Telling daughter she has BPD... ?

[Sabrin114]

Hi... . does anyone recommend explaining BPD to my 18 y.o. D?  She saw a psych. for several visits then stopped meds. and visits.  The psych agreed with my that she likely has BPD.  I don't even know if she would listen if I tried to explain it to her.  Of course, she insists that my husband and I are the  problem.  In all these years she has never taken any responsibility for any of her actions.  She recently admitted to me that her first sexual experience 18 mos ago was sexual assault.  She kept it in all this time.  She refuses to seek counselling or talk to me about it. Now she is blaming us for the fact that she was raped, saying it was because we are overprotective.  No logic there!

    So, does any recommend my explaining the disorder to her?  Maybe just hand her a book?  If so which one? Thanks in advance for your advice.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Verbena]

This all sounds so familiar.  When my DD was 18 (she's 28 now), a psychiatrist told me that my suspicisions of BPD were correct and that if my daughter would continue to see her, she would have told her the same thing. Around that time, my daughter returned from a few days in the psych ward with a pamphlet in her hand about BPD and admitted that she had most of the traits.  Now she has rewritten history and claims I never told her what the psychiatrist said, and that she only pretended to believe she had BPD because I had threatened to throw her out of the house if she didn't agree. She is now claiming I have BPD and a few other personality disorders.   

After the diagnosis, I bought the book Stop Walking on Eggshells.  My daughter and I both read it and discussed it.    I would recommend that book for you, but there might be a better one for your daughter.  I am so sorry about your daughter's assault.  I would keep encouraging counseling, but it has to be her choice.  Do you think there is any possibility that the assault story might not be true?  My BPD daughter has lied to me about so many things. 

[Sabrin114]

Thanks for your reply.  I did read the "Eggshells" book when she got out of the hospital.  I do, in fact, believe the assault story.  I suspected a few months after it happened.  When I questioned her directly, her answer was, "what does it matter now anyway". She stopped going to school at that point and didn't graduate.  She did get her GED though.  She does lie to me, though.  She, too, rewrites history.  I really think they believe what they are saying when they do this, although it is extremely frustrating to us!

   Was your d destructive at all?  I think every door in our house has been kicked in at least once, along with kicked out spindles on the stairs and a lot of other damage.  She has no street smarts, I can't see kicking her out, but we are prisoners in our own home.  

[Verbena]

Whether she had BPD or not, she would probably need counseling after being raped.  I hope she will seek it on her own. And again, I am so sorry this happened to her. 

I honestly don't know if they believe their own lies or not.  If so, then my DD actually believes that I shared "gross and disgusting details" of my sex life with her.  She told me this--in front of my husband (her father) and her husband--during the first of our two disastrous meetings in the last few months.  Her point was that she kept those "gross and disgusting details" to herself, so why couldn't I keep my thoughts about her problems (even though she has none, mind you) to myself?  I was so stunned I couldn't even reply.  I have never discussed my sex life with another human being, and I certainly wouldn't talk to my own DD about it.  She looked me right in the eye and seemed to believe what she was saying.  I don't get it. 

Destructive?  Oh yes.  When she rages, things get broken.  At least now they don't get broken in my house.  I completely understand how you feel like a prisoner in your own home.  I wanted to kick my daughter out so many times over the years that I couldn't count them.  My husband always said we couldn't because it would be like making a five-year old move out.  She lived with us until she was 26 and bought a house with her soon-to-be fiance.  I literally might not have survived one more week of her being here.  It was such a relief when she left.  I know that sounds terrible but I had had enough. 

I have been in your shoes  My daughter's senior year in high school was horrific, and we didn't know until the very end that she would even graduate.  She did, though, and the summer that followed (ten years ago this summer when she was 18) was one of the worst ever.  If I had known then all the drama and chaos that we would endure for the next ten years, I would have made her leave our house.  Hindsight is 20/20, though. 

My advice would be to do what I didnt do:  set some boundaries on what you're willing to put up with and follow through with them. It is your home, after all, and you have control over what goes on it. 

