I probably ruined any chances...

[Relentless]

So we Dated for 7 months, friends for 13.5 years before that.

She thinks I did something malicious... . I didn't. She's sure.

I was NC for six days. I broke, but she's been giving me silent treatment for 3 weeks + now

Told a mutual friend I was a great bf, but it was a situation she didn't want to be in anymore.

Told others she was scared of me because I was being obsessive/possessive... Meh, not really. A little bit but only here and there. Anyways, she told people to unfriend me and ignore me... . Some did, some didn't. I tried to tell her parents, they won't respond. I messaged her telling her she needed DBT... Among other things. Doubt she read it.

She's in huge denial and totally detached. It's like I never existed... . I wonder if one day she will ever realize/come back. Doubt she will find better.

Anyone have people come back even when you think you ruined it?

[Phoenix.Rising]

Relentless,

I understand you are hurting.  That's a long time to be friends.  Do you want her to come back?  What would you do if she came back?  What would be different?

Sometimes, they do come back or try to reconnect.  I recycled with my ex many times before finally realizing it was getting worse, not better. 

What can you change about yourself whether she comes back or not?

Phoenix.Rising

[Relentless]

Well, she's gonna be gone for 4 months. She always said she would get better one day... . I don't think she is aware it's BPD. I was waiting till we went to counseling to bring it up. Anyways... . I'm her first serious loving relationship, hence her and her parents confusion I'm sure.

If she came back I would want to take things slow as friends maybe leading into more ONLY if she was IN therapy.

But I miss the friendship... . A lot. We had amazing times together.

[Relentless]

And I'm going to keep working on me. I need to lose more weight... . And finish my thesis. So right now that's too priority for me.

I do love her, and a part of me still believes she is the one for me... . But I mostly just don't want to be cut out forever.

[Phoenix.Rising]

And I'm going to keep working on me. I need to lose more weight... . And finish my thesis. So right now that's too priority for me.

This is good!  Exercising helps me, too.  Are you getting a Master's degree?  Or a doctorate?  I have a Master's and I'm enrolled in a doctoral program.

There are a lot of communication skills that are talked about on the Staying Board, too, that can be useful.

4 months should give you some space to get a better perspective on your situation.  I wish you well.

[bruceli]

So we Dated for 7 months, friends for 13.5 years before that.

She thinks I did something malicious... . I didn't. She's sure.

I was NC for six days. I broke, but she's been giving me silent treatment for 3 weeks + now

Told a mutual friend I was a great bf, but it was a situation she didn't want to be in anymore.

Told others she was scared of me because I was being obsessive/possessive... Meh, not really. A little bit but only here and there. Anyways, she told people to unfriend me and ignore me... . Some did, some didn't. I tried to tell her parents, they won't respond. I messaged her telling her she needed DBT... Among other things. Doubt she read it.

She's in huge denial and totally detached. It's like I never existed... . I wonder if one day she will ever realize/come back. Doubt she will find better.

Anyone have people come back even when you think you ruined it?

The above is her mantra... . and you want her back why?

[Relentless]

I don't want her back as a GF at this point. But almost half my life she was a part of it. I just can't imagine she will do better than I. I'm just shocked and I would like her to come back in some capacity. That's why I'm looking for anyone who has a story of people coming back. I miss her in general... .

And I believe the best in people. I suffered from severe PTSD after the war. I was in therapy for years, but I've grown into a loving and caring man who wants to make the world a better place.

I want to be a part of her life... . I hate being cut out. Idk if any of it makes sense.

[bruceli]

I don't want her back as a GF at this point. But almost half my life she was a part of it. I just can't imagine she will do better than I. I'm just shocked and I would like her to come back in some capacity. That's why I'm looking for anyone who has a story of people coming back. I miss her in general... .

And I believe the best in people. I suffered from severe PTSD after the war. I was in therapy for years, but I've grown into a loving and caring man who wants to make the world a better place.

I want to be a part of her life... . I hate being cut out. Idk if any of it makes sense.

I know the feeling and it's hard to move on.  Some come back, but without intensive therapy, it will just be same-ole, same-ole... .

