Invalidation and family dynamics

[alembic]

Had a terrible evening yesterday.

My wife is an undiagnosed pwBPD, and we have three children, a son 11, and two daughters, 8 and 4.  The older two are showing some symptoms of BPD as well by now.

We wanted to go out to a restaurant to celebrate the recent exam success of our son, 11.   Things already went wrong in the car to the restaurant, because the children all started to compete for the right to speak and be listened to by us, so started shouting each other down. Our son got so incensed that he couldn't speak to us whenever he wanted that he demanded we turn the car around and go back home.  We refused, and instead I asked the children to try and tolerate each other.

At the restaurant, things didn't go any better. Our son had some sort of dispute with his mother, claiming she was blaming him for something or other, and started squabbling with his 8 year old sister.  The two girls were also very unruly and rolled around on the floor, annoying the other customers.  The whole meal was very unpleasant.

I asked our son at the restaurant if he could please be a bit less negative towards his sister, because she has quite a few BPD traits, and often becomes hysterical when she feels she has been 'wronged' by someone else in the family.  He said that being more positive (or even polite) to his sister would be lying, and because he is an honest person, he did not want to lie.

I let this drop at the restaurant, but later on at home, I went and had a chat with him in his room, and I tried to explain to him that being polite and respectful isn't the same thing as lying.   I tried to elaborate that it isn't possible for everyone in the world to say exactly what they think all of the time, and that in a civilized society it's always a compromise in life between what you feel is right and 'true' for you, and what the expectations of others are.

Our son is really bright, so I was hopeful that he might have understood what I was getting it, but instead he completely, utterly, lost it.   He tried to run away from the house several times, kept screaming at the top of his voice what a horrible Dad I was, how I had made him cry (I hadn't... . ), how I always kept 'doing this' to him 'again and again'  (It's actually months since I've tried to influence his behaviour).  He normally tells me what a great Dad I am. When I asked him exactly what I was 'doing again and again', he wouldn't tell me.   I had to essentially validate everything he said, no matter how angry or bizarre it was for about an hour before he finally started to calm down. I eventually persuaded him to start watching a DVD, and that helped snap him out of it.   My wife was all for calling the emergency services, particularly because she believed I must have done something to him to cause this incident - she likes implicating me in all incidents that cause our children severe distress, because she is convinced all of our family problems are my fault, and tries to persuade social services of this, too.

It wasn't until this morning that I manage to persuade our son to tell me what I had done wrong.  He didn't use these words, but he essentially described how I emotionally invalidated him when we talked in his room about not being able to always do or say what you want in society.  By expecting him to behave respectfully towards others, he claims I am invaliding his personal viewpoint and the feelings he has on how to treat other people, and that this is very wrong of me.  When he says I do this 'again' and 'again', he is thinking back to other occasions (months and years ago in the past) when I have tried to similarly influence his thinking on topics.

Anyone come across this, and how did you deal with it?  If he comes out with stuff that just seems plain wrong -  e.g. 'I should be able to do whatever I want since they're my authentic feelings', how do I avoid invalidating those feelings, without leaving him with the impression it's acceptable to do whatever he wants, and that the other family members don't count?

We live in the UK, and BPD does not seem to have as high a profile here as in the US. We're currently in regular touch with state services regarding our children, but they're regarding it as a behavioural problem, with no mental health aspects. I've tried to persuade them that I don't believe this is the case - our son's behaviour was very extreme and largely out of character for him last night, but things like BPD simply aren't on their radar.  Children in the UK are in general very reluctantly diagnosed with mental health problems because of their supposedly 'developing minds', in that they might grow out of it.

Thoughts?

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[griz]

Hi Traddad:

11 is very young and I at this age I don't know if it is uncommon for him to confuse his right to have his feelings and his obligation to act accordingly, but it certainly is something he needs to learn.  How is he with friends or in school? Does he say whatever he wants to friends or teachers?  How about the girls. Is there unruly behavior seen outside of family situations?  I am asking this just to see if it is pervasive in their lives or just a family dynamic.

I remember when my two daughters were young, they are six years apart in age, we had gone to a restaurant and my DD who was 4 at the time decided she was going to act up in the restaurant.  We gave her two warnings and told her the third time she would be removed from the restaurant.  She tested us again and my dh removed her from the restaurant and took her outside and told her she would not be allowed back in until her behavior changed.  Being very strong willed she tested him to the limit and he just kept telling her that when her behavior improved she could go back in.  Well it took about an hour and my older daughter and I had eaten dinner alone but when they came back in her behavior was completely different.  What are your family boundaries for behavior? Do the children have consequences for their behavior?

Sorry for all the questions, just trying to understand.

Griz

[alembic]

Hi Traddad:

11 is very young and I at this age I don't know if it is uncommon for him to confuse his right to have his feelings and his obligation to act accordingly, but it certainly is something he needs to learn.  How is he with friends or in school?

