he asks, "Do you still love me?"

[momtara]

He has visitation with our children.  I want to keep him in a good mood when I can.  So how do I respond when he asks if I love him, uses baby talk on the phone, etc?  We are getting a divorce because I can't live with him and his sometimes cruel behaviors and lies.  But despite myself, I do have some feelings for him and the consequences of being cold to him (like I should) are his anger and hostility.  I could just say "Yes, I love you" and satisfy him, but that also gives him false hope, and then when he asks if we're still getting a divorce and I say yes, he gets upset all over again.

So how do I answer when he asks if I still love him?  Or when he texts me some baby talk?  I have ignored the latter before, but then he asks why I ignored it and he gets upset.

I guess I need to have the guts to set clearer boundaries.  I guess I just feel bad also because he IS in therapy, even if I'm seeing that it would take him years to truly change.

Maybe deep inside I'm unable to let go completely too.

[Validation78]

Hi Mom!

Maybe you're on to something here, you are not letting go completely. That's alright if you think there would be a chance for reconciliation and you want to explore this with him. However, if you don't want that, you do need, as you said, to have stronger boundaries. You can answer the question in SET format (support, empathy, truth) and he will process it. Granted, he may be upset, however, he will get over it. Sounds like now he may be getting mixed messages. You have to be the one to decide what you really want!

Best Wishes,

Val78

[momtara]

I know.  He really will never change enough, or it will take years.  It is sad to break up a family, but he got agitated last year and falsely told the cops that I abused our son!  It wasn't true and he eventually admitted it to me, but it's an example of why I am afraid to live with him, and it's a main reason we are apart.  If he's back in the house, I have to tape everything and be really careful.  It's no way to live.  It is easy to deal with him on the phone being lovey dovey.  He is in therapy but the lies still come out when he is stressed.

I am trying to be careful not to send him mixed messages - but the thing is, HE is the one who brings up things like ":)o you love me."  I try not to respond.  Last month, I ignored the texts, and it resulted in all sorts of angry texts.  And yes, I guess deep inside, I haven't fully let go.

I always tell him "maybe someday" but even that may give him too much hope?  And maybe there is really no chance we could ever live together in the next 5-10 years, and I am lying to myself and him both, because I don't have the guts or strength to just tell him to get out of my life.  Is it bad to say "there's always a small chance in a few years things can change?"  I don't like to say never.

I just wonder the best way to respond to 'do you love me' and such.  I think your SET format is helpful.

[Lady31]

I think it is unhealthy and unfair to respond to him with any type of answer such as "maybe someday" or "you never know what the future holds" type angles.  BPD or not. 

Your responses should state very clearly what you intend to do.  If you are going to go through with the divorce, the response should not waiver from stating that.  Every time he asks these things I would respond with: 

"Please don't ask me those types of questions.  I have every intention of following through with our divorce and all those questions do is stir up false hope and upset feelings.  I'm sorry I can't engage in conversations like that with you.  I'm sorry if that hurts, but it's best for both of us.  I'm letting you know now that I won't be responding to any other messages like that."

You have to get clear and make a decision for yourself and your family.  If you weren't clear you wanted a divorce then maybe you are making decisions to quickly.  If you are clear that you want a divorce and you are telling him these things out of your own fears, then that is selfish and wrong in my opinion.

Hope this isn't too harsh.

Also, in comments you have made about maybe working it out years later or whatever - just what exactly does that look like to you? 

Is it that you are going through with this divorce and him moving out of your life and closing the door and moving on? (Which would require you letting go.) OR is it going through with the divorce while maintaining a relationship with him on some level so you have a safety net incase you don't like how it looks on the other side of it and perhaps leaving the door open?  Remember - that can backfire on you as well.  Once he is over the initial heartbreak of the divorce and it's all done, he may find peace to let go, and you have to be ready for that as well.  Then the safety net is gone.

If you are not sure you want a divorce, I would not be doing anything else until you have decided that completely in your heart. 

[thinkingthinking]

My soon-to-be exBPDh does this same thing, and I now feel like it is just manipulative.  He is seeking affirmation that he knows I can not give him. 

Sometimes it's on the phone, as a straight question.  Sometimes it's more of a "I just can't believe that someone who has been married for 22 years doesn't have feelings anymore", or "people who have been married this long don't treat each other this way".  And the way I am treating him is that I have finally set boundaries.  It's funny to be asked this when the way he treated me for years was so disrespectful and unpredictable.