[Gaslit]

Relentless, the reality is that going from just friends (no intimacy, no triggers, etc), to more than friends, to back to just friends, does absolutely not work with a pwBPD.

It's not your fault, but you will forever trigger her.

She likely treats casual friends far differently than how she treats/treated you. You will never be casual, even if you are indeed casual!

It just doesn't work that way. You are a trigger. You are a stand-in of someone deep in her past.

It isn't fair, but it is the reality.

In any case, don't chase. It will have the opposite effect.

Do nothing, absolutely nothing. Be gone gone, and she will come back around. Nearly guaranteed.

Are you sure that is what you want?

[Relentless]

I do want her to come back... . Depending on what happened in the meantime for both of us, and if she is willing to get help... . There is a possible future. Though unlikely. I do believe it is possible.

So no matter the case now... . It's likely she will try at some point... . I feel she truly won't find better anywhere else. And that she is convincing herself something I would never do... . So ya. Idk.

I do hope she comes back one day. In the meantime. I'm not waiting... . But if things fall into place... . Then they do.

Thx for the response... You're right, it's not fair, and it does suck

[bruceli]

I do want her to come back... . Depending on what happened in the meantime for both of us, and if she is willing to get help... . There is a possible future. Though unlikely. I do believe it is possible.

So no matter the case now... . It's likely she will try at some point... . I feel she truly won't find better anywhere else. And that she is convincing herself something I would never do... . So ya. Idk.

I do hope she comes back one day. In the meantime. I'm not waiting... . But if things fall into place... . Then they do.

Thx for the response... You're right, it's not fair, and it does suck

My pwPD is seeking help because things have gottten so bad... . unfortunately she and her T, allegedly, do not feel that she has a PD.  She is being treated for anxiety and depression so the therapy isn't working... . actually it has made it worse... .

[Lao Tzu]

Dear Relentless,

     This "I want her back as a friend if she is willing to get help" is part of the bargaining phase of grief.  It's normal (I did it too), but reality won't conform to the bargain you may feel makes the most sense.  As you have been told, you will always trigger her now and friendship might not be what you truly want anyway (I don't presume to know you, but I know how it was with me).  If she has BPD, the odds that she will accept the diagnosis, get help and stay with it are truly remote.  It's part of the disorder that they just are unable to see the problems in their lives as really being due to them, so accepting a diagnosis like this and getting help would almost be proof that they don't have BPD.

     It is absolutely true that she will not actually find a better person than you anywhere else, but she will certainly find men who are (from her point of view) apparently much better for a time.  Finally, I seriously doubt that you were actually the one who "ruined it".  The pwBPD is generally very good at twisting the facts around (see what "Gaslit" means as well as reading what he says again) until you are certain you are the whole problem.  Of course you might well have screwed up a lot of stuff, but there is no way any person can do it right.  I left my wife for my pwBPD and as soon as I did she found someone else since (as she said at the time) our r/s was no different now from the one she had before she met me.  That was true, of course, as I was as devoted to her as the previous guy was; and this was the 'wrong' that we both were guilty of.  Devotion.

     Keep moving through the grief, man.  It isn't easy or fun, but you'll get to the end eventually.  We're here for you.

LT

[wooddrop]

Im new here. Am I understanding that if Im the trigger there is no hope? That I need to start grieving now?

[Relentless]

I think a part of me wants more in the end.

Me being a trigger. Does this mean that no matter how crazy a villain she believes me to be or makes me look like to anyone... . That one day she might try to come back? She didn't do this with previous guys that I know if, but also never had a loving relationship. Just the abusive one.

I hope she tries to come back one day... .

[Phoenix.Rising]

If she has BPD, the loving relationship is what triggers her.  She has abandonment issues coupled with engulfment issues.  You get close to her, she pushes away.  She fears abandonment, and pulls you in... then pushes away. 

This repeated many times in my relationship with my ex.  I was completely baffled by it in the beginning.  I had no idea what the heck was going on.  Over time, however, with the push came increasing  justifications and rationalizations in her mind why I was the enemy and everything was my fault.  My experience was that it didn't matter how much love I showed her, it only made her push me away.  And if I showed indifference she would feel like I didn't care.  I began to realize I was in a no win situation.  Damned if I do, and damned if I don't. 

