How do I get her disorder out in court?

[MarkMo]

My wife has left and is currently living with a man over twice her age. She has since served me with a restraining order because she did not want her new bf to know how badly she lied in order to get him to take her in.

I have since filed for divorce, long story as why since and not before, but my attorney is waiting to see what my wife wants to negotiate about really before having to get into her possibly BPD. Mainly, she is doing this because of cost. While I understand that, my therapist and a few others I have spoken to are saying that while my children need to see their mother, she should not be allowed to see them for an entire weekend ever other weekend. I had told them about the neglect and between that, other issues she has, and the BPD the children may be adversely affected if even exposed on a semi regular basis.

Is there any other way besides hiring a forensic psychologist to get this stuff out on the record or for her to be seen by a specialist so that she can be properly evaluated? I and others believe that she has a severe case of BPD with definite sociopathic tendencies. What can I do if the money isn't there?

[livednlearned]

What ages are your kids? Who has first-hand knowledge of their neglect?

My L gave me the same advice you got. My ex is N/BPD, bipolar, and an alcoholic, and my L said to document the pattern of his behavior. There are several ways you can do that. The first is to document everything. Everything.

I've been doing that -- 2.5 years into my custody case (trial is next week), and I'm so, so, so grateful for that documentation. I've needed it many times to save me money with my L, helping her with the timeline, responding to N/BPDx's false allegations. Having email evidence is gold. Avoid the phone if you can and try to get everything in text, and make sure you archive it well. I used Gmail and tagged everything, and entered significant events into a special "LEGAL" calendar I created in Google calendar, which makes it easy to enter, and then you can print it out as an agenda so that it's easy to see the timeline.

You can also use a deposition -- which will cost you roughly $1500. If you have good documentation, you can save yourself money by preparing any documentation for your L so she doesn't need her paralegal to do it for you. She uses that material to help her prep for the deposition. I had a 3-inch 3-ring binder filled with emails, all categorized and tagged according to different patterns: alcohol, stonewalling, abuse/name-calling/anger, and false allegations. The transcription costs for a deposition can run between $500-$1000, plus your L's hourly fees prepping and deposing. Depositions are a particularly useful tool for nons because pwBPD tend to be... . loose with the facts, and depositions are a valuable way to demonstrate that to the court.  

If you do get a psych eval, you'll also need an expert witness to explain why a dx of BPD is so hard on the kids.

Prepare for your divorce to cost money no matter which way you look at it -- make it very clear to your L that you want to save money as much as possible. The longer you're at this, the more opportunities you'll see to save money. Write up the motions for your L, for example. I haven't done that, but some members here have gone pro se and there are lots of friends here who can share their experiences with pro se or pro tempe. I'm neither, but my L likes me and will say, "If you prepare this for me, it will say you $800, otherwise I can do it."

A lot of us are broke. I'm in debt like I've never been before, which is awful, but trial is next week for me and my ex has dysregulated so badly that I'm hoping the judge will award legal fees. I may never see it, but it's worth asking at this point.

Last -- the reason why Ls don't focus on the dx is because blaming the mental illness can backfire. You want to focus on the behaviors and patterns -- that is a less contentious strategy, although others here can chime in about how using the dx in court helped (or didn't). In my case, my ex was only recently diagnosed, and it's just one factor among many being used to determine his inability to coparent, and his ill-effects on S12.

[mil2bpd]

Excellent suggestions. We (meaning my DS with his uBPDw) are in the very beginning phases of this and I already am saving all emails, told DS to be sure to keep all credit card statements, log all arguments with dates/what was said, etc.

I once heard there are attorneys who are more familiar with dealing with PDs but how does one go about locating such specialized divorce lawyers?

Good luck to both of you.

[ForeverDad]

I've been in and out of family court since 2005.  Courts in my area seem to avoid labeling anyone with a specific diagnosis.  Most courts apparently prefer to stick to the behaviors, not what is behind them.  And you can't throw a PD possibility out there since courts don't want litigants to 'play doctor'.  (Even if you were a qualified professional, they'd require a neutral professional to do an independent assessment.)