[Sabrin114]

I could place boundaries, but if we can't ask her to leave, what are the consequences of her not adhering to them? 

Also, I am much less likely to give in to her than my husband. Ie., he is more easily manipulated.  He is so afraid she will hurt herself, that he gives in to her more often than not.

[Verbena]

Sabrin114,

I understand completely that the fear your daughter will hurt herself allows your husband to be manipulated by her and prevents you from asking her to leave.  I can only speak from my own experience.  We did not have boundaries with our daughter and allowed her to make our life and our home a living hell for many years.  We did her no favors by allowing that.  We had the same fears you and your husband have, but we should have made her leave.  Maybe then she would have been forced to get some help. 

Maybe when your daughter is calm, you could sit down and explain what your limits are. Pick your battles carefully (I've never been good at that!) and be honest about what is tolerable and what isn't.  You might want to type her a letter explaining your feelings.  If I had saved all the letters I wrote to my daughter, they would make a good-sized book!  Looking back, all those letters made no difference whatsoever, but that's probably because there were no consequences.  She knew we wouldn't kick her out. 

I will keep you in my prayers.  I know exactly how you feel. 

[Sabrin114]

How did things turn out for your d?  Did you end up asking her to leave?  I hate to threaten that, because I know we wouldn't follow through.  Although she is 18, she is 13 inside.

[Sabrin114]

Ok, so I just asked her if she would like to read any info on BPD... . she informed me that she doesn't HAVE anything. It's just that she doesn't like us.  So much for that brilliant idea!

[Verbena]

Her reaction is not surprising.  It would have been more surprising if she had been receptive to the book.  Leave it out and maybe she'll pick it up and read it when you're not around.  If you asked her to leave, would she have a friend she could stay with?  Or a relative? 

My daughter moved out at 26 and into a home she and her now-husband bought.  She married last October and had the most beautiful wedding ever.  She is gorgeous, creative, charming, has a great job, a devoted husband, and a beautiful home.   On the surface, to people who have no clue, they appear very happy and perfect for each other.  And I think they are very happy--when she's not creating chaos.  She can only go so long between episodes.   Some are minor, some are major. She may be 28 but her behavor is no different than when she was 12. 

[Sabrin114]

No, she has no friends.  No relatives are willing to take her.  So did your daughter improve due to therapy and meds?  I just wish my d wanted to help herself, but that's not gonna happen since she "has no problems but us".  sigh.  I start with a therapist next week because I KNOW I need help!

[Verbena]

I think it's good you're starting therapy.  I never did.  My daughter had very, very minimal therapy ten years ago.  She took medication for depression willingly for about 3-4 months, and the difference in her behavior was HUGE.  Then she stopped it and I battled for years to get her back on it.  She would take it sporadically, lie about taking it.  Now she says that during that 3-4 month period, I only THOUGHT she was taking it.  So, I guess I imagined seeing her take it every day standing in my kitchen.  I really can't say she is any better than she ever was. 

Since your daughter has nowhere to go, maybe that could be your leverage?  I know you don't want to put her out on the streets, but she needs to know you have limits to what you can take.  I feel hypocritical saying that because it's not what I did, but I would do things so differently now.  My daughter was always threatening to move out.  Once she got so mad at us, she did move out when she was 24 or so.  She was only gone for a couple of months.  There was lots of drama with roommates, which was no surprise, and she told me later that she just lay in bed most of the time because she was so depressed.  She came crawling back, and we laid down some rules.  She followed them for awhile and controlled her behavior, but pretty soon it was back to the same old, same old. 

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[six]

 regarding kicking out an 18-yr-old.  My experience is that I tried to do that when my ds25 was around 20 and it was a big mistake.  for one thing, he has never forgiven or forgotten and I believe that it triggered such a strong reaction in him bec he already has such a fear of abandonment.  now he tells me that my belongings (i.e., my home) are more important to me than he is. 

I am not saying that there is never a point that could b reached when it would be the right thing to make them leave, I am just saying that it should be the last resort when everything else has been tried. 

