no contact order, CAS involved, help

[allblameonme]

hello

I just posted a long intro at the intro forum.

Read that to get a picture into my nightmare.

My wife possibly has BPD. She has all the symptoms. She is in denial right now and tells CAS and my psychiatrist that I am the one with all the problems. My psychiatrist has gotten to the point where he sees I'm not the main issue here. He wants to start mediating between us having us both come  in, but needs to get permission from CAS. The worker is on vacation now for another week.

  I have a meeting with the worker for the 'mens group' in CAS this week. I met him 2 times. He seems to be sure he knows me and keeps talking about my abusive behaviour. He talks about it with such zeal that I start to believe him! Maybe breathing is abusive? The one good point he told me was that in all situations we are responsible for our behaviour and reactions.

  Sadly I have not been able to connect with him on a real level, so I'm just "playing the game" making up stuff about me being abusive to make him think I'm accepting responsibility... . Its so weird.

   I am wondering since we have our third meeting this week, is there any way I can speak the truth with him? Whenever I have tried to speak the truth in the past, they say I'm not taking responsibility for my behaviour. It is so frustrating because they won't listen to anything I have to say, but have no proof of me doing anything wrong! Its like my wife says something, that is the fact and if I deny it, I am in denial and not accepting responsibility. Its a catch 22. The only way out is to pretend I am abusive and want help. But that doesn't solve anything because my wife is still going to be the same person, but now ULTRA powerful in terms of controlling and manipulating me. She created this illusion and CAS are forcing me into that illusion and even when they eventually go away because they have no facts to base anything on, my wife will still be there and will use all this stuff against me to control me. She already said once, several months ago "you better get used to doing whatever I want because I can always just call the police on you and say you hit me and they will take you to jail" !


  So I am not walking on eggshells, I'm walking on mines. Big ones.

Need some help please!

[sunshine40]

So you are saying that you might as well keep digging the pit that you're in.

STUPID idea.

Since you ARE responsible for your actions, I would request a new CAS if at all possible and start with the truth, including owning up to anything you may have SLIGHTLY done wrong, however you do not have to OWN anything projected onto you. That is something you chose to do. Start over even if it is with the same people. Maybe your therapist  could give an insight to these people as well.

Don't keep digging your own grave.

[Matt]

First, talk with your lawyer, and make sure you know exactly what the rules are for CAS - whether you are obligated to meet with them, if you have to say anything or just sit there, and if they can testify against you.

Then make a list of all the things you have said to CAS or anyone else which are false - anything you have admitted to which you didn't actually do.

The next time you speak to them, read the list, and make it clear that you did not do any of those things.  "I said I did that because you insisted, but after thinking about it I realized it would be best to tell the truth.  I did not do that."

If they push back in any way, make it clear that you will not sit still to be accused of stuff you didn't do.  "You weren't there, and neither you nor anyone else has any evidence that I did that.  I will say one more time, that is false - I did not do that.  If you continue to accuse me of stuff I didn't do, I will end this session and speak with my lawyer about it."

Can the CAS people do anything to hurt you?  If so, you should probably talk with your lawyer about that, and be prepared to defend yourself and hold them accountable legally.  In most US states, it's against the law to make false accusations;  once you have stated the truth, then if they make any further accusations they may be liable for that.  Your lawyer should tell you what options you might have in that case.

If there are things you did, that you shouldn't have, it's usually best to take responsibility for them.  But under these circumstances, I would not admit to anything which could possibly be used against me in court.  If those issues come up - "Mr. Sunshine, have you ever done X?" - I think you should be prepared to handle that without admitting anything - "I don't feel safe discussing that with you." or something like that.  :)on't be bullied into saying anything which isn't in your interest - they have shown they are not going to treat you fairly so don't trust them any more.  Repeat yourself if you have to, and then if they persist, end the session - "You are repeating yourself and this isn't productive, so I will leave now."

