I finally did something that its reasonable for him to be mad about...

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

4Now says... . "We are not super humans and we really can't take it all on ourselves.  I have noticed that when I don't hold it all together, that's when it all goes south.  And it goes there  quickly.  I just think this is another form of walking on egg shells.  We need to be able to make mistakes, express opinions and emotions because we are HUMAN."

That is SOO true! I can't speak for others by as the spouse of someone like this you are simply not allowed to make mistakes.  You have to be "on" all the time.  You have to be calm.  You have to be aware of everything going on around you to try and eliminate triggers.  I can't really discipline my kids (12-yo son in particular) when H is around because he butts in and takes over and it gets ugly really fast.  You can't confide in your spouse about your frustrations and fears.  I have really stopped talking to my H about pretty much everything.  Sometimes the most innocent conversation can turn into him basically yelling at me and telling me I'm stupid.

Friday night, in fact, H had called me while I was at work and asked if I wanted to go out for dinner with him and the kids.  Great, sounds like fun... . read, H is in a good mood so it will be a good evening.  Got home and daughter needed a ride to her friend's house and I was invited in for a quick margarita.  Went in, texted H to tell him I would be there for about 15 minutes (he was getting ready to go, taking shower, etc).  I lost track of time because I was talking and I ended up being there for about 45 minutes.  No calls or texts from him telling me he was ready to go, so I figured it wasn't a huge deal.  Wrong.  I get home and he is pissed.  No more dinner out because I took too long.  Pretty soon everything on the kitchen counter was on the floor, in addition to several things out of the freezer.  I did my best to stay calm and I apologized at least 20 times and said we could still go.  No, we couldn't still go because now he was mad and didn't want to be anywhere near me.  It was escalating quickly so I told the boys to go to the car because I needed to get out of there.  As we were backing out of the garage, H went right behind the car to stop me, opened my car door and started screaming at me.  He thought I was taking the boys out to dinner... . I told him I was leaving because I knew things were going nowhere good and I didn't want them to have to witness it yet again.  I then went inside and we proceeded to have a screaming match because I lost control.  I wish I would have just left and not allow myself to engage in the argument but it is what it is.

I should add that my youngest son called me and asked me when I was coming home.  Although he didn't say it, he knew H was getting mad.  When I left with the boys, my 12 yo son said that H got mad and called my little one a f**ing helicopter (to his face) for calling me.  H told me he didn't want to "nag" me and that's why he didn't call or text.  Imagine an 8 yo being called that by his father.  Great example that man is... .

He moped around all weekend.  I didn't know if he was still mad at me or if he was mad at himself - on any given day these are the two options, so I'm afraid to engage him in a conversation about it for fear that I will be dumped on again.  It is such an unhealthy relationship and it makes me so sad.  What's even more sad is that I don't even know what a healthy relationship even FEELS like. 

Allibaba... . I so completely understand what you are going through with him acting out and throwing things, etc.  Your H's behavior is very concerning.  You mentioned going on vacation without him... . not sure about you but that is something I have always wanted to do but the fear of even ASKING to take a vacation with just the kids and not him is anxiety provoking.  He can't stand to be left out, yet when he goes with us he is a jackass the entire time, unable to have any fun and making the rest of us miserable.  I can understand your indecision about what to do with the whole vacation thing.  I also understand your concerns about custody.  I have wanted to leave my H so many times over the years but I didn't, because I didn't want them to spend any time alone with him during visitation times, even though I would fight very hard for weekend only visitations.  Now my kids are old enough that I don't worry about them as much.  If things were to get too bad I know they would tell me and I could deal with it from there.