When these comments/questions come up, I'm learning to say "I'm done with this conversation now".  Boy is that uncomfortable for me!  

When divorce is finalized, my goal is to be able to limit conversations to kid-related topics only.

You state that you "feel bad because he IS in therapy"... . This is still HIS to own, and leaning on you with those questions and texts does not really show progress. And, your empathy is not the same as love.  Sometimes our care-taking personalities lead us to that mistake.  Hang in there!

[empower-me]

I tell my ex when he asks this... "That's not the issue here."   "Please, lets stay focused on the issues at hand and making individual progress."

So that way I am being true to myself since I do still love him but I don't want to lead him on either.  It's an inappropriate question at this point and one that is asked to just lead us in and get us to bite the bait.

So they don't really even require an answer or deserve one.  I'd just change the subject... .   IMPO>.

[momtara]

"So that way I am being true to myself since I do still love him but I don't want to lead him on either. "

Well, that's how I feel too.  I miss the good part of him.  It's too bad that the other part is so scary.

Several people, including someone above, have suggested that maybe I'm not ready to move on with the divorce.  But what is the alternative?  I'm pretty sure I can't ever live with him again and staying separated just gives him even more false hope.  It means that 6 months from now we again have to have the same talk about getting a divorce.

Yes, I know this post is veering back into should I stay or go territory.  I know I have to go.  But no, I'm not emotionally ready for a divorce.  It's sad.  I only intended to get married once.

Maybe we need to stay separated for 6 months more and go no contact or something?  I dunno.

[Cmjo]

Dear Momtara, i know the thought of divorce must be scary. The thought of ending the family was scary but you went through with that and I know you must have had good reason. But you also say he could be scary. And its not right to have to put up with a scary husband. You on,y wanted one marriage. But we only have one life.

I am in limbo too, like you I left a uBPDh and movjed to temporary accommodation. I cant face deciding what my next permanent move will be, and he is taking advantage of that and trying to make me move back. So in a way I know moving on will help draw a line... . I think what is holding me back is guilt though, not love. I feel guilty when I think about how much happier and relaxed I am now without the stress of having to deal with him immaturity and scary behaviour. Wy dont you tell us what was scary about him... ? Repeating that may help you see clearer.

[stevemorrison]

Wy dont you tell us what was scary about him... ? Repeating that may help you see clearer.

For myself this is one of the best things I have done to figure out exactly why I don't want to be in my particular relationship. I find when I think of my ex its often in terms of the good things and I often forget or tone down the negative memories. Only by writing them down with as much detail as possible was I able to see that over 3 years nothing had changed, I was still being put in situations that really embarrassed me and scared me and that if I stayed in the relationship it would keep happening.

Perhaps expand on the issues you raised above with e police incident as a start (you don't have to do it here). How did that make you feel? Do you think he is capable of doing it again? Could his lies potentially lead to you losing your child for hours, days or longer? How would you feel if this happened again?

Another thing I find helpful is to brainstorm everything at the moment you feel unhappy and uncomfortable about when you live with your husband. And then write down how those things would be better/different with you living on your own. It might be something like if he's jealous of you leaving the house to spend time with your friends, if you live by yourself you can see you friends whenever you like and not have to check with anybody first. Another might be that you have to try really hard to keep him happy when he is around, ie trying not to say the wrong thing, walking on eggshells and generally be stressed all the time knowing he could be set off at any time. If you live by yourself you can feel happier  and less stressed because you are not worried about pleasing someone else the whole time.   

[allinthesmall]

"Well, that's how I feel too.  I miss the good part of him.  It's too bad that the other part is so scary."

That's the hardest part of all for me. I really love and care about the good part of my H. But, at home I don't get the good part, everyone else does.

I try to remind myself that the good part of H isn't real, but the ideal him that he created, and comes and goes as needed. Who he is at home, with me, is who he really is. That's why I journal.

It is difficult to mourn the person you thought he was while at the same time coming to terms with who he really is.   

[Vindi]

yes, you may love him, but are not *in* love with him.

And yes, he may be hoping for a change on your part. And yes take this time to dig deep and decide about the divorce. I don't think anyone likes to go thru breakups, divorces, etc, its a huge step, but I truly think you know which direction you should go. And that direction may be unclear and unknown and I know alot of people are afraid of the unknown.