Many men try to cooperate with people like this, and it comes back to hurt - men take plea agreements, admitting to stuff they didn't do, because they are told it will only mean going to anger-management classes or something like that.  Then they find out that it means a criminal conviction and anybody can find that on the internet;  an end to their career;  and loss of custody.  Then if there are more accusations they may be presumed guilty and convicted of stuff they didn't do.  Don't fall for it.

[ForeverDad]

Sadly I have not been able to connect with him on a real level, so I'm just "playing the game" making up stuff about me being abusive to make him think I'm accepting responsibility... .

Its a catch 22. The only way out is to pretend I am abusive and want help.

Actually, that could very likely be self-sabotaging.  For example, if you later try to set the record straight, then all they have to do is look back in their records and and say, "Whatever you say now, you admitted to it before so we can't trust what you deny now."  In other words, comments angling for 'plea deals' are for wrongdoers, not innocent people.  Besides, as Matt commented, plea deals always have the perp admitting guilt even if to a lesser offense.  The danger there is that once you admit guilt to make a plea deal, it can't be undone, no appeals.

You found out you can't appease your spouse with sucking up, contrived confessions or distractions.  What makes you think it will work with CAS?

First, talk with your lawyer, and make sure you know exactly what the rules are for CAS - whether you are obligated to meet with them, if you have to say anything or just sit there, and if they can testify against you... .

If there are things you did, that you shouldn't have, it's usually best to take responsibility for them.  But under these circumstances, I would not admit to anything which could possibly be used against me in court.

Many men try to cooperate with people like this, and it comes back to hurt - men take plea agreements, admitting to stuff they didn't do, because they are told it will only mean going to anger-management classes or something like that.  Then they find out that it means a criminal conviction and anybody can find that on the internet;  an end to their career;  and loss of custody.  Then if there are more accusations they may be presumed guilty and convicted of stuff they didn't do.  Don't fall for it.

Therefore beware what you admit to.  Admit to only the truth, at most, and even then speak carefully and ONLY the topics and events that have your lawyer's approval.

And even then you don't have to divulge anything negative about yourself.  For example, "I grabbed her arms to stop her after she kept hitting me." may be 100% truthful but all that is given attention is, "I grabbed her arms... . "  See?  Also, isn't there a Fifth Amendment, you don't have to testify against yourself?

The others are correct, a lot hangs in the balance here... . the allegations made by your spouse, your future parenting, your hopes for future custody, future allegations by your spouse.  Playing the game does not work in legal scenarios, everyday common sense does not mean much in courts.

Even the workers there are slightly puzzled saying I am a great father they do not understand how this has happened... .

It is things like that that you MUST get into your record!  Rather than playing along and agreeing how bad you are - a disastrous and negative strategy - have your CAS officials talk with the supervision people and let them hear for themselves how your visits are exemplary.

Sadly, your case sounds very similar to mine, though I never got to the point of enduring supervised visitation.  My ex was equally demeaning, insulting, blaming, retaliatory, etc, etc.  I finally realized I could never reason with unreason.  The only time she agreed with me was when she wanted something or she was trying to look good. It took several months to come to that realization.  When we separated, she was arrested for making death threats (I recorded them  ) and so she made only one DV claim against me and that was years later.  Instead she made endless child abuse allegations, all with the goal to block my parenting, which very nearly worked but over the months and years the professionals have figured out who the problem parent is.  To this day she still causes problems but now it's more like an annoying dog nipping my ankles rather than a wolf at my throat.

Did you get the point?  You can't trust your entire future and your children's futures on a faint wisp of a hope that your spouse may wake up and be normal some day.  Recovery is a very long process, not an event, and around here recovery from such extreme behaviors rarely ever happen.  Accept who and what she is, as she is.  Sad, but that's your only option at this point.

Please, stop sabotaging yourself, see what the reality of your situation is and start building several positive strategies to rescue yourself and your children in the years to come.

You mentioned a friend who said to be nice and maybe she'll be nice back to you later on.  I'm not saying that won't happen, but you sure can't hang your entire future on "a hope and a prayer".  Deal with what IS.  And even if she does later try to make nice, the odds are high she will quickly revert to her norms once she gets what she wants and you'll be back in the doghouse again and again.  Get off the roller coaster.