What I had to come to terms with is that love is not enough to cure mental illness.  Unless she seeks treatment for herself, the odds of anything being different on her end if she returns are almost nonexistent.  What matters is, what can you do to help yourself? 

[Relentless]

Her friend told me she is "very very done" with me.

Do BPD's still try to come back even after saying such things?

And you're right, I'm working on me.

[Lao Tzu]

Dear Relentless,

     They say a lot worse than that and then come back the next day sometimes. The problem is that the part of them we want to come back, the idealized, mirrored 'soul mate', 'other half', etc. comes back only much more briefly, followed inevitably by the soul-destroying devaluing and rejection.  This is the definition of a recycle, as it happens in this cyclic way.  We don't want a cycle, we want a straight line back to the part of them we like, and therein lies the disappointment we experience.  We want only a part of them and who can give that?  Certainly not someone who may be mentally ill.  Still, the belief we all have had that love conquers all generally leads us to have hope of this return over and over.  There are places on this site where people describe dozens of cycles, sometimes hundreds.  Many can't even say the number as they have been 'married' for years and broken up, found the mate cheating, etc, then got back together so many times over the years it's all one big blur. 

     By the way, Wooddrop, don't take anything I say as "the way it is".  People with BPD are still people and as such are as variable as genetics and environment can make them.  Even the way the DSM characterizes this disorder, there are hundreds of variations at the most basic level.  Also, don't forget that the person you think of might not actually have BPD.  She/he may have traits associated with the disorder only.  There are even some highly respected psychologists and psychiatrists who believe there is no such disorder. 

     We fellow "Non" BPD sufferers try to help each other understand general guiding principles of what we feel is a real disorder, but in the end it's really just a framework for trying to understand a very complex thing -- the human mind. Keep reading and always be a skeptic.  There's a process here that can help you feel much better and it really has almost nothing to do with the pwBPD (or person with traits) anyway.  It has everything to do with you and me, the so-called Nons.

LT

[wooddrop]

Lao Tzu,

Whether psychiatrist et al believe in this disorder or not, means nothing to me other than they are unable to help me. However what Ive been reading on this board and in the book I felt would help me, defines my relationship as if y'all were living with my person.  So that is my where my hope lies. He has moments like u spoke of but they dont last long. He functions well at work, people love him and I often hear hes the nicest guy and he can be. Thats why Im with him. He is trapped, I know it cant b easy having these conflicts in his mind but yet he does nothing anymore to try get help. When we first started dating and he told me he had an "internal illness" as he refers to it, he seemed concerned if he didnt atleast tell me he would seek counseling or resume taking meds I would leave him. I even made him appointments of course he never went. I even gave him my anti depressent meds cause they didnt help me, but what I gave him which he said helped him in the past I found in a drawer unused.  Now its almost 4 yrs later and Im just figuring out that this is more than likely what he terms as his internal illness and I walk on eggshells. Do I want get out from this, sometimes yes. I think I must be crazy to stay right? Love isnt going to heal him. Hes never ever goin trust me as he states over an over like a mantra yet there is such a dynamic here,  but I feel crazy for saying I want to stick it out cause hes not well more than the dynamic is good. Im terribly confused. Ive tried to break off, hes pushed me away more than hes pulled me closer. Ive tried dating and found other guys have issues too, some make me want run back to my person cause his problem seems easier than their kinda crazy. The emotional rollercoaster, it will always b there as long as Im with him right? Its just how I handle it? 

[Lao Tzu]

Dear Wooddrop,

     First of all, it's very encouraging IMHO that he at least understands that he has a problem.  It's much more common with these folks that they absolutely deny the problems in their lives have anything to do with them... In fact, they generally manage to convince their "Nons" that they are the entire problem.  Your pwBPD gets a little gold star for this 

     Second (maybe this should be first), NO, you're not crazy to stay.  There is a whole separate board here devoted to people who choose to stay and I respect them greatly.  In truth, there may not be many of us here who don't really want to stay with our pwBPD -- at least the good part of that person.  It's just not generally possible to stay with only a part of someone.   I'll also give him another little gold star for understanding that one of his basic issues is that he's never going to trust you.  "Most" (if there is such a thing) pwBPD feel they trust completely and then are totally betrayed.  He seems to have more insight than that.  Cool.  By the way, you do too.  "Love isnt going to heal him." is a very perceptive thing to say.  He might be able to heal with a lot of the proper therapy and a fair amount of time, but your love for him won't save him and this is something many people on this site never understand.  So, a big gold star for you!

