Am I judgemental? Am I powerless?

[vivekananda]

Ok, I would like your feedback please. I have been having a hard time recently. In a nutshell, I think my issues are related to accepting the situation I find myself in with my loved ones without being judgemental. It is easy to do the things I need to if I only consider myself, but apart from anything else, I have a dd32 with BPD.

So, I learnt here that if I want to change my behaviour, I have to change my thinking. I know I can be  judgemental – and who amongst us hasn’t been? But I want to change my thinking and subsequently my behaviour.

I have seen dd twice this year and one of those occasions was a disaster. I hope to be able to see her again soon. It is hard to work on our relationship when so little time is spent together, so every little thing I say (or don’t say) is really important. I know she wants to have a relationship with us, but because of her BPD she struggles with even responding to a text message asking to catch up. Yesterday I was lucky enough to speak with her for 24 minutes.

I found out she was cut off from her govt benefits for a month and had no money, but she only got to the office this Monday to see what had happened and get reinstated. She has had difficulty getting to Drs appointments, she told me. All this is I believe because it is too stressful for her to try to get motivated and organised. I believe her house has become a great hoarders mess. I asked her if we could help and she said yes but she didn’t know how and would think about it. I asked about her T and she said she was very happy with him, but she isn’t seeing him regularly and she hasn’t got another appointment to see him. While in some ways she is better than she was a year ago, in objective terms re her living conditions, she is not.

I want to say, are you happy with your life at the moment? She obviously is not. And to ask that question she would correctly see an implicit judgement that her life is a mess. A judgemental comment is not helpful, it implies criticism and she would become defensive. This gets us nowhere.

I want to say, have you heard of neurofeedback? I don’t think she has. And to ask that question she would see as a criticism of her knowledge/intelligence. If I explained anything, she would see it as a criticism of her T and her own judgement in sticking with him, which it is…. Again this gets us nowhere.

I want to say that to have a relationship with someone you need to have regular contact with them, that if our relationship is to improve, we need more contact. And to do that would imply that she hasn’t done the right thing by ignoring my requests to meet. This is implicit judgement… it gets us nowhere.

There is no point is asking her about getting a job, how she is managing without money or anything like that. I have learnt to accept that. But at 32 she is not getting better.

What a dilemma. It seems to me I can say nothing. Since she was 18 I have been unable to say anything that she didn’t see as agreeable, I have been unable to initiate topics of conversation without them seeming to be judgemental in her eyes… and they probably were… She wants us to have a relationship, she wants to get better but I feel powerless in helping her. Do I have to be powerless? And how do I say things without them being seen as judgemental?

Vivek    

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[swampped]

Dear Vivek :  YOu have helped so many of us here with your wisdom and insight into BPD---I feel totally unqualified to answer your question.  But I would say that the powerless part of the equation reminds me of our AlAnon twelve steps.  Substitute BPD for alcohol in there and you come up with:  We admitted we were powerless over BPD and our lives  have become unmanageable.  Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.  Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to that Power... . etc, etc, etc.  I know from the serenity prayer that you quote so often that you are aware of all of this---maybe looking over some of that literature would help you sort things out right now.  It is so clear that you love your dd, and that she needs you, but it would seem to me that she needs you on her terms.  And that is okay.  Our mothers' hearts ache when our children are hurting, or hungry, or alone, or doing without.  But some things we cannot fix.  I struggle with this daily with my ds33, whose uBPD ex wife takes every nickel he gives her, and leaves him with little or nothing to live on---and holds the visits with gd4 over his head as ransom.  But I cannot change him---or her---and that is the way it is. 

I hope you can find some peace in all of this.  Thank you so much for all the ways in which you have helped me.  We are all in this together, though none of us is happy to be here!   Blessings.   Swampped

[mggt]

Dear Vivek , I too wonder what to do how powerless we feel when our own isntincts kick in to save protect give advice.  That is why I feel moms were born to protect our little ones no matter how old they are no matter where they go and what they do .  I think you have alot of skills , you are so smart and desive when you give advice to all of us .  So I would say follow your heart and head and may god be with you.  Wishing you much luck and prayers mggt  

[vivekananda]

thank you sweet mggt (prayers are most welcome, so is luck - I could do with some  ). My problem is... . reconciling what is my head and what is my heart... .

have you seen this here about 'wisemind'? TOOLS: DBT for Non Borderlines- Mindfulness

For me, I need to understand better the 'errors' in my thinking. My logic mind says that what I think about dd's situation is the truth. She is unhappy, she isn't coping etc... . but this puts me in a position of being judgemental ... . and that's unhelpful. I am struggling to change this way of thinking, my need to see her change her ways.

See, I was brought up to be 'my brother's keeper', my whole way of being is to help others, so to accept I can't do anything to help so runs against the grain. And underlying it is this moral judgement that I am making that the other person needs my help... .

swamped thank you for reminding me of acceptance. I think that is the key to this. My problem is that dd wants to be better, wants me to help and dh and I so desperately want to help. So, the acceptance is not so much accepting her or her situation... . and it is more than accepting that I am powerless to do anything. It is something about changing my thinking, my personality as a person who likes to tell people what to do   

I want to change because I can see it is not helpful... . there is something I am missing in all this... .

maybe someone has examples of saying something judgemental and then saying it differently... . ?

Cheers,

Vivek      

[mggt]

Dear Vivek , Sometimes there is no error in thinking it is just our own human nature     

[Reality]

Vivek ananda,

Our supplier of knowledge, our giver of help, our ever-present bpdfamily Ambassador... .

I was thinking the other day of how tirelessly you give to everyone here and wondering how you do it.  You are such a strong, thoughtful person.

Be curious.  We, notice the we, we don't understand what our pwBPD are thinking.  They are complex thinkers.  What I learned using the principles of DBT and Mentalization was that I didn't really know my son at all.  I was so busy 'parenting' that I forgot to ask my son questions and I forgot that he was a real person, not a mental health concept. 

