Not I hate you, don't leave me... but I love you, go away?

[Newkate]

I've heard about the infamous "I hate you; don't leave me." But my BPD SO seems to pull the opposite, "I love you; go away." He never begs me to stay, he cuts the ties even before I would think about leaving him. He is the king of silent treatment and going about his daily life seemingly unscathed. He will then come back around with how much he loves me, but at the same time will not ever do anything to "get me back." It's like he plays it the opposite way... . He can't trust anyone. He will only hurt me. I deserve better than him.

Is this reverse psychology? I am so confused.   

Does anyone else experience this?

[babushka]

I've experienced several "nice" break-ups initiated by the BPD where it's seems all said and mushy. They just can't do this anymore but will always love me, etc. These seemed correlated with me trying to nicely but firmly enforce a boundary. I've also experienced meaner break-ups where my real or perceived flaws were coldly cited as the ONLY reason for the break-up.

[Inside]

Newkate: “I love you; go away." He never begs me to stay, he cuts the ties even before I would think about leaving him.”

Yes, I experience the same.  After the initial idealization, which we all seem to experience  I’ve felt more push than pull.  My uBPDgf (I never know which ‘tense’ to use) keeps me on a string, and it seems I could/ can never see enough of her.  We’ve always lived apart, which appears to be an excuse for staying heavily involved with her multitude of social activities.  We could live together, a financial benefit to both, but she is extremely hesitant … and now aware of BPD …so am I. 

But it’s weird, if a bit embarrassing… that I almost envy those around here who’ve ‘got’ to live with their BP.  Mine just keeps me on that string when we’re attached – and on the shelf when we’re not.  It seems to me that her life has precluded a lasting relationship for so long she doesn’t know how to commit, or make one work.  And though it seems crazy that I’d be looking for that, it always feels as though I’m chasing her – after consistently being ‘kicked out’ of her life. 

Early on I noticed the abandonment fears often and heavy (prior to understanding or recognizing the BPD), but I’m afraid she knows I’m so well hooked that’s no longer a concern.  So, her replacement fear is that of abandoning a lifestyle - that gives her the attention she craves and the opportunity to tease others.  She talks convincingly of wanting to break her habits and settle down … as age increases and looks begin to fade, but can never follow through. 

I’ll await an answer to your question - and see if it doesn’t apply to me.

[rollercoaster24]

Hi all and to 'inside'

I too have the same situation with my ex?uBP. We met early 2010, we were friends at first, and I provided temporary accommodation to him whilst he supposedly secured more work. During the first few months, he was applying for jobs, we became involved, and after that, his job search ended for good, meanwhile I worked full time and paid for everything, including supplementing his low income every single week because he spent too much of his money and ran out without fail.

That was when the "I hate you, don't leave me' went into full swing. uBP used every single aspect of my life to punish me/push me away and pull me back in again, such was his fear of abandonment. First it was my 'inappropriate friends', (his words were fouler than this), then my job, my family, my life, my house, my past, you name it.

The abuse and threats I was subjected to topped the scales of every single aspect of abuse mentioned here, and he felt he was justified in all of it, (he also seemed to play out perpetual games of revenge, which are still evident in everything he says and does today).

In February 2012, he instigated physical violence yet again, with my close family, and came out worse for wear, (he ended up copping 2 hits himself). He had been offered the chance many times before it got to this, to sit down with my family and resolve his differences with them, but he refused, (dismissing all of us as idiots and 'children', and other choice words thrown in), so instead, his projection and blame was so high, he decided to fight it out, (like a teenage boy).

If I had been present at the house this would never have happened. But BP was sneaky enough to wait until I had driven off, (after refusing to be engaged in yet another of his provocations on my front lawn). I thought he had driven off too, and was only 5 minutes away, avoiding going up to my workplace, (also close by) as I feared he would follow me there and publicly humiliate me again trying to provoke me into argument.

