How do I get her disorder out in court?

[livednlearned]

_{"Financially, she wants to get off scott free. She wants me to continue paying for her car, her car insurance, her half of the cell phone, whatever else and she just thinks she should have to pay for part of daycare. Yes, she is the one who left us out of the blue."}

I don't know where you are MarkMo, but in Calif if she is living with her bf, you do NOT pay her any spousal support. That includes making her payments for her. You might have to pay child support to her for whatever time the courts order the kids to be in her care, but you will not pay her spousal support. Period.

Similar to where I live. If I start cohabitating with someone, or got married, no more alimony/spousal support. It's standard.

[ForeverDad]

In my settlement which included short term alimony, I specifically allowed alimony in spite of a remarriage since I felt it better for her to marry if she was going to live with someone.  Besides, it was just a few years and I didn't want to encourage games of hide and seek.  As it turned out, she's had at least two BFs and suspicions of up to four but to my knowledge she's never remarried.

[MarkMo]

Well here is my problem now. Her new bf started to ask questions and she started to realize that she is going to have to pay child support. Instead of what she wanted before which was every other weekend, now she wants the kids M-F and the kids go to school near her obviously. She told me that she will get a weekend job so she can pay her bf rent and such and that I can have the kids weekends.

So, she has gone from paying child support to round about making it look great and having me pay child support. I recently started writing things down for my own mental health and WOW, once you start writing things down you see all the bad. However, I also started seeing a pattern and I know she has already started down that road again.

Of course, I am going to fight her on custody but my attorney is saying that all the courts care about in NJ is the welfare of the child. That is totally understandable but what can I do? She will be able to fake out any court appointed social worker just as she can drink one of her glasses of wine. If I don't establish a pattern of behavior and neglect then what can I do? My wife is very very good and unless and specialist interviews her with a backround in hand, she will be able to get by.

She is already bringing texts and things to court to show that I "harassed' her by texting and that I spoke to other woman which is bologna. But, what can I do? Please help

[livednlearned]

Of course, I am going to fight her on custody but my attorney is saying that all the courts care about in NJ is the welfare of the child. That is totally understandable but what can I do? She will be able to fake out any court appointed social worker just as she can drink one of her glasses of wine. If I don't establish a pattern of behavior and neglect then what can I do? My wife is very very good and unless and specialist interviews her with a background in hand, she will be able to get by.

Welfare of the child applies to more than neglect. It also means, what is the least amount of change to your kids. So if your kids are with you most of the time, and you are living in the marital home, your kids stay in the same school if living with you, etc., then it's in the best interests of the kids to keep as consistent a schedule and routine as possible.

If you take your kids to the doctor, to school events, after school activities, dentist, etc., then that all counts. Establish a good case for being the primary physical custodial parent by documenting everything you've done. And when/if you go to court, make everything about your kids. It's a good idea to see a therapist so you can process the feelings of hurt and betrayal -- that will make it easier to get very clear in court about what impacts the kids and what impacts you.

[MarkMo]

livenlearned,

    What if I cannot afford to stay where I am because of hours at work and child care? Can she then use it against me saying that their live will change anyway if I move?

[livednlearned]

She is already bringing texts and things to court to show that I "harassed' her by texting and that I spoke to other woman which is bologna. But, what can I do? Please help

Courts hear mudslinging between warring spouses all day long, day after day after day. Your ex has to show that the harassment reaches a level of criteria to get an RO. If she can't do that, those texts mean next to nothing. And unless you live in a state with alienation of affection laws (I don't think NJ is one of them), then it doesn't matter that there's another woman. Pretend that there's a windshield in front of you, and this mud is hitting the windshield. Then just wipe it away.

Lying seems to go with the territory and it doesn't seem to matter if you have documentation, including documents that your ex consented to and signed -- that's how it is in my case. If she cannot produce evidence, then you tell the court, "Stbexw is making false allegations that are simply not true, and there is no evidence to support these allegations."

[livednlearned]

livenlearned,

    What if I cannot afford to stay where I am because of hours at work and child care? Can she then use it against me saying that their live will change anyway if I move?

Well, she's going to use anything she can against you. If you breathe air, she will say that you take too much for yourself and not enough for the child. 

So, yes, if you move, then she'll undermine that argument.

How old is your child? Who picks her up? What documentation do you already have? What do you need to do next?