How are things going?  Hmmmmm... . hmmmmm... . (Silence).  Oh, do you mean or am I way off base?  Oh, I see.  I was totally on the wrong track.  And I didn't even know it. (laugh at yourself). So what would make sense here?  Hmmmmm... . Hmmmmm... . oh, that would be so nice, but I think I would end up saying the wrong thing and upset you.  Weird, how I love you so much, but I make assumptions that are way off.  I need to ask a lot more questions to keep me on track.  Do you think that might be true?  It is hard to tell what other people are thinking and feeling?  Oh, you think I sound weird.  Well, I probably do, because I don't have much practice at listening carefully.  I was always too busy and ... . you know, I love talking to you... . even when I don't know what to say... .

Basically mentalizing is asking questions, seeking clarification, seeing if the person would like you to offer some suggestions, is the timing right for that... . showing that you don't know what the other person is thinking or feeling so you need to ask questions and comment... .

You are modeling real empathy, not using technique.  You want to know what makes your lovely daughter tick.  It takes time, patience... .

I am not sure if non-judgmental is the word.  I mean, honestly, we are constantly judging.  That is what we do as humans.  Your ideas are all good ones.  Maybe the timing isn't right because the relationship is fragile.  Or maybe, your dd will surprise you.  She just wants to know that you accept her as she is, mess and all.  That is conveyed through voice tone, and the feel of the conversation, etc.

As Gunderson says, "Just get out of her way".  Let her be who she is.  Let her be who she is and she will blossom slowly over time.  I bet her values are way closer to yours than you can ever imagine.  The disorder masks the personality.

Like all of us, pwBPD want to be loved, just as we are. 

She is fine.  She isn't fine.  That is the dialectical tension.  The parent holds that tension, not the child.  She needs someone outside of herself to contain that tension, so she is not afraid of it.  She needs to hear that someone she knows is fine and also isn't fine, so she understands this is the normal human experience and tension of being alive.  Nothing is just black or just white.  Once that's validated, she is free to move into reality.  She is free to be herself, your beautiful daughter.

Reality

[vivekananda]

ahh Reality, you bring tears to my eyes (you are on target and speak to my heart). You are able to show it in a completely different light. Of course my logical mind is looking for the flaw in thinking while you completely sidestep that way of thinking. Thank you for showing me a different way of thinking. It makes sense and I will go back to Porr and look again at mentalization. And re read again and again what you offer.

I think I do still need to understand what being judgemental means, my 'logic' mind demands understanding and must be fed ... . now!   you know what I mean, it is like an itch that has to be satisfied. See I can say things that I don't think are judgemental, but are ... .

I just asked the dh for an example of me being judgemental ... . of course, he couldn't think of one! What he did say was that it is when we make an assessment of what is right or wrong.

So, that leaves me still turning on the spot... . dd wants to be better, she wants a relationship with me, she wants my help. So the issue is that I want her to change (get better, have a relationship with me, accept my help/support). So, to use my language, I have to let go of ego... .

Now, if making a decision that something/someone is right or wrong is unhelpful because as you say, I/we do that all the time. I am a classic problem solver. I analyse what's going on, identify the issue and find a solution. As an intelligent old woman    I am impatient to get on with things, I need to get moving.

Yes, Reality I need to slow down that urge to solve problems and be curious, remind myself that I don't know, I don't know everything (which reminds of another bete noire: self righteousness). I can be open to the universe.

Thank you, I am now off for another opportunity to meet with dd, she has agreed to catch up for coffee this afternoon. I have a copy of an article on neurofeedback in my bag. If the time is ok, I might give it to her... .

best wishes,

Vivek    

[pessim-optimist]

Dear Vivek ,

I was just thinking - how about being inquisitive about her as a person? Asking her non-threatening questions - letting her share her ideas etc... . And Reality has a very nice reply regarding that.

For me, I need to understand better the 'errors' in my thinking. My logic mind says that what I think about dd's situation is the truth. She is unhappy, she isn't coping etc... . but this puts me in a position of being judgemental ... . and that's unhelpful. I am struggling to change this way of thinking, my need to see her change her ways.

That's the key, two things: YOUR need to see her change and HER need to be happier. Your logic sees it clearly (good objective judgement), however, your dd is not able to get to that place. It is like trying to help someone cross the river when you are looking at them from your river bank. You need to row over to their side to get them back to yours.

Does that make sense? The books tell us not to jump into the whirlpool with a pwBPD - I agree. However, with compassion and understanding, we can SEE their situation from their staNPDoint and see THEIR need through their eyes. We can be ALONGSIDE them and ease them onto their way... . (hopefully)

[Rapt Reader]

Hi, Vivek     I feel like you are torturing yourself with this fear you have of being judgmental; you are a concerned, loving Mom to a daughter that is for some reason resisting every good thing you want to do for her, while watching her self-destruct. That sucks! And I hate it that you are having to go through all of this, when you just want to help. Helpers like you (and all of us!) on this Board get really frustrated when we can't do what we know we can if someone would just let us!  

maybe someone has examples of saying something judgemental and then saying it differently... . ?

I want to say, are you happy with your life at the moment? "How are you feeling about things? How do you feel things are going with you?" (and be really interested and compassionate-looking while asking   )

I want to say, have you heard of neurofeedback? "I've been reading about this therapy called Neurofeedback... . I'm wondering if you know anything about it?" (and be interested and quizzical-looking while asking   )

I want to say that to have a relationship with someone you need to have regular contact with them, that if our relationship is to improve, we need more contact. "I feel like I need to see someone or talk to them regularly in order to feel close to them... . What do think you about that?" (and be earnest and innocent-looking when you say that   )

In doing that exercise, I realize that I rely on my tone of voice and facial expressions a whole lot when communicating with people... . Hmmmmmm. I wonder what that means?  

[vivekananda]

geez what you both say makes so much sense. This is what happened.

After 20 mins of superficial movie and movie stars talk. I asked to raise a topic that might be sensitive. After talking herself through that, she agreed. I said: "it seems to me that in order for a relationship to develop, it needs to have regular contact." No response.