From that February he moved back to stay with his elderly parents, he is now 46, unemployed, malnourished, (blames his parents) his car is broken, (running rough and in need of a lot of work) has lived there (yet again) free of charge, yet has not bothered to better his own life and seek employment.

There is always a perpetual excuse that his life is so miserable, (his parents are the biggest targets right now and when he stayed at mine it was myself and my family/friends/life. He is still stuck firmly in this mindset, and validating him only serves to give him license to complain even more.

I have validated him for the whole time, but it has done nothing, I also tried to resolve everything he was upset about, (on my part) to no avail.

Every week, (on unemployment payment day) he disappears overnight, (sometimes 2) and justifies this to me. He often has short term cash loans, (high interest) and is eternally paying them off every week, along with making at least $100 on top of what he has left out of his government payment, pays no board rent or utility payments, yet is always running out of money within about 2-3 days. I have long suspected he has a substance abuse habit, and I also have reason to believe he may be cheating too.

He never answers his phone on the nights he 'disappears', and there is always an excuse, he says he is up in the hills, or parked in a nearby city chilling by the sea in his car, but I am not convinced this is true.

He says he is lonely and I am his only friend, but then that changes too, so I never know what the truth is.

In the last 60 days, since he assaulted me twice on the 10/6 and the 7/7 we have only seen each other twice, he does not invite me to visit him anymore, and I believe he is trying to force me into providing another place for him to live, (just for the two of us) as his parents have had so much stress with him there, (and violence) that they have begun to pressure him to move on.

Now there is no physical contact between us, only daily chats on the phone, and he wants me to text him Goodnight as normal, yet he mostly talks and acts as if we are still together. If I bring up intimacy, and how I wonder how he is coping without any, (sexual contact) he becomes instantly enraged, and says he is malnourished and this is the last thing on his mind. But then he talks inappropriately sometimes, and jokes the same, so I wonder how he can be split so much.

None of my needs are being met by him at all. I have suggested that we need physical contact, intimacy together, yet he refuses almost to allow me to go up to stay with him, he also will not come here, it is not suitable for him, and it is not safe for us here either.

As he runs out of money, he begins to paint our relationship black again, (which changes to we don't have one and haven't since I 'kicked him out'.

So I wonder why I don't just do NC.

Why the hell do I put up with this? Why do I still love this man so much? When it is so obvious to everyone around me, that he has treated me like crap and still is?

[patientandclear]

I've heard about the infamous "I hate you; don't leave me." But my BPD SO seems to pull the opposite, "I love you; go away." He never begs me to stay, he cuts the ties even before I would think about leaving him. He is the king of silent treatment and going about his daily life seemingly unscathed. He will then come back around with how much he loves me, but at the same time will not ever do anything to "get me back." It's like he plays it the opposite way... . He can't trust anyone. He will only hurt me. I deserve better than him.

Is this reverse psychology? I am so confused.   

Does anyone else experience this?

Hi Kate.  Just -- yes.  I've noted before how similar my uBPDex seems to be to your guy.  Same--he loved me, didn't know why it had to be this way, he couldn't deal with the pain again, couldn't take the risk of hurting me again.  King of the silent treatment, seems to be unscathed, rationalizes that this is just how life is, life is about loss.  The fact that this perhaps could be avoided through risk and effort -- not something he seems willing to explore.  After he left me, he hung around wanting me to do something to fix it, it seemed, though I didn't realize that's what he wanted, because with only a word or two from him, I would have tried again.  But he never said that word.  When I finally stumbled onto this dynamic, he wanted to talk about trying again, but without the slightest gesture at understanding what had gone wrong or how it might be avoided in the future.

I don't think it's reverse psychology -- I think it's their utter lack of conviction that there is a solution or a way of dealing with the bad feelings that come over them.  Your guy saying he couldn't go back & do that again -- I think when they contemplate trying again with us, the risk of that bad feeling coming back seems very high, & they don't know what to do to prevent or stop it.

Very sad.