I am scared for your safety, yet I'm sure you feel "safe" because he has never harmed you, you've seen his rants and in some strange way know the cycle.  You hang on for the good/calm days, knowing they will certainly come.  I will tell you that H and I have had some pretty bad fights.  Mostly screaming and swearing at each other but he has physically pushed me a few times (and knocked me down).  I have responded each time with a physical response to him... . probably not the best idea, but I refuse to let him know that I am intimidated by him.  During our fight on Friday night when I told him I was sick of him throwing things around and breaking things, he screamed back "this is my getting rid of my aggression... . do you want me to beat on YOU, because I am not going to do that!"  I responded that him throwing things around and breaking things is scary and every time he does something like that I know that "I" am the thing he is destroying, whatever it is.  I told him it doesn't work for me, that's not how I'm wired, and I can't deal with it.

I think 123Phoebe said it well... . What is your biggest fear?  Identify that, and you will start getting somewhere.

Take care... .

[nevaeh]

4Now says... . "We are not super humans and we really can't take it all on ourselves.  I have noticed that when I don't hold it all together, that's when it all goes south.  And it goes there  quickly.  I just think this is another form of walking on egg shells.  We need to be able to make mistakes, express opinions and emotions because we are HUMAN."

That is SOO true! I can't speak for others by as the spouse of someone like this you are simply not allowed to make mistakes.  You have to be "on" all the time.  You have to be calm.  You have to be aware of everything going on around you to try and eliminate triggers.  I can't really discipline my kids (12-yo son in particular) when H is around because he butts in and takes over and it gets ugly really fast.  You can't confide in your spouse about your frustrations and fears.  I have really stopped talking to my H about pretty much everything.  Sometimes the most innocent conversation can turn into him basically yelling at me and telling me I'm stupid.

Friday night, in fact, H had called me while I was at work and asked if I wanted to go out for dinner with him and the kids.  Great, sounds like fun... . read, H is in a good mood so it will be a good evening.  Got home and daughter needed a ride to her friend's house and I was invited in for a quick margarita.  Went in, texted H to tell him I would be there for about 15 minutes (he was getting ready to go, taking shower, etc).  I lost track of time because I was talking and I ended up being there for about 45 minutes.  No calls or texts from him telling me he was ready to go, so I figured it wasn't a huge deal.  Wrong.  I get home and he is pissed.  No more dinner out because I took too long.  Pretty soon everything on the kitchen counter was on the floor, in addition to several things out of the freezer.  I did my best to stay calm and I apologized at least 20 times and said we could still go.  No, we couldn't still go because now he was mad and didn't want to be anywhere near me.  It was escalating quickly so I told the boys to go to the car because I needed to get out of there.  As we were backing out of the garage, H went right behind the car to stop me, opened my car door and started screaming at me.  He thought I was taking the boys out to dinner... . I told him I was leaving because I knew things were going nowhere good and I didn't want them to have to witness it yet again.  I then went inside and we proceeded to have a screaming match because I lost control.  I wish I would have just left and not allow myself to engage in the argument but it is what it is.

I should add that my youngest son called me and asked me when I was coming home.  Although he didn't say it, he knew H was getting mad.  When I left with the boys, my 12 yo son said that H got mad and called my little one a f**ing helicopter (to his face) for calling me.  H told me he didn't want to "nag" me and that's why he didn't call or text.  Imagine an 8 yo being called that by his father.  Great example that man is... .

He moped around all weekend.  I didn't know if he was still mad at me or if he was mad at himself - on any given day these are the two options, so I'm afraid to engage him in a conversation about it for fear that I will be dumped on again.  It is such an unhealthy relationship and it makes me so sad.  What's even more sad is that I don't even know what a healthy relationship even FEELS like. 

Allibaba... . I so completely understand what you are going through with him acting out and throwing things, etc.  Your H's behavior is very concerning.  You mentioned going on vacation without him... . not sure about you but that is something I have always wanted to do but the fear of even ASKING to take a vacation with just the kids and not him is anxiety provoking.  He can't stand to be left out, yet when he goes with us he is a jackass the entire time, unable to have any fun and making the rest of us miserable.  I can understand your indecision about what to do with the whole vacation thing.  I also understand your concerns about custody.  I have wanted to leave my H so many times over the years but I didn't, because I didn't want them to spend any time alone with him during visitation times, even though I would fight very hard for weekend only visitations.  Now my kids are old enough that I don't worry about them as much.  If things were to get too bad I know they would tell me and I could deal with it from there.