I said "we have only met twice this year and it's already July. This is not helping us develop our relationship."

She said: "that's good that we have met as much as twice. It's better than it was last year. I have to feel that there is no stress when we meet. I need to take care of myself and if it is too much for me, then you just have to understand that... . "

I asked that if I texted her and it was too much for her to respond, could she just reply and say that she's ok?

She said that if she couldn't respond then she wasn't going to respond. Why should she respond?

I said that I worried about her.

She said, in whatever words she used... . too bad. And she needed to go shopping now.

I said ok, can we agree that if we meet and it gets too much for either one of us, then that person would be able to just leave and we could resume later.

She said - more or less - that was a good idea.

Then, silly me, I said I had some information if she wanted to read it. "what's it about?' Neurofeedback, have you heard of it? 'No, what's it about?" It's a treatment that's been successful with PTSD."I don't want that. Don't you know I am not in the active phase of treatment/therapy. blah blah blah etc. I have no idea of what that means and typically she expects me to know stuff about her without telling me anything - this has been a thing from the past also where she thinks she has told all sorts of stuff that she hasn't and I know nothing.

Then I drove her back home. She impatient, superior, self righteous. Me, sad, deeply sad.

Just before all this she talked about her goals. I asked her what was on the top of her list of goals. Going shopping in 10 mins. What about medium term or long term goals? I just told you shopping to cook some meals tonight is on the top of my list... .

So, judgemental or not. It wasn't good. No room for anything but nonsense talk. No room for a relationship it seems.  :'(

Nevertheless, I will continue to work on myself. That's all I can do.

I was just thinking - how about being inquisitive about her as a person? Asking her non-threatening questions - letting her share her ideas etc... . And

seems I can't do that. Past experience tells me that I should already know (by osmosis or something) or she has told me already (or so she believes) or I'm too old to keep up (she talks in riddles and doesn't make sense).

In doing that exercise, I realize that I rely on my tone of voice and facial expressions a whole lot when communicating with people... . Hmmmmmm. I wonder what that means? 

you're right. It's about being authentic, yes? I think that I was but I couldn't be that 'curious' person. I think I was too sad before I got there. I had texted her on 3 occasions previous to the latest contact, over a month earlier a week or two apart and she didn't reply. I have been very worried for her. She is in a new relationship with a guy it seems and that usually spells disaster.

So, relationship with dd or not. I think I still want to understand what being judgemental is about. Pessio you refer to 'good objective judgement' is any judgement good and objective? Is it about 'approval or disapproval' that makes it judgement? How do you take the right or wrong out of an assessment?

thank you,

Vivek     

[qcarolr]

Vivek  -   

Reading this thread - a good one for all of us to ponder. Will be back later to finish reading all the replies. I too am so caught by my intellect. It does get in the way from a heart-connection with everyone in my life. Most esp. DD and gd.

qcr  

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Rapt Reader]

Hi, Vivek    

How do you take the right or wrong out of an assessment? Radical Acceptance? This is the hardest thing; it shows in our eyes and face, the object of our concern will sense it in the inflection of our voice... . No matter what we say   

Being non-judgmental with my dBPDs36 has been hard for me, too. What I've been trying to do is just use the Radical Acceptance techniques, and then to remove myself from the situation if I can so I don't give off judgmental vibes. In your case, that would be hard to do since this is happening when you are on the phone or in her presence, and since you don't talk to or see her often, you can't do that... . I'm so sad for you; having a grown child who doesn't think they need to change or get help is rotten (up till this April, that was my own son). It's something that happens in their own heads; we can't force them to see the light. As bright a light as it is!

I pray that you can stop torturing yourself over this   You don't sound any more judgmental than anyone else who is human and in your situation. And you are trying~~You are a loving mother doing her best for her daughter, with a daughter who doesn't want the help, or who misunderstands that help; it's not you. Really. Radical Acceptance. Letting go. Loving and taking care of yourself. Being there for her, but not losing yourself in her problems. I do get it; when my son was using drugs (and hard drugs, at that!) I was tortured over it, wanting him to stop and knowing he had to stop or end up dead. And it wasn't me who got him to stop~~It was God who orchestrated the comedy of tragic errors that led him to contemplate suicide the last week of February that landed him in the Psych Ward of our local hospital, which led him to the Dual Diagnosis Program that helped him see the light with his new BPD diagnosis, and then led me here and to the knowledge of NFT that is now facilitating his recovery.

I wish I could say that I was the one who turned him around; he turned himself around, and I was just there to point him in the right direction afterwards. I predict that something out of your control will help your daughter to see the light, and then you will be there, armed with your toolbox of BPD techniques to guide her in the right direction, since at that time she will be willing to let you. Until she's willing, she will go in her own direction regardless of its appropriateness. It sucks, but this is what I've learned over the last 31 years of my son's torturous life of ADD, Depression, Anxiety & uBPD. It really sucks, doesn't it? Looking back, given the hand I was dealt with his troubles and the lack of help by the Psychological and Medical community at that time (until now), there was nothing I could've done differently. And here we are... .

[Vivgood]

"judgement" has become such a dirty word in some circles! Judgement isn't bad in itself, and that fact that you judge a particular situation is not bad. We have to be able to make judgments because that's how we make choices. Don't worry about knowing that your DD has a fairly craptastic life at this point. Based on objective criteria, she DOES, and based on HER subjective experience... . she has made a similar judgment. None of this is bad.

I think the issue is less that you have judged her current lifestyle negatively, than that you are indicating to her that you believe YOU can change that (if she'd just listen to your perfectly reasonable advice !), or that SHE can change that as easily as you would be able to in her position. Neither of these things is true, and in implying them (or expressing them outright) is deeply invalidating (and ineffective).  You mention the "brother's keeper" dilemma. I get that. Its pretty deeply ingrained in those of us who had a conventional western upbringing (like "turn the other cheek", blah)  . But in the context of current life, its self-defeating. Its the opposite of helpful. And its hard to internalize the concept of acceptance/disengagement/letting go of others' outcome because it feels like you're being bad ("bad mom!". What would help you accomplish that? reading books like "I don't have to make ... . better"? guided imagery? role play?