[jollygreen]

Hey newkate, Yes I got the 'I love you go away' too. after almost 3 years of a relationship and living together for one year she crossed a boundary I couldn't let slip. A week went by where all was ok. Then she split me black, peaced out and silent treatment for a month and a half. After that we met up where she said she loves me and still wants me in her life but not a relationship and not together. I think the hard part is all the random reasons she gave and absolutely the fact that she says she loves me makes no sense?

[Validation78]

Hi Kate!

I know how hard it is to be involved in a conversation with someone you love, and whose outward appearance conveys rationality and logic, yet when we really hear, via actions AND words, what they are saying, it makes no sense. If he is a pwBPD, we are only torturing ourselves when we try to make sense out of disordered thinking. We've all tried so hard to believe that there is a glimmer of hope in what they say, and end up confused and frustrated. They are even more confused and frustrated, dealing with inner turmoil we can't even imagine, so how on earth could they really convey rational logic when it comes to emotions?

The best way for me to accept any of what was said was through Radical Acceptance. It allows me to take a moment to review a conversation, put it through my ordered thinking filter, and write off what makes no sense to the mental illness. It's hard, I know, however, it beats asking questions there really are no other answers to.

Best Wishes,

Val78

[Scout99]

Hi Newkate!

I can only side with inside, patientandclea and jollygreen and tell you that I too experience, and have experienced exactly this with my current and undecided r/s with my udBPD "bf"... .

It has in my case been a push and pull kind of deal since the start due to many hard to understand reasons, that one day mean everything and the next means nothing, to him... . Which makes it hard for me as a partner to grasp which one really resonates with what he really wants or feels... . Probably due to the reality fact that he doesn't know himself... .

I think actually this is more common than the I hate you, don't leave me statements that usually is the stigma of BPDs, since at the core of their disorder is just the fact that they simply just always feels too much, and after all, hate usually spells love anyway... . right?

They cut ties and resorts to silent treatment before us ever contemplating leaving them, because the fear of us one day maybe doing so, and the fear of abandonment as a whole is a way more uncomfortable feeling to experience than the actual taking place of it. And since trying to run away from and or avoiding to having such feelings is a huge part of their coping strategies, choosing to disengage is usually functions as a release and relief from the anxiety, they often choose that road... .

In a sick way it is sad, since most of us too fear abandonment and carry a lot of co dependency issues, the likelihood of us leaving is often slim... . I mean we usually put up with a lot of abuse and emotional terror within the realm of these relationships, (that is our issues), but the mere risk and also the increased level of intimacy that comes from actually feeling that the other party, that is us, truly care about them, is usually also to much for them to bear... .

Intimacy raises the stakes and increases the level of hurt if it goes sour. And running away or pushing us away becomes a way to get out of the horrors of worrying about all of this... .

This quote from your post really says it all:

He can't trust anyone. He will only hurt me. I deserve better than him.

They are usually telling us the very truth when they make such statements... . But when we try to challenge the lack of logic in them, it becomes overwhelming to them, and then they usually resort to either black painting or silence... .

Not because they don't care, but because they care too much.

A way to make sense of it could be to translate it to something like this:

I care too much about you, but the fact that I do, creates such an emotional turmoil in me and I can't handle myself when I feel that way, so I have to flee to get out of that emotional avalanche... .

They usually make it about circumstances , like in my case he tells himself that he can't handle long distance r/s's, or it is disrupting some of their (compulsive routines they have built up for themselves to avoid whatever other things that creates emotional turmoil in their lives, or about their "social life" that they keep to prevent them from feeling restless and or lonely... . Or about made up flaws in you... . Or whatnot... . But in truth it always is about feeling too much and an disability to sort and differentiate big issues from small... .

And there is not a dang thing we can say or do to make a difference or make them change their minds... . They have to arrive there themselves. And without proper treatment or help that hardly ever happens... . And that is a very sad fact that we usually have to face and deal with.

At least that is my take on it... .

