's "go to" response to any difficulties is a "magic pill".  When he was staying up too late and not getting enough sleep, instead of going to be earlier, he looked for meds to reduce his tiredness. When he exercises too much and hurts himself, the remedy is... . another pill. 

As I mentioned upthread, today was a bad day for me because he blames his drinking on me. I want to respond with a SET response, but I can't think of one that won't sound defensive.

My partner too also relies on pills to regulate her life to the point that meds are taken to counter the compounding side effects of too many meds. It is so hard to overcome this.

Yes, it's a vicious cycle. H takes all these stimulants to "wake up" and stay awake, then has to take sleeping pills, etc, to go to sleep.  Then all this crap interferes with sexual function, then he takes something for that (which often doesn't work because of the other crap he's taking).  Then he'll rage that we're not having sex often enough and that it's all my fault!  Of course, he tells everyone that I "deny" him sex, but the truth is that he often can't perform... . and he certainly does NOT tell people THAT.  So, again, I end up looking like some kind of mean, cruel, withholding, frigid wife.

[martillo]

Then all this crap interferes with sexual function, then he takes something for that (which often doesn't work because of the other crap he's taking).  Then he'll rage that we're not having sex often enough and that it's all my fault!  Of course, he tells everyone that I "deny" him sex, but the truth is that he often can't perform... . and he certainly does NOT tell people THAT.  So, again, I end up looking like some kind of mean, cruel, withholding, frigid wife.

SadWifeofBPD  I don't deal w the issue of meds to wake up and meds to sleep - H is afraid he will get "addicted."   Alcohol is his drug of choice.  :)ue to his diabetes and alcoholism we deal w ED.  The commercials on TV make it almost seem fun and romantic, but Yikes! it has been really bad news for our already challenging relationship!  I, too, have joined the ranks of mean, cruel, withholding, frigid wives.    H wants me to be the wild and crazy "girl" he met, and forgets that he isn't the rock-hard, studly "boy" I met.  

I would imagine that this is a challenging issue for healthy relationships, so throw in a little BPD and alcohol / drugs, mix well and ... . scary monsters come out from under the bed!

[dimples2]

An addict, much like a PD, tends to only admit to their addiction (or disorder) AND meaningfully seek and engage in therapy, when they bottom out.  For some, their 'bottom' isn't too bad.  For others - yeesh - it is very bad (like me).  Nobody could have persuaded me to admit to alcoholism AND meaningfully engage in therapy prior to me bottoming out.  And I have an enormous arsenal of excuses to drink.  Staying does not mean he will not drink.  Leaving does not mean he will drink.  If he drinks, that is his choice.  Just like a PD can choose therapy and a healthy emotional life, an addict can choose AA and a healthy & sober life.  PD's frequently become addicts, and they still have those choices.  I am codep AND an (alcohol) addict, and my choices are mine alone, not my wife's.  If she did not 'provide' me with an excuse to drink, I have a million other 'justifications'.

Take good care of you.  That is the best way to be in a good place to help others, and to find and build a healthy relationship.

Hi Jason, I've heard about this bottoming out so many times over the years, but when you wrote that it finally sank in. My husband, who has had 48 hours alone at our place up north and I know is not coping well because he's alone with his thoughts (and it's raining so he can't ride 100+ miles on his bike today) has just called and said "I think we're going through a phase because I'm semi-retired." I told him I had no idea what he was talking about. Unbelievable that a guy who has admitted to needing psychiatric help many times in the past, promised to get therapy over and over after one of his rages, drinking binges etc. has minimized it to "a phase" attributed to the fact he doesn't need to work as many hours as he used to? This is a man who needs a reality check - I know that me sticking around because I'm worried he'll get worse (mainly I worry about how it would affect our 3 teenagers) is allowing him to maintain the facade in front of his employees, friends, etc. It's so hard though when he calls today all lovely-dovey and missing me when he was so impatient and angry two days ago. I used to think "he's finally learned, he's reflected on his behaviour, he'll follow through this time; but of course he never does because I don't change). At least I haven't reverted back to my typical patterns of being grateful he wasn't in a peaceful stage.

In regards to the other comments about different "drugs" and "fads" I can certainly relate to those as well. My husband has taken a variety of meds for anxiety, allergies, bladder issues (his dr. friend believes this is more anxiety while my husband insists he goes so often because he has a "genetically small bladder". He claims he always gets all of the worst side effects for everything so now he's trying not to take anything but the anxiety and bladder meds. His coffee consumption is way up too. And fads - every day it seems he has a new business idea or invention that's "the best" and is going to make millions. He talks about it constantly and then if the idea goes nowhere, it seems to burn itself out and he moves on to something else. He gets away with it because he has been successful with his company. He doesn't even seem to notice when I can't listen anymore. I think that talking constantly is one way he quiets his inner demons.