Although your lawyer is correct to try to seek an equitable settlement, accept that it's unlikely to get a quick resolution.  Often a settlement doesn't occur until the uncooperative spouse feels there is no other option left but to settle.  So your leverage, if any, most likely will be strongest just before a hearing or trial, with no more opportunities to delay or obstruct, when your spouse might settle.

However, keep in mind that when it comes to custody and parenting time, the court making a decision is often a better outcome than settling, the reason is that court, as blind to the issues as it seems, is generally less unfair than your spouse is.

It is good to get the professionals (therapists, CPS, etc) involved in the case quickly, their input is generally helpful in court.  Your claims and your spouse's claims may be considered largely hearsay and effectively ignored, but the professionals get the court's ear.  Often the court will claim not to be expert on our issues and default to making 'standard' decisions which too often default to the other spouse's favor.

[livednlearned]

I once heard there are attorneys who are more familiar with dealing with PDs but how does one go about locating such specialized divorce lawyers?

You might try Googling "high-conflict divorce" or "parental alienation" in your area to find a divorce lawyer with experience dealing with PDs. If you find one, ask how they handled the case, what were the outcomes, how long did it take, what kinds of costs, what strategies worked, what didn't. You might also find therapists who deal with BPD or NPD -- I found my attorney through my therapist, and she knew I needed someone with that additional expertise.

Have you read Splitting: Divorcing BPD/NPD Spouses by Bill Eddy? If not, it's a must read. I also recommend Divorce Poison by Richard Warshak, and Don't Alienate the Kids, also by Bill Eddy. Alienation seems to go hand-in-hand with high-conflict divorces, and you want to arm yourself with as much knowledge as you can so that your wife doesn't alienate the kids against you.

Mainstream wisdom says don't put the kids in the middle, but in high-conflict divorces, the pwBPD almost always does that, so you need to follow a different line of wisdom and learn how to deal with lies told to your kids. Start learning how to validate your kids feelings, because children of pwBPD get a very distorted idea about what "self" means, and validating is one way to help them learn that they can be themselves, at least with you. It's a powerful antidote to alienation.

I wish you well -- you're fortunate to have this board. It's been a source of priceless help and support for me.

[MarkMo]

First off, thank you everyone for the advice.

I made sure that I got an attorney that dealt with PDs. Even though I only did minimal research at the time, I have know something had been wrong for years and I wish I knew about BPD earlier and maybe we could have done something.

I have been documenting everything lately. I have gotten all of the bank statements and I have phone records and I have all over her texts still on my phone. She does not email much at all.

I may have to do my own work as you have said because I have a feeling this is not going to be easy. Ever since she was cornered by her bf and chose to live with him, she has thrown me away and has started going to darker and darker places. Its almost like since she is now engrossed in her new life, that she can do whatever she wants to me with now recourse from me.

I already emailed my attorney and expressed my concerns because I really don't know what is next. I am getting scared for myself and my children. I feel that there is nothing she will not do to get anything she wants even if she truly does not want it. For example, if she feels that having partial custody will look better to her bf and family, then she will fight for that even though she has had no desire to spend any time with them in the last 6 weeks. She is just falling fast and I don't want me and the kids to be brought down with her.

[ForeverDad]

You may want to consider various strategies that may avoid some of the conflict.  She may be messed up, but she's not dumb.  However, you know some of her patterns and what triggers her - and what might calm her.  In other words, your priority is the children and yourself too.  Can you or her lawyer throw her a bone, so to speak, at the right time?  As you wrote, she's more concerned about looking normal than parenting.  So some judicious negotiating or even compromises might be in order at some point.  (Yes, pwBPD generally can't negotiate but at the right time you can offer her things in such a way that she'll accept them, generally you have to make her feel she 'won' something.)