Does he say whatever he wants to friends or teachers? 

Hi griz.

The thing is, at school he's generally very well behaved. He's sociable, has a good circle of friends, school reported no problems to us - does very well academically.  Only, when he gets home, in the last year or so he lets out all his frustrations out on us.  Gets very angry and upset about the teachers, school rules, society's rules in general, but says nothing to the teachers at the time about any of these things. In fact he sometimes tells the teachers that everything is fine at school, and he enjoys it.  I wonder whether this aspect is similar to 'splitting' in that he has more than one view of school at the same time, and he tells the school one thing, and us a completely different thing.

How about the girls. Is there unruly behavior seen outside of family situations?  I am asking this just to see if it is pervasive in their lives or just a family dynamic.

Similar story there - the eight year old daughter is a model pupil - school didn't suspect anything was wrong, but she has enormous tantrums at home. She recently threatened to hurt herself with a kitchen knife, and often threatens and even attempts to kick in doors, windows etc. Other times she is as good as gold - you wouldn't think it was the same child. The bad behaviour only seems to manifest at home (so far).  The four year old is starting to copy her older sister.  All of them behave well outside the home, though.

What are your family boundaries for behavior? Do the children have consequences for their behavior?

Here my wife and I have a different view/attitude to things, which may be part of the cause of the problem.  Initially, my wife lightly admonishes the child, and then leaves it at that.  She feels that anything more a light-admonishment is heavy-handed, and puts my approach firmly into that category.  She carries on lightly admonishing them if their behaviour doesn't stop, which often proves to be ineffective, up to the point she can't stand it any more, and then at some point starts screaming and shouting at them for their misbehaviour.  This normally shocks them out of whatever it is they're doing, eventually my wife calms down, blames the kids' behaviour for making her explode, and goes back to lightly admonishing them.

I tend to be firmer earlier and more consistent in what I ask for than my wife, which when she's in the 'admonishing' phase, she regards as 'heavy-handed' and often sides with the kids against me - calls me 'grumpy Daddy', for example.  But the kids seem to respect me more for it, and I don't need to resort to screaming and shouting at them, because they usually do what I ask them to do.   She also doesn't like punishments, or anything that prolongs the memory of the bad behaviour for the kids. She thinks the kids should be gently reprimanded, and then immediately forgiven, because anything else is just carrying on a negative attitude towards the children.

I've tried to talk to my wife that I don't think these light admonishments work, and cause things to deteriorate to the point where she can't cope any more and has to shout, but because the kids are very sensitive, she thinks any more than this will upset them, and do more harm than good.  She thinks any action that has lasting consequences for a child is a step too far.

The kids' behaviour doesn't improve, in fact it's been getting much worse of late, but my wife just finds other explanations for why the kids are behaving like this - for example, that often I have upset them with my 'insensitive' approach to discipline. She blames me, for example, that our son lost it yesterday evening, and thinks I shouldn't have tried to talk to him about not letting his negative feelings out on other family members, because she thinks it was too much of a telling off for him, whereas in fact I just tried to explain quite reasonably to him why he can't just act on his feelings.  I didn't expect at all the mountain of anger and bile that came out of him. He very well how to behave at school, but all boundaries and limits to behavious seem to disappear at home.

[jellibeans]

traddad

Children of this age are going to test the limits and I feel it is best to say the least as possible. I think it is better for the consequences for their actions speak for themselves. If the kids started acting up in the car on the way to dinner I think I would of seriously thought of turning around and going home. If they were unable to behave in the car then the resturant was not going to make it better. I am assuming they wanted to go out for dinner and that this was a treat. I would tried to talk with them when they were calm and ready to listen at a later time. I think having consequences for their actions is the best approach.

More importantly you and you wife need to get on the same page... . if the children sense the divide then they will pit you against each other... . I would sit down with your wife and set some ground rules going forard and come to an agreement.

Maybe it is time to set some ground rules for the house in general... . I have rules divided into three groups... . repect for one's self (under this list we have things like not self harming, peircings, tattoos, dressing respectfully, no drugs etc)... . repect for family ( we speak kindly to one another, no swearing, follow direction etc... . )  and respect for our home ( keeping our room clean, not damaging our home, etc.) My dd16 is older so your rules can be geared to younger children. It might be good to set up a list like this and even ask for your childrens input. there should be some natural consequences for not following the rules. Having it written down for all to see makes it easy to follow. Good luck

[griz]

I think jellibeans has some great ideas as it does seem like this is a family dynamic.  It is very important that you and your wife get on the same page.  You may have to compromise a little but then again so will she.  Having rules is very important and works well.  There are rules in school... . so they are followed.  Clearly he follow social rules if he has a group of friends.  It sounds as if when they get home there are no clear rules.  Asking for their input is a great idea.  It helps them work things out in their minds, feel like they have some control and feel heard.