[MarkMo]

We have 3 children... . 7, 4, and 11 months. She up and left and has had very little contact with the kids since. No calls at all and 4-5 visits in the first 7 weeks.

She already got the RO but that was dismissed by the judge. She just started partial custody yesterday and she left on Memorial Day. She went from wanting every other weekend to now wanting the kids M-F. She now lives an hour away.

The lying is just establishing a pattern of behavior that the kids would be exposed to if they were to live with her and her bf that is twice her age. My attorney said the same thing that it doesn't matter. Im just guessing it all works out. I really don't care about the money, I just don't want my kids to be exposed to everything that the courts might not even care about, ie mental health.

[ForeverDad]

Welfare of the child applies to more than neglect. It also means, what is the least amount of change to your kids. So if your kids are with you most of the time, and you are living in the marital home, your kids stay in the same school if living with you, etc., then it's in the best interests of the kids to keep as consistent a schedule and routine as possible.

If you take your kids to the doctor, to school events, after school activities, dentist, etc., then that all counts. Establish a good case for being the primary physical custodial parent by documenting everything you've done. And when/if you go to court, make everything about your kids. It's a good idea to see a therapist so you can process the feelings of hurt and betrayal -- that will make it easier to get very clear in court about what impacts the kids and what impacts you.

livenlearned,

    What if I cannot afford to stay where I am because of hours at work and child care? Can she then use it against me saying that their live will change anyway if I move?

Well, she's going to use anything she can against you. If you breathe air, she will say that you take too much for yourself and not enough for the child. 

How dare you presume to breathe air!   Sigh, it would be funny if it weren't true.

Don't put too much concern into your likely move.  Why?  First, families move all the time, a move is a minimal issue.  Besides, she has already moved out, leaving you in de facto possession.  So if she wants the children, then they'd have to move to live with her, right?  So you see that either way the children would have to move.  Second, your 'home' is where you live.

If you are their more involved parent then they ought to stay with you.  However, despite us living in jurisdictions that profess to be gender neutral, mothers often get an unwritten default preference.  So it might be an uphill struggle for you, but on your side you have two powerful points (1) parenting history and (2) her recent move-out away from the children, with one of them a baby.

I wouldn't be surprised if at some point she will file to move back into the house and you out and seeking you to pay for her to live there.  If you let her back in it would be hard (lost time and money) to get her and any BFs out.

I just don't want my kids to be exposed to everything that the courts might not even care about, ie mental health.

Unless she is seen as substantively abusive, neglectful or a danger of some sort to the children, she will get to see the children and they will be exposed to her lifestyle to some extent.  Accept that reality.  Your goal is to have and keep as much wholesome parenting as possible.  You currently have majority time parenting, though minimally documented by officialdom.  (You do have doctor, school and other history, so you have at least some documentation.)

At some point the court will have to order temporary custody and a parenting schedule.  Often the first parenting order is the hardest to undo, so do your best to get it right from the start.  The judge will be inclined to set a typical order where mother gets control and time, father gets to visit and pay.  You have to make sure the judge know that is NOT the history, both long term and recent.

My lawyer said judges are "reluctant to upset the children".  You have to show that the past and current patterns familiar to the children is with you taking the lead and being the most involved.  You need to convince the judge not to change what works.

[MarkMo]

I don't think she will want to move back in unless her bf kicks her out. This could happen if he every finds out the truth about her insane lies.

Her claim is that I pushed her out of the house so its my fault she left. I do have proof of the many men that she was talking to while I was asleep next to her.

Most people assume the kids are with her, the mother, so it is funny to see their reactions when they realize that she left and I have the kids. I'm just worried because she while her behavior is unstable, it isn't noticeable at first glance or unless you know of it already.

I have been writing down my own stuff just in case anyone needs it any point. Helps me realize all the things that have happened too.

[Matt]

I have one other question. If I am away from the house and she knows that, can she just come to the house and take things? She has completely left but she mentioned the other week when she was on a tirade and wanted a divorce, that she wanted to come in and go through things to take "her half".

Where I live, if one party (you) are living there, and the other party isn't, then you are the sole resident, and only you have the right to be there;  she can't come in without your permission.  So changing the locks is a good idea, and you might also inform her (through your lawyers) that she is not to come on the property without your permission.