For example, if your lawyer says the court would be resistant to you getting full or sole custody, at least not yet, that means they would be considering joint custody.  The problem with that is that she might object to or obstruct major decisions for the children.  You want to avoid multiple returns to family court every time she's obstinate.  If that is the case, then you can try an end run and still get what you need.  You could seek to have "decision making" or "tie breaker" status.  She would still get her "public face" as mother, but you'd basically have sole custody for legal issues.  The major difference between the two is that with sole you make the decision and inform her whereas with DM/TB you try to get her to agree and then go ahead anyway.  See?  She gets what she wants and you get what you and the children need.  Well, at least it's an idea for you to consider.

[MarkMo]

Thank you, that is definitely something to consider and sounds like a very good idea. I guess what I mean about being scared is that has already filed a false RO. With her hatred and uncaring behavior increasing, I am starting to worry what she could do next. She may leave me alone but I feel that once she is served with the divorce papers then stuff might start hitting the fan.

I am scared that she might do something else or more things and I don't know what that will be. I have never been involved with the law before and I have had the police called on me and now a RO.

All in all I have no problem with joint legal custody. I am not trying to eliminate her from making any decisions or being informed of anything. However, I am now truly feeling that I was sole residential custody and she can call me when she wants to see the kids and I can call her when the kids want to see her. I hate to do this to a mother but this is not a typical situation. I truly feel like she is damaging to them.

I have one other question. If I am away from the house and she knows that, can she just come to the house and take things? She has completely left but she mentioned the other week when she was on a tirade and wanted a divorce, that she wanted to come in and go through things to take "her half".

[catnap]

I have one other question. If I am away from the house and she knows that, can she just come to the house and take things? She has completely left but she mentioned the other week when she was on a tirade and wanted a divorce, that she wanted to come in and go through things to take "her half".

I would definitely change the locks (or re-key) on the house, if your attorney advises that you can do so.

[livednlearned]

I have one other question. If I am away from the house and she knows that, can she just come to the house and take things? She has completely left but she mentioned the other week when she was on a tirade and wanted a divorce, that she wanted to come in and go through things to take "her half".

Yes she can. It will be counted as an "advance" toward the financial settlement. Except everything will be valued at Craig's List prices, so any valuable furniture will count as $100, etc. It's very common, and if she does it, the courts won't bat an eye. They see it all the time.

My L actually said to me, "I'm not advising this, but I want you to know that I have had clients who come home to empty houses, and the consequences are almost nil."

So I did. I took all of S12's stuff, my stuff, and furniture that was mine prior to the marriage. I arranged to do it while N/BPDx was at work, and a moving company helped me get it done in less than 3 hours. They knew actually what was happening, and said they see it all the time.

[thisyoungdad]

Thanks for posting this. I am thankful that my attorney has worked a lot with people with PD and so from the very first time that we met (before we even were getting divorced, she must have sensed something was up though) she had me documenting EVERYTHING going on that seemed out of place. I didn't do a google calendar but I have a calendar and in fact in the next few days my goal is to get it onto one spreadsheet calendar, go back and get all the papers, documents, emails, text messages, everything and get it organized in one place. Thankfully I have a lot of paper trail evidence to support that at best the soon to be ex has extremely poor judgement. Although not organized yet, I have felt so reassured knowing that despite the new accusations and slander of me being BPD and whatever other flavor of the day she chooses, that I have this documented proof of the unsafe behaviors and it is a pattern that has escalated.

Most reassuring though is knowing that she has nothing of the kind on me because I didn't do anything like that and frankly she isn't that organized even if I had. Someone also pointed out once it is the pattern that matters, we all get angry on occasion and do things but the pattern is what shows that there is a problem.  I think that has helped keep me sane at times, knowing that I have dates, times, places, witnesses, statements etc and that it is a pattern. It helps me not worry about that one time this happened or that happened with me because it is an isolated incident and mild in comparison really. 

No one is labeling her specifically with BPD but everyone is aware it is a PD we are dealing with, and as my attorney said once that is all that matters, the court cares about facts and so I need facts and from the facts they can see it is a PD but they don't care what PD it is that is not really relevant to them.

It was just helpful to read how others dealt with or are dealing with this unfortunate phase of things. It makes a really crappy thing seem a tiny bit less crappy knowing others are also walking the path.