I have a friend who recently was having a terrible time with her son, raging, terrible behavior and physical.  She lost her husband about two years ago and his behavior has only gotten worse.  He said to her one day last week that he just wants his old family back (he has said this alot over the past two years).  I offered a suggestion to her that she should validate his feelings... . "I know it is so hard to adjust to our new life and I find it hard sometimes also.  We will always have our memories but we cannot recreate the past but we can create new memories and a new family unit".  Part Two: Give him the power to make changes: "Could you maybe be in charge of coming up with a list of ideas that we could start doing to create our own new family unit".  He actually loved the idea and has spent a lot of time coming up with suggestions.  She has been able to sit down with him and talk about things he has thought of and even things that he thinks are not good.

Maybe your kids could have a project of coming up with house rules.  You could even encourage some humor in them.  Maybe even some rewards for following the rules but also consequences for not following them.  If they are home from school now with alot of down time maybe it could even be a fun project.  Buy some poster board and colorful markers where they could actually create a rule chart and decorate it. 

Griz

[pessim-optimist]

Hi traddad,

I think that being firmer earlier and having consequences is a very good approach.

You have stated that your wife is an undiagnosed pwBPD - that will make it difficult for you to get on the same page and to be consistent... .

So sorry you are having to deal with such a difficult situation. It must be depressing to see all your kids develop problems. And you being the one blamed for it is an insult to injury... .

I hope that someone with more experience will post here as well to give advice on how to navigate the "getting on the same page" with your wife, because I think that is the key - just don't know myself, how to accomplish it.

Do you think you could talk to a therapist about it, or is it not a good possibility where you live?

[Reality]

It wasn't until this morning that I manage to persuade our son to tell me what I had done wrong.  He didn't use these words, but he essentially described how I emotionally invalidated him when we talked in his room about not being able to always do or say what you want in society.  By expecting him to behave respectfully towards others, he claims I am invaliding his personal viewpoint and the feelings he has on how to treat other people, and that this is very wrong of me.  When he says I do this 'again' and 'again', he is thinking back to other occasions (months and years ago in the past) when I have tried to similarly influence his thinking

I wonder if there is a kernel of truth to what your son is saying.  Sometimes it is a matter of style.  It may not be your expectations.  It might be the way you are expressing them.  It might also be too overwhelming for a highly-sensitive person to have these heart-to-heart talks.  I agree with your son that he has a right to fine-tune his own ways of doing things.  You know, this could simply be a matter of different temperaments.  He also has a right to express his way of thinking. 

Having a mother with BPD dx or not is extraordinarily difficult for the children.  Creates a sense of chaos, no safety.  It is very important that the family figure out the basic rules, just like teachers and students do at the beginning of the school year.  With all that sensitivity, structure is critical.  That is why your children function well at school. 

A T might be very helpful for you and your wife to work out the basic parenting parameters you need. Sometimes an objective person can be extraordinarily helpful.  A few good shared values on how to create an orderly home-life for your lovely children.  They sound like exceptional souls. 

Reality

[alembic]

I wonder if there is a kernel of truth to what your son is saying. 

Well, in a way, yes, because I was trying to influence his thinking.

But I think my point is that this is part of a parent's job. It's called socializing the children.

Parenting would obviously be much simpler if you let your children do and believe whatever they like.  But I don't think it is really good parental practice to do so.

I wasn't trying to persuade him of anything particularly controversial - just trying to get him to understand that he can't say whatever he wants to other people, particularly others in the family, and somehow escape the consequences of doing that. 

My position is that you can believe whatever you like, but in a civilized society you should try and be polite and respectful to others unless the situation absolutely demands that you aren't.  I don't think it's a healthy point of view to believe that your right to an opinion somehow translates into a right to inflict that opinion on others, especially when it's hurtful.

[alembic]

Do you think you could talk to a therapist about it, or is it not a good possibility where you live?

Hello pessim-optimist, thanks for the encouraging post.

We've tried recently to talk to a therapist, but it didn't go well.  Whenever a third party is involved, my wife just plays the victim, and cries all through the sessions.  She tries to get the therapist on her side by exaggerating, shifting events in time, leaving important stuff out, the usual sort of thing BPDs do.  It's just a waste of time, because she never goes into it with the intention of trying to find some sort of compromise - just another opportunity to try and bludgeon me into submission.

[heronbird]

hi Tradad,

Where do you live in UK. I am in UK and trying to start a teaching group in London, let me know if you are interested.

Valerie Porrs book overcoming BPD is very good, and might help you.

Google TARA and see what they offer, I am trying to do something similar in UK

You can also get intouch with Rethink mental illness, they are good support too

[pessim-optimist]

We've tried recently to talk to a therapist, but it didn't go well.  Whenever a third party is involved, my wife just plays the victim, ... .