Best wishes

Scout99

[emotionaholic]

Newkate

I experience the same sort of behavior and I completely understand the pain and confusion you are going through.  In trying to sort out and explain my rocky relationship and why I stay I have had a couple of conversations with my BPDgf (ex?)'s ex husband about their relationship.  He states that he has never know her to be as happy as when she became involved with me 3 years ago today (currently 1month into complete silence from her.)  I asked him about their breakups and makeups, friend and family involvement and the run away issues that I have experienced.  I have come to the conclusion that I got it worse than him for the reason, backed up by her ex husband and her T, that it is because she does love and care about me so much.  It is as though the more they love you the more they have to run.  The stakes are higher for them, the fear of abandonment is greater, the setup for failure is greater, making their trust issues that much more fragile.  It is overload for them, we are too good to be true, because everyone is going to hurt them especially the one they love the most. It is so sad.   If only they could see what is so obvious, that unconditional love we have for them, but it just scares the crap out of them.  It can not be true I am too much of a horrible person this must all be a lie I must run away now.  Trust is what it all comes down to they can not even trust themselves.

[Inside]

Pat…... “I think when they contemplate trying again with us, the risk of that bad feeling coming back seems very high, & they don't know what to do to prevent or stop it.”

…so when my BPgf shoves me off, then inevitably hunts me down for a reconcile …and we never (ever) come close to what we ‘once had’ …and I’m shoved off again … she’s simply looking to limit the pain?  For both of us... ?  Predetermining it ‘won’t work,’ she only lets us get ‘so close’ before ending it, again?

Jollygreen: “Yes I got the 'I love you go away' too. after almost 3 years of a relationship and living together for one year she crossed a boundary I couldn't let slip. A week went by where all was ok. Then she split me black, peaced out and silent treatment for a month and a half. After that we met up where she said she loves me and still wants me in her life but not a relationship and not together. I think the hard part is all the random reasons she gave and absolutely the fact that she says she loves me makes no sense?”

Ditto! (though we've never 'lived together'  And that ‘week that went by’… never letting us in on the plan … playing as if all was fine …while planning her exit -- and likely targeting our replacement.  Someone around here suggested that whenever we pine for the good – we quickly remind ourselves of the bad.  Maybe it’s telling how easy that is to recall…

“…said she loves me and still wants me in her life”…   Mine, too -- after …Round 6!  Silly me   …what the heck...  

I do think they love us, as hard and long as they can…  They just can’t sustain it.  Seems so much of their behavior relates to that of a child that I try to view it as such.  Let’s see… a child gets bored with a familiar toy, especially when there are so many ‘new ones’ around?  A child doesn’t think long-term, just can’t.  And, a child doesn’t understand ‘adult love’ or commitment.  

So, here I am, actually planning on heading to her place this evening to help her prepare for a family gathering…  Yah, I’ll likely get paid…   And I’ll also (so much) want to remain a part of her life (crazy as it often is), will be invited to the party …let back in –just a little, then likely shoved away in the near future when she once again concludes she’s relationship averse…  No win?

[jollygreen]

Scout thank you so much for your analysis and input on this topic. It's been hard for me because there are times when I jump back and forth to thinking my ex found someone else to it being her own emotional turmoil. I guess because she left so open ended I don't know what to accept. But you're right, just accept as is and move forward. To match up more of our experiences my ex did have identity issues, said she wasn't perfect, and said I deserve better than her. And I did try to reason her thinking, it didn't work of course.

[Scout99]

Pat…... “I think when they contemplate trying again with us, the risk of that bad feeling coming back seems very high, & they don't know what to do to prevent or stop it.”

…so when my BPgf shoves me off, then inevitably hunts me down for a reconcile …and we never (ever) come close to what we ‘once had’ …and I’m shoved off again … she’s simply looking to limit the pain?  For both of us... ?  Predetermining it ‘won’t work,’ she only lets us get ‘so close’ before ending it, again?