[thisyoungdad]

Markmo- I am in a similar situation in regards to full time residential custody and my feelings on it. I feel horrible thinking about it even, and I wish it were not this way that I had to think about it and yet things continue to get worse and worse. For us we are dealing with the financial aspect of the "legal separation" heading to divorce and that has caused her to be crazier. Plus our little one is having a birthday next week which would be the one year anniversary of what precipitated her basically having her big ass break from reality (that may not be a BPD thing but that is what happened from what it seems to everyone) which led to hear leaving 4-5 weeks later. So it is not a pretty time here and I am feeling pretty nervous myself. Yet as I just posted, I am trying hard to rest on the fact that I have the emails, the text messages, the notes, the calendars with dates, times, places etc, and I now have a couple pictures of things that just go to prove further her inability to make safe decisions for our child. It is so hard though, I never ever thought I would have to even consider primary custody issues or that the mother of my sweet child may not be fit to share 50/50 with me. I would never, and in fact continue to be the one who is always generous with there is a request to see mom or what not, versus the other way around. So she wouldn't ever have to worry she would not have access. I am not sure how that is going to be brought up though. It is going to be a very sensitive subject for sure. I kinda dread it.

[ForeverDad]

As much as it sounds just like what most of the other spouses who are disordered, diagnosed or not, it is wise to seek and get as much parenting as possible from the very beginning.

First, most of us members are naturally seeking to be overly fair, overly nice, overly whatever.  This wonderful trait - under normal circumstances - can hobble us and our parenting in the years to come if we have to deal with an uncooperative or obstructive ex.  Our sense of fairness or niceness can even turn out to be self-sabotaging.

Second, courts are generally slow to change court orders and even then can make the bare minimum of changes - I call it baby step changes - so if they get it wrong it can take many months, a year or even more to get the court to adjust the order.  For that reason, if your lawyer says, especially about the initial temporary order, let it go, we'll fix it later, be forewarned that it is generally difficult and expensive to get significant changes later on.  There's a saying repeated here now and then... . Temporary orders often morph unchanged into permanent orders, courts are reluctant to change what seems to work even it it's not really working.

Third, our ex likely won't be very cooperative with sharing his or her parenting time, while we can when it is appropriate.  I recall my Custody Evaluation report stated that Ms FD can't share 'her' child but Mr FD can.  (The quotes were used by the CE.)

So don't feel guilty or let yourself be guilted by ex for asking the court to assign you as much custodial responsibility or parenting time as possible.  Odds are, the court will not grant you nearly enough and of course even if it did then you could always share some of your time if and when appropriate.

[MarkMo]

Well with the RO, my attorney said to go there on the court date and see what she does. If she decides to drop it then great. (She will not do that because of the lie for which she got it in the first place). If she does not drop it then ask the counselor if she will consider signing a different order,( I don't remember the name of it but its where we do not contact each other unless it has to do with the kids). If she doesn't want to do either one of those, then ask the judge to reschedule because I will need time to retain an attorney. It is very sad that it has come to this especially after 5 years of marriage, not hatred other than a lie she told, and us starting to do better.

As far as custody goes, well I am just hoping that he does not grant her more custody than she deserves. Right now, her and her bf live about an hour away, without traffic, so I don't think she will be getting any nights during the week. I assume that the courts will give her at least every other weekend which isn't horrible, but I still don't like it.

Financially, she wants to get off scott free. She wants me to continue paying for her car, her car insurance, her half of the cell phone, whatever else and she just thinks she should have to pay for part of daycare. Yes, she is the one who left us out of the blue.

I know that she is entitled to half of everything and I understand that homes get cleaned out but would a judge not bat an eye if the woman who left took everything or many things from her children's home? I mean I understand that I would be forced to replace it because that is between me and her but that is money that isn't being spent taking care of the children. I don't know, maybe I just have too rational of a view of things.

[livednlearned]

I know that she is entitled to half of everything and I understand that homes get cleaned out but would a judge not bat an eye if the woman who left took everything or many things from her children's home? I mean I understand that I would be forced to replace it because that is between me and her but that is money that isn't being spent taking care of the children. I don't know, maybe I just have too rational of a view of things.

