Parenting insanity

[thisyoungdad]

My wife and I are in the process of getting a divorce, which is not what I wanted but that is a different story. Anyway so her job means she has a somewhat irregular schedule and for 3 years I was always the one who had the child those evenings. The last 9 months we arranged the parenting schedule so I could continue to have the child those days and it helped her out and it worked fine for me. Suddenly she refuses to allow that anymore, but still needs someone to watch our kid so she has this incredibly sick and narcissistic woman (her BFF) doing it now. The family specialist we are seeing even said to her that this state "Highly encourages you to give the right of first refusal until your parenting plan is filed in which case she will legally have to I believe" and yet she sat there and refused to do this. I just felt like what a cold hearted... . this other person is so sick herself I don't want my kid near her. I have cause to push it legally actually, but I am hesitant to go there as she has my wife under serious emotional manipulation and it could make my life a living hell. Ever since this woman came on the scene parenting with my wife has gone from really well to pure insanity, in a matter of a couple short months. I want to beat my head against the wall. It sucks because I can't control it. No one can it seems. Even her lawyer can see the insanity and yet can not get her to realize. I think it is because she can not take responsibility for anything and god forbid she "need" me for anything. It is so frustrating though and heartbreaking. She is using our daughter as her pawn to hurt me. How does one even begin to deal with this? Thankfully so far we have 50/50 custody but I fear she has something coming to try and challenge that. I live in fear of that. It is a crappy situation and I don't get it.

[ForeverDad]

It is what it is.  To a certain extent - ethically and legally - you have to do what you have to do for your children's best interests.  However, those feelings such as "I am hesitant" puts you at risk of self-sabotage, sabotaging your own case for effective parenting and the best interests of your children.  Holding back would put you at a disadvantage.  Yes, you are a Nice Guy but you still need to be assertive and proactive or else you'll be walked over and stomped on.

The professionals seem to be giving good input.  But at this point they don't have much weight, now mostly advisory and not authority.  Same for you, your spouse no longer sees your as having any authority or meriting any respect.  What to do?  The only authority left is family court.  The judge has the authority that ex can't ignore with impunity.  Yes, a judge mught be reluctant to make firm orders or give consequences for noncompliance, especially at first.  It's still up to you to get these issues before the court.  Shed light on the history.  Shed light on her poor behavior patterns.  Since courts generally don't seem to care much about adult behaviors, at least when it comes to custody and parenting schedule issues, give the most focus to parenting behaviors and the parenting history.  Speak out to the judge what you believe is best for your children.

Yes, it won't be easy, ex will use every little bit of emotionally convincing claims and allegations to delay, block and obstruct you as parent, but set firm boundaries in your life and go forward.

This initial separation period before you get initial orders, before you get the evaluation reports, before the court sees the behavior patterns, is especially hard but "this too shall pass" and hopefully soon you'll be on firmer ground with better orders.

By the way, most here didn't want divorces either, but we ended up here because all other options have failed.  Often, even appeasement and living as muddy doormats had failed too.  Most states have laws where the courts don't care who didn't want a divorce.  If one wants it, then it happens.  That's the reality we have to accept.

[livednlearned]

How old is your child? Is the new BFF having any adverse impact on your child? Document everything right now -- it's especially important. You are probably right that she is going to try and go for more than 50/50, and does not want your child to spend more time with you.

If you plan to counter this, you need to document everything. Try to get as much in print as possible. No phone conversations, email only.

[marbleloser]

 She's trying to take away your parenting time,in order to show the court that you don't have the children as often.Don't believe her atty doesn't think this is a good idea.He/she probably told her to do it.

You're the parent also.50/50.That means you can go to her bff house and TAKE the child from her by force if necessary.(with police present) Don't give in to this crap! You probably have since you were married,but that all changes now.You have to assert your parenting rights.If there's no court ordered parenting time or order,then you have AS MUCH SAY in the childs life as she does.

Who filed for divorce?

[ForeverDad]

Now, in the initial weeks and months post-separation is a very volatile period, almost anything can happen or be alleged.  So be careful.  Get a problem-solving and assertive lawyer and follow his/her instructions.

