How my feelings for H have changed - any advice

[PeppermintTea]

My H was diagnosed BPD about a year ago (we're in the UK).

He has seen a psychologist for some individual sessions and is having now a weekly group session which will go on for about 2 years. So he has recognised he has problems and is trying to work with the therapy he has been offered via the NHS.

At the moment I feel like a community support worker rather than a wife. I am constatnly mindful to try to use the techniques and to do this and that to help him. I am so very tired though of this constant vigilence. I just want a relationship where I'm allowed to have an off day without the world imploding.

All of this has made my feelings for H change. I care about him and want the best for his wellbeing. However I can't say that I feel deeply connected emotionally or sexually. One of H's biggest complaints is that I don't share my emotions with him and that I don't initiate sex with him like I used to. My response to that is that H has spent 6 years ignoring my emotions and behaving like such a demanding child that I now really struggle to see him in a sexual way.


I have tried really hard to get H to see the connectionbetween his foul moods and my withdrawal and the subsequent lack of sex / intimacy. He just doesn't get it at all. If I try to broach the subject when he is calm he flips. Yet he is the one who wants more intimacy. I think I could cope being close but not as intimate as we were at least until he is more able to manage the BPD. But he wants a fulfilling sexual relationship with me right now and has hinted that this could be a deal breaker for him.

We have been together 6 years and have 2 children D2 and D3.

Any advice what to do? Would couples therapy help?

PT xx

[desperatehubby]

Hi Peppermint

I think you need to think about whether or not you have the energy left to go through couples therapy. The reason I say this is because I'm in a very similar boat. I'm in the UK too, been married to uBPDw for 7 years (no kids owing to infertility issues)... . she has overdosed loads of times, and we have had miscarriages, ectopic pregnancies the lot.

She was diagnosed with Stress/Anxiety/Depression in 2006, but, following on from my recent attempt to end our marriage, she may finally be getting a diagnosis of BPD.

I had a seizure last year, mainly bought on by stress of 7 years of rages. My health is changing, and not for the better.

My wife also wants couples therapy, and like you my feelings have changed. I'm not in love, and feel like a CPN. My point is, I just don't have the energy for couples therapy. My wife is being referred to a program called STEPPS... . and this may go on for 20 weeks.

I think it depends on whether or not you can see yourself staying for the rest of your life, and I know your situation is different because you have children. Myself, I just can't, and I know I'm going to deeply hurt her. I'm still in the house at the moment and it's giving her hope. I'm 40 and I may just be able to rescue a future... .

Think about what happens if the therapy doesn't work - have your kids been subject to your husband's rages?... . the thought now of having a child with my wife fills me with dread. If STEPPS works for her then great... . but if I stay and it doesn't work, the cycles will continue.

All the best

desperatehubby

[Saffron2]

I can relate to feeling more like a community support worker than a wife, and the feeling tired because of the constant vigilance. Like you, my feelings for my husband have also changed - I do not feel emotionally connected, and certainly not sexually attracted. Much of the time he behaves like a spoiled, needy toddler, so how could that ever turn me on?

There are a lot of people here with a lot of insight - hopefully one of them will come along and offer you good advice.  I would like to share my marital therapy experience with you - maybe that will help a little bit.

We tried the couples counseling years ago after our marriage went to h*ll. I felt like I was trying so hard to fix everything, and also felt like my husband was just standing around waiting for me to complete the task, much like my then 4 year old would have stood around waiting to be served lunch.  Willing to try anything, it was my brilliant idea to give this a try, so I booked the appointment.  It was a nightmare!  I went with an open mind, willing to address whatever I could about myself to make the marriage work. It seems that hubby went with the intention of making me look like some horrid wife, thus making himself look like a victim who bore no responsibility for the state of our marriage. I swear, he named every moment I'd lost my temper, and every bad decision I'd made over the span of quite a few years in that one 45 minute session, sort of lumping it all together like it had all happened recently.  I was speechless, and ended up leaving the session in tears because I felt like I had just been savagely attacked. It was at that moment that I also began to feel hopeless.  

What this experience taught me is that couples therapy is only a good idea if there are two people who are willing to work on themselves, accepting full responsibility when necessary, then following through to make necessary changes.  This isn't usually a strong suit for a PDd individual, so I would tend to believe that couples counseling wouldn't make sense until the person with the PD was treated.  That being said, your H is in therapy.  Has he made much progress?  Since the treatment for BPD is rather intense, is it possible that working on the marriage could overwhelm him right now? Is it possible to get feedback from his psychologist about whether or not this would be a good idea?

