to get police involved or not?

[bumble bee]

My sister has BPD. She doesn't know it, isn't being treated for it and doesn't think she has any problems. Everyone else are the ones with the problems.

A little background before I get to my question:

For many years both of my parents enabled my sister. For the past 8 months my mom has started establishing and maintaining boundaries with her. It's been helpful for my mom and I've seen my mom become healthier. However, she's dealing with a lot of feelings of guilt and also grieving the loss of a daughter that she gave birth to who "no longer exists" and that she doesn't "know the woman inside of the body of my daughter".

My father, on the other hand continues to enable my sister, sticks up for her and says that my mom "exaggerates". This is the exact accusation that my sister makes of my mom so he has basically bought into her assessment of the situation rather than seeing things for himself. My sister has successfully been able to split my parents and got her father on her side. She's never had me on her side and hates me with a passion that is almost homicidal at times. She's told my mom many times that she wishes that I were dead. If intent to kill could've killed me, then I would've been dead from her hate a long time ago.

Ok, on to the situation that lead me to the question in regards to police. My sister was visiting my elderly, weak, sick mother a few days ago. She flew into one of her rages, that was particularly bad according to my mom. She cursed at mom in horrible anger and at one point was standing over mom while mom was in bed. Mom said that her eyes were red like fire and she actually feared for her own safety. Mom was and is now scared of her. I asked mom is she hit her or touched her. She said no, but mom fears that she will. She told my sister to leave her home. My sister refused to leave. My mom asked her to leave again. My sister refused. Eventually, after more cursing my sister switched moods and told my mom that she'd go get groceries for her. Mom said OK, happy to get her out of the house. This happened two days ago. Mom called police today to find out what her options are to be able to stay safe.

Police said that they can be there with mom when my sister comes to pick up her stuff (in 3 days) and tell my sister to return mom's key to her and that she is no longer allowed on the property, that if she comes back on that property, then she would be trespassing and that they'd arrest her. Mom's been concerned about her safety and my sister coming back to her place to harass her even if she got the locks changed. Police help would resolve that issue. However, mom is torn b/c she knows that if she makes this move, that my sister and her relationship will be permanently severed. She also is concerned about my safety as my sister has access to a gun and hates me so much and even though this action would be my mom's choice, my sister would most likely blame me. She's never been violent with anyone before but the potential is definitely there and her anger seems to be esculating.

What do you recommend? Police involvement? Mom just telling my sister to not come back and state the reason why and change the locks? Police said that they could only help mom if they were there as a witness. Otherwise, if my mom decides to verbally establish boundaries with my sister without police involvement, then mom was on her own unless my sister actually physically assaults her.

Thank you for any input that you may have to give as my mom only has a few days to make a decision.

[Matt]

Call the court, or go to the courthouse, and ask more questions.  There are probably some options you haven't heard about yet.

(I'm not a lawyer, by the way, and nobody here can give you legal advice.  Just telling you what I've been told - how it works where I live.)

In some places there is a thing called a "restraining order".  Where I live it's called an "order of protection".  I think it's pretty much the same thing, just a different name.  You can go to the court and fill out the paperwork, and tell the judge that you are afraid your sister might harm your mom or yourself.  Maybe you will have to do one RO and your mom another, or maybe both on one form.  It's key to say, "I am afraid she might hurt me or hurt my mom."  You don't have to accuse your sister of anything she didn't do, just explain what happened, just like you have here, and the judge will probably approve the RO, to reduce the risk of somebody being hurt.

Either your sister will recognize, at some point, that she needs help, and she'll get the help, and then she will get better, or she won't.  Most likely she won't, but that's her choice.  People with BPD and other psychological disorders who get professional help usually improve, but nobody can make her choose to get help.  By setting this boundary - getting an RO - you are protecting yourself and your mom.  How your sister deals with it is her choice.

[bumble bee]

Thank you. Yes, it's called a Restraining Order here also and to get one, we'd have to go to court. I know how to do that. The police option that I described would actually be quicker and more effective as she'd be immediately arrested if she came back to the property.