You are rebuilding a damaged relationship with a very fragile person. If what makes your incremental interactions with her positive is limiting it to 20min movie talk... . is that bad? Do you think that ISN'T helpful? I think it is. It puts a nice sturdy little brick into something you are trying to build. It creates, over repetition, a place that can feel safe for her to talk about things more openly.

I said "we have only met twice this year and it's already July. This is not helping us develop our relationship."

"We've met twice this year and its only July. I'eve really enjoyed having these interactions; it feels like we are creating some good feelings. If there's any other way we can interact, like a text or call, that would work for you, let me know." Viv, you actually good some great stuff from her on this topic. She made some insightful, thoughtful remarks. Thats a win.

T

hen, silly me, I said I had some information if she wanted to read it. "what's it about?' Neurofeedback, have you heard of it? 'No, what's it about?" It's a treatment that's been successful with PTSD."I don't want that. Don't you know I am not in the active phase of treatment/therapy. blah blah blah etc. I have no idea of what that means and typically she expects me to know stuff about her without telling me anything - this has been a thing from the past also where she thinks she has told all sorts of stuff that she hasn't and I know nothing.

Yeah I limit myself to one tricky subject per convo! But: " I've been reading about some interesting science on brain function. This book I got, blahblah, on NF talks about blahblahblah. I'll send it to you when I'm done if you like." would work better. Its about you and your nerd-ish inclinations, not her and how you think she needs to change.

want to say, are you happy with your life at the moment? "How are you feeling about things? How do you feel things are going with you?"

Too open-ended and to blatantly about "her feelings". Make it more specific in topic and less instigating: "Sounds like you like your therapist, thats so important to get a good fit, I know I always prefer a counselor who acts like s/he actually cares about me. Does yours seem that way to you?"

It wasn't good. No room for anything but nonsense talk. No room for a relationship it seems.

Broaden your definition of relationship! nonsense=positive! It really is, it lightens their burden a little bit to just yak about trivia, feel somewhat normal for 20 min, feel like mom is just enjoying their company rather than trying to fix her AGAIN! (thats what my DD said to me a while back, while she was expounding on Korean pop bands and I said something all psychological and anythang. mom are you trying to fix me again? )

In doing that exercise, I realize that I rely on my tone of voice and facial expressions a whole lot when communicating with people... . Hmmmmmm.

This is so important I feel like it should be tattooed on my forehead . The vast majority of human communication is unspoken (I know you know this... . ). For me, as an Aspy who struggles daily with it, I can see that my DD responds better to everything when I make a point of having a warm and open facial expression, open body stance, and softer voice. None of which comes naturally to me! She will tell me "mom! less harsh!"

I don't think your interaction with her was bad. I would count it as a "mild win".

vivgood

[heronbird]

Hi Viv,

Valerie Porr told me that she thinks I am judgementa towards dd. I thought what a funny thing to say, course I am, why would I not be.

Would a mum judge a dd for smoking at age14? would a mum/parent judge dd for drugs, alcohol, tattoos, etc.

Well, I try so hard not to be.

You are not powerless, I guess we all have to just sit back and do nothing. I am now in that position, dd is 19, just been released from hospital I know its too soon and I worry she will go down hill again soon. Each time I worry what will happen, Im not powerless but I do have to sit tight.

[Reality]

Vivek ananda,

I am with Vivgood... . I think the conversation was pretty normal for a good relationship.  Talking about movies, your dd thinking the 2 times together were an improvement sounds mature to me, shopping to cook meals is a very important life-giving activity... . I am not being sarcastic... . it sounds all good... .

Vivek ananda, I hear so much sadness in you, so much sadness.  Understandably.  Would it help to write down why you are so sad?  Just for yourself, if you like.  You have a right to feel sad.  It is God-awful not to see your daughter.  Please feel your sadness.  Or we could listen... .

What are ten things you love about your daughter?  Write them down.  Write down 10 beautiful memories and read them every morning. 

Remember, for you, with your unique gifts x and y are super easy.  Your dd lives in slow time, sloow. 

Reality

[vivekananda]

thank you all - RR, Viv, HB, Reality. All helpful, esp yours Viv. I need some time to absorb it. Yes I am very badly hurting at the moment. I am off for a weekend in Sydney. Maybe it'll all be clearer after a couple of days away.

Cheers,

Vivek    

[mggt]

Dar Vivek ,  So happy you saw your daughter and had some time with her no matter how it went.  I am not sure if you have any other children to be honest I cant remember.  Next time you see her just breath and take it slow as a turtle .  I wish all the luck in the world all continents and one day at a time and with bps one moment at a time enjoy your weekend and have fun.     

[Fay]

Hi,

Have you read of a book called "The Four Agreements" by Miguel Ruiz. Has nothing to do with BPD.  It has to do with changing the way we think.  I have the four agreements written down on my fridg to remind me every day.   This is a daily reminder for me. 

The Four Agreements

1) Be impeccable with your word.  Don't say anything bad about yourself or others.  Don't lie, don't gossip.

2) Don't take ANY thing personally.  What someone else says, it is not about you it is about them.  It is only an opinion. 

3) Don't make assumptions.  Don't assume you know what one might do or not do. How they feel ect. 

4) Always do your best.  If you are doing your best in the moment what else can you do?  Now, your best might be different from day to day.  So your best is your best. 

I am grateful for this place. 

It sounds as if Vivek  you are in the same place I am right now.  Over thinking how NOT to upset the BPD. Because I too want a relationship with her.  However, it will never be "how" I might want it to be.  Taking my advice, listening to all pearls of mighty wisdom, or understanding relationship communication.     

This has helped so much.  It is helping me right now.  Reminding me... . I am doing my best and so is our DD's.  Somedays are better than others.