[PeppermintTea]

Hi desparatehubby and saffron2. Thank you so much for replying to me.

desparatehubby - I hear you about needing to have the strength  and endurance to go through couples therapy. I'm 32 and I keep having these thoughts of - "leave while you're young enough and not completely broken, leave while the children are small".  But then I feel that if I leave he will spiral completely down (he took an overdose last year and has spoken about wishing he did a better job etc so I expect if I ended it he would try again).

He is short tempered with the children and not very tolerant of them at all. I never leave them with him. He is at home all day and I work 4 days per week but when I'm at work the children are either at nursery or their grandparents. He has raged at them once and I told him to leave. He did but for various reasons I allowed him back (promises, changed behaviour which quickly reverted back to normal etc).

We don't really shout and argue as I avoid it. We have had one big argument in which I shouted and slammed doors and told him exactly wha I though of him. I don't feel good about it now but at the time I just couldn't keep it in any longer. That's the only time we've really had a major argument though.

Sex is a major issue to him but for me it would just be nice to get it back but it's not high on my list of things to improve on right now. I thought maybe couples counselling to try to explain how I feel about it because he is truely not getting it at the moment. However I see what you mean - he may not be able to cope at the moment and also I might not cope if he starts listing all my failings.

desparatehubby you sound a ery strong person to have made the decison you have and to be slowly implementing it even though it is difficult. Where did you find that strength to make a change? What support do you get from anywhere else? Sorry you don't have to answer if you don't want to I'm just curious and looking for ideas that I could also use... .

PT xx

[PeppermintTea]

saffron2 I thought H was making progress but now I'mnot so sure.

When therapy first started he went through a very positive 2 weeks identifying behaviours he would like to work on and also identifying new thought processes that might help. It was a joy to hear.

Now all that seems to be gone. He has reverted right back to how he was  a year ago and doesn't seem motivated to change. He goes to therapy but I have no idea what he does and how it is supposed to help. His psychologist won't speak to me about it.

I have no idea what to do now. I want to stay because he gives me glimpses of this person I really like but most of the time I see a person I strongly dislike. If I leave then the person I really like is probably never going to resurface and I will lose that forever.More importantly my children will lose a lot of time with that person because he is unlikely to be able to function at the current level (and I would have serious misgvings about unsupervised access)

He is much worse since we had children - obviuosly because I never would have had children with him if I had known he could be like this. 

How can I stop his mood and frustration dictating the mood of the whole house (we live in a very small house)? A question I ask myself all the time!


PT

[desperatehubby]

Hi pepperminttea

I think for me, the realisation of being 40, and knowing that my health has suffered has lead me to make the decision, but I'm still here... . still feeling guilty... . worrying about how she will cope. She will no doubt try to overdose again.

My wife and I can't have children for various reasons, and maybe it's a blessing in disguise... . maybe I could be a dad elsewhere.

I've tried being in the house and it's giving her hope. I will have to go... . at the moment the only way I can gain strength is to keep reminding myself that I dont want to be ill again... . and that there could be a brave new life out there for me.

You are still young too

desperatehubby x

[PeppermintTea]

I think part of my problem is just a massive amount of guilt and feeling responsible.

This is my house so if I end it he will have to move out.

He has no friends and has estranged his family so he will be homeless. In effect I will be putting him onto the street. But he is a grown man of 42 - if his continued behaviour has led to me asking him to leave that is not my fault. In my ok moments I know this but in my scared and guilty moments I feel as though it's my fault.

In general I think I am a kind and caring, generous person - but ending a relationship with the father of my children and making him homeless in the process doesn't feel very kind or generous. But things staying the way they are is likely to make me crazy or ill.

If I end it and he goes he is unlikely to be around for the girls. Is it better that they have him here where, ok he may not be functioning very well but he is here and they can see him and sit on his lap / read stories / etc every day, rather than him not be here and they rarely see him / he becomes even more unstable? I really don't know the answer. My parents are divorced. My dad brought us up and we saw our mum every fortnight - it worked ok but we hurt at the time they split up. The difference is that my mum (the absent parent) made sure to have a stable, regular relationship with us. H is unlikely to be able to accomplish that as a single person.