Not Pat... . but... . yes, I think you come pretty close there... . Just brush of some more of the intellectual logic there and keep the emotional logic and you come closer to perhaps not understanding but at least seeing how it might work for a person w BPD when the emotional avalanches get too overwhelming for them... .

When she shoves you off, as you put it, it is because she can't handle her feelings, (her feelings of love for you, her feelings of fear if she may loose you, if she in the future will do stuff, that she knows she very well might, since she has a hard time with self control, fear if getting too close to you may hurt if you for whatever reason grow distant or again she may do something... . throw into the mix also some stuff at work that upsets her, some parent or friend doing stuff that she feels hurt her), and then put it all in a shaker and connect an amplifier to it an some pretty massive speakers, and you get closer to what the tumbler she has on the inside looks and feels like... .

That is a place she can not stand to be in, so she needs to get out of it, and since you in all probability is the person in her life that causes her strongest emotions, she pushes you away... . Not because she necessarily wants to, but because she feels too much in your presence, and she needs to get out of that... . Now!

Then once out, inner turmoil subsides, anxiety is released and now feelings of loss and missing and feeling sorry for herself perhaps take place... . Or, simply peace for a little while, and then she may start longing for you again, because some more pleasant feelings of love and affection gets a bit of room and the shaker is not so crowded at the moment... . and so she acts on that and pulls you back in again... . Or as many other partners experience... . The fear of feeling like that again, as with the crowded shaker with the amplifier, grows so big that they simply fear going back so they paint you black and then seek validation and love elsewhere... . Always hoping for finding love and peace of mind... . But since we can not run away from ourselves... . That is nowhere to be found... . So the merry go round keeps turning... .

In a way I think from a logical staNPDoint this is something we could learn to relate to, and may help some of us at least to find better peace in understanding the why's and the how's when it comes to our BPD SO's behaviors... . At least it has helped me understand a bit more anyway... .

 

I do think they love us, as hard and long as they can…  They just can’t sustain it.  Seems so much of their behavior relates to that of a child that I try to view it as such.  Let’s see… a child gets bored with a familiar toy, especially when there are so many ‘new ones’ around?  A child doesn’t think long-term, just can’t.  And, a child doesn’t understand ‘adult love’ or commitment.  

So, here I am, actually planning on heading to her place this evening to help her prepare for a family gathering…  Yah, I’ll likely get paid…   And I’ll also (so much) want to remain a part of her life (crazy as it often is), will be invited to the party …let back in –just a little, then likely shoved away in the near future when she once again concludes she’s relationship averse…  No win?

Well... . this is where our own issues come to play... . And all the uncomfortable but important questions pop up... . like;

Why do I seek out this kind of relationship, and why is it so hard for me to let her go... . ?

She loves like a five year old... . What is it with that, that resonates so well with me? Or why do I want that?

After all nobody loves as much as a five year old little girl... . But like you say, they don't know how to sustain it... . And as much as they love their doll one day, they love their teddy bear the next... . and all of a sudden none of them gets played with for a long time... .

(I am not saying here that people with BPD are like five year olds, or act like children... . I really don't think that is the case... . But the intensity of feelings sometimes resemble those of children, especially the part where they just have not learned to self soothe, and also in some cases no real functioning objective permanence)... .

Best Wishes

Scout99

[Bananas]

I care too much about you, but the fact that I do, creates such an emotional turmoil in me and I can't handle myself when I feel that way, so I have to flee to get out of that emotional avalanche... .

Yes in rare moments of clarity my ex would say similar words to me.  The closer and more intimate we got, the more he would flee, finally the avalanche gave way.   

[Inside]

Val78… “We've all tried so hard to believe that there is a glimmer of hope in what they say, and end up confused and frustrated. They are even more confused and frustrated, dealing with inner turmoil we can't even imagine, so how on earth could they really convey rational logic when it comes to emotions?”