... . It's just a waste of time, because she never goes into it with the intention of trying to find some sort of compromise - just another opportunity to try and bludgeon me into submission.

I am sorry traddad that I wasn't more specific.  What you describe makes perfect sense and that's how it often goes with a pwBPD in regular (not BPD specified) therapy... .

What I thought was if you by yourself could talk to a therapist who is informed about BPD and who could help you navigate the very complicated waters you are trying to sail and support you in your struggle. It is a heavy burden you are carrying... .

Of course, we can try to give you some input here as well, and we will be happy to. Keep us posted. But I also thought that a trained professional might be very helpful in your situation... .

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[alembic]

What I thought was if you by yourself could talk to a therapist who is informed about BPD and who could help you navigate the very complicated waters you are trying to sail and support you in your struggle. It is a heavy burden you are carrying... .

Of course, we can try to give you some input here as well, and we will be happy to. Keep us posted. But I also thought that a trained professional might be very helpful in your situation... .

Hello again pessim-optimist.

Yeah, finding such a person would be quite helpful to me. Unfortunately, despite several google searches, I have yet to locate someone that seems suitable. The impression I have is that BPD is generally less well known in the UK than the US, and consequently is less diagnosed.  This is one of the reasons, I believe, that my wife has never been diagnosed with it, despite being involved with mental health professionals for nearly a decade.  The structure of the healthcare services in the UK also makes it very difficult to access resources for something like this.

But if someone knows a good resource for this sort of thing, I would be very interested in knowing about it.

[alembic]

Where do you live in UK. I am in UK and trying to start a teaching group in London, let me know if you are interested.

I'm not that far from London, although I'm not sure how easy it would be to attend a group on a regular basis.

The main difficulty at the moment is finding some help for all the family members who actually understand what is happening - the dynamics within the family.  We have some support from the local authority, but they are treating it as purely a behavioural problem with the kids, which I don't think it is.  There are mental health aspects which at the moment are essentially being ignored, because of lack of resources.  I suspect that concentrating on the behavioural aspects will have limited success, because that doesn't address any of the mental health aspects.  Ideally, we would need someone who understands both, but they seem very hard to come by in the UK, where all of these things are segmented between different agencies.

 

[Reality]

traddad,

Anthony Bateman and Peter Fonaghy are both Brisish and very well known in the BPD world.  They devised a therapy called Mentalization, which is well described in Valerie Porr's book, Overcoming Borderline Personality Disorder. 

I attended a conference in Boston sponsored by the NEA-BPD this spring and Anthony Bateman was a presenter.  He works closely with the NEA-BPD and the Harvard people, as well.  I would think he might be able to help you.

The services here in Canada are also segmented and dx are hard to come by, probably because there is little therapy available or if there is, no-one seems able to find it. 

I agree it is a mental health issue and a serious one, at that.

I hope you are able to access comprehensive help.

Reality

[Vivgood]

I think this is a type of red herring- you are focusing on a minute side effect because focusing on the real, and sizable, issue is too overwhelming. This isn't about your son at all. This is about having an untreated BPD as a parent. Your kids are going to ALWAYS act out in negative ways and have negative issues, as long as they have no options but to live FT with their untreated mentally ill mother.  Read posts from the Parenting After... . board and the BPD parents board. Kids with BPD moms CAN do okay... . if they have another, safe, home to go to and if they and their non-parent get professional help.

What is the likelihood that your wife will commit to intensive, multi-modal treatment for her severe mental illness?

What is the likelihood that you (and your 3 young children) will stay trapped in a relationship with a profoundly dysfunctional person?

Those are the questions you really need to think about.

I believe BPD is treatable and curable, but I also believe the BPDs are categorically incapable of being "good" parents (without substantial long-term tx). My personal experiences convince me of the formare, and the these boards offer very convincing evidence for the latter. Please think about this carefully and objectively.


vivgood

[pessim-optimist]

Does anyone know where Dr. Blaise Aguirre is from? He has an interesting accent (sort of British, I thought?)

Here's a video about BPD in Adolescense: Early Detection and Intervention

www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4KjxxPp3Ls&feature=player_detailpage

[alembic]

Your kids are going to ALWAYS act out in negative ways and have negative issues, as long as they have no options but to live FT with their untreated mentally ill mother.  Read posts from the Parenting After... . board and the BPD parents board. Kids with BPD moms CAN do okay... . if they have another, safe, home to go to and if they and their non-parent get professional help.

Hello Vivgood, many thanks for your post.

Yes, I have to say that to a large extent I agree with you. However... . there are rather a lot of practical complications.