Thanks

Fay

[pessim-optimist]

Hi Vivek ,

I found a nice dictionary definition of "judgement" (judgmental being the adjective under the same entry):

'An ability to make decisions or evaluations that are wise, reasonable, and valid.'

I wish that for all of us here, and for all of our dear children.

Vivgood made a great point regarding judgement, in my opinion.

I think if we are trying to help someone, 'being judgmental' becomes a problem when we start pushing (however subtly) our judgments onto others who are not interested, or incapable of receiving such information in order benefit them. Our ASSESSMENT then becomes an INDICTMENT.

I think the challenge is for us to find a way to make the pwBPD truly feel like we are their ally (compassionate and supportive) gently helping them on their way. If they sense those indictments, we become their enemy (our judgement standing as a club ready to hit them over their head, saying "you are a bad person, because bla bla".

At least that's what I took from lbj's comment "compassionate and supportive, not judgmental".

[qcarolr]

Vivek  -

You are such an intelligent and sensitive woman. Sometimes that makes it easy to overthink things. My take on your visit is that your D is reaching out for connection to you. This takes courage and compassion from each of you. Can you find the courage to be compassionate with yourself, for yourself? Others have made good observations of so many positives  in this short visit with her.

Patience - baby steps - things are changing, building. Maybe your D did hear your comments about NF T and a seed has been planted. It has to grow with what your D is able to do with it. I have found this with my DD. It is soo hard to keep my mouth shut, especially when I am bouncing around center inside myself. So I try to forgive myself for my human imperfection so I can feel the positive steps my DD is taking -- and allowing me now to take with her.

Enjoy your weekend in Sydney. Be kind to yourself

qcr  

[jellibeans]

I am coming to this thread late but it really has a lot of good advise and I wanted to throw my 2 cent in.

First I can feel your pain Vivek ... . your struggle to try to repair your relationship with your dd and hoping the words you speak don't further separate the two of you. We are all searching for the magic words but I am not sure they exist. I have to agree with the approach Reality suggested... . the asking questions... . I really think that is the best approach.

Not being judgmental is something I am working on too... . even when I don't say something that is judgmental my dd can turn it into that very easily so I am not sure it is possible to be nonjudgemental if the other person is looking for that... . so maybe try to ask questions about whats for dinner etc for the first few encounters might make her more open to discussing deeper issues.

I think take it slowly and don't expect too much... . baby steps... . sending you a hug... . don't be hard on yourself... . feel like you are at times but everything you do and say only shows how much you are willing to do to repair your r/s with your dd.  

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[vivekananda]

Thank you all. I had a good weekend 

Feeling better about the meeting with dd, especially with the reiteration of the wise words about baby steps, slow turtles etc. Thanks for the book advice Fay and the 4 Agreements - that bears further investigation.

Re being judgemental: a thesaurus check shows it is always a negative, a perjorative. It is about being critical in an unhelpful way. It is different to judging which does mean to make a wise decision (thanks pessio and vivgood for your insight here). And therein is the trap perhaps: falling into a judgemental mode, thinking I am just judging a situation. Being judgemental involves an attitude or trait ... . it is a default position, a way of separating oneself from behaviours/people that one does not 'approve of' eg 'look at that dirty person begging, you'd think they'd have a wash at least... . '. Implicit in this is I think a power relationship. It means labelling the other, making them lesser, perhaps even stereotyping them so the whole person is not seen.

Here's how my thinking has gone last few days. When I meet with dd and looked closely at the underlying attitude or trait behind how and what she said, I described it to dh as being self righteously superior. She likes to feel she is in control (of course), and that means she needs to know more than me, better than me. This is a power relationship, and she needs to feel powerful. This was what I came to see after the last 'blow up' we had earlier this year. This is what has been a feature of her relationship with me since adolescence.

Her diagnosis of PTSD gives her a rationale to feel superior, because I am to blame for her state of mental health, because she believes I caused it with my so called abuse of her. While she holds onto that, I believe she will always be the same. While she continues to have the illusion of a relationship with me, she can continue to blame me for stuff that goes wrong with her.

It is not possible to get beyond this, I believe. She will not meet with me any more than a few of times a year. That does not allow for the development of a relationship. Relationships need contact. She is in total control of what the topic of conversation is, there is nothing except validation of what she raises that can be discussed and it has to be superficial chit chat stuff. Unless it involves something she wants.

Where does this leave me? It leaves me reminding myself that I do not want to be in a power relationship with anyone in my personal life I neither want to be subject to someone's judgemental thinking, neither do I want to think of others in a judgmental way. For myself it means not initiating contact with my dd - at least for a while. Dh can pick up the baton and see how he goes. I am tired of carrying the burden of blame for her situation. I am tired of other's judgement of me as the 'bad' mother also. And as an antidote to my own predisposition to being judgemental, I need to practice humility. Perhaps then, when I can be more humble, I can try again.

Yes, I do 'think' a lot. It is being able to explain how things seem that helps me understand. If I understand then I can learn how to deal with it. And I hope that in 'thinking out loud' with you, can also give you further thoughts too. I know that your wise words and generous support and your patience with me, does help me.

I am going to write a list of 10 things that cause me to feel happy... . and then set about doing them! And also the list of 10 things about dd (Reality   )

lots of love to you all,

Vivek      

[Thursday]

hi Vivek ,

I am so late in joining this discussion. I re-read from the beginning and it seems your weekend away has given you some space to figure things out on your own.

Before I read your last posting I was struck by your desire to "do right" and thought to myself that you would make a great Zen master. I'm not positive but feel like I might be correct in that you, in your identifying that giving up ego might be a worthwhile move, are far more motivated than me to be a better person. It is an admirable trait, especially in light of the fact that you are dealing with an adult child with BPD.

Where does this leave me? It leaves me reminding myself that I do not want to be in a power relationship with anyone in my personal life I neither want to be subject to someone's judgemental thinking, neither do I want to think of others in a judgmental way. For myself it means not initiating contact with my dd - at least for a while. Dh can pick up the baton and see how he goes. I am tired of carrying the burden of blame for her situation. I am tired of other's judgement of me as the 'bad' mother also. And as an antidote to my own predisposition to being judgemental, I need to practice humility. Perhaps then, when I can be more humble, I can try again.