So we/ I’m simply expecting too much…  I suppose, without an admission of her core problem, BPD, and a dedicated drive and desire to ... extinguish the worst of it… ‘this’ is as good as it gets... ?  …shall I cry now :'( or after my heart's broken, again... ?

And I know “Radical Acceptance” can work for us, I’ve become quite good at it (I think), but that doesn’t give the BP’s anything to work with.  I’ve accepted a lot… but BP’s appear to head straight for your boundaries …and we must maintain some limits to their behavior, since they can’t.  

Scout99: “hate usually spells love anyway... . right?” – Scarry

“I mean we usually put up with a lot of abuse and emotional terror within the realm of these relationships, (that is our issues), but the mere risk and also the increased level of intimacy that comes from actually feeling that the other party, that is us, truly care about them, is usually also to much for them to bear... . ”

Well put…  Mine constantly claims she’s ‘looking out for me.’  And since I rarely if ever put myself first (my issue), while obviously walking on eggshells …it quickly adds up to more than she can bear – so she calls it quits (again).  Cuts the ties in hope of cutting the pain … while likely adding to that level of shame I’ve read so much of.  Gets through it, then begins missing what she had.  I’ve actually begun missing it as soon as we next start up!  

Had a friend say, "you don’t wanna end up one of those breakup-makeup couples"…  though that’s exactly what ‘we’ve’ become.  So OK (personally), I understand my desire for unconditional (or parental) love …definitely lacking from my childhood and quite the narcotic.  I realize how my own behavior was mirrored.  I understand how the ‘speed’ and instant-intensity of the relationship added to the pull.  I realize saying “But I love her” is laughed at among professionals dealing with BPD…  But, I’ve also let her know ‘what she’s up against’ with BPD.  She is seeking therapy for ... associated problems, and always appears to be growing... and trying… and yes, I love her.

So, I just got the call inviting me over... .  If nothing else - I know what I’m in for.  I at least am aware of her ... fears regarding closeness – and I definitely share, in serious detail, all ‘I know’ and all I fear.  Though we always seem to end up in nearly the same place – apart and reeling, I do feel there’s progress.  – And, I thank all of you for sharing your experience and wisdom…  And though there’s a poorly administered site ‘like this’ for those with BPD – it’s nothing like here.  We nons have so much …and I’m sure are thankful, and obviously willing to help another human being…  Lets hang in there, for what it’s worth ~ Inside

[Inside]

Yes - Scout99 …just had to read your answers.  Excellent – now, attempting to sift through what I can remember of them within a full-on encounter with my (five year old ) uBPDgf ~ wish me luck

[Scout99]

 I realize saying “But I love her” is laughed at among professionals dealing with BPD…  But, I’ve also let her know ‘what she’s up against’ with BPD.  She is seeking therapy for ... associated problems, and always appears to be growing... and trying… and yes, I love her.

I don't think we ever should be made to feel ashamed for our ability to love. To love a person who is in turmoil is not something anyone, and especially not a therapist should laugh at... . It is not our ability to love that causes us our pain, but our inability to look out for ourselves and love ourselves too enough to make sure we don't get too hurt and injured... . In my goal for myself I don't see myself not loving my SO if so only in memory... . Instead I see myself being able to see him and love him for what he is, but also value an love myself to a point where I don't either stand nor fall whether or not I have him or anyone else in my life... .

– And, I thank all of you for sharing your experience and wisdom…  And though there’s a poorly administered site ‘like this’ for those with BPD – it’s nothing like here.  We nons have so much …and I’m sure are thankful, and obviously willing to help another human being…  Lets hang in there, for what it’s worth ~ Inside

Word! And Than You too! Your sharing brings meaning and understanding to many of us too, Inside! And yes you are so right, we have a lot here! And it is sad really that there is not anything out there like this for people suffering from this disorder... .

Best Wishes

Scout99

[Scout99]

Yes - Scout99 …just had to read your answers.  Excellent – now, attempting to sift through what I can remember of them within a full-on encounter with my (five year old ) uBPDgf ~ wish me luck

I do!