I am scared for your safety, yet I'm sure you feel "safe" because he has never harmed you, you've seen his rants and in some strange way know the cycle.  You hang on for the good/calm days, knowing they will certainly come.  I will tell you that H and I have had some pretty bad fights.  Mostly screaming and swearing at each other but he has physically pushed me a few times (and knocked me down).  I have responded each time with a physical response to him... . probably not the best idea, but I refuse to let him know that I am intimidated by him.  During our fight on Friday night when I told him I was sick of him throwing things around and breaking things, he screamed back "this is my getting rid of my aggression... . do you want me to beat on YOU, because I am not going to do that!"  I responded that him throwing things around and breaking things is scary and every time he does something like that I know that "I" am the thing he is destroying, whatever it is.  I told him it doesn't work for me, that's not how I'm wired, and I can't deal with it.

I think 123Phoebe said it well... . What is your biggest fear?  Identify that, and you will start getting somewhere.

Take care... .

[eternity75]

Hi Allibaba,

I am sorry to hear you are having such a difficult time with all of this. You said there is no reason to stay other than your messed up loyalty to him. I would like to offer the suggestion that you make a shift in that loyalty from your husband to yourself and your son. I am really not one to talk... . because if you read my posts on this board (I'm a newbie here) you will see I have my own messed up loyalty that I am trying to come to terms with and work through. But what I can offer you is the reason this messed up loyalty came to be in the first place and that is because I spent 25 years growing up with a father who was BPD.

My father raged on our family constantly. We never knew what would set him off. He began beating my brother at the age of 2. I got the least of his abuse because I learned to keep my mouth shut, hide out, and do what he wanted. But I lived in terror as a child. I used to wish my dad was dead. I used to wish to be anywhere but there. I hated when the switch flipped and he got that look in his eyes that I can only explain as the devil.

I remember at the age of 10, my mom asked me to put my laundry away that she had folded and left in a basket in my room. I told her I'd do it later. My dad flipped. He stormed into my room, screaming at me about "disrespecting" my mom. He towered over me in a rage and I cowered back on my bed. The closer he got to me the more terrified I became, and having seen him beat my mom and brother so many times, I was scared I was next. Instinctively, I leaned back on my bed, brought my feet up, and kicked him as hard as I could in the stomach. I was trying to defend myself from what I knew was coming and at that time, never having been in a physical altercation with anyone, I believed that kick to the stomach would be enough to shock him, send him flying backwards, get him a few feet away from me so that I could escape. I was wrong. He backhanded me as hard as he could. I was knocked out. I could hear the ringing in my ears, I could see only black. When I came to he was still standing over me raging... . I scooted backwards across my bed and cowering in the corner on my floor, crying and begging him to leave me alone. I was cornered. He came around the bed and picked me up by my hair and I started screaming. My mom came in the room and started screaming at him to let me go. He dropped me and turned on her, which bought me enough time to jump over the bed and run. We lived in the country. I ran out of the house and down the road... . I looked back and saw him coming out of the house and getting into his car. The bushes at the side of the road obscured me enough that he didn't see me. But I was certain he was coming to kill me. I had nowhere to hide. So I went in the ditch and laid flat on the ground and prayed he would drive by without seeing me. He did. It was hours before I came home again.

I tell you this story because this is what it was like growing up in the home of a BPD parent. If you can imagine the fear you have as an adult when the BPD flies into a rage, imagine being a helpless child and magnify that fear by 1000.

As much as I have tried to move on with my life, so much of my life has been tainted and destroyed by growing up in that environment. My mom now has PTSD and is paranoid everyone is out to get her. My brother by all appearances has a normal life... . but he can be very cold, calculating, and crule when he feels like it. And me, I am 37 and have never had a normal loving relationship. Every boyfriend I have had has either been full on BPD or had BPD or NPD tendencies. I have zero self-esteem, zero self-confidence, and I wonder if I will spend my life alone forever.