Many people here settle and don't go to trial. I have seen my judge for a total of 10 minutes in 3 years, and I've spent close to $50K on my case. Most of your financial stuff will get worked out in a settlement, is my guess.

And no, even if she left, even if she removed every movable object in your home, the courts are not likely to punish her. Not one bit.

[MarkMo]

Well I am assuming that we will eventually settle. We will have to because I have nowhere near 50k to spend on an attorney and neither does she. Its just disturbing that a court finds no problem with people with these disorders. I know what to do at this point other than to try.

[ForeverDad]

Beware of just any settlement.  Most High Conflict People can't be reasonable or negotiate fairly in a divorce.  For them, it's not give-and-take, it's all take and no give.  So beware a settlement on the ex's terms.  However, generally you can get some concessions just before a big hearing or trial.  It may not be great, but at least the outcome won't be so one-sided.

Our general peer support guidance is to get the best initial temp order you can if you have children, then spend as little as possible during the months spent checking off all the things to do on the court's list of events, keep the case moving in court as fast as possible, never let it fall off the docket, avoid delays if you can and then ex may be willing to settle just before a big hearing or just before the trial.

[MarkMo]

Thank you for the advice and you are right. She has already threatened me with an amicable divorce, through a mediator, that was all on her terms. Basically, she gets the custody that she wants and doesn't pay a dime but half of day care. I recognized that and appeased her at the time but have since retained an attorney and filed for divorce this morning.

The custody is my main concern considering she is 24 living with a 49 yr old man and neither one of them see a problem with the situation that they have caused. He is an enabler and I am sure has a hand in pushing her in certain directions. Either way, my children are the least of their concern except for when they want them. I think that that situation will be detrimental to their mental health and that is the one thing that I don't want.

I will stay on top of everything and do what I can do move everything along. I have a feeling that we may get hung up on custody. I may agree to every other weekend but only if we agree that neither one can introduce our children to the people we are dating for at least 6 months. I have to try.

[livednlearned]

Other advice you often see here is to ask for full custody -- you may not get it, but there are many reasons why you might.

A lot of people told me that I would never get sole legal custody, but I refused to settle. That was over 2.5 years ago. My ex became even more severely disordered in the past few years, and s - l - o - w - l - y I have built a case to get sole legal custody (He handed over primary physical custody without batting an eye).

So if you can't get sole custody, maybe you get primary physical custody. Maybe you get sole legal custody, but she gets EOW. Make sure you understand the approach your L is offering, and what it means in the long term. High conflict divorces don't go away like normal divorces, so get the best arrangement possible, and know that you need a long-term strategy, not just a short-term one.

[MarkMo]

Thats actually a very good idea. She has already kind of agreed to primary residential custody. Thats actually what she had offered. Her treatment of me and the kids has gone down hill since then. I really don't think she gets that what she does actually has an impact on people. You can't do one thing and then the exact opposite and have it not affect anyone. I hate to say this about my wife, but she has sociopathic tendencies for sure.

My kids came back from a fun weekend and now they want to live with mommy even though she was texting her bf all vacation long, she had become the fun parent. This is just such a long road. I have been documenting everything and I will start making my case for sole custody. New jersey I hear is very lenient on people. I still here they tend to lean toward the mothers side no matter the circumstance.

[papawapa]

When I filed for emergency custody I put it right in the affidavit that I believe she has BPD. I also asked for a drug/alcohol assessment and a psychological evaluation. I have to foot the bill for it all and we both have to go through the same hoops. We had our first court appearance almost a month ago and so far she has not complied with anything. I was granted temporary full physical and legal custody. I have completed my alcohol/drug assessment and have my appointment set for the psych eval. She will start out with supervised visitation, but my children's therapists have say as to when it can happen based on when they feel the kids are ready. I have been taking the kids to therapy for over a year, their mother has not been involved at all so I have the therapists in my corner. My hope is that their mother can get her self together and get some help, at this point I seriously doubt it will happen.