If she wants some of her personal stuff, like clothes, you can arrange that, but make sure to have a non-family adult third party present.  Where I live, the police offer "keep the peace" service, meaning she would meet an officer nearby, and come to the home together, and the officer would supervise while she gets her personal stuff, but not something big like furniture.  You can suggest this, and then cooperate with the officer so it goes smoothly.  (There's no cost;  they do it because they would rather keep the peace than deal with a blow-up.)

[Matt]

We have 3 children... . 7, 4, and 11 months. She up and left and has had very little contact with the kids since. No calls at all and 4-5 visits in the first 7 weeks.

One strategy to consider is to slow the divorce/custody process down as much as possible, so when decisions are made, the kids will have been with you a long time.  If they are doing well, the court will be reluctant to change custody, and you're likely to end up with primary custody.

Are they doing well... . ?

[Matt]

She just started partial custody yesterday and she left on Memorial Day. She went from wanting every other weekend to now wanting the kids M-F. She now lives an hour away.

Don't agree to anything that reduces the amount of time you have with the kids.  The longer they are with you, and they better they are doing, the stronger your case for custody will be.  And from what you've said about your wife's behavior, it's probably best for the kids to spend as little time with her as possible.

[MarkMo]

They are doing great but they miss their mom. They say they want to live with her now. She is always the fun parent... . sorta, and I have been stuck being the real parent. The more she sees them though, the more her personality will come out possibly to the point where her bf sees it.

They are doing very well though and we have fun. I just hate having to go through all this.

[Matt]

Would it be possible to find a counselor for them?  I found one for my kids - 8 and 10 when we separated - and it helped them a lot.

First I went to the school counselor, who recommended someone - actually it was the woman who had her job before her.  The counselor was able to help my kids cope with the stress of the separation, and she subtly guided the kids toward good ways of dealing with their BPD mom, without ever "taking sides".

[MarkMo]

Its possible and I do plan on it. I just have to get my wife's permission first.

Also she is undiagnosed BPD but there is way more than enough to say she has it. I actually thought it was antisocial for awhile because she met all the criteria except for robbing banks.

[Matt]

Its possible and I do plan on it. I just have to get my wife's permission first.

Are you sure you need her permission?

"It's easier to get forgiveness than permission."

I just did it - no discussion with my then-wife.  Later her lawyer tried to make an issue of it, but I explained that I thought it would be best for the kids and I didn't want to argue about it, I just wanted to do what was best for them.  The court sided with me, and even ordered my wife to pay part of the counselor's fees, which I had paid up til then.

If you are doing what you believe is right - and if it is reasonable - and if you don't try to get the counselor "on your side" - I think there is little risk.

One more comment on this subject:  Be careful to avoid saying that you are getting them a counselor because you believe the kids have a "problem".  You are getting them a counselor because you think it would be helpful to them.  If you suggest there is a "problem", then you will be challenged to provide proof, like a diagnosis.

If you just say, "This is a stressful time and I thought it would be good for the kids to have someone to talk to, who could help them build their coping skills" etc. then it's pretty hard to make that look like a bad thing.

[MarkMo]

Right, that would be why I would be taking them to a counselor anyway. I just want to help them cope with everything. I do not think that they have a problem.

[livednlearned]

I agree with Matt -- in general, it's a hiccup when you take your kids to a counselor without getting your spouse's permission. Yes, you're supposed to, and your ex could throw a fit, but for the most part, court seems to look the other way when a parent gets counseling for their kids -- especially during or after the divorce. Better to do what you think is right and explain it later, than to deny your kids something that could really help them.

My son has been seeing a counselor for the past three years and I think it's been entirely positive for him. Our counselor insisted on signing a waiver so she would not be called into court. It was the wisest thing that she did because she is protecting S12's confidentiality. She is S12's therapist, and doesn't divulge particulars about what he talks about.