If you a struggling with leaving for your own sake, please consider for your son, what his future may be like. It's not a pretty picture. And right now, it's not his choice... . it's yours.

I hope this will help you find the strength and will to leave. As I said, I am not one to talk, because I am in a fairly new relationship and I have not left yet. But I haven't been able to believe I deserve anything better... . also a result of my BPD father.

Love & light, Eternity

[nevaeh]

Wow... . Eternity... . that story is chilling.  I am so sorry that you had to live that way and really can only imagine what that feels like.  My dad was very calm and loving so I just don't understand it, nor do I have patience for it.

I know what you mean about the look of the devil.  When my husband is in a rage, his eyes are not his own.  They are dark and they look right through you.  I worry most about my kids and how their dad is affecting them.  My 12 year old has been affected the most, and he is the one who is most like his dad.  I know that my father-in-law raged as well (he is now passed away) and I have a feeling that my husband bore the brunt of it in their house as well.

There are a lot of things that we, as grown-ups, can put up with.  It's easier for us to classify things and not take them personally.  But, to a child, all bets are off.  I know that my son is scared of his dad, although I don't think our situation is as severe (yet/hopefully never) as yours was. 

Your post reminds me that when I start feeling sorry for my husband I should really think about what my kids have been through and what is best for them.  My heart is breaking for you, that you are still dealing with your father's horrible ways and how he has impacted you for life. 

May I ask how your relationship was with your mom?  I am just curious if there is anything she did or didn't do that made the situation worse or better.  Also wondering how your relationship is with her now.  I used to try and make excuses for H's behavior to the kids, but I don't anymore.  They have formed their own opinions of him and I don't try to deprive them of those opinions by making his behavior somehow OK.  The last step of me doing that is leaving him, and I am working on that. 

I think I said it earlier on this thread but part of the reason I have stayed as long as I have (married 18 years, kids are 15, 12 and 8) is that I never wanted to risk putting the kids in his care without me around and without them being old enough to tell me if there were problems.  I think we are at the point where I could feel comfortable about him having them for limited visitation (weekends, etc). 

Thanks for sharing your story.  It is yet another wake up call for me... .

[eternity75]

Hi nevaeh,

That story is only one of 100's I have from my childhood, all bad. It doesn't even begin to describe the terror our family endured. And even if a BPD individual is not physically abusive, their rage still intimidates and instills fear that destroys us inside. As I said, I got the least of my father's abuse, physically, but the emotional damage has scarred me for life.

As for my relationship with my mom. I have always loved and respected her. She was married at a time when women's shelters did not yet exist and the church we were in encouraged her to make it work. She had few options, and my father had told her "If you try to leave me, your kids will be visiting you at your grave". She stayed for that very reason. But for anyone experiencing abuse nowadays when there are more options to get help, I would encourage them to leave. Unfortunately, the PTSD my mom experienced after 25 years of his abuse has never really gone away. And the past few years she suffered two mini-strokes, which affected the logical thinking part of her brain. As a result she first thought my uncle (her brother) was out to get her. Then she thought my brother was the enemy, trying to steal her life savings, spying on her, recording and tracking her. My mom has always been like my best friend... . she understands me and I understand her. However 2 days ago, I received an email from her telling me she now realizes I have been in on this act to destroy her all along, and my brother and I are in on trying to steal her money together. Yes, this is an age related dementia due to the strokes (she is only 63 yrs old) but I blame my father for the years of stress and abuse she had to endure, and now because of his actions, his abuse, his threats, even though she is now out of that situation and has been for nearly 10 years, she is living it every day in her mind and there is little left of her quality of life because of this.

I hope you are able to find the strength to leave. I wonder how different my life would be today if my mom would have left. My firm belief is that the younger you can take them out of that environment, the better. You say your son already shows traits of your husband... . that is so sad. I agree with the difficulty in having the kids in his care when you're not around. I'm not sure how you get around that but I think professional involvement of some kind would be helpful in advance so maybe they can also help you in protecting your kids. It's so unfortunate that these situations have to be so complicated in that way.