I hope that the above will allow more contact with your daughter when you are ready to try again.

In your earlier posts in this thread the power play seemed clear. And so long as this is the case, it seems near impossible to have a deeply satisfying relationship. If you flip things around though, start where you are starting, in wanting to have a relationship... . no matter what your DD offers, bending (like a pliable stalk of wheat in a wind storm) is likely the only way to accomplish having a relationship with your daughter. Ignore the power struggle, don't participate.

I read some notes I took at an Al-anon meeting when we (BPDSD21's Dad and Me) first started going on a regular basis. The speaker was speaking about having a relationship with her alcoholic son, how he manipulated to get what he wanted out of each of their encounters. The speaker found that she had to give up any ideas she herself had about having a "more meaningful, adult, healthy" relationship and to simply be good with just being in proximity to her son... . no advice, no money, just love and support. She also talked about the son, in being able to have power over her, manipulate her, etc. having little or diminished respect for her.  In not offering advice, in not giving him money there was no place the son could place his negative judgment onto her and their relationship improved. She did mention (and I noted) that they didn't have a fulfilling relationship, such as she had with her other son. I don't know if this less fulfilling relationship would feel ok or enough if she didn't have another son. I know your DD is your only child.

This speaker also said something beyond wise (and maybe this is a much quoted piece in Al-anon)

"The lower the expectations, the higher the serenity."

And she ended her talk with a discussion of grieving her expectations as a loss and the pain of accepting that her son was outside of her ability to help. She asked the group if their alcoholic/drug addicted loved ones had cancer, would we be able to accept that helping to heal them was outside of our abilities (barring that anyone in the audience was an oncologist). At the time we started going to al-anon we had no idea that my SD was actually an addict. We were there substituting "alcoholic" for pwpbd. Frankly, making the substitution works.

I've given this subject a lot of thought. It is likely that I will always think that my SD isn't working up to her potential, isn't treating the people in her life the way "she should".  I don't muddy the relationship that we have by sharing any of this with her.  It wouldn't change anything were I to do so. IN offering my point of view here, I am cognizant that I am her Step-Mom. Her outcomes have so much less impact on my ego than they do on her Dad's. Thankfully though, he is much better at letting go of expectations than I am.

xoxo,

Thursday

[Thursday]

Me again.

I also wanted to sort of reiterate what others above have said. We are only human. In a philosophical way, really, if it was an easy thing, to have no judgments, would we even be here? My judgment that SD is not OK is what brought me here, afterall.

My judgments bring me here. My judgments keep me here in my periodic frustrations and venting... . much venting.

And in the process of coming I read what the experts say. I find out about validation and give it a try. Nobody wants to have the BPD/non struggle. I mean it, who would want such a struggle with another person as a regular aspect of their life... . peace is eroded, we are kept off kilter, heck, the unexpected phone calls alone would curl even the straightest hair! People with BPD are so difficult that even professionals don't want to take them on. The definition of their disorder explains why we have such a hard time. Many (read MOST) of the moments when I feel love for SD in the most outstanding moments of feeling love and compassion for her are when she gains insight. I think I'm pretty normal as regards this.

And yet, those moments are few and far between. A flash in the pan.

Any of us here who strive to make their communications with the pwBPD better is on a better path.

And then you find out these unaccustomed tools actually make life better with your BPD loved one.

And then we find out these unaccustomed tools actually make life better with everyone, not just the pwBPD.

Seems like validation is becoming a part of our culture as citizens on the planet Earth. I like that show Sister Wives (such an interesting view of another way of being, judgments not withstanding, ) and last night the episode I watched (maybe an older episode as a re-run) one of the wives said something and the husband replied in a very invalidating way... .

And one of the other wives said, (I paraphrase)

"You suck at validating." and all of the wives came to the defense of the invalidated wife and she felt better instantly.

Anyway... .

I also have a question for Vivek ... . did your daughter initiate the NC or did you and your husband?

Is the acronym NC to describe when a decision is made by the non to end contact for their own benefit? Is it still named NC when the pwBPD withdraws their involvement? Just curious... .

And lastly, no matter what I learn and how much I read I find myself reactive when my SD, in my judgment, starts working in negativity. Just found out, through her GM, that SD claimed to GM a level of distress at our recent trip to visit my daughter for 4th of July. SD was not "invited" or "included". I'm struggling to find peaceful equilibrium that SD would say this to her GM. All of my negative interactions with SD tell me that she was trying to gain sympathy from her GM.

There are plenty of reasons why SD could not have gone with us. There are also plenty of reasons why SD would not have been invited to go with us. SD knows that her GM has no idea of much if any of the history, most of which has directly to do with SD and her behavior but the truth is, even if things were fine between my daughter and SD, even if things were fine between my husband and SD and me and SD, this was not a trip that she would ever have been invited to accompany us on and she knows all of the reasons, both practical and emotional. And yet, her GM runs this by us as if we are to blame for SD being sad about it.

Bah... . this stuff is hard. I am so NOT "Zen" about any of this. I just want to not get all "ick" about it. Inhale, vent, exhale.

Always glad we have this forum. Keeps the top of my head from coming off.

Now that I have vented I can have a higher level of empathy for SD. It helps me to take the edge off of my own angst in order to be better able to be less judgmental towards her. I think this is my human nature. Sure it would be better if I could find a way to get to a place of understanding without being so negative in my thinking.


I forgive myself for being too old and tired for that monumental climb.



Thurs

[qcarolr]

What a dilemma. It seems to me I can say nothing. Since she was 18 I have been unable to say anything that she didn’t see as agreeable, I have been unable to initiate topics of conversation without them seeming to be judgemental in her eyes… and they probably were… She wants us to have a relationship, she wants to get better but I feel powerless in helping her. Do I have to be powerless? And how do I say things without them being seen as judgemental?