[DreamGirl]

Do you have an attorney? Do you want the divorce?

Does the no contact order expire? Was there a specific incident that happened that it was granted? Is it just no contact for her? or are the kids named in it as well?

When there is a false accusation (or an exaggerated one), the professionals involve can usually recognize (and appreciate) when a parent goes thru the motions to vindicate themselves.

It's a pain and it's not very fair - but they have to be vigilant in making sure the kiddos are safe. Supervised visitation is a great place to show what a wonderful father you are when you show up consistently, on time, and focus on the kids throughout the visit. They will recommend unsupervised visitation if you can prove that the conflict between your ex and yourself is not a priority to you and that the children are.

I'm so sorry this is happening to you.

[Matt]

Besides, as Matt commented, plea deals always have the perp admitting guilt even if to a lesser offense.  The danger there is that once you admit guilt to make a plea deal, it can't be undone, no appeals.

Yes - this is a key point.

It's like falling dominoes.  First they get you to agree to the CAS process (or maybe you had no choice).  Then they tell you it's important to "take responsibility", and you go along to get along.  Then they use that to bully you into a plea agreement, which means you are stating on the public record that you committed the crime(s).  Then once you sign the plea agreement - as ForeverDad says - you can no longer appeal it or change your story - ever.  In my state, and others too I think, once you sign a plea agreement it cannot be undone - ever.

So you need to stop these dominoes from falling, and put the ones that have fallen back up.  Anything you have admitted, which isn't true, make that clear as soon as possible and consistently from now on.  Say clearly why you said you did stuff you didn't do - maybe it's that your lawyer told you to (but of course if your false statements lead to problems it will be you paying the price, not him).  Or maybe it's that the CAS people bullied you, or whatever.  Whatever happened, do what you can do to fix it as soon as possible, before all the dominoes have fallen.

[allblameonme]

wow lots of good advice here.

Thank Gd I have a working brain and lots of what you guys said I've already been doing. I do not admit to anything and everything IS allegations that are baseless! I simply admitted to the 'mens group' arrogant guy that I realize I am responsible for my behaviour and on a few occasions I said hurtful things like "Your just like your mother"... . Honestly this could be turned into a really funny comedy movie because its so crazy of a situation.

When I ask the worker what the problem is she says "We have concerns". No matter how much probing she won't say more... .

In the affidavit they tried to say im bipolar, my psychiatrist wrote a letter right away saying "He does not have the symptoms of bi-polar."

What is funny about this is that all the names in the affidavit are people who earlier in the year I was asking myself to help us out my wife is nuts. They were such feminists that it was impossible for them to believe my wife was anything except perfect and when I saw that I always called them on their BS. I was very roadblock to all their attempts to control us early on... . So when it came time for CAS to launch an attack, the affidavit is full of those 2 or 3 people saying bad things about me like "irrational thinking"... . ", "grandiose thinking" LOL... .

My wifes friend who lives in a different country even called in some BS... . My wife now says "She didnt say anything bad about my husband", but its written there in the affidavit! Complete lies... . saying I kicked my wife out of the house and slammed the door almost hurting her fingers and she was "bruised up"... . What the heck? She was not even in the same country and there is no way any of that even happened! I recall telling my wife when she was acting nutzo to go out for a drive for a few hours because she was being very rude and hurtful... . She said she was scared and ran out of the house to protect herself... . Wow... . Complete lies... .

   In our affidavit my lawyer (yes i have one), said its all allegations and not true. CAS told my wife she must go and file for criminal charges, but she couldnt do it because SHE KNEW SHE WAS LYING. In the end they threatened to take the kids away from her if she didnt so she tried and the police told her they are not filing charges because she just wants to... . Thank GD FOR THAT!

   What do you guys think about this based on what you said above?