There is very little chance, in my view, of my wife ever agreeing to any kind of treatment for BPD. I think the black death would be a preferable diagnosis for her - her whole worldview is built around the idea of everyone else being at fault - me, her kids, her parents, and having to own a BPD diagnosis would cause that world to come crashing down, so she continues to deny it, tooth and nail.  I can't envisage any circumstances that this will change.

I agree that this is having a big effect on our children, and you would expect there to be consequences for them.  However my wife refuses to acknowledge these effects - in fact, she twists any and all problems in our family such that they sound as though I am the cause of them, and she happily depicts that situation to the state authorities whenever she has the opportunity.   She has no qualms about exaggerating, twisting facts, omitting key information, misrepresenting situations in order to try to escape the shame of what is happening to our children.   I have no idea how the state authorities currently regard her testimony - but at the end of the day, it is my word against hers.  They are speaking to our children too, though, so maybe the truth will come out - who knows at this stage.

One of the reasons why my wife is so keen to blacken my name, apart from escaping the shame herself, is that she is keen to avoid precisely the scenario you are alluding to - where we live separately, and the kids can choose to some extent who to spend their time with.  Because she knows by now that they will opt for me. She hopes to destroy my credibility with the state authorities, so that if ever a split arises, she will automatically be the one awarded custody of the children.  As I said earlier, awareness of BPD is not terribly great here, but awareness of domestic abuse certainly is, and if claiming that will let her hang on to the children, that is certainly an avenue she will pursue. By attributing the kids current condition to my poor parenting skills, she hopes to make herself the only conduit through which I can keep contact up with the kids in future.

So it's not quite as simple as just deciding to leave and set up an alternate, 'healthy' home for the kids, much as I would like to do so.   If I try and do that, it may backfire, particularly if the state authorities buy my wife's version of events, and I may end up spending much less time with them than I do now.  That would definitely not be good for their mental health. So it's all a bit of a gamble, really.

The whole process would be much easier if the state authorities were well versed in BPD, and knew how to factor that into things, but at the moment, that isn't proving to be the case.  They just seem horribly confused by the fact that my wife and I tell different stories about what has happened, and keep telling us to get marriage counselling.  But as I said above - that hasn't worked in the past, and finding a BPD specific counsellor has proved difficult so far.

So at the moment, it's really a case of triage.  I'm trying to keep my kids as healthy and happy as possible - which isn't easy under the circumstances, and keep trying to represent my point of view to the state authorities, whilst dodging all the curveballs my wife is throwing.

I'm open to suggestions about how I might do things differently, but at the moment it is very, very difficult, and it has hard to know who to turn to.

[Vivgood]

It sounds like you have an excellent grasp of what is happening traddad. Unfortunately. :'(

My very best advice to you is to get on the Law/Legal board here: there are some very savvy people there who have been in precisely your shoes and have managed to come out the other side with their own, and their kids', sanity intact.

I think one point is that there is a big difference, from the child's POV, between living with (sane)dad and BPD mom FT and thus having NO safe place to go... . and living with BPD mom but being able to go somewhere safe on a reliable schedule. From YOUR pov, it may seem better to at least see them every day even if it is under poor circumstances, but from THEIR pov, the simple fact there there is safe place, safe person, safe home, dude, thats HUGE.  The constant exposure to her maltreatment of you isn't a nonissue either. It hurts them. (altho I understand some legal entities place less emphasis on this).

I'm unsure about the UK, I know in the US, while female-on-male DV isn't given the weight of the opposite, the unvarnished statistics say that when men do actively pursue custody, they are more likely to get it (relative to women). the people on the legal board know specifics of how that works, and also ways to move from 50/50 toward dad-majority even when the default is 50/50. realistically, worse case scenario is probably EOW "visitation"... . and thats way better than being stuck with BPM FT. And then, as is so often the case, time in practice moves toward 40/60, 20/80, because the BPD blows herself up with her crazy as the kids become more independent, and/or the kids themselves start voting with their feet.

Seriously. I don't think your kids are the problem. I don't think you are anywhere near having to worry about THIS board. I think the info you really need is on the Parenting After... . and Legal/Law boards.


Good luck traddad!


vivgood

[vivekananda]

Hi traddad,

You are in a difficult situation, I am very sorry it is so hard for you.

Normally the advice I would give on the boards is for you, the non BPD, to learn how to change yourself so as to deal with your relationship. I think however that while that might be helpful for you, I also think you have much more to consider. In the meantime:

Have you explored this resource?

mind.org,uk

the link has a list of contacts that you could investigate.

This is a link to a Carer's Helpline:

carers direct helpline

You could ring them and see if there are any supports in your area.

In the meantime, I think it might be helpful for you to buy this book on boundary setting - it doesn't mention BPD I believe: "Boundaries - when to say yes, how to say no to take control of your life" by H. Cloud and J. Townsend. And this one on validation by the Lundbergs: "I don't have to make everything all better." which doesn't mention BPD either. You could give the boundary one to you wife to read while you read the other, and then swap. See if that helps either of you... . I am sure you will personally find it helpful and it would give your wife advice that would be difficult to deny. That may help you get on the same page.