I wish you the best.

[Validation78]

Hi Alli!

Sorry I have not been able to participate in this conversation for several days. Wow, from the looks of it, things have gotten to a real boiling point. I'm glad you could see the points I raised at the beginning of the discussion. As you know, on the staying board, and the undecided board, our goal is to encourage each other to learn all that we can about BPD, the tools to improve communication, and to acknowledge our parts in the dysfunctional dance. That includes Radical Acceptance of BPD as a mental illness, and that if anything is going to change in our relationships, and our partners are not getting help, we must take on the roles as emotional leaders if we are to remain in the relationship. Let me say, I understand, as well as everyone else here,  the situations we are all in (myself in the past), and have lived many of same scenarios. It is an unfortunate fact, however, without accepting the facts, and adopting the communication tools, and yes doing all the work as unfair as that is! As UFN reminds us over and over, nothing changes without change. We have choices, make changes ourselves, whatever they may be, or expect things to remain the same.

I'm no Pollyanna! I spent 4 years figuring out what was wrong, learning the tools, and coming to the conclusion that a marriage to a pwBPD was not for me. That doesn't mean it isn't for you Alli. There are ways for you to make it better, if that's your choice, and that's what we're here for. To help you make changes in yourself, to encourage you to make decisions for yourself while keeping safe, and healthy, both you and your child. If you stay, you will have to accept the burden of emotional leadership. It's a tough choice, and I think Phoebe asks a good question, without FOG, what does your relationship consist of?

What I'm saying does not minimize the BPD behaviors exhibited by your H. I think, as the others do, that the rages are terrible, and give me a lot of reasons to be concerned for your safety and the long term good of your son. That being said, the choices are all yours, and if you want to continue to stay, you must work on the tools to make changes. I will share with you some things that my T said, after I asked my H to leave and was making a final decision to stay or not:

Your H is very ill

He will not change, as he is not doing the work to do so

Even if H does the work, it will take years to get better

You will always walk on eggshells in this relationship

This relationship will never be healthy and balanced

She said she could help me work to make things better, that's likely the best you can expect, as we all will do for you here. The rest is up to each of us, and it's a crummy decision either way. However, it is highly personal, and I respect each individual's right, and reason, for the decisions they make in their lives!

You have a lot on your plate Alli. I hope you can step back and take a look at the whole picture objectively. Weigh it all out, hear the stories shared here, and do what your gut tells you to do. In the meantime, stay safe!

Best Wishes,

Val78

[allibaba]

Hi all

Thanks for your support.  We had an incident yesterday which was bad enough that my husband has finally hit rock bottom.  He laid on the floor crying in a ball for almost 2 hrs and recounted his version of his life... . and said he will do whatever it takes to get better.  He's scheduled himself w the doctor and the BPD specialist.

Prayers that this is the end of the insanity.

[Rapt Reader]

Oh, allibaba... .

I truly hope and pray that this is the event that you have been waiting for, and that your husband fully accepts his need for change and participates in some sort of Therapy wholeheartedly with an open mind. If he does that, there is light at the end of the tunnel for both of you (and your son)... .

Only a thought: During his search for Therapy, I know you would be trying to find someone versed in BPD specialties, probably including DBT which is great. My grown son (36) learned those techniques at his Dual Diagnosis Center with a 21-day intensive inpatient stay, and continues with his books and workbooks regarding it. But, what is helping him also is Neurofeedback Therapy sessions; do you have anything like that where you are located? It is a very non-threatening Therapy, fun and easy to participate in, and so helpful I can't even put it into words.

I'm just telling you this so it is in the back of your mind during his (hopefully!) recovery process as a possibility. I don't think my son would be recovering this quickly or thoroughly without this treatment.

  Rapt Reader

[hoping4hope]

Dear Allibaba, I'm glad your here and safe.

When I talk about keeping yourself safe I'm not saying you should or should not leave him permanently, all I mean is that is sounds like you might be in danger because of where your husband's mind is and you should take precaution.  From your statements it is pretty clear he was leading up to one big something!  I'm glad your husband seems to have hit bottom and I'm really glad you are safe.