      You will need time and more reading on this site and elsewhere to help with your very understandable confusion.  Bear in mind, though, that these folks are fairly well known for lying (you refer to a fair amount of it in your post, so I know it's no big surprise to hear this), so a lot of the confusion you feel is likely due to believing lies and then trying to reconcile what you believe with what you see in his behavior.  A useful lesson on this site is that we should believe actions and not words.  The few therapists who are willing to tackle these patients apparently have a rule that anything they hear from the patient as a fact is considered a lie until it's independently verified.  If that's true it's a pretty tough stance, but I totally get it.  I try to never lie, and thus I imagine everyone else is doing the same.  I have to admit this gives people a major advantage over me when they get me moving in the wrong direction sometimes (not that I would change).  I guess I'm suggesting the old Reagan era mantra with the USSR in arms reduction: "Trust, but verify"

     Finally, will the roller coaster always be there?  Every person is different and you both have some fairly unusuallly deep insights, so who am I to say anything will always be any given way?  There might be a great medication for this next year or your significant other might really have a breakthrough.  If there is one thing I have learned in the last few years of my life (the literal translation for Lao Tzu is 'old man' it's that no one should ever make any kind of a prediction about what someone else might do or how something important might play out in their life.  Life is way, way too interesting for that to be worth doing.  Keep on the path you've started down, we're all with you here.

LT

     

[Relentless]

So there are worst cases of this where someone is painted black, get their family and some friends to side with them... . And still come back someday?

Lots of great stuff here.

[Relentless]

I feel like, well if her parents hate me now... . That's really it. And it sucks. Cuz I didn't do anything to deserve this.

[Lao Tzu]

It's really hard to believe, but none of this cr@p really has anything to do with you.  The family is irrelevent as she is probably pretty experienced in telling them lies to correct huge changes in "course" in the past.  "Oh MOM, he's changed so much! He isn't at all the terrible monster he used to be!"  "Look, a unicorn farting rainbows -- I love them!"

LT

[wooddrop]

Thank you Lao Tzu,

I guess my fear is not whether I will leave him but that he will leave me. Yes I feel foolish saying it and no one understands my dirth of feelings for this man. Ive never been a needy person quite the contrary Ive been a strong woman even when I was a girl. Lol. So it appears out of character, foolish and silly to family and friends. But what they have always admired in me in the past is in a part why Im still with him. I love deeply, dont give up easily (thats even documented publically in a article written about me) and Ive never backed down on a cause I have believed in. I  am capable of turning in the towel tho, but when Ive been ready. I think I beat myself up terribly for wanting him in my life cause its not rationale to even him sometimes why I stick it out. He will often ask me why I put up with him. For the same reason I keep birds I guess even with chronic asthma, the same reason I work disasters even tho my lungs are bad, because while Im on this planet these things keep me goin, they are what I love. Idk. Its why I came here.  To understand.

[Phoenix.Rising]

There is definitely nothing wrong with staying with a pwBPD.  I tried everything in my power to make our relationship work, but it wasn't meant to be.

Wooddrop asked if there will always be the emotional roller-coaster with them.  No one can answer that with a complete yes or no, but from my personal experience and from reading a lot and posting on the Staying Board, that seems to be the case.  The difference comes when the non decides to set firm boundaries and take on the role of caretaker.  One has to be very strong in their sense of self and with personal boundaries.  If not, the pwBPD will likely run your boundaries into the ground.  They are very good at that.  PwBPD are like children in many ways, emotionally.

One must also learn different ways to communicate, which includes active listening and using validation.  It requires a huge amount of effort and commitment.  All this can be easier, of course, if the pwBPD decides to accept some personal responsibility and seek help.  I have the utmost respect for the stayers and the leavers.  Both paths are relevant and to be respected.