Along these lines, I highly recommend Don't Alienate the Kids by Bill Eddy. That book made me realize that I had to learn how to model better conflict-management strategies. Your kids are learning from you and your stbx, so how you cope and deal with this conflict is what they learn. I found myself getting incredibly tense and anxious, and fearful. Then I realized how much S12 was learning from me. A lot of the stuff I took him to see the T for was actually stuff I needed help with too. It starts with you -- you're the only stable parent, so it's all on you. Also, read what you can about validation. I really wish I learned about validating my son earlier. Power of Validation is an excellent book, and it works. Your kids probably aren't being validated by your stbx, and the way to thwart her attempts to alienate while also helping your kids, is to validate how they feel. There's more to it than just agreeing with them, so read about it. It kinda changed my life, and definitely changed how my son copies with feelings. He had nervous tics and chronic stomachaches, and was labeled "at-risk" by a psychologist after S12 had an outburst in 4th grade (he stabbed a kid with a pencil). Now his tics have gone away, he is much more socially confident, and he doesn't get flooded with feelings.

The good news is that one stable parent goes a long, long way.

[Matt]

Along these lines, I highly recommend Don't Alienate the Kids by Bill Eddy.

Eddy's web site, www.HighConflictInstitute.com, has some good stuff too.

[MarkMo]

Well I just wrote this long reply but it got deleted . Thank you for your replies.

I am definitely the stable parent. I know how she works and that her situation is such where it will crash one day. She can't keep up the lies with me because she has already lied so much to him. While she seems to be the more stable parent with a new man and a new home, she has nothing in her life, no money, no job. She wants me to fund the kids at her house. Not going to happen.

Unfortunately, when I do win. Reality is going to set in and she may want to crawl back... . if he finds out and kicks her out... .

Again, unfortunately my children are not going through this again, so unless she wants to go get help... . it will never happen.

I will definitely look those things up because I want to be the best Dad I can be.

[ForeverDad]

She just started partial custody yesterday and she left on Memorial Day. She went from wanting every other weekend to now wanting the kids M-F. She now lives an hour away.

Don't agree to anything that reduces the amount of time you have with the kids.  The longer they are with you, and they better they are doing, the stronger your case for custody will be.

What I write to some extent depends on whether you've already filed, but not by much.  The principle is still there.  You've been majority time parent and caregiver both before and after separation.  It is only right to continue that unless family court changes it.  However, if a court hasn't stepped in yet, try to see how long you can keep the same.

You mentioned she now lives an hour away.  If court hasn't been involved yet, be aware that you may end up with the school age kids registered in two schools, yours and one in her new residence.   That's right, she probably won't care about following the rules.  Besides, without court orders there are no specified rules on parental rights... . both parents have equal but unspecified rights to the children.  (Groan! :'( )

So keep your eyes open.  If you haven't filed yet, get the paperwork ready at least.  That way if you want to keep things calm for a while longer, (1) you will be in charge of parenting for even longer post-separation and (2) she may not get triggered and overreact.  However, she's already wanting more time (posturing as a Good Mother) even though you know it probably wouldn't last.  So there may not be much downside to going ahead and filing sooner than later seeking what you see as the best for the children.

What will you do if she decides to "crawl back"?  You know the core issues won't have been fixed, this surely would just happen again - and next time she may be better prepared to appear the more involved parent!  Besides, she's already sought a restraining order once, she can do it again.

[MarkMo]

I have already filed for divorce but the courts have been involved. She filed for an emerging custody hearing. She sees the kids 3-4 days a week alternating till the end of the summer. That is all the agreement is for. She saw the kids totally 10 hours in the 7 weeks prior. Before that, she was off doing her own thing, "working" for over 4 months while I was home with a bad back.

Maybe, just maybe she couldn't have picked a worse time to do this because I have been the primary care taker since February 6th.

Well the kids are registered for school here. I will actually go down tomorrow and check on that.

The issue still is moving. If I can't afford to live up here any longer because of all of the expenses, what do I do?

[Matt]

Keep a log of who has the kids when:

Thursday 7/25/13  Kids with me from 00:00 to 17:00 with Mom from 17:00 to 24:00

If you do it in a spreadsheet it will be easy to add up all the hours.

My wife claimed to be majority parent, til I showed the spreadsheet:  I had them about 55% of the nights and 75% of the "non-school waking hours".

Fill in the old information the best you can, since she had them less then.

[MarkMo]

Even when she came to see the kids, she wanted me to go with her so she has never seen the kids alone before now, but I will do that for sure to cover myself. Thank you

[Matt]

Go back as far as you can go accurately.

Usually (where I live) courts focus mostly on how many nights in each place.

In my case that didn't tell the whole story, so my lawyer said, "Add up the non-school waking hours" which told the story better.  We put both numbers into our stuff, and backed them up with the logs.  It worked.