Pension in settlement?

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Hello all,

My STBX husband (diagnosed bipolar and BPD; he does take his meds and is high-functioning) is insisting that I take a lump-sum payout of his federal pension now as part of the settlement. The fact that he keeps telling me this will "give me leverage" and "really help me" is raising major red flags, as he is not trustworthy. 

My L, who worked in pension-related law before he specialized in family law, says absolutely not. My T, on the other hand, advises me to take everything I possibly can now in case his career ends abruptly due to his mental instability, which appears to have increased since I filed.

I would appreciate thoughts from those who've been through pension issues with their BPD/bipolar ex. Thanks.

[Undertow]

Hello all,

My STBX husband (diagnosed bipolar and BPD; he does take his meds and is high-functioning) is insisting that I take a lump-sum payout of his federal pension now as part of the settlement. The fact that he keeps telling me this will "give me leverage" and "really help me" is raising major red flags, as he is not trustworthy. 

My L, who worked in pension-related law before he specialized in family law, says absolutely not. My T, on the other hand, advises me to take everything I possibly can now in case his career ends abruptly due to his mental instability, which appears to have increased since I filed.

I would appreciate thoughts from those who've been through pension issues with their BPD/bipolar ex. Thanks.

[FamilyLaw]

It really depends on what type of pension you're talking about.  Is it a TSP (a federal 401K plan)?  If so you will need a Qualified Domestic Relations Order (QDRO) to roll the assets from the TSP into your own IRA.  If its CSRS (or another form of traditional defined benefit pension), is he vested in the plan?  If he's vested, your portion of the pension will be preserved by a QDRO, even if he loses his job down the line.  If he's not vested, then you should take what you get now.  Listen to your lawyer -- sounds like he knows what he's doing

[ForeverDad]

I think one of the key points here is that getting a QDRO at some point preserves your interest, if any, in his pension.  What happens is that in some way you get your portion of interest in his pension locked in and/or separated from his portion before he can manage to sabotage himself.

However, a QDRO may not be ordered by the court until later in the divorce process.  Once you have filed do you go ahead and notify his employer or pension administrator about the divorce case before you get to the point of finding out what percentage or amount you might get?  I don't know.  All I know is that in my two year divorce case the QDRO was issued after the final decree, over two years after I filed for divorce.

[Undertow]

Thank you.  It's not the TSP, which is clear-cut as to how to handle.  It's his FERS pension.  Whether he's vested is a good question - I would guess so, as he's been working there for more than 20 years now, but would have to find out to be sure. My lawyer does handle a lot of divorces for federal workers (govt is a big employer in this area) so I'm inclined to agree with his take on the situation.

I filed over 90 days ago but we haven't discussed a QDRO yet, as my STBX has been dragging out what should be a simple settlement for 6 months through a combination of inaction and changing his mind/rewriting parts of the MSA every time he sees it - even basic parts we agreed upon months ago. (Perhaps I should mention here that my husband is a lawyer, and he hired a clueless, spineless lawyer with zero experience in family law who is pretty much a sock puppet in this situation. Very frustrating.)

[ForeverDad]

It's amazing how much time can be wasted by delays with offers and endless changes.

It's also amazing how many issues and how quickly they can be resolved once you have the case moving quickly.  In my case, we had been checking off each item on my court's checklist (mediation attempt, parenting investigation, custody evaluation, settlement conference and various continuances) and wasted about 22 months while my then-stbEx dragged her feet.  Nothing was accomplished since she had no pressure to negotiate in a meaningful way.  Since she had temp custody it was to her benefit to delay and obstruct as long as she could.  I arrived at court on Trial Day (she could delay no longer) and was greeted with the news she was ready to settle.  What could not be settled in two years was hammered out in a settlement in a few hours.

Amazing what an impending court event will do to get thing moving along.  The frustration was that it took two years to get there and give her some real motivation.

[Undertow]

That's exactly it - he has no pressure to negotiate. He moved to a different city late last fall, has only had the kids for 2 weekends (once at my insistence), is the king of online dating, and still can come back to the house whenever he feels like it to hang out with the kids and dogs because I have no legal grounds for exclusive occupancy. Why should he rush anything?

Unfortunately, I think you're right in that only a court date will get him to behave like an adult and quit dragging this out.

[ForeverDad]

Clearly it is up to you to keep the case moving along as fast as possible and always on the court's docket, though it will still feel a snail's pace.

If he moved out and lives elsewhere, I believe you can file a motion to have possession of the home at least during the divorce process, who gets to keep it afterward would be worked out later on.  Just informing him of your boundaries and changing the locks may be legally sufficient too but could invite conflict, depending on his behavior patterns.  What does your lawyer say?

I handled ordering my own QDRO through a reputable online website, it saved me nearly half the cost my lawyer would have charged me.

How to Process Your Own QDRO

[Undertow]

According to my lawyer, no, I can't get exclusive possession because he still owns half the house and he has never been abusive. I was advised that I am not allowed to change the locks. It's maddening, but nothing compared to the experience of so many others on these boards.

I don't have this on the court's docket yet, but it sounds like I should. We have been so close to having MSA actually signed, and I was (naively) hoping we could resolve this without court, and for a little while, it looked like we could. But my STBX just keeps getting more unreasonable and inconsistent.

I'll check out the QDRO site, thanks. I do think the federal govt has its own regs regarding pension division in divorce, though.

[Forestaken]

When he will retire? Unknown right?

I would take the lump sum and move on

[livednlearned]

But my STBX just keeps getting more unreasonable and inconsistent.

My experience echoes this. I think it's good to keep in mind when you're making a decision that lets you cut your losses.

My L told me to be really careful and to use an experienced retirement L to handle the QDRO, which I did. There are tax implications and all kinds of complexities that could expose you to nightmares down the line if you don't understand the laws. It's probably the biggest part of your financial settlement, so be cautious about trying to save a few dollars here.

[ForeverDad]

Here's what happened in my case.  This all happened after the final decree since that's when we put the financial settlement in writing.  I filled out the DRO information online, had the online company review it (probably done by a computer program), submitted it to the court/retirement plan for review and approval.  I forget which entity came first.  Once it was reviewed and approved by my plan's administrator the DRO became a QDRO (Qualified DRO) and I submitted that to the court.

What happened next is probably standard in the industry and protected me from tax consequences.  If a check had been written directly out of my retirement account and she didn't put it into her own retirement account, I would have gotten a huge tax/penalty for her failure.  Instead, the plan created an account for my ex and moved that money over to her account.  Then she was notified of HER account, provided access and it was up to her to leave it there or take it as a distribution or loan.  That way EX was responsible for any taxes or penalties for early withdrawal, not me.  To this day I still don't know what she chose to do with it, but I'm fairly sure she drained it quickly.

[Undertow]

Thank you for all of these excellent points. LnL, I think I'd feel better if an experienced retirement attorney handled this... . God only knows where the closest one to me is located, as we live in a very rural area, but I will start checking into that.

[livednlearned]

Thank you for all of these excellent points. LnL, I think I'd feel better if an experienced retirement attorney handled this... . God only knows where the closest one to me is located, as we live in a very rural area, but I will start checking into that.

I dealt with my QDRO entirely by phone and mail, even though the attorney lived in town. She was excellent, and I felt very comfortable doing everything remotely with her. I didn't have to do any face-to-face signings with N/BPDx at all -- that was one of my requirements. No in-person signing.