Is your family a support to you in this?

Cheers,

Vivek    

just found this too:

National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence - BPD

at the end it refers to PALS your local patient and advice service and an advocacy service for complaints. In Aust it is not considered appropriate to diagnose someone under 11 with BPD but that doesn't mean they can't diagnose symptoms eg anxiety etc, and offer treatment for that.

If you can afford to go outside the NHS, you might be able to get treatment for your son.

   

[alembic]

just found this too:

National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence - BPD

at the end it refers to PALS your local patient and advice service and an advocacy service for complaints. In Aust it is not considered appropriate to diagnose someone under 11 with BPD but that doesn't mean they can't diagnose symptoms eg anxiety etc, and offer treatment for that.

If you can afford to go outside the NHS, you might be able to get treatment for your son.

   

Hello vivenkananda,

Thanks for you helpful post. I will investigate the resources you have highlighted.

Our son has already seen the Child Adolescent Mental Health Services (CAMHS), which is the juvenile mental health part of the NHS.  There are big problems there in terms of resources. Before they even met him, they phoned up, and essentially tried to dissuade us from taking things any further, because they are swamped.  All they really wanted to know was whether he was likely to try and kill himself.  When I said I thought not, they tried to persuade me that he didn't need to see them.  In the end,  he did see them, but they decided not to take things any further.

As it explains in the NICE leaflet you highlighted, in the UK they don't diagnose with BPD below 18 years of age.  As you rightly point out, just because they can't give the BPD label, that doesn't mean they can't support him in other ways.  But at the moment they seem totally swamped, and unable to do so. 

The nature of his problems means that the way he behaves can change quite rapidly, which makes diagnosis tricky.  On the occasions when he saw CAMHS, he was quite composed, which he often is with strangers and people outside the household, and so naturally they didn't find much wrong with him.  I doubt whether he has full-blown BPD either, but he is suffering considerable emotional distress from the conditions in which he lives, and I would not want to see his condition deteriorate further, to the point where he does develop full-blown BPD.

I would certainly consider treatment outside of the NHS - getting the right treatment is the priority - but again, I haven't found anywhere yet that seems promising, in terms of expertise with BPD and its effects on whole families.

My feeling is that all our son really wants is a calm, sane, fair home life - something most children can take for granted.  But it's not something he gets at home with us.  The atmosphere in our household is perpetually emotionally charged, with huge tantrums occurring over tiny incidents. That kind of behaviour is both wearing and infectious, which is why things are deteriorating in our household.

I have some of the books you mention, and they do help sometimes.  But I think getting some sort of effective therapy for the members of the family would help more, if I could locate some.

[vivekananda]

Hi traddad,

This is I believe the situation with BPD and kids, or at least one perspective. BPD can be seen in brain imagery as a lack of neural pathways between the amygdala and the pre frontal cortex. So, when emotionally aroused, the person doesn't easily access the logic part of the brain, the pre frontal cortex. Because in adolescence, this is when there is a lot of brain development (I believe frequently used neuronals are reinforced and less used are culled), there is less keenness to therapeutically intervene when these concerns are able to be remedied in earlier childhood... . and BPD may not be developed. Hence a real reluctance to intervene.

I do however appreciate your assessment of the unhealthy environment where learned behaviour will make this a difficult proposition. So, here is some more info for you. I hope you find it helpful.

In Aust there was recently published a book on clinical guidelines, which provides a decent summary of everything you needed to know. Including the most successful forms of treatment. They only based the assessments where there was sufficient meta analysis available. This is course means that the treatment assessed does not take into account the special needs of children. But there is helpful info there. There is also one available for UK, but it is older. You can download the Aust guidelines for free from this site. I recommend it.

Clinical Practice Guideline for the Management of Borderline Personality Disorder (2012)

One form of treatment that is not covered in the book, is neurofeedback, because the research data available doesn't involve BPD. But it has been shown to be successful with ADHD, depression, anxiety, bi-polar, Aspergers/autism... . and goodness knows what else. Two parents on this site have used/are using with their children: one was a 14 year old girl, the other a 35 year old man (forgive me if I got it wrong). Both parents are most enthusiastic about the results.

Neurofeedback, involves changing how a person uses their brain and it looks like great fun to me. This is how it would go I believe. A person's brain is 'read' and a picture of how it works is then compared with a 'normal' brain. The differences are then identified. This is of course done in conjunction with interviews and assessments with the people involved. There are software programs - different neurologists use different ones. One of them involves the patient linked to a computer where a software program involving playing a game operates. As the patient plays the game, they are creating and strengthening the relevant neural pathways. You can google 'neurofeedback' on UTube and see a few different versions of how it's done.