That isn't my question though. My question is whether or not mom should do it. It's a pretty extreme move that will have long lasting negative relational effects. She will basically be going from setting small limits to a huge, drastic move. My sister didn't actually hit her nor threaten to hit her. She was verbally and emotionally abusive and mom felt threatened. Would a more reasonable step be for mom to just set limits of telling her that she can't come to her home anymore and change the locks? In the reader's opinion, what would be the best thing to do that would keep mom safe while also still being able to have some sort of a relationship with her daughter?

[Matt]

I guess it depends on your mom's perception of your sister's likely behavior (and the advice you give your mom about that).

What I mean is, if such a clear statement - maybe an e-mail so it's in writing - ":)o not come to my house unless I invite you." - if that will work it would be less extreme.  But if you and your mom don't think that will be effective, going the legal route - through the court or the police - may be needed to get through to her.

I had an experience kind of like this.  After we separated - and my wife had been violent with me a couple of times - I was traveling, and my adult stepson - her biological son was living with me, so he was home alone.  My wife came over - she knew I was gone - and wanted to come in, supposedly to look for my younger son's homework.  Actually, he had his homework - she was looking for financial information she could use in the divorce case.

My stepson let her in - later he apologized to me for doing that - and she went through the house, looking through stacks of paper to see what she could find.  I told me lawyer and he said to write her a very clear e-mail - ":)o not come into my house without my permission.  If you do I will consult my attorney and take appropriate legal action."  He said if that didn't work we would get an order of protection.  But she didn't do it anymore;  my lawyer sent the note to my wife's lawyer, who probably told her she better act right.

In my case, both my lawyer and I judged that the milder, step-by-step approach was best.  If you and your mom truly believe that your sister might become violent, I would probably say, skip the halfway measures and take legal action to let your sister know that if she comes to your house or your mom's she will be at risk of going to jail.

One other option is to get an audio recording device or video recording device - maybe your phone has those features.  Find out if it's legal in your state;  in some states it's only legal if you let her know that if she comes to your place you will record everything she does and says.  Then be prepared (and maybe help your mom prepare) so you'll be ready to capture everything if she comes over again, and give that recording to the police or court.

Trying to play nice, to maintain the relationship - if your sister has BPD or another psychological disorder, this won't work.  Most of us here have tried it - I let myself be treated badly for 12 years and it only made things worse.

[livednlearned]

You psychologically want to minimize the escalation of her rage, and yet want maximum safety for your mom. I understand the dilemma.

There are some things you can do to protect your mom without triggering your sister. Although, my experience is that pwBPD get triggered by anything and everything -- though I do understand the hope that we have some semblance of control, even though I have never seen much in the way of evidence that this is true.

+Install a surveillance system on the property -- you don't have to say that the reason is to monitor your sister.

+Set up some kind of mechanism that your mom can use to discreetly call for help, or a way to call you without tipping off your sister

+Change the locks (asking for the key back isn't going to prevent your sister from making a copy).

+Hire someone to be there at times your mom is likely to be alone with your sister

As for the restraining order, you might want to read Gavin de Becker's book, The Gift of Fear. He has an interesting section in there about the effectiveness of restraining orders against people with the kind of profile many people with BPD have. Last summer, I was terrified that my n/BPDxh was going to kill my son and then himself. I chose to not get a restraining order because there is a lot of evidence that ROs do escalate violence. Instead, I put every safety precaution in place that I possibly could.

I would also recommend talking to a therapist about the exact kind of BPD traits your sister has and how that might influence her potential for violence. My T has seen her share of crazy, and very matter of factly told me that narcissists don't tend to commit suicide, and they don't tend to create scenes in which they look bad (meaning, he wasn't likely to come to my door and get in a fight in front of my neighbors). You need that level of insight to help you weigh how dangerous your sister is. A lot of people with BPD rage, and are abusive, and threaten and bully and intimidate, but I don't think as many of them are prone to violence. If your sister is sociopathic, then perhaps you have a different situation on your hands. Only a T can really help you, since you'll be able to detail the specific traits you're dealing with.