And i am sure it will be difficutlt doing NC esp with childrend involved.

Do what you think is best and stay true to you.

[momtara]

Someone asked about the scary part.  That's the fact that I have to constantly document everything because of the lies.  He got upset and falsely told the police I abused our son.  Luckily it didn't go anywhere, but if I actually am living with him again, he could just one day go do the same thing.  You can't live with the enemy.

He has, in lucid moments, told me he knows he did something wrong.  He told his therapist he lied.  He told his family he lied.  That's a big step.  And he feels that this is why he should come home.

But I see the behavior happening again in little ways.  I'd really feel trapped if he did this when he was living with me.

SO yes, I have to detach, I have to let go.  I'm just a really sentimental person.  Yes, cmjo you are correct that maybe I feel guilt, not love. 

But it's hard to tell which part of him IS the real him.  They are both such opposites. 

I am really just emotionally exhausted and can't trust him anymore.  Yet I still want to say "maybe someday" because who knows?  It may not be healthy to keep saying that tho.

I am going to send him an email this week telling him that I can't always respond to his texts and calls as if nothing happened.  I have to do it in a calm, validating way. 

[empower-me]

Momtara,

When you are having this type of emotional struggle, it's good to just back off and let it alone for now.  There is no rush to Divorce him at this point and why have another conversation.

Do what you need to do in order to stay stable and move forward.  Just the fact that you are aware that you cannot live with him is 'progress' and the rest is just a matter of you finding your footing and having the mental and physical ability to finalize it.

And it does take a lot out of you to do that.  So i'm thinking N/C for now and just take care of you... We all love the good side we seen 5 % of the time but reality has veered our course and it is what it is.

We love them from a distance and realize that we cannot go back to that pain and uneasiness and craziness or possibly having a police record! NO thank you!

So give yourself some time.   I too got that message before about Divorcing him right away to avoid sending false hope messages but I wasn't ready to do that and it caused so much anxiety.  do it on your timeframe girlfriend...

[momtara]

Thanks empower-me.  Well, I did file for divorce so it is going through the process.  I'm not ready, but there is a court date in September.  It's just emotionally taxing.

What did you do?  Did you stay separated for a while first?

I just have to get off the emotional roller coaster.

The thing is, without a chance that we may get back together someday, he won't keep getting counseling.  If I committed to trying to work on it, he might get counseling.  Even with weekly work, progress would be years off.

I have to get divorced or at least, not stay with him.

[empower-me]

I haven't filed yet. I had the papers all ready to go and had to just back off due to my own health issues...

[empower-me]

I think that we can learn alot from the situation by just listening to our own intuition and follow our gut.

We can get so much amazing advice on here and many times we would be better off following it but, if we are not ready to take that on and all that it implies, then it will not be to our benefit.

You can always ask for a postponement and just see how you are doing at that time.

You cannot do anything that you are not ready to follow thru with without experiencing negative consequences.  It really has to be on your terms and time table.

I know we have to protect ourselves but you know the situation better than ANYONE else and have to do whats best for you and everyone involved... . IMPO>.  Maybe file for a legal separation if you aren't ready to do the D?

[momtara]

He was the one who kind of pushed for it, saying if I couldn't live with him, I should just file for divorce.  He regrets that now.  However, if I had waited, I might have gotten suckered back into a roller coaster relationship.

I could get a separation agreement.  Problem is, I'm pretty sure I'll just want the divorce in the end anyway - I can't keep giving him false hope.  I think it just upsets him and then when he has the kids for the weekend, he's in a bad mood.

I have to have the guts to just step away.

[empower-me]

Whatever you feel is best friend... .

[Cmjo]

I can relate to how he is pushing you to divorce... . knowing that probably you cant go through with it... . because you are sensitive and he knows that in the past you have given up fighting sometimes and given in to him, because its too hard to fight this disorder.

And it is a form of blackmail that he is in a bad mood when he has the kids, he knows this will get to you as well, you will feel sory for him, you might just give in and say OK lets give it another go and then... . you have een sucked back in.

Luckily we werent married so I dont have the worry of the courts looming, though many have advised me here to get a court order for the kids... . but the thought of that panics me... . just having to go through the while lawyer thing... I am a lawyer! Partly also because I know he would absolutely flip if I went to court, and I would be painted as the devil woman, and god knows how he would explain it to the kids... so in a way not acting because I dont want to provoke his anger is a form of bullying. I do realise that.