But this looks like a good place for you to begin your investigation, a high profile London practice that works with kids:

www.brainworksneurotherapy.com/neurofeedback-kids

Keep on posting traddad and if you learn anything, don't forget to share it with us 

cheers,

Vivek  

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[alembic]

Thanks for the links Vivenkanda

Looking at the links people have provided, it seems there might be some possibilities in the private sector. It seems Mentalization therapy for families may be available in some places in London, like the Anna Ford clinic, that I haven't come across before. I will investigate those, so thanks to those people who pointed me in the right direction.

I looked on Youtube, and found a video of Bateman demonstrating mentalization therapy, which I found quite interesting. I've read a bit around DBT so far, but one of the aspects of that that I find awkward is the focus on different things being true at the same time - this is quite a hard sell for children.  From what I saw of mentalization, it seems not to involve those aspects to the same extent, which I regard as a good thing.

Vivgood, you mentioned to consider whether the kids would be better off with a 'safe' environment, even if it isn't all the time. I need to think about that some more.  I think I will head over to the legal board, and try and find out what my options are. Thanks for suggesting this.

[Vivgood]

 

You might also find it helpful to look at some of the posts by adult kids of moms with BPD on the Dealing with Relatives board. This question comes up regularly, and almost to a person, these adult kids say they would have been better off if the non-parent had left the BPD-parent. The damage done to a child with a BPD parent is far-ranging and long-lasting, and can be very severe.


vivgood

[vivekananda]

Hi Vivgood/alembic,

My mum is uBPD, ours was an abusive, volatile, hostile household. I wanted mum to leave and take me with her. BPD creates complex family dynamics and it is not so easy to make black and white statements about them.

cheers,

Vivek    

[pessim-optimist]

Vivgood, you mentioned to consider whether the kids would be better off with a 'safe' environment, even if it isn't all the time. I need to think about that some more.  I think I will head over to the legal board, and try and find out what my options are. Thanks for suggesting this.

Hi alembic,

the legal board might be a very good idea.

I also have a couple of book suggestions for you, as you are thinking about the future for your kids and your options. I do not suggest either way (staying or separating), that will be something for you to consider and work through.

1. Stop Walking on Eggshells WORKBOOK - I really liked the workbook. You can go through some exercises to clarify the issues of your situation for yourself, what you want do/not do about it. (Disclaimer - it seemed to me that the workbook is subtly suggesting that if your pwBPD is not likely to change/go to therapy etc., then why would you stay? My answer to that would be, it is entirely up to you, what you reasons for staying or separating are. But it is good to clarify for oneself "Am I willing to stay if nothing changes?", if not: "What needs to change for me to want to stay?", and "Is my partner going to cooperate? And if not, is it possible to accomplish the changes by changes on my side only (boundaries, validation etc.)?"

2.Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder, by Randi Kreger & Bill Eddy

This book is a wonderful resource to get either way - to know what is likely to happen and how to protect yourself (and your children) in case of separation. Even if you decide to stay, it's good to be informed in this area, in case down the road your wife decided to leave. Of course I would not recommend having the book somewhere where your wife might find it - that in itself might sabotage your r/s and become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

All the best to you, alembic.

[heronbird]

We started at CAMHS and they were really useless, discharged my dd after a year, even though she was still self harming, eventually we left them and had to make do with nothing.

When dd was 16 she had a serious crisis and ended up at the Maudsley, brilliant hospital. They diagnosed BPD there and we had to go back to camhs, this time it was a new psychiatrist and she was so good.

If you are unhappy with your camhs, you can always go to another one, but at the end of the day, they can not wave a magic wand and because of the nature of BPD my dd couldnt help her ways.

Still is the case.

Yes, I understand that you can not attend a course just yet.

You can phone Rethink, see if you have a local support group, mine is once a month and they really supported me and guided me to the right places for help and gave me such useful advice.

They offered me a course called Positive psychology. They told me about a two day course in Oxford to learn all about BPD.

My course will be different in that I am teaching people how to talk to people with BPD to reduce conflict etc

[alembic]

We started at CAMHS and they were really useless, discharged my dd after a year, even though she was still self harming, eventually we left them and had to make do with nothing.

When dd was 16 she had a serious crisis and ended up at the Maudsley, brilliant hospital. They diagnosed BPD there and we had to go back to camhs, this time it was a new psychiatrist and she was so good.

If you are unhappy with your camhs, you can always go to another one, but at the end of the day, they can not wave a magic wand and because of the nature of BPD my dd couldnt help her ways.

Still is the case.

Yes, I understand that you can not attend a course just yet.

You can phone Rethink, see if you have a local support group, mine is once a month and they really supported me and guided me to the right places for help and gave me such useful advice.

They offered me a course called Positive psychology. They told me about a two day course in Oxford to learn all about BPD.