Be especially careful not to take actions that could have adverse legal consequences.  Yes, much of the chaos and claims in the early days post-separation never reach family court, but abuse/DV/harassment allegations can still be made to family court and other courts and make your life even more complicated with protection or restraining orders.

In my case, over the period between separation and final decree I faced (1) multiple child abuse allegations, each one slightly different and more shocking than the disregarded ones before, (2) police who would not help me get or see my child since we had no written orders yet stated that if I went to see child they would immediately respond to any emergency calls and allegations she made, (3) claims I was harassing her when all I was doing was trying to talk to my son by phone, on the phones I was paying for, during the 3 months she blocked all father-child contact, (4) 3 months blocking which she confirmed to the court but court then disregarded, (5) even with an order ex tried to get an Amber Alert declared on me when I took my child on vacation, etc.  I had to walk a fine line between standing up for myself and avoiding creating larger legal impediments to my case.

Do you have any written orders now?  Then follow them.  Just because your orders might state a schedule doesn't mean you can pick up your child when with others on your spouse's parenting time.  Get legal advice for any major actions or questions.  And any unscheduled pick ups your ex might object to need to be done with police present or else she could twist the events to make you seem Mr Evil Personified.

If not, then it might be a free-for-all for possession, back and forth.  However, get legal advice before fetching your child.  You don't want her to file claims of child abduction, child abuse, etc.

In my case, I couldn't go pick up my son from anywhere because my ex didn't use daycare or sitters and son wasn't in school yet.  So (1) no orders and (2) son was always with her so far as I ever knew.  I was stuck powerless and the agencies didn't care, at least all they said was to go get a written court order fixing my problem.  Duh, I had already filed and had to wait two long months for that initial court hearing.  Every agency had a limited slice of responsibility and if I fell outside the scope of their assigned procedures, I was turned away.

[Matt]

Do you have a good lawyer?

Where are you in the custody process?

Ask your lawyer about filing a motion for a Custody Evaluator - a Ph.D. psychologist who can do objective psych evals.

[thisyoungdad]

I have a fabulous lawyer, one of the best in the area. She has been here for 30+ years and you just drop her name and people know her. She has been giving me a lot of great legal advice recently, much of which is document every single thing I can and be cautious not to push her too hard. Earlier on right before I got my lawyer the wife was going crazy, and had dropped our 3 year old off at this friends house. I still didn't realize this friend had so many issues herself. This friend however said something to my wife that led my wife to believe I was coming to "kidnap" our daughter even though it had been the wife who had taken her for days on end without telling anyone where they were going. I don't doubt it could happen again now with things even more escalated. I also have a good therapist who actually has talked to my lawyer and they both are advising me well, and reminding me to be cautious and assertive because she is so good at twisting things.

There is no court ordered parenting plan or anything yet. We have an agreed upon plan drawn up, but the wife choose the "collaborative" way to divorce which if this is collaborative god help me if it wasn't so it will not be filed until September or later. So I am not sure how the family court will be involved but my attorney and the family specialist who is basically the child advocate is aware and is seeing some of the behaviors and they are not putting up with it. I think that is making the wife a little crazy too because she is getting called out a lot of her behavior because it is effecting the child and I am quick to point that out to those who need to know. The family specialist/child advocate is also highly respected and known around here with over 20 years experience so they know personality disorders when they see them so all that is helpful except they can not make her do anything and that is frustrating, even to the family specialist I can see it.

I think my lawyer knows that in terms of the child it may get ugly, because she hints at it but is hesitant to come out and say anything yet. I think my lawyer is waiting to see how it pans out but in close contact with even the wife's lawyer, who can also see something isn't right and has started to reprimand her (the wife) on her behavior. Her lawyer is a mother whose kids are my age (I just turned 30) and has grandkids and is a very nice woman so she doesn't really put up with the B.S behavior if she finds out about it. It is just so hard in this in between time to watch this crap and feel so powerless. I talked to her first ex and they said watch out, she is like a mamma bear thinking she has to protect her cub and it is life or death to her so she will do anything. I threw up after that conversation.

I know this too shall pass and in the coming couple of months more will be legally binding but she doesn't think that rules and laws apply to her, neither do her sick parents who helped create this situation. Laws are there to be followed as she feels like it most the time. She usually does but that is her mentality. I don't get how people can be so sick they don't care how it effects their kid so long as they get what they want.