[ForeverDad]

Hope for the best, plan for the worst, then accept reality.

[MarkMo]

Isn't that the truth. I never thought it could get this bad but here I am waiting to go into court for my RO hearing. After she did this, I learned fast to expect the worst. I still have hope but I know those days are very far off if they ever happen.

[ForeverDad]

Beware of the seeming niceness of the DA, ADA or judge willing to offer a "plea deal".  If you were a criminal, a plea deal would be great since you're guilty anyway and would be getting reduced consequences.  Since you're not a criminal, a plea deal can make you look like one since plea deals typically involve an Admission of some level of Guilt.  A plea deal can't be appealed either since it's an agreement.

The risks of plea deals or any admission of guilt where there is none are discussed thoroughly by Bill Eddy and Randi Kreger in their inexpensive handbook, a must have and available at their websites and elsewhere:

Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder

[MarkMo]

Well she used to plea deal to try to get custody of the kids. She was prepared to tell the court that I was a danger to her and the kids. She blurted out that my 7 yr old was scared of me but thankfully the judge blew it off. This disorder is mind blowing. I didn't think people could be this evil. Is being a sociopath part of BPD or just part of Antisocial? Thank goodness that after today this should be up to the attorneys until she flips even further out.

[motherof1yearold]

Beware of just any settlement.  Most High Conflict People can't be reasonable or negotiate fairly in a divorce.  For them, it's not give-and-take, it's all take and no give.  So beware a settlement on the ex's terms.  However, generally you can get some concessions just before a big hearing or trial.  It may not be great, but at least the outcome won't be so one-sided.

Our general peer support guidance is to get the best initial temp order you can if you have children, then spend as little as possible during the months spent checking off all the things to do on the court's list of events, keep the case moving in court as fast as possible, never let it fall off the docket, avoid delays if you can and then ex may be willing to settle just before a big hearing or just before the trial.

For people with BPD (or NPD , aspd) It isn't about the child, it isn't about right or wrong, it's about WINNING at all costs.

[MarkMo]

I just wish this wasn't the way it had to be. I really don't want to have to defend myself by attacking her in open court. I love her and I really don't want to hurt her but she isn't leaving me much choice if she decides to go this abuse route.

[ForeverDad]

I just wish this wasn't the way it had to be. I really don't want to have to defend myself by attacking her in open court. I love her and I really don't want to hurt her but she isn't leaving me much choice if she decides to go this abuse route.

Sadly, you have to do what you have to do.  Anything less and you'd be sabotaging yourself and your parenting.

Can you separate your 'love' from 'enabling'?  You can still love her in a principled way and yet protect yourself.  I'm thinking of a phrase that I don't hear very often these days, Tough Love.  Stand firm for what is right and good.  If it come to a choice between her or parenting your child, choose your child.  Why?  She's an adult and consequently your child's needs come first.  If she responds positively, good.  If not, well, she's an adult and it's her choice to live her life the way she wants, however you don't have to follow her down that dark path nor open the gate and walk with her down that path toward self-harm.

[MarkMo]

Well that is the choice I am making. While I do love her, I have to do what I need to do for myself and my children. Right now it is about my children. She is making the choice that she does not want to see our children unless it is with her new bf and she wants them to stay multiply overnights and make our kids see her in her new relationship even though they know how much I love her. It is too much for young children to have to deal with considering her neglectful nature where she could be spending all of her time all over her bf and not paying any attention to the kids. I have offered certain things but she has refused.

She chose to go this route in order to defend her lies to her bf. Now, I am here defending myself against her and she hasn't liked the outcome so far. I will and have to stand my ground no matter what I feel about her.

[Kayci]

_{"Financially, she wants to get off scott free. She wants me to continue paying for her car, her car insurance, her half of the cell phone, whatever else and she just thinks she should have to pay for part of daycare. Yes, she is the one who left us out of the blue."}

I don't know where you are MarkMo, but in Calif if she is living with her bf, you do NOT pay her any spousal support. That includes making her payments for her. You might have to pay child support to her for whatever time the courts order the kids to be in her care, but you will not pay her spousal support. Period.