I have lately been  experimenting with setting some boundaries for his rages and his reaction has been interesting.  he sort of asks well, what should I do instead? i told him I could not tolerate any more bullying of his younger sisters and he wanted very clear definitions of what constitutes bullying according to me.  he was trying to figure out which behavior would be crossing my boundaries.  i thought it was interesting that he did not reject the boundary, he just tried to figure out how elastic it might be.

also, I know it is hard to validate their feelings when they are out of control but I have seen some positive results with m son.  we were in such a negative space and I was feeling so hateful toward him but when I started to validate he kind of melted and he has been trying really hard to be helpful and cooperative.  I know this phase can end in a second but I am trying to enjoy the momentary peace

[Rapt Reader]

Wow, six! That's GREAT! 

Can you point Sabrin114 to what helped you the most? Did you read a favorite book, or was there a good Workshop or Article here that made the difference? I know that you were struggling with your son for awhile there, and I'm so proud of you that you made it through those weeds finally    I think, as you get further along, that it will only get better and better; the positive reinforcement of this new communication between the 2 of you will make him easier to deal with, and make it easier for you to stick to using the tools you've learned 

Here are some links that helped me in dealing with my own son, Sabrin114:

Communication using validation. What it is; how to do it

TOOLS: S.E.T. - Support, Empathy and Truth

Radical Acceptance for family members

If you keep posting, and asking questions, and poking around this website (read the Workshops, Article Reviews, and Book Reviews), things really can get better... . six and I can both vouch for that 

[six]

what has helped me?

I read Valerie Porrs book and I also took her course (in the past)

I read the boundaries book and the "I don't have to make everything better" book

what I think really helped me though, was the responses of people on this website who urged me to remember that he is in pain and that I can not change him, but I can change myself. 

I was scared to set boundaries and similarly to Sabrin114, I felt like if there was no ultimate consequence of kicking him out if he stepped over the boundaries, then the boundaries would not work.  I read the workshop on boundaries and also the book that was recommended by cloud. But when I phrased my boundary like this.  "I can not tolerate your screaming and swearing at me" I didn't threaten or give a consequence, I just said, I cant handle this anymore.  He responded "OK" 

Now I don't know if that "OK " will actually translate into any changed behavior in the future, but I think he heard me.  and I think that my being vulnerable instead of threatening was helpful to him bec he sees me as such an ogre in his life and I came to him and said I am human and you are hurting me.

I also started to see him differently.  I have been using extreme validation with him.  in the past when he made a statement as to why he is angry bec somebody wronged him, I would try to convince him  that nobody had wronged him and that he should look at it my way.  Now I just listen and I realize that blame is part of how he is wired.  he has to blame people otherwise he cant make sense of anything.  I stopped trying to convince him to look at it from my perspective.  I find that there is often a kernel of truth in his insanity. I am not correcting him, just trying to be supportive of him. 

what has also helped is that he began therapy of his own volition.  this has made him somewhat more open and receptive.  for years I tried to get him to therapy but he always said the problem was me and not him He had to come to it on his own.  I will just say to sabrin114, the hardest years for us were from 17- 22 or 23.  I didn't think my marriage would survive it and I constantly was trying to get him out of the house.  valerie porrs course was a turning point for me bec that was when I realized he really couldn't help himself and he wasn't doing it on purpose.  also while getting hjim out of the house would have given me a short term gain, the long term loss of relationship with him would have been so much worse. 

sabrin114, I wish you all the success possible in what you are going thru.  keep posting here bec there is so much wisdom and experience here and every bit helps.  somewhere deep inside her she is in so much pain and if you can just reach that place things can turn around .   

[Rapt Reader]

Sabrin114... . what I think really helped me though, was the responses of people on this website who urged me to remember that he is in pain and that I can not change him, but I can change myself. This advice from six is really everything in a nutshell, I think, for a great start to healing. For you and your daughter. Everything six has written here is really worthwhile and helpful, and something all of us need to read and remember... . Thanks, six! 