The first and easiest step (and the truth) would be to say you do not feel ready mentally for a divorce, so to let you take your time on that... . but that you do not feel you are able to go back. Just a few simple words, you could repeat that to yourself every day, and try to breathe and get on with your life without the guilt of what he thinks about you or how he will be.

[momtara]

Thanks, cmjo.

I do have to act at some point.  We have this court date coming up.  You can put it off only once.  If the divorce gets scuttled, I have to start it up again, and that's expensive.  Plus, we settled custody and that's something I don't want to ever worry about again.  That's a big factor in not stopping the divorce.

One thing I know is:  I CANNOT live with him.  That may never change.

If he was a normal person, I could put the divorce off for six months.  But that only means six months more of fresh breakups every month when he asks again if I'm ready.  

I think that I just need to be strong and step away, set clear boundaries, etc.  It's just that it's emotionally hard.  The good side of him is good.  

But if I keep responding to him and letting him get away with the stuff he pulls, he will just keep pulling it.

Well, I have to have hard conversations with my lawyer.  And maybe a therapist.  I have to let go.

I look at people here who are begging for one more chance to talk to their spouses, and I have a spouse who wants to come back.  But it's just too hard to be with him.

[Cmjo]

Our stories are very similar, I know exactly what you are going through. He wont let you believe its real. You cant believe the family is over. But you know this man is not good for you, and if you were strong enough to walk away, because you were convinced he couldnt make you happy, then you are strong enough to stick it out. Good luck.

[momtara]

Well, I think I will send him an email today.  He was trying to be affectionate with me yesterday and not understanding why I didn't respond.  I am struggling because I don't want the email to seem like it keeps the door open for reconciliation.  But I also don't want to be harsh.  Hmmm, maybe I need to be.  I just feel like I have to say something. 

[momtara]

Actually I did the mature thing and didn't send it.  I think it will just send him more mixed messages.  I need to be firmer, and soon.  I may briefly explain by phone why I can't respond to the affectionate stuff.  :)on't want to put it in writing.  I keep changing my mind on whether it will help or hurt.  But sooner or later I will have to let him go, definitively.

Part of me still doesn't want to give up, and that's a problem.  I still need to think all of it through.  And not be completely influenced by the internet, either.  I need to know what I have to do, what's the best for all of us.  I will talk to some professionals.

[thinkingthinking]

Sharing your struggle today Momtara.  Need to go back and take my own advice, but I think that is why this board is good.  Helps us acknowledge the push and pull.

We sold the home we shared, and the process of clearing it out has made soon-to-be exBPDh weepy, sad, telling me that I was the only one that made him "whole".  I have to remind myself how much contemplation and effort it took to get to the decision to divorce, and that regardless of his sadness, this relationship has been so unhealthy.  I can't make him happy and don't make him "whole". And there is no acknowledgement that I have sadness too.  I can still get so wrapped up in his emotions that I completely ignore my own.

Last night when his texts and calls started, I almost got sucked in but then turned off my phone and went to read.  I congratulate you on not sending the email!  I know how hard it is to resist getting pulled into that circular conversation!

[momtara]

Yes.  He is losing a lot.  But so am I.  I am so sad.

Relationships and marriage don't come around easily, especially for me.  I do feel special that my stbxh loves me, in his own way.  I am scared of being alone, of knowing I was married once and we loved each other but it couldn't work out.  And that maybe I had the chance to try, but I just couldn't take that risk.  That hurts.

[thinkingthinking]

I am sorry for your sadness too.   There is definitely a grieving process we have to go through regardless of whether we stay or leave. 

We have to grieve the fact that despite our efforts to keep things "together", this is not the relationship we wanted or needed; we stopped expecting to get what we need.  But is that what we want to deal with for then next 20, 30, 40 years?  And I have to ask myself what kind of example it sets for my kids: would I want them in this same type of relationship?  Do I want them to pick up his behaviors?  Unfortunately, my d22 both has some of his BPD traits, and has already been in an emotionally abusive relationship. The bright-side is that she recognizes it now, at 22.

I know I need to end the crazy for myself and all 3 of my kids.  If I could maintain a friendship with him, I would because I really do still care about him.  But if he can't respect boundaries, I won't.  Like you, I am sad and sometimes lonely.  But I know I am going to be okay, and will even be truly happy again some day.  I know you will be too!