So back to Vivek 's initial post, above. What about powerlessness? I feel powerless in the impact my words or actions have on DD27. Or on anyone actually. When I stop to twist and turn the thoughts in my head before I speak, well I often end up sitting in silence. This silence is then interpreted as being judgemental, esp. by DD. Can't seem to get those validating phrases and questions into retrievable memory.

NC in our house comes from me -- DD always has things to say to me. When she is revved up every single word, glance, silent moment is interpreted as a judgemental statement against her. She is in 'externalize mode'. When she has those occasions to be introspective, which do happen, then we can at least start a conversation. Until what seems an innocent comment shifts her zone to external again.  She is cycling much more quickly, and has the exbf to vent her rageful feelings on right now. And she needs me -- needs family -- needs contact -- while she is in jail. She apologizes often after a bad episode these past 6 months or so, when she gets back to an introspective place. So maybe she is not using meth when she is kind? Or others around her are being kind to her, meeting her needs in some way? Maybe there is a match right now between what I am willing to give and what she is asking for/needs. Maybe it is MY NEED TO BE NEEDED.

Can love really work if it is going only one direction? Again, we are only human. Truly unconditional love may be unsustainable without some outside source to replenish us. So this leads me back to self-care; connection to others that can support me; leaning on my faith in God (ie. power greater than myself).

What do you all think?

qcr  

[Thursday]

Here is what I think... .

powerlessness- what a huge thing to think about. I've lost a husband to cancer, so I think I know a thing or two about powerlessness. In the end it was better to let go. Letting go became a beautiful thing and I'm not sure this is understandable if you haven't been through it. I've said this to people who have not been through it and they look at me funny.   

I admit I am powerless to affect outcomes. I believe we live out our fates. I can contribute and live and form relationships and try not to interfere with the peace of another, go about spreading some love, give a smile, share a laugh. I have personal power to decide which way to go, which sounds like a contradiction to believing we live out our fate but it's not.

Vivek , what is it you wish to have power over or with or for? I wish I had the power to get inside of my SD's head and understand her and to change her mind about how she (seemingly) refuses to sit with any pain whatsoever. Life truly is suffering. I feel like happiness is the mortar that keeps the hard bricks of suffering from crushing us.

I can accept what life hands me better by applying patience. Time sure does change things, doesn't it? When I really feel like wringing my hands, I remind myself that time will change the situation so it seems best to get on with stuff, stay in the moment as best I can, hopefully laugh at my humanness  and have hope for a better future.

Can love really work if it is going only one direction? Again, we are only human. Truly unconditional love may be unsustainable without some outside source to replenish us. So this leads me back to self-care; connection to others that can support me; leaning on my faith in God (ie. power greater than myself).

Those are beautiful thoughts Q.

Vivek , I am just so sorry for your situation. I hope you someday find a way to have a more fulfilling relationship with your daughter. It seems like you have found a key component.

Wishing you peace.

thursday

[vivekananda]

oh my, what wonderful friends I have here. I feel very loved and cared for, and without you it would be so much harder. Thurs thank you for your insight and thoughts, so helpful - I have been truly touched. I do need to lower expectations though, Zen master I don't think so   maybe in another lifetime, not this one. Not if you saw me at a football match  

Dd had her meltdown which brought her to the edge about 18mths ago - when I first joined here. She initiated the n/c. She has always been 'secretive'. The last serious n/c she initiated was when dh, her dad was near the end of his life with liver disease, awaiting a transplant. After his successful transplant, she wouldn't even visit him. She was 20, on a serious drug bender at the time, doing all sorts of terrible stuff that he because he was so ill, was unaware of. Her reasons for n/c are complicated I think. She feels shame because she has not met expectations (she has always said I have put so much pressure on her to achieve - but I wouldn't see that at all), she feels resentment because the world hasn't given her what she wants. She feels powerful because she knows it hurts both dh and I. And this is sad because underneath it all is a dutiful daughter who tries to do the right thing... . she is a beautiful person inside.

I think you came to the crux of the issue... . can you have a non reciprocal relationship? I don't think so. But I am not sure if this is where dd and I are at. I think my issues are that I struggle with superficiality. You know me, I think, I am a bit cerebral. I do have a good sense of humour, but it is a bit twisted, even black. If I want to talk about movies, I want to touch on the issues and themes covered, the technicalities of camera work, dialogue etc. not if Di Caprio is getting old or Nicole Kidman has lost it or whatever. Of course some people might think football is superficial (I don't   but dd doesn't like football.

So, maybe I need to withdraw from trying to develop a relationship, for my own sake. Yes I can regird my loins and try again when I have become more balanced in myself. Interestingly, dd who self righteously told me 'don't you understand I am in the non active treatment phase?' or something like that... . well she contacted us yesterday to ask us to pay for a T visit this Wed... . maybe our catch up provoked this?

See, many of you can raise a topic with your children without a negative response. I feel there is nothing I can say that can be guaranteed not to draw a sharp retort or put down or patronising retort. She is, I think, totally defensive with me. She is permanently on alert to protect herself from me. Of course you would if your mother had abused you all her life... .

It's interesting my mum was udBPD, this is how I was with her most of her life. This is a weird karma isn't it? A child of a parent with BPD, now a parent of a child with BPD (and a sister too). Thursday the only way to survive this is to actively work on those things such as letting go of ego, loving kindness and so on, to so otherwise would lead to insanity for me I think. I am so grateful that I was a teenager taught by nuns in the 60s, I got a solid foundation of values and social justice out of that.

Any of us here who strive to make their communications with the pwBPD better is on a better path.

And then you find out these unaccustomed tools actually make life better with your BPD loved one.

And then we find out these unaccustomed tools actually make life better with everyone, not just the pwBPD.

This is at the core, isn't it? Validation is a practice that brings us to mindfulness. Mindfulness, compassion and a purpose in life is what brings us happiness. Validation isn't just what we do for others, it is what we also do for ourselves - it can teach us how to meet our own emotional needs. In practising validation we not only can create a basis for our relationship with those we best wishes, we can take it into our everyday life with strangers.