I just don't know what to do for the best and it hurts a lot.

Feeling sorry for myself tonight  :'(

[desperatehubby]

The guilt is a massive problem, I have to keep telling myself I'm not responsible for my uBPDw actions... . and why should I feel guilty for trying to maintain the rest of my life.

My wife has also estranged herself from her family. And doesn't work either.

I'm the one that pays the mortgage and worked 2 jobs to keep us afloat... . whilst putting up with rages.

And I would want to buy her out... . but I worry where she will go. When I ended it last week she refused to go to her parents after being released from hospital... the hospital told her to go to a homeless shelter... . I couldn't let her do it. Guilt is a massive problem and I have to break the cycle. My wife is a grown woman of 38, and like your husband has mainly acted like a demanding child for most of the marriage.

[GreenTea]

PT and DH: I am in the exact same boat as you. My H has never been formally diagnosed, but has been twice diagnosed with major depression which he denies and rages about the few times that I've brought it up and its affects on us. We live overseas, and it is because of my job that we have housing. We also have a D6. Things came to a head this past week, and I told him it was over. Anyway, I got out the separation agreement and started to fill it out. He then turned a 180 and was loving and desperately trying to talk things out. He went to bed, and the next morning carried on as if nothing had happened even making plans to spend the day as a family. We did go through a separation of 3 months last year. That didn't make much of a difference though. Friends and family have both made comments that he hasn't hit his brick wall yet and they were sure that would have done it. He went to counseling then and we went together that summer. He now brings things up that they specifically said to him, but twists it so that those were things that I'm supposed to be responsible for changing as if they said those things to me. AAAGGGHH!

Guilt on my part is huge too. He has also isolated himself from family and friends saying that he doesn't like being around people like I do. Actually he has stated many times how much he hates people and they just get in the way. He just got a job recently but if I go through with this separation, he will have to quit and move back to the States to no job and to no home. I also feel for our daughter as I never wanted her to be in a single parent home. But at the same time I don't want her thinking that it's OK or normal for a 40 year old man to whine, complain, and throw a fit every time something doesn't go according to his liking. AND we are both under stress living with this. My sanity can not take much more. I desperately want peace for all of us. Going through with a permanent separation which will most likely lead to divorce is the only thing I haven't tried. That at least will give us temporary peace. I worry about custody as we'll be living on the other side of the world from each other. And then, I can see myself slipping back into the peacekeeping role. For me, since I've already started the paperwork, I'm at the point right now, to just go ahead and go through with it. I just don't know if I have the strength to deal with his reactions when he realizes I am not playing and the unknown (custody, have I really made the best decision, etc)... .  

[GreenMango]

PT it sounds like your husband is doing the therapy.  Is it dbt?

There's many members that come here thinking the diagnosis is the holy grail.  And if the person starts therapy things will be better.  Sometimes its said thugs get worse before they get better.  And they can get better but like you mentioned its a serious time commitment.

One part of therapy could be the family component.  How you are handling this next chapter etc.  Do you have a therapist?  It takes it toll trying to adjust to the change.

Ps I get not feeling attracted to him right now its hard to feel it when you've spent a long time dealing with the bad parts.  If you decide to hang in there be kind to yourself and its okay to need to see some change before your feelings will change.

It might be a good idea to read some posts by Steph in the staying board about how treatment went for her husband and all the things she was wrestling with.  They are still together.

[PeppermintTea]

Hi greenmango,

Thanks for replying to me.

Do you know I have really no idea what kind of therapy my H is in.

He has always had periods of very black depression, anger and destructive impulses. For many years he was treated for depression and anxiety. Then he was diagnosed Bipolar - but non of the meds worked on him. He attempted an overdose and at that point they decided he was more likely to be Borderline Personality disordered than Bipolar.

He had several months of individual weekly sessions with a psychologist but the aim of this was 'to prepare him to start group psychology sessions'. He has now started the group psychology. With the NHS it is a bit difficult - you kind of take what your given really. His psychologist won't speak to me about him so I don't know if he is getting DBT or something else. I can  only assume that as he has been diagnosed BPD that he is getting treatment they deem to be useful for that. I don't know if DBT is ever done in a group setting though? My understanding on reading a little about it was that it is usually an individual thing is that right?