And, good luck Sabrin114~~we are all pulling for you... . keep posting and reading and asking questions; things really can get better  

[Sabrin114]

Thank you both so much for your input.  How can I find about about Valerie Porr's course? 

[six]

tara4BPD is the website

[Sabrin114]

can't seem to find that website... . do you have the entire address.  I tried .com and .org with no luck. Thanks

[six]

tara4BPD.org you can also google Valerie porr

[Laurie55]

Okay, been reading all these wonderful and supportive replies.  We have struggled with our DD since kindergarten.  Rages began very early (by 2nd grade) and by 9th grade she was blaming us for all her problems.  Having had another child battle addiction (two treatments and now, at 28, has been sober for 5 years... . praise God in gratitude), I was somewhat prepared for how to react to the chaos that ensued in our home for 4 very, very long years.  First, she was a lesbian (9-10th grades), then she had an affair with a 45 yo, married man (at 18, mind you, a senior in high school).   Words cannot describe the hell we went thru.  However, we would not allow the affair, so she stormed out of our home 4 months after turning 18.  Parents who believed her side of the story, never asked us, welcomed her into their home.  Angry as I was at them, I was very, very glad she had a safe place to be.  She lived out this fantasy love and he used her, but once they are legal there is nothing that can be done.  She graduated from High school and is now in college.  They are no longer 'together', but are still in contact.  In her eyes, it is/was true love; he can do no wrong.  Hopefully someday she will see how wrong he was.  Anyway, we drew a line in the sand.  Agreed to pay for college, room and board, but she has to earn all other spending money.  If I want to, I buy her things; if I don't feel like it, I don't.  She asks my opinion on something, I tell her exactly what I think.  She does NOT have a key to our home.  She was told she has BPD, at first accepted it because she liked the attention.  But then, she decided she didn't have anything wrong with her and it was all our fault.  My heart broke years ago over this.  I will never be able to trust her... . she will use things I say against me.  We pay for an apartment.  She is on a lower dose of antidepressants... . been on them since 7th grade. I feel very sad for her.  As difficult as it has been for us, I know she must be sad inside and lonely.  She is hurt a lot by people... . mostly girls.  She just doesn't 'connect the dots' appropriately; doesn't read people well.  Anyway, my point is you can tell your daughter she has BPD, but it probably won't make a difference.  This will play out.  My daughter, at least, is a survivor.  she lies about us and manipulates her way into good grades (majoring in psychology, of course) and into people wanting to care for her.  She works hard at a school job... . even got promoted.  I am glad for her.  I have not compromised my values or standards.  We were shaky during high school years mainly because we were so shocked at her behavior.  Now, however, we are who we are and she will suffer the consequences of her decisions.  and THAT is the best decision we ever made.  I suggest that if her behavior shows you she is a survivor, you are probably safe in drawing a line in the sand regarding what you will and will not accept.  We do them no favors spoiling them and catering to them.  My daughter is much, much better today.  We let her leave (she was 18; couldn't stop her) and she is making her way.  Our relationship is the best it has been in years.  May not always be an honest one, but I am not sure all 19 yo are honest with their parents.  God bless you... . good luck!

[Sabrin114]

I can't thank you enough for sharing your story.  It sounds like things are working out for you, which gives me hope.  My daughter has tried antidepressants twice (serotonin imbalance and panic attacks on both sides of the family). Both times she took them for 2 weeks, not nearly long enough to kick in as I'm sure you know.  Both times her excuse has been that she doesn't like medication.

     Girls are also mean to her... . she has no girlfriends at all.  So I am her companion until she decides she hates me and I am an awful parent... . yet again.  My heart aches for her as I know this disorder is not her fault.  I just don't understand that she does not want to help herself. 

     Again, thanks for sharing you story.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[JulySky]

Verbena:  I think you're sharing very valuable advice:  We refused to allow our daughter to continue to sow discord and create chaos in our happy home.  She actually thrived when she had to make her own way.

Equally important, the rest of us did, too.

Does Sabrin114 realize that her daughter's stories may be make believe?