[Matt]

"... . it will not be filed until September or later."  What will not be filed?

Have you already filed for divorce?  If not, why wait?

The "collaborative" style of divorce will not work.  It's OK to play that game for a little while, to act nice, but you and your lawyer need to understand that it is not going to resolve anything.  The resolution will come either through court action - a trial - or more likely through a settlement when the trial is approaching.  If you are in a strong position to win at trial, the settlement can be a good one.

Why not file for a Custody Evaluation and objective psych evals?  That's what worked for me.  Without that, everybody involved may know your wife has a problem, but it won't do you any good, because it's not objective - it's not a fact, so the court won't take it into account.  Getting objective psych evals turns it into a fact, and you can then show the court that the parent's psychological disorder(s) put the child at high risk long-term.

Can you file for temporary orders - right now?

Can you file to get a trial date set?  That will put a stake in the ground - the process will end on such-and-such a date - might be several months away - so the other side can see they need to bargain in good faith or they will lose.

[livednlearned]

The "collaborative" style of divorce will not work.  It's OK to play that game for a little while, to act nice, but you and your lawyer need to understand that it is not going to resolve anything.  The resolution will come either through court action - a trial - or more likely through a settlement when the trial is approaching.  If you are in a strong position to win at trial, the settlement can be a good one.

There's a difference between having a great lawyer, and having a lawyer who is experienced with high-conflict divorces. If your L is telling you to go along with collaborative divorce, I don't think she understands high-conflict divorces.

In collaborative divorces, you both play your full hand. Everything is on the table. Then, if you get to a point where you don't agree on something (remember, this is BPD), then your lawyers are legally not allowed to litigate.

That means that you have to retain a new lawyer. And start all over again.

So unless you truly believe that you and your ex can come to amicable agreements, and that she won't railroad you or steam roller you, and the two of you can work through everything, then you are about to throw all your money in a trash can. And your ex will know everything you have in your deck.

Collaborative divorces are for low-conflict couples. If you start with one, then like others have said, use it as a strategy that works in your favor. Like if you're buying time or want to appear reasonable while you get your bearings.

[ForeverDad]

I talked to her first ex and they said watch out, she is like a mamma bear thinking she has to protect her cub and it is life or death to her so she will do anything. I threw up after that conversation. ... . she doesn't think that rules and laws apply to her, neither do her sick parents who helped create this situation.

People with BPD and the related PDs have an exaggerated sense of Entitlement, beyond all reason and reasoning.

If my custody evaluator's report were summarized in a sentence or two it would have been, ""Mother cannot share 'her' child but father can.  If shared parenting is attempted and fails, then father should get custody."

When we had been in mediation, she told the mediator that our son was 'her' child, not ours.  He corrected her.  When she replied it was her culture, he said, We're not there, we're here.

Doubly strange, she was claiming that her culture said our child was 'her' child, yet her own two brothers were raised by her father and she rarely ever saw them.   It just never made sense, not that she cared of course.

I agree that collaborative divorce has barely a slim chance of success.  Maybe, maybe not, but perhaps one positive of this delay is that various professionals are seeing her poor behaviors.  That may lead you to feel it's a "slam dunk", so obvious.  But beware that mothers are often given unwritten preference.  Even despite poor behaviors.  Keep making sure her poor behaviors are reported.

An important question... . Will these professionals be able to report to the court or custody evaluator what behaviors they've seen?  (Remember, her lawyer is working for her, so her lawyer will publicly advocate for her, though possibly leave openings for your lawyer to get the important things done right.  Maybe, but don't count on it.)  If not, then this may be largely a waste of time and money.

[thisyoungdad]

We filed for legal separation, primarily financially motivated. She is the one who choose collaborative as she had a very nasty prior divorce (now I know why) and I agreed prior to realizing what the hell was going on with her. I didn't realize this was an issue until it exploded 10 months ago. Prior to that even our couple's therapist missed the subtle signs. Apparently that is the wife's MO though, or it is exactly what happened with the prior relationship. Also, the ex is the one paying for both attorneys and is actually paying me spousal support. I got out of the military to finish my degree and be a stay at home dad and she is a doctor so our agreement was that I was going to stay home for one more year and so she was assured by her attorney (true or not I don't know) that the court would make her pay me spousal support so she needed to do it. So she has. I just graduated.