My course will be different in that I am teaching people how to talk to people with BPD to reduce conflict etc

Hello heronbird,

Thanks for the useful info.

After your daughter went to the Maudsley, then back to CAMHS, did CAMHS respect the diagnosis?  If so, that might offer hope, because there seems to be better understanding of BPD in the private sector.  We could maybe get a diagnosis of BPD in the private sector, and then use that to get treatment from the state services?

I know that people worry about 'labelling' and so on, but I actually think an actual diagnosis of BPD would really help our family.  At the moment my wife is in complete denial, and thinks everything that goes on in our family is totally normal, basically because that's how her family behaved as she grew up. 

If one of our children was actually diagnosed with BPD, I think that would give my wife pause for thought that maybe everything wasn't OK, and that eight year olds threatening themselves with knives isn't really normal.  There's then a small possibility she might then see the similarity between their and her behaviour, although sadly it's actually much more probable that she would blame the BPD on me, and say it had only developed because of how I had treated them, or some such thing.

Obviously, I'm not looking for a magic wand solution, given the nature of what seems to be the problem. But at the moment BPD is the elephant in the room - all sorts of services are circling around our family trying, in their own way, to help, but without the right knowledge, training and insight to actually see what is going on. It would be nice to address the elephant for a change, because then efforts could be focused on dealing with the actual problem.

[mamachelle]

Hi alembic,

I am just popping in to this discussion. It is incredibly informative to read and I am glad you are getting closer to getting some help.

As a parent with younger kids that are suffering from mental illness I have learned that Anxiety, ADHD, and Asperger's and other 'safer' diagnoses are more common for 8 year olds. Some kids do get the juvenille Bipolar diagnosis.  Even that is controversial though if you look into it- many parents are dealing with the behaviors.

I just want to warn you against focusing on the BPD diagnosis for your 8 year old. It would be very unusual for one that young to get that diagnosis.

One avenue is to go through a neuropsychologist to do full testing. One drawback is that the parental rating scales which are a piece of this will be unbalanced if your W decides to normalize the behavior. Also sometimes they focus on what is happening at the school as well (ie. does this behavior present across settings?)

However since this stuff  you describe is not normal--and other agencies know about it-- then there is a better chance of getting some kind of diagnosis that you can go forward with.

mamachelle

[alembic]

As a parent with younger kids that are suffering from mental illness I have learned that Anxiety, ADHD, and Asperger's and other 'safer' diagnoses are more common for 8 year olds. Some kids do get the juvenille Bipolar diagnosis.  Even that is controversial though if you look into it- many parents are dealing with the behaviors.

I just want to warn you against focusing on the BPD diagnosis for your 8 year old. It would be very unusual for one that young to get that diagnosis.

Hello again mamachelle,

Thanks again for your input.

Yes, I understand that a diagnosis of BPD would be difficult for one so young.  There are a lot of striking similarities, though:

She says herself that she has a fear of abandonment, by her friends at school, and her parents

She says that a black hole comes and swallows her when something bad happens to her.

She's threatened to harm herself with a knife

She has huge tantrums and rages completely inappropriate to the circumstances, where she threatens violent actions against others and her surroundings, yet is good as gold otherwise, and behaves impeccably at school.

She has 'split' (black and white) views of significant others in her life, like her Mum and Dad

She distorts whatever is said to her when she is upset, and plays the victim.

I've described all of this to the state authorities, but they're currently regarding it as a behavioural problem, rather than a mental health problem. CAMHS, which are the adolescent mental health authority, seem swamped, and only want to deal with cases where the child is at serious risk of killing themselves.

No-one would be happier than me if this doesn't turn out to be BPD, and is sorted out by better boundaries at home, or such like. But I fear she will continue like this, and it will only get worse when she hits puberty, and starts to think about relationships. I dread to think how she will handle the emotional pain of rejection, which will inevitably occur at some point.

[mamachelle]

Do go the private route as discussed and I am just saying that the hope should be for a diagnosis of something that would lead to a treatment of her behaviors. Her raging and tantrums sound beyond the scope of normal to me.

You can't be sure of a BPD diagnosis and therapists and doctors do not like parents to diagnose their children for good reason.

My SS10 has been called "emerging bipolar" and "emerging psychotic" unofficially by the psychiatrist who also said something like he could be heading for DID which is like BPD squared... . and he is now on 2 mood stabilizers Lamictal and Abilify. The neuro psych has officially diagnosed him as PDD-NOS AKA asperger's or autism spectrum. He has many BPD traits like his Biomom who has BPD and is also BiPolar. No one will diagnose him as BPD here in the US though he meets the criteria because he is too young to have a personality disorder as they say his personality is still forming.

He is doing better since he has more support and the meds help for sure.

Your family needs more support- it's just making sure it is the right kind of support.

You are doing the right things. Keep pushing forward.