A therapist can also help you see patterns in your sister's behavior -- for example, it sounds like she might be experiencing an extinction burst because your mom is standing up for herself. A good T can help your mom think strategically about what to do when rage escalates, when to fold, if that's the right thing to do, and when to stand her ground.

[Matt]

Yeah, "The Gift Of Fear" has a lot of very solid and practical information - great book if there is anybody unstable in your life.

[bumble bee]

You psychologically want to minimize the escalation of her rage, and yet want maximum safety for your mom. I understand the dilemma.

There are some things you can do to protect your mom without triggering your sister. Although, my experience is that pwBPD get triggered by anything and everything -- though I do understand the hope that we have some semblance of control, even though I have never seen much in the way of evidence that this is true.

+Install a surveillance system on the property -- you don't have to say that the reason is to monitor your sister.

+Set up some kind of mechanism that your mom can use to discreetly call for help, or a way to call you without tipping off your sister

+Change the locks (asking for the key back isn't going to prevent your sister from making a copy).

+Hire someone to be there at times your mom is likely to be alone with your sister

As for the restraining order, you might want to read Gavin de Becker's book, The Gift of Fear. He has an interesting section in there about the effectiveness of restraining orders against people with the kind of profile many people with BPD have. Last summer, I was terrified that my n/BPDxh was going to kill my son and then himself. I chose to not get a restraining order because there is a lot of evidence that ROs do escalate violence. Instead, I put every safety precaution in place that I possibly could.

I would also recommend talking to a therapist about the exact kind of BPD traits your sister has and how that might influence her potential for violence. My T has seen her share of crazy, and very matter of factly told me that narcissists don't tend to commit suicide, and they don't tend to create scenes in which they look bad (meaning, he wasn't likely to come to my door and get in a fight in front of my neighbors). You need that level of insight to help you weigh how dangerous your sister is. A lot of people with BPD rage, and are abusive, and threaten and bully and intimidate, but I don't think as many of them are prone to violence. If your sister is sociopathic, then perhaps you have a different situation on your hands. Only a T can really help you, since you'll be able to detail the specific traits you're dealing with.

A therapist can also help you see patterns in your sister's behavior -- for example, it sounds like she might be experiencing an extinction burst because your mom is standing up for herself. A good T can help your mom think strategically about what to do when rage escalates, when to fold, if that's the right thing to do, and when to stand her ground.










I think there are some variables that might influence my decision if I were in your shoes. Is your sister highly narcissistic?

It's hard for me to know what is "highly narcissistic" vs normal BPD narcissism. Everything revolves around my sister. She has to be the center of conversation. If she's not, she looks bored or irritated and soon will change the topic to be about herself. She's controling so that everything is about herself. She's very often bragging about how great she is in her profession and how many men have the hots for her. She is actually good in her job but doesn't get along with coworkers and I don't think that men have the hots for her. She's overweight and mean and can't keep a man to save her life.

Thank you for your practical advice. Unfortunately, due to lack of finances, we can't afford a survailance system nor to hire anyone. Plus, mom lives in an apartment complex so wouldn't be allowed to anyway. We can change the locks though and will do that unless mom chooses the option of having police there when my sister comes to get her stuff. In that case, police will force sister to give key back. She won't then be able to make a copy of key. We can certainly set up her phone to call 911.

Can you please explain to me what an "extinction burst" is as that information could be very helpful for my mom who is in a new role of actually establishing and maintaining boundaries with my sister for the 1st time in her life. I'm proud of my mom but she's on new ground.

Also, since I last posted my Aunt called my mom stating that my sister called her and told her that she'd "lost it with my mom" but then blammed my mom for her (my sister's) actions saying that she only did it b/c mom had "made me so mad". It would seem that she's feeling some sort of bad feelings about the incident from two days ago, although not at all repentant. Any thoughts on this? Given that, would you be more inclined, less inclined to proceed with police escorted "departure" for my sister? A part of me thinks that if there is some sort of acknowledgement within her that things went poorly and if she has a fairly quick consequence that is clearly related to her behavior, then maybe she'd be more likely to get help. ?