[Relentless]

It's really hard to believe, but none of this cr@p really has anything to do with you.  The family is irrelevent as she is probably pretty experienced in telling them lies to correct huge changes in "course" in the past.  "Oh MOM, he's changed so much! He isn't at all the terrible monster he used to be!"  "Look, a unicorn farting rainbows -- I love them!"

LT

So her dad came to get the last of her stuff. Turns out she recorded me yelling at her. I had been pushed and pushed and in 5 months of abuse I yelled 2x. She snapped on me countless. So he was convinced I treated her like that... I told him that was the exception and that she had been pushing me to that over 5 months.

She told him I took pictures of her without her permission etc. she did not find any pictures when I gave her my phone. I don't know if she told her dad I sent them to someone as she accused me of that night.

Anyways... . Funny, her dad told me he believed I needed help, and that I had the potential to be one of the best, most too notch guys out there.

He also kept saying that she will probably never talk to me again (he threw in a few times though that things change with time and life is interesting and she could change her mind in two weeks, two months, two years). He said she is soo mad at me, and she said she just wants to close the door on it and be done.

He admitted knowing she needs help though. But because of the recording I am framed as an ass, and I'm not. I admit losing control and saying hurtful things that night and ONE other time... . But felt true in the moment.

I wonder if that anger fades over time. The anger was mentioned a lot. Even if I had taken pics... . Was it THAT bad?

[Lao Tzu]

Relentless,

     IMHO, what matters is what you think about your behavior, not the dydregulated pwBPD, her manipulated dad or anyone else.

LT

[Relentless]

I didn't do anything malicious. I'm not a malicious person. I think she is crazy. Even if I had taken pics, I wouldn't share them, and it would have been for a good reason. Not a bad one.

So no, even if I had, I don't think I deserved this.

You think there are cases like this or worse where they still come back and pull the "he changed"?

I imagine she won't stay uncontrolled angry forever. Heh. It's really her loss. My painful gain. You think she will stay forever away and just throw away 14 years like that? Or will it mirror her mother who is the reason for her BPD, where she just recently reconnected with her a year-2 ago.

I know no one has the answers. But I'm looking for opinions. I'm curious based on others experience. Lao, you still go with what you said? Anyone else have someone try to come back after anything crazy where it felt really over?

[Lao Tzu]

Well, to quote myself (never did that before!):  "They say a lot worse than that and then come back the next day sometimes."  The wiser heads here will say, though, that you need to get to the point where you control your own happiness enough that the question is irrelevent.

LT

[Relentless]

Lol Lao. Good self quote. I just wanted to give what happened and see if you still though they were likely to try to come back at some point.

I'm getting closer each day to truly not caring... . Right now it's a mix of genuine curiosity and some selfish curiosity.

I just want to hear a story of this magnitude or worse where the girl came back after promising they never would... . That the door was closed on the person.

So many times she told me we would get through anything... . That we were meant to be, and that we had to end up together. I feel so crappy. Even if I took pics... . If you truly love someone like that... . Wouldn't you hear them out or ask? Give them a chance. I mean... . A second chance?

If it was all truly so wonderful and you said you never loved something so much, nothing in your life meant as much... . Boom. Rage time and it's all done forever?

Sorry for rambling.

[Lao Tzu]

Dear Relentless,

     Rambling is actually very good -- it's kind of a mind dump, and dumping this cr@p is always a good thing; ramble anytime.  There are materials on this site about the problem of hanging on to the words they said and there are a number of threads you can access by using the search tool where there are good discussions about whether a pwBPD is even able to love.  The short answer to the latter seems to be: NO.  Your love for her is the self-sacrificing, eternal thing that love is meant to be.  What "they" seem to feel is closer to just being pleased that someone gave them what they wanted.  They say the right words easily enough and can be very convincing (mine brags about that daily), but it isn't love if it doesn't go both ways.  And, by the way, what you had (I'd say what we had since it was the same way with me, but that would sound a little weird) won't "conquer all" exactly because it actually wasn't love on her part. 

     Dr Wayne Dyer made a bunch of money writing books called: "I'm OK, you're OK".  Well, in this case it's closer to "I'm OK, you're OK and our SOs just aren't"  Do the reading and hang in there; it gets better.

LT