I think I will make an appointment to see my Doctor and ask about NHS psychological services that maybe I could access. I tried some very generalist counselling sessions through a national charity here but to be honest although I found it good to be able to talk to someone outside the family it didn't help that much and it was only 12 sessions.

I don't know what to do to be kind to myself at the moment. I would like space away from H but I am aware (he has told me) that if he moves out then that's it no going back.

I'm really struggling at the moment with his lack of empathy and lack of ability to think about my needs. He really can't see the connections between his behaviour and my reactions.

For instance he says "you never talk to me anymore or share your feelings. We not close like we used to be". I take this on board and acknowledge that I could do things differently. So then I try to work on this. I was sitting outside and he came to join me we were just having a cup of tea. I said "I was thinking I would really like to take down this old shed and make a nice walled garden in this spot" - I never even got to finish my thought before I got told I couldn't do it and he wasnt' going to do it for me and had  I thought about drainage and the bricks couldn't be reused and why do I keep thinking about the future... .

So I sadly told him I was just voicing my aspirations and dreams and went inside. That was yesterday, we haven't spoken since. This is not an isolated incident - a few weeks ago I tried to talk about a possible holiday and got a similar response,  I tried to share an opportunity that came up at work and got the same thing - immediate cut down.

And yet he makes no connection between his responses and the fact that I share less and less with him.

I really can't win because if I just go ahead and do things ie make my walled garden by myself (which I absolutely can do), or just take the work opportunity and tell him afterwards, then he says I don't include him.

Would therapy help me to deal with this - I truly don't think it's unreasonable to expect my H to show some enthusiasm and encouragement about things which are important to me? Maybe it is though. I think I've lost the ability to know what is a reasonnable on my part.

In conclusion I see you are right and I probably do need therapy of my own  :'(

PT

[Surnia]

PT

Yes, T sessions for you would be a good start. 

Couple counseling on the other side can be a huge trigger, many members had very difficult times through couple counseling.

About being kind to yourself: Yes, this is sometimes easier said than done. Is your energy generally very low right now?

[GreenMango]

I agree with Surnia.  The therapy for you can help.  At the very least it can help wrap you wrap your head around the behavior and what to do.  not the couples counseling yet.

I'm really sorry he isn't connecting the dots.  That's a huge issue many of us here have mentioned at one time or another.

Dbt has a group component, and an individual component.  It may be what he's in and since you mentioned the time committment.

As he's started this therapy it may help you to start work on the communication tools from the staying board.  The whole point to his therapy is relearning and coping with normal interactions in the real world.  Holding your tongue and not communicating needs to change.

All this is going to be a big change for you too.  Facing the fears of communicating your needs based on his old responses and bejavior, and changing your approach.  The staying board has a saying nothing changes without changes.  And you are ready to leave so what's to lose?

Check out the staying board lessons.  Do you see the ones about validation, SET and Dearman?  Do those seem like something you would try to work in?

Baby steps.  Be nice to you=baths, movies, hanging with friends, anything that makes your life easier through this hard time.

[desperatehubby]

Just wanted to say Hi to Green Tea... . only just had a chance to reply on this thread as have been staying with a friend for the weekend...

[PeppermintTea]

Thanks folks 

Surnia to tell you the truth my energy levels are actually pretty good when I'm at work or it's just me and the girls, or me and the girls and friends... . it's only low when I'm at home with H. This is the biggest issue for me... . H wants to be connected with me and a part of my life but his daily behaviour means I don't want to spend my time with him. He then feels this as rejection no matter how I try to explain it. ALso he thinks I should love him unconditionally the same way that I love the girls - I have told him this is not how an adult 'romantic' relationship works but he doesn't believe me.

We are supposed to be going to stay with friends next weekend and I'm debating whether to ask him if he will stay at home and let me and the girls go by ourselves. I know that would hurt him though... . and sometimes he behaves better in company but not always (and it would be v embarrassing if he kicked off in their home as this is my friend from my school days - someone I've known nearly all my life).

It's really been helpful to write this all down and get replies so thank you all

PT XX

[desperatehubby]

oh I know what the worry of that is like

a grown person, and you worry if going to family/friends that someone will 'say' something or 'give a look'... . or not 'offer enough drinks' or 'ignore/exclude' them... . and they will have a child like temper tantrum.

always having to think so far ahead

it's draining and no way to live