Thank you both for your input.

I'll check out that book too. I've never heard of it before.

[Matt]

"Extinction burst" - somebody gets extra-worked-up and then kind of flames out - runs out of energy and either goes away, or takes a nap, or somehow loses interest.  Sometimes the worst is right before a quiet period.

Blaming someone else for her actions - my BPD wife did this too - "You made me do that" - "I only did X because you did Y" - a way to avoid responsibility for her own choices and actions.  My view is, it's a clear signal that she's not going to change - when she says "I only did it because Mom made me mad" she might as well say "I'm going to do it again" or "I won't control my behavior any better tomorrow than I did yesterday."

The only way to believe someone is going to get the help she needs is if she gets it and her behavior gets better.  Promises don't mean anything;  even seeing a professional might not mean anything unless she stays with it for a long time and really makes changes.  The best thing - but the hardest - is to accept that her behavior is how it is, and it's not likely to change - whatever she has done in the past, she'll probably continue those behavior patterns in the future.

[ForeverDad]

An extinction burst is a person's attempt to overwhelm the targeted person who set up a new or firmer boundary.  It's meant to intimidate or pressure the targeted person into going back to prior appeasing behaviors.  In this case your mother is a former enabler but now the target.  Your father is apparently still an enabler, but he should be convinced to support your mother's belated boundaries, better late than never.

I agree your mother needs to do something, doing nothing or doing little isn't working.  Sadly, appeasement doesn't work, not long term.  Your sister needs to become convinced that her days of domination with zero consequences are over, otherwise she will just keep trying to stamp out resistance and opposition, as she sees it.  So three can't be any weakness in her newfound boundaries, and the police can support your mother however appropriate, warnings, arrest, whatever.  Your mother's precise strategy depends largely on the various factors of the situation.  She should have various options in mind, as in Plan A, Plan B, Plan C, etc.  She may need more than one strategy, or perhaps a blend or combination.

Matt and LivednLearned both wrote solid advice.  Frankly, it's down to your mother or your sister, they can't both get their way.  Your sister needs to face normal consequences just like any other adult.  She may behave as an entitled brat of a child, but she's an adult, time for coddling is long past.  If it means that her consequences catch up with her, so be it.  She needs to learn what her limits must be.  She may never change, she may never seek therapy or counseling, but she can learn not to do the major No-No's.  It may take a few lectures from the police, a few trips with the police or even appearances in court, but she can learn some desperately needed limits even if she never likes them.

However, be careful not to weaken boundaries.  If your sister senses weakness, she will feel justified to push the boundaries more and more.  It's the nature of the beast.

[Thunderstruck]

It seems to me like your mother should be able to get her involuntarily committed and diagnosed and hopefully in therapy. In my state I think the requirement is that she makes threats of harm against herself or others to be committed. Maybe with a formal diagnosis, establishing protection would be easier (and it might illuminate the issue to your family members that are in denial). Not sure how this would bode for the mother/daughter relationship though.

[bumble bee]

It seems to me like your mother should be able to get her involuntarily committed and diagnosed and hopefully in therapy. In my state I think the requirement is that she makes threats of harm against herself or others to be committed. Maybe with a formal diagnosis, establishing protection would be easier (and it might illuminate the issue to your family members that are in denial). Not sure how this would bode for the mother/daughter relationship though.

Thanks for your feedback. In my state someone can't be involuntarily committed unless they are a threat to themselves or others. She did not physically hit my mother or threaten to do so. She cursed and cursed and cursed and screamed and stood over mom in a threatening manner while mom was in her bed. However, this behavior isn't commitment worthy here.

[bumble bee]

An extinction burst is a person's attempt to overwhelm the targeted person who set up a new or firmer boundary.  It's meant to intimidate or pressure the targeted person into going back to prior appeasing behaviors.  In this case your mother is a former enabler but now the target.  Your father is apparently still an enabler, but he should be convinced to support your mother's belated boundaries, better late than never.