My attorney is highly experienced in high conflict divorces and or with people with personality issues. In fact other attorneys know she is that good, my wife's attorney knows she is that good and that it is better to not mess with her in court if possible.

My wife has in the past referred to our daughter as "her daughter" and other disturbing things.

The wife was motivated by collaborative because she thought that it would save her money since she lost so much divorcing the first one. She is still paying that loan off for 3 more years, the loan to her parents to pay off the first ex that is. Now she will be doing the same to "get rid of me" as she has called it in the past. She is driving herself to financial ruin and she just realized this so collaborative may go out the window now that she has seen the real numbers.

Her attorney does of course advocate for her but has no problem standing back while mine rips my wife a new one about her behaviors or lack of behaviors. In fact my wife has commented she feels her attorney is more on my side than hers. It may be a waste of money, but it is her money.

Originally everyone did think that this was a low conflict situation, even I did because it appeared that way. Now my attorney recently told me that she talked to the other attorney and can assure me that there is weekly "talking back off the ledge conversations" that happen between my wife and her attorney. For whatever that means. It does help my wife is highly influenced by people she puts into authority roles and she sees her lawyer like a mom.

As far as what is not filed... . a parenting plan, anything custody or parenting related with the courts. I may try to push it up but given we are doing collaborative that is part of the process. My attorney emailed me again yesterday and told me to try to hang tight, the day of reckoning is coming but to trust her that the wife is in a very precarious mental state and so it is best to not push too hard too fast since she has such financial resources she could devour me if pushed to hard. She literally said we need to play her game, doesn't mean she wins it means she thinks she wins and that as the father, and with the unspoken bias to mom's that she is trying to help me play my hand correctly because she knows it is all about timing and presentation.

I will ask my attorney about the other stuff like evals etc.

[ForeverDad]

We filed for legal separation, primarily financially motivated.

Are you sure Legal Separation is that much cheaper?

One of the first questions handled by my lawyer was whether I should choose Legal Separation (LS) or Divorce (D).

On the one hand, I have a religious background and I have a conservative view of divorce, only a last resort.

On the other hand, I was facing false allegations and I did not consider it at all safe to remain married to someone trying to block my parenting by alleging things that had the potential to put me in an orange jumpsuit for a decade or two.

But my lawyer stated that if I chose a LS at approximately the same cost and hoops of a D, got a favorable custody evaluation and then later decided to divorce, then (financial risk) I would end up paying twice and (custody risk) the original custody evaluation would be tossed out and a new one ordered and perhaps by then my ex might have learned which poor behaviors the court and hide them during the second evaluation.

My lawyer said that happened to one of his past clients.  The guy sought a divorce, he got a favorable evaluation and all that was left to do was for him to sign and file.  But then his stbxW pulled him back in, and he dropped the case.  Lawyer said he was back again in six months, and the case started over from scratch.  Unfortunately, the wife had learned to behave herself during the new evaluations and the evaluation was unfavorable for him as father, what with the unwritten default preference for mothers in many places.  Second time around doubled the costs and the spouse had learned to hide the worst misbehaviors.  Ponder that risk.

My lawyer added that in all his years of practice only two clients had chosen LS.  Why?  He said one had a wife who had a chronic illness and he just wanted his ex to be able to get health insurance.

I chose divorce.  I accepted that my then-spouse showed no indication she would improve behaviors and it was simply too risky to stay married, even from a distance.  It took two years to get a divorce, but then the marriage was over.  Yes, we have a child between us, but her finances are hers, her life is hers, her boyfriends are hers, and I am left with much less exposure of assorted risks.

You can choose which is best for you, but in my state I was told LS was the same cost as D and then if I later divorced, then I'd pay lawyers, court and ex all over again and some things such as custody would be reset and evaluations restarted all over again.

[Matt]

You can choose which is best for you, but in my state I was told LS was the same cost as D and then if I later divorced, then I'd pay lawyers, court and ex all over again and some things such as custody would be reset and evaluations restarted all over again.