So, if I am being judgemental, there is an emotional need underlying that practice. Being judgemental is a defence mechanism, to create an 'outsider' of the other, to create a separateness, to create an explanation as to why that person/situation, doesn't deserve my compassion, my validation, my care and courtesy, my respect.

If this is right, and perhaps it is at least in part, then it is caused by an anxiety or insecurity. I said earlier that I needed to work on humility, That made sense to me. To be humble means to accept that I don't know everything, means to accept that I am safe as I am - I don't need to know everything (I can learn from others, I can 'trust in the universe'. To relieve the anxiety that causes me to be judgemental, means to ... . let go of ego, to trust in the universe (god), to know and accept who I am - to be humble.

If dd were to contact me, I would be there for her. I think I need to rebuild my strength, regain my balance and not initiate contact for a while at least.

When I stop to twist and turn the thoughts in my head before I speak, well I often end up sitting in silence. This silence is then interpreted as being judgemental,

So, to be truly validating means to be authentic to oneself, as well as the other. If I am in a situation where I am seen as being judgemental even when silent, I would think: either I am not able to be truly authentic at the present moment or the other person is projecting their judgment onto me.

I was remembering after I spoke to my dd yesterday and she sounded so sweet, a pwBPD changes minute to minute, day to day. How she is one time, does not mean she will be like it 10 mins later. Why do I expect logic and consistency? And yet I do because that is how I want it to be.

Can love really work if it is going only one direction? Again, we are only human. Truly unconditional love may be unsustainable without some outside source to replenish us. So this leads me back to self-care; connection to others that can support me; leaning on my faith in God (ie. power greater than myself).

Love and a relationship are two different things. I think we can love our pwBPD and not expect a relationship - and that is where we parents are caught. Regardless of what we think or want, we have a relationship with our children - even if they are adults and we never see them. That bond never goes away. That relationship may starve for lack of attention, it may shrivel up but it won't ever die. Or so I believe. Relationships need to be nurtured, if they are taken for granted, they become unhealthy. If we ignore them, we are the lesser for it. Nonetheless to manage a relationship with a child (adult child) with BPD requires strength from us that probably does not come naturally to us. So, we have to change ourselves and gain that internal strength to be able to open ourselves to the universe (or God) and be strong in the face of such constant pain and hurt.

and again I have written too long... . does anyone read it all?

Thurs, your last post: That's just the thing. I don't want power over anyone but I don't want to feel powerless. Hmmm  

Vivek     

[qcarolr]

Vivek  - i read everthing, can't help myself. And all you write is good reading for me. creates deeper thinking in me and a desire to find out more. I was googling for "stop being judgemental" and read a lot of interesting blog type sites with lots of comments.

compassion is the other side of judgemental

we are hard-wired to be judgemental - based on infant studies of preferences for other babies, ie. 87% of 3-month olds prefer babies eating the same cereal they were. i do find this makes sense with the interpersoanl neuroscience I have read. hard-wired to scan for safety, and safety is what looks, feels, acts like me.

becoming more mature with age creates ability to be curious about others, to feel safe with ourselves and leads to questions - we have to become aware of our judgemental nature to move in a new direction in our relationships.

Relationships that have synergy - that build up each other - this is what we are designed for to be nutured to grow up. Sadly many with dysfunction - esp. BPD - are unable to give back. For many reasons based on each individuals make up. And since they cannot give back, they cannot take in the very compassion that would help them grow up. And they resist the very treatments that could help them move beyond these blocks in their lives. This is so sad for me.

It is a gift that DD does have coherent moments - gives me hope. Then she sinks back into darkness, and I become afraid. It is this fear that I need to find understanding about, then I can better take care of myself. Then I can continue to grow in my other r/s and allow DD to be who she is. And manage to still love her regardless.

Feels very circular this line of thought. Maybe need to sleep on all this. DD was in angry place in her call this evening - sinking in that I she is stuck in jail until someone else says she can get out. I confronted her about her pattern of relentless stalking behavior when she is angry with someone. From my own experiences with her - sharing some of those with her. And asking if this is how she was with both exbf"M" this past month, and with exbf"G" (he ended up in jail - has failed probation and on his way soon to 2 years in prison, not county jail). OOPS, maybe this is hijacking.

Keep thinking and feeling and learning and sharing. We all have such stories to share.

qcr    

[vivekananda]

OOPS, maybe this is hijacking.

What's mine is yours here   qcr I value your comments but will also have to reflect and get back to you. I love what you said about being judgemental  ... . that makes it easier. Also I want to know what is in your life and your dd and gd and dh. hijacking? ... . never!

Cheers,

Vivek      

[crazedncrazymom]

Hi Vive,

Wow, I'm so sorry you're feeling so uncertain right now.  I've been thinking on your situation since I read your post yesterday.  It must be so hard to want to help so much and be afraid of rejection.  My dd is only 16 so it's a little easier for me to have those types of talks because she can't run away and not talk to me for months if I make her mad.  Her biggest option is to stomp herself upstairs and slam the door.

However, the same principle may work for you and your daughter.  Ask her if you can ask some questions.  Tell her how often you think of her and wonder if she's happy.  Is there anything you can do to help?  Moms are supposed to be there to support their daughters and because of the distance you don't feel like you're able to be supportive and would really like to fix it.  Or you could start off by telling her how much you think of her and you saw this article about this really cool new thing called neuro feedback.  Ever heard of it? 

I've found that with my daughter as long as she feels like she has the power to stop and change the conversation she is more open with me.  DD can I ask you some questions/talk to you about xyz.  NO!  Well alrighty then.  The weather sure is nice.  Sometimes she says yes and she is very open to listening to me.  I have to say though, it really is hard to remember that whatever her problem is at the moment is her problem and not mine.  It's so hard to remember to be there and listen and help guide her if I can and not make the problem my own to solve.