I agree your mother needs to do something, doing nothing or doing little isn't working.  Sadly, appeasement doesn't work, not long term.  Your sister needs to become convinced that her days of domination with zero consequences are over, otherwise she will just keep trying to stamp out resistance and opposition, as she sees it.  So three can't be any weakness in her newfound boundaries, and the police can support your mother however appropriate, warnings, arrest, whatever.  Your mother's precise strategy depends largely on the various factors of the situation.  She should have various options in mind, as in Plan A, Plan B, Plan C, etc.  She may need more than one strategy, or perhaps a blend or combination.

Matt and LivednLearned both wrote solid advice.  Frankly, it's down to your mother or your sister, they can't both get their way.  Your sister needs to face normal consequences just like any other adult.  She may behave as an entitled brat of a child, but she's an adult, time for coddling is long past.  If it means that her consequences catch up with her, so be it.  She needs to learn what her limits must be.  She may never change, she may never seek therapy or counseling, but she can learn not to do the major No-No's.  It may take a few lectures from the police, a few trips with the police or even appearances in court, but she can learn some desperately needed limits even if she never likes them.

However, be careful not to weaken boundaries.  If your sister senses weakness, she will feel justified to push the boundaries more and more.  It's the nature of the beast.

Thank you. Your explanation was helpful. I read it to my mother and I think that getting collective advice from "others" is helpful to her.

At present, she is choosing to tell my sister on Thur that she can't stay at her place anymore and why. She's planning on doing it without police being present. I don't necessarily agree with this decision but I've chosen to not tell my mom what to do. It's her choice. A part of me wants to be there to help protect my mom from any outbursts by my sister. However, mom hasn't asked me to do that and my sister would most likely feel ganged up on which would make the situation worse. Instead, mom will have her phone with her and position her body close to an exit in case she feels unsafe and needs to leave should my sister esculate to the point of mom feeling unsafe.

Feel free to offer your input on my choice of not being there. Would you do the same if your elderly, weak mother was in this situation?

[livednlearned]

At present, she is choosing to tell my sister on Thur that she can't stay at her place anymore and why. She's planning on doing it without police being present. I don't necessarily agree with this decision but I've chosen to not tell my mom what to do. It's her choice. A part of me wants to be there to help protect my mom from any outbursts by my sister. However, mom hasn't asked me to do that and my sister would most likely feel ganged up on which would make the situation worse. Instead, mom will have her phone with her and position her body close to an exit in case she feels unsafe and needs to leave should my sister esculate to the point of mom feeling unsafe.

Feel free to offer your input on my choice of not being there. Would you do the same if your elderly, weak mother was in this situation?

Gavin de Becker, the author of Gift of Fear, also created a tool to help you assess or predict whether your sister will become violent: https://www.mosaicmethod.com/

If your mother decides to confront your sister without anyone there, I think she needs to work through a better safety plan than what you have mentioned. Find out if she can covertly record (audio or video) without getting consent from your sister -- laws are different by state. Have the recorder on for the duration of your sister's visit. If something bad happens, you know that your sister will lie about her role.

Ask your mother if you can be in the apartment complex, if not in the apartment itself while your sister is there. Have your mom call you so you can listen in remotely -- set up signal words your mom can use if she starts to feel concerned about her safety. One signal if she wants you to help her, and another signal if she wants you to call the police.

Read Gift of Fear before Thursday if you can. I have found that people who live relatively safe lives find it scary, but people who have someone scary in their lives, or live in unsafe areas, find it helpful, even comforting.

At present, she is choosing to tell my sister on Thur that she can't stay at her place anymore and why.

And last -- help your mom practice for this. My advice is that your mom tells your sister she needs to give her the key. Period. No explanation, no reason, no budging. "I want the key to my apartment. If you wish to visit me, call first to notify me."

Period. Then ask her to leave. If she starts to yell, tell her the neighbors have been instructed to call the police if they hear screaming.

I wish you much luck and strength. Please let us know how things went -- I'll be thinking about you and your mom.

LnL

[livednlearned]

Feel free to offer your input on my choice of not being there. Would you do the same if your elderly, weak mother was in this situation?

I think you are answering this question by asking it. You want to protect her. Do you need her permission?