Tomorrow when I meet the arrogant guy for the mens group (thinks he knows it all and met me 2 times briefly), I'm going to tell him "the last time we met it was a great insight for me about that idea of taking responsibility for our behaviour even when we are angry, no free ticket to hurt-back if you are getting hurt. However, after reading many books, articles, lectures on the subject and reading dictionary definitions (I will bring a couple with me... ) abuse is defined by the repeated attempts at verbally hurting someone - I did not do that. It was a cycle of verbal abuse with my wife attacking me emotionally non-stop, me trying to control myself until I just couldnt take it and said something back to her. As a result of this, and a lot of thinking I am not sure if you are able to help me if I can't trust you to be honest, and you do not take responsibility for this reality I am telling you. What you can help me with is how to deal with a very emotionally hurt wife who tries to constantly hurt me - in a positive way that doesnt lead to cycles of verbal battles. That would genuinely be helpful as I want to be the best father and husband I can be, but with my wife hurting me all the time, and then raising the bar to getting CAS and others involved in the attacks against me I do not see how you can help me. I can't like and pretend I am something I'm not. I am a kind person who let myself get verbally assaulted until no one could take it... I need to work on setting boundaries and disengaging when my wife throws toxins in my direction. That I am very motivated to work on."

  I am iffy about it, because maybe he will  say "You are not taking responsibility." "you are trying to blame others" "you are  _____"... .

Also I am taking a new job that means I work nonstop from 8am - 6pm. That means I won't be able to attend any supervised visitations. However I must be able to see my  children. I think this can be a good way for my lawyer to pressure them to either own up, or drop the punishments. I can see my children at 6:30 - 7:30 at someone in the neighbourhood no problem, but they may want to keep pretending there are problems... .

   My lawyer told the CAS worker at court last time, he has handled hundreds of cases, but has never seen such a severe attack against a husband without any evidence and only based on allegations that won't hold up at trial. She said "we have concerns"... . I said what concern? That I'm breathing?

AAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

[allblameonme]

OH about the no contact order I'm not sure about it. CAS made it up. The judge so far just sits there not really doing anything - everything has been happening directly from CAS. They said no direct/indirect contact between me and my wife, and no attempts to see children outside of CAS supervised visits. My wife must call CAS and police if I attempt to do either... .

  I was weak last week and actually tried to knock on the door on sunday morning really wanted to see my kids. She called CAS and the police to report it. Can't believe this is supposed to be my 'wife', the one who loves you and is with you until the end... . What a situation

[Matt]

Are you legally obligated to talk to CAS or the men's group?  It's pretty clear their objectives are not yours - why have any further contact with them?

Sometimes we think that if we just say the right thing - make the most logical argument - then the other person will see the wisdom of it and change.  But when they are advocates for a particular point of view - whether their motivation is political or whatever - there is no chance that will happen.

Have you ever heard someone change their political party or religion because of an argument someone else made?  "Oh wow, you're right, I was an X my whole life but now I'll change to Y because of how you explained it to me!"  Never happens.  Similarly, these people are obviously only looking for information to use against you - they are not seeking the truth.  So anything you tell them can and will be used agaist you - potential at your criminal trial.

It's a very common phenomenon!  When I was arrested, first the police cuffed me, "For your own safety", and asked me what happened.  I thought, "If I just tell them exactly what happened, and they won't find any evidence to the contrary, they'll have to let me go."  So I did that.  Made no difference.  The moment my wife made the accusation, it was 100% certain I would be arrested, no matter what I said.  The only possible result of talking to them would be to say something they could use against me.  (It didn't turn out to matter - they knew she was lying and they put that in their report, so the charges were dropped later.)

My point is, in the moment, we want to believe that this is a rational process, and if we explain the truth, we'll be believed.  Not true - that's not how the process works.  And it can be very biased against a man accused of domestic violence - almost any evidence at all - maybe even literally none - can lead to a conviction.

So... . tell me again why you would even consider discussing the matter with someone who is hostile, without your lawyer present?  (And I mean your criminal defense lawyer, not family law.)  If you have a criminal defense lawyer present, he will surely tell you not to say anything;  in fact, he'll probably tell you not to meet with anybody or talk about this at all, unless they charge you with something.

But let's step back a bit.

Is it your goal to fix the marriage?  Or to end it?

What is the purpose of these meetings with the "men's group" and "CAS"?  What are those organizations' purposes?  Are you legally obligated to meet with either of them?