That's what I was told too - you end up paying twice to get the same result.

[thisyoungdad]

The state I live in we got a LS that has a minimum 6 month wait period. We got a LS because of my need for health insurance actually. After 6 months, or whatever time is negotiated, the LS just converts to a divorce unless we stop it. I highly doubt she would stop it and I don't plan to. My lawyer spent a lot of time talking to me about both options and she agreed that if it were not for the health insurance issue we would have filed for divorce, and although the wife initiated the separation and getting attorneys and the collaborative process I got sick of her b.s and so I went to my lawyer and told her to I wanted to file. So on the paperwork it shows that I initiated the legal proceedings despite it being collaborative. I must say when I saw that my names was as the petitioner there was a certain feeling of power I had that I had not felt before in the situation. Like I wasn't her victim anymore or her door mat.

This is not exactly on topic but for you guys, how is it possible that someone with BPD can state they miss you or whatever loving thing they claim but then in the next breath just continue to act like it is all your fault? Do they actually mean what they say and just can not face reality or are they just blowing smoke? Thankfully I don't fall for that scenario anymore but even today something happened like that. It makes me sad but my guy friends would not let me get back with her so that safety net is nice. It is just frustrating.

[ForeverDad]

The cogs and wheels in a disordered person's head turn in all sorts of directions, that's just the way it is.  Mental illness does not make everyday sense.  It is what it is... . often inconsistent, often unpredictable, often unreasonable, almost always blaming or blame-shifting, demanding, controlling, entitled.

[Matt]

Near the end of our marriage, my wife's anger and accusations got worse.  At one point she threw an iron at me - hit the wall, left a big dent, and ruined the iron.

A few days later, we were going to a funeral and had to stay overnight, and I clearly remember that on that trip, she was incredibly nice to me, and when we got the kids to sleep at the hotel, very amorous.

Then just a few days later, she again became violent - swung my guitar at my head - then called the police and accused me of assault.  That incident ended our marriage... .

... . but several weeks later, she asked if I would go to counseling with her, to try to repair the marriage.  Apologized to me in private for accusing me of assault, but never would put it in writing to help my legal defense.

One thing I figured out, was that the stuff she was saying - like she often said, "I know there is something going on between you and [some woman]!" - when she said it, I think she believed it.  I think she was feeling some strong emotions - probably fear of abandonment - which went back to stuff from her childhood.  And rather than her emotions being driven by reality, for her, reality was determined by her emotions - if she felt afraid of being abandoned, then somebody must be about to abandon her, and that somebody was me.  I must be cheating on her.

Someone with BPD probably had some form of trauma as a child - something happened that left them feeling abandoned.  (My wife's mother died when she was a baby, and years later her father sent her to live with relatives, of a different race, in a different state.)  That un-healed wound is down deep, and it drives their emotions, which then convince them that something in the here-and-now must be happening.  Their emotions create their reality, instead of vice versa.

The solution, of course, is therapy, to understand what's down deep, and recognize when emotions are coming from childhood trauma and when they're coming from something here-and-now.  One study estimated that more than 80% of BPD sufferers who get the right kind of therapy are able to get better - remission not a cure.  But unfortunately most people with BPD don't embrace therapy, ever.  So it's kind of moot... .

[livednlearned]

I found the schema therapy stuff to be helpful in understanding BPD.

I promised myself I would stop trying to understand, but it's hard... . I've been divorced for 2.5 years and still find myself trying to figure it out.

Schema therapy describes different kinds of "scripts" people tend to default to when confronted with emotional fears (I believe schema was initially developed to help understand pwBPD, especially narcissism). Your stbx is cycling through different coping mechanisms as she self-soothes and copes with difficult feelings, and that process is largely based on emotional reasoning -- which, I have found, makes a pwBPD prone to bald-faced lies. What looks and sounds like lying is actually a very disordered way to cope with difficult feelings and reality (realities) that are too hard to deal with, including the ones that the pwBPD is responsible for creating. I guess we all do that to a small extent, but in BPD, it's exaggerated so much.

[Matt]

Yeah, "emotional reasoning" which LnL mentions, is what I was describing, just couldn't think of the term... . going from emotions to facts instead of the other way around.