[momtara]

Sounds like you stayed in your marriage for quite a while.  What was the breaking point?

I need to set real boundaries soon.  He told me today he understands I may need to take a few years before getting back together.  I can't let him think that we may get back together in a few years.  Sure, it MAY happen.  But it's not healthy for us to go through life thinking that, because if I disappoint him in the end, he'll be even angrier, and he could lash out at me and the kids.  I have to let him go for now.  If he wants to work on himself and see about coming back some day, maybe he will... .

Thing is, I know it's hard on him to only see the kids once in a while.  I can't imagine what that's like.  That sucks.

[thinkingthinking]

I wish I could say there was some clear breaking point, but it has not been that easy. (It never is!)  Although there were things all along our relationship that were not "right" (such as outbursts of drinking, gambling, excessive spending), things really became difficult as our kids grew older.  The kids' problems were no longer little issues, and it became apparent that I was dealing with all the big stuff on my own.  Emotionally, he could not deal with the big stuff. So this left me dealing with the fallout from his emotional issues, hiding the excessive spending and drinking, working full-time, and dealing with all the kids' stuff.  I was TIRED. 

About 3 years ago I asked for a separation.  He then tried to run his car into a ditch and said he would get help. After about 3 months and him going through an alcohol treatment program, we tried again.  We are fortunate to live by a major medical center and he was able to enroll in a STEPPS program. But honestly, the constant effort was again exhausting and the kids and I were on edge always waiting for the next outburst.  We separated again a year later after he dropped a bunch of money gambling, and I filed for divorce in January.  In February, he tried to overdose, admitting it was to get my attention.  At some point, I just knew that I cared about him, but that it was not going to get better.  In the last 22 years of marriage, I totally lost myself by just trying to keep him stable.  Had no idea it was even happening.  So messy!

Staying with him as long as I did may have done more damage to his relationship with kids than good.  Our 22yo daughter does not count on him for anything.  She feels like she has to make sure he is okay.  18yo son has seen so many outbursts and so much instability that he chooses to see him occassionally, but again does not count on him for anything.  Our 12yo daughter spends time with him two evenings per week, but he has not even considered asking for more time than that.  I think they all accept that he can only give and do what he can. They have a pretty good understanding of BPD behavior at this point.  I think I learned the hard way that "staying together for the kids" is NOT always a good idea, especially if it immerses them in unhealthy behaviors.

[pallavirajsinghani]

To answer your original question:

I think a good reply would be a one sentence, no elaboration:  "I care for you."

Don't even say,  "I care for you very much."

Or, "I wish you well."

Or, "I wish you no harm."

The less emotional you are, the better... . I think I should rephrase this sentence.  Obviously you are emotional, it is an emotional situation.  Your entire predicament is emotional.  What I mean to say is that the expression of your emotion should be drama-free.  BPD sufferers latch on to perceived nuances.  So, you cannot control his reaction nor can you control his emotions... . just as he cannot do it to you.

Mind is and ought to be totally free... . what should be disciplined is the expression, the gesture, the speech reflecting that thought and emotional process.

You really cannot predict how he would feel or reach... . you may think that something will give him false hope... . and in reality, it may just make him angry.

So, keep your contact minimal and courteous.

Your focus should be to maintain civility and courtesy.  Taking care of his emotions and trying to control his reactions is not a healthy thing for either of you.

Hope this helps.

[empower-me]

It helped me... thank you.

I too am struggling to move forward and not look back and HE actually told me in our last conversation that he was done and basically wanted to end any kind of r/s immediately.  It was when I asked him for more money for expenses and that was too much to hear.

He offerred me so much money per month for a year and I said fine!

So now it seems like he has rejected me and that part kinda stings even though I kicked him out and KNOW that we are poison for each other.  I read Getting past your abusive past"" last night and it helped a great deal.

I feel like contacting him to see how he's doing but what for?

Momtara I feel your pain, I really do and thinking thinking I too after almost 30 yrs of marriage lost myself trying to keep him stable and I ended up being so out of sorts it isn't even funny.  Now I struggle trying to maintain my own stability. WTH? 

So I encourage you to stay strong and yes, you will be ok on your own, being lonely isn't a bad thing, and it's better than being abused any day if ya ask me... . and yes, I miss him too. But only about 19% of him, if that.  So it's the dream of the dream we miss.

Stay strong friend...   e-m