You are playing with fire!

[momtara]

Remember that what you do sets a precedent that can go on for years.  Including supervised visitation, which someone mentioned.  I wouldn't accept those kinds of restraints on seeing your kids, if you are harmless.

I want to say that I feel bad for you and that you will find TONS of people here who are in the same situations - dads whose wives made false claims about them.

I agree with the others; don't admit to abuse.  The fact that you are just admitting to saying a few bad things, I guess that's ok, but be careful - they can take things out of context.

It is very frustrating and scary at the beginning.  Get free consultations from a few lawyers and document everything.  This CAS person sounds biased or just sucked in by your wife.  He should know better.  

Hang in there.  This is a hard time but it will get easier.

[Matt]

Just to be clear... .

If there is anything about yourself, or your behavior, that you want to improve, that is to be admired.  I'm not saying "We men are perfect and nobody should criticize us!".

But it should be done in private, talking with a professional in confidence.  You should confirm that nothing you say will ever be shared within anyone - period.

I saw a counselor for three years, and it helped me a lot.  I told him whatever he asked, and whatever I thought would be good to discuss, which included a lot of stuff I'm not proud of - areas I needed help with.  It was super-helpful to have a professional, caring person I could tell everything, without fear that it would be used against me.

That's way different from how these organizations - the "men's group" and "CAS" sound - they sound like they are working against you and you're playing into their hands.

[ForeverDad]

OH about the no contact order I'm not sure about it. CAS made it up. The judge so far just sits there not really doing anything - everything has been happening directly from CAS. They said no direct/indirect contact between me and my wife, and no attempts to see children outside of CAS supervised visits. My wife must call CAS and police if I attempt to do either... .

Many judges profess not to know much about the details of a case.  They rely heavily on the lawyers and agencies and evaluators to present their information, conclusions and recommendations.  So focus now on turning around the perception that CAS workers have about you.  Make sure they talk with the supervision staff that are impressed with your parenting even though the visits are so limited.  Sadly, the agencies assume the allegations are true, you have to demonstrate how false they are.  You can't wait for CAS to ferret out the truth, not while you have someone trying to bury you as a dangerous or abusive father.

Remember this is temporary, this is an observation period, likely in time they will submit their observations and recommendations to the court.  So abide by their rules.  The quicker they see you are a reasonably normal person and parent, the sooner they'll realize something stinks about those claims by your spouse.

I was weak last week and actually tried to knock on the door on sunday morning really wanted to see my kids. She called CAS and the police to report it.

Bad move.  I can understand it.  Back when I first separated and I had been blocked from my preschooler I too felt an almost irresistible urge driving me to go to her door and knock to see my child.  What stopped me?  The crystal clear awareness that she was now fighting against me and if I went there I KNEW she would call 911 and the police would come rushing and I would likely be carted away.  For my son, I couldn't risk that.  She totally blocked all father-son contact, I didn't see or even talk to my preschooler for over 3 months.  The worst days of my life.  I had to wait for the court to set a schedule.  (That was some 7 years ago - over time I was increasingly seen as the cooperative parent and after 5 years I finally became the legal guardian in 2011. 

Your goal now is:

• Present yourself as the best father, spouse and person possible.  You don't have to be perfect, just reasonably normal.



• Undo past false admissions of guilt.  Admitting you're not perfect is okay, no one is perfect or reacts perfectly all the time.  But "admitting" you did wrong when you didn't is NOT okay.



• Get a strategy, make reasonable and progressive goals.  If you can't afford to retain a lawyer, at least get several consultations that are free or relatively inexpensive.  Experienced lawyers will help you to focus on the next steps, reasonable goals and strategies to get you there, even if you don't hire them.



• Cooperate with the current orders but always seek ways to have more and more parenting.



• Accept that the marriage is over.  Ponder this, what can she possibly do to undo what she has done?  Even if she retracted all her allegations with police, CAS, court and all the other professionals and agencies, there is nothing to stop her from doing it to you all over again later the next time she gets angry with you and feels she wants to punish you or make you a minor footnote in the children's lives.

Can't believe this is supposed to be my 'wife', the one who loves you and is with you until the end... . What a situation

I can't state this strongly enough... . get over the fact that this is supposed to be your wife and the contradictory clueless thoughts that "she loves you".  Something is wrong here... .

Either (1) you are dangerous or (2) you're being actively and heartlessly portrayed as dangerous... . one or the other, which is it?  Or to take an old proverb, one of you is a wolf wrapped in sheep skin... . which of you is it?

If you're not dangerous and she's portraying you as dangerous then she does NOT love you.  Accept that reality.  What lover would purposely attack you and virtually beat you when you're down?  Once you have made that paradigm shift from dazed confusion to objective clarity you will be able to handle this situation better both emotionally and strategically.  Unless and until you do that, she will remain in control and able to repeatedly pull your strings to her heart's content.

[allblameonme]

Wow thanks guys. Its really hard for me to swallow that I will be stuck in the world of hell of being divorced and fighting for custody.

For the record: there are no nor have there ever been any criminal charges against me. There is nothing to use against me now. No doctor or police record has ever said anything bad about me. 100% allegations.

Also I have a lawyer, and he is trying to help. CAS said that if we try to approach the court and dont do what they say, they will try to make my life hell, with no access at all until psych eval etc, do whatever they can to make me suffer. My lawyer said we can try to present the case, but if we lose you will be in a worse situation for some time... . He said the best route is to collect as much evidence to disprove them as possible and present it at the next case conference on Sept 16th.

I have a psych eval i'm looking forward to on Sept 10th. Cant wait till I do that and shove it down their throats!

  My wife cannot take responsibility for anything she does. She has this problem (uBPD I guess) where she cannot connect her actions, to my actions. She can abuse me all day, if I flip out and yell - it was just out of the blue.

   That is probably the most crazy making aspect of this. She cannot connect her actions and behaviours to my behaviours. If she only could, she would realize ... . hmm when I yell at my husband and treat him like garbage all day, he gets upset, maybe I should try to control myself? Noo that is just WAY too hard for her to do!

  You guys are obviously right looking at it objectively without emotions, my wife is just full of hate, no room for love... . I need to accept that reality and act accordingly. If something changes I can approach the reality and how it changes as it changes, but I must accept that my wife is just full of hate.

  I had this idea, not sure if its a good one... . I can validate her emotions and put the past behind us, and whenever I would finally be allowed to be part of the family again, I would wait patiently for her to have an episode (shouldnt be more than a few hours... ) and start recording it. After a few recorded episodes of her insane behaviour, I would take the kids and go to my fathers house and then do the smartest action at that point, either contact the police to report her abusive behaviour, a divorce lawyer or who knows at this point. The goal would be to finally have her at a safe distance from the children with proof of her abuse so she cannot wiggle her way out of her and force her to face the reality of her behaviour. No one would be able to argue and I would set a precedent of being a responsible father who protected the children from her and moved out. At that point would it be fair to say since I would be with the children and would have recorded proof of her abuse, I would be able to stay with teh children in the interm and file for divorce with the keys as status quo being in my care and insist it remain that way until she gets help?

[GaGrl]

Your wife is having a psych evaluations done also, right?  If not, you MUST insist that both of you have the eval.

[Matt]

Good discussion - I'm sure this is helpful to other members who are reading and may have similar situations... .

Some more thoughts.

Allblame, please do not be too comfortable because there haven't been any criminal charges against you.  That's very good news - usually the charges are made pretty soon, so it's unlikely there will be charges related to stuff that happened in the past.  But if you are labeled as an abuser, it can have lots of bad affects.  And if at any time someone makes a new accusation, the old stuff - even if it's 100% baloney - can and will be used against you.  They will say, "See, he's done it before!".  So it's critical that you handle this stuff very carefully, and don't let anything false stick.

I want to disagree slightly with FD's statement, "If you're not dangerous and she's portraying you as dangerous then she does NOT love you."  It's kind of a trap.  At any given moment, she might "love" you - if we even know what that