[GreenMango]

Hi all

Thanks for your support.  We had an incident yesterday which was bad enough that my husband has finally hit rock bottom.  He laid on the floor crying in a ball for almost 2 hrs and recounted his version of his life... . and said he will do whatever it takes to get better.  He's scheduled himself w the doctor and the BPD specialist.

Prayers that this is the end of the insanity.

He needed to hit bottom.  He needs to reach for that help.  Support that and know your boundaries.  Clearly communicated expectations once this emotional meltdown has passed are going to key.

Yes the anniversary incident was insensitive.  Its not the cause of this event though. 

This was one big extinction burst from start to finish.  Zoom out on this situation a bit.

If you want to try here that's okay.  If you don't want to try anymore that's okay too.

If you do want to try being in a constructive mindset will set the tone for you.  Drop the resentment about past holidays and focus on those deal breaker issues.  Give less thought to his reasoning and more to how he is going to handle this.

What I got from reading this was he's expected you to fix his emotions for a long time - its not happening anymore and he can't cope without support.  It's a great opportunity for him to reach for the right kind of support now.

I'm pulling for you either way Allibaba.  This is a lot to go through.  Maybe its time to look into the comprehensive treatment plan for BPD - what dbt treatment entails, the components for patients and families, therapuetic separation (if needed), etc.

Do you have a therapist too?  One familiar with this having a loved one with BPD?  Youre gonna need support through this.

[waverider]

This is an escalating cycle. The dramas get more serious and the corresponding swing in apologies is equal and opposite. But nothing is really changing, it i snot too hard to predict that the acting up could be even worse next time.

You need to break this pattern. That may take a prolonged break until real changes are made. Otherwise this is your safety at stake.

This is not calculated behavior on his part it is predictable consequences of increasing levels of dysregulation. Increasing occurrences feed the fear, feelings of failure and desperation, hence the next one is worse.

He may feel horror today about what has happened, but what about next week, next month when memory of this has faded?

Constant quick fix forgiveness is feeding this.

[4now]

Constant quick fix forgiveness is feeding this.

Waverider,

Could you elaborate?  I posted recently in the undecided board, not trying to hijack this thread, and have a similar situation going on.  It is the familiar leaving scenario.  I feel he will come back around eventually, but I don't want to forgive and forget so quickly.  I want him to get help.

What do you suggest?

Thanks!

[waverider]

pwBPD quickly put behind them yesterdays problems and any consequences arising from them. Of course to a degree we have to accept this and not drag issues out too much. Mainly because there are too many little issues and it can escalate them further, or maintain the rage.

However if you forgive and move on, you may not fully feel things are resolved and it leaves a bit of resentment. This keeps happening and the resentment builds up. To a pwBPD this quick resolution means the whole issue is now done, compartmentalized and dealt with. Promises made to repair the damage are left in that compartment, and in their eyes, so should your hurt over it. Fresh start, the past has now gone and any lessons, or regrets, learn't at the time are left behind.

The core problem has not been fixed. It starts to happen again, you react, its's your fault in their eyes, you are still carrying issues from the past they have put behind them, you are holding the grudge. Blame is projected to you. It escalates and the cycle continues.

Serious issues need longer term consequence which extent longer than the emotional cycles of BPD, so that they are reinforced as baseline boundaries, not just reactionary or band aids. It takes a long time for reality to sink in to the BPD mind

When violence is involved there should be no fix for today. A longer term real fix should be seen to be in place before any re engaging.

[eternity75]

Waverider can you explain "longer term consequences"? Depending on the circumstances, what kind of consequences would be effective?

[eternity75]

Alibaba and Java... . I am so sorry to hear your stories. I witnessed these same types of incidents with my mom and dad as a child. It's terrifying. My concern for you is if these rages escalate to phsyical abuse... . because it seems like that is where they could be heading  Please be careful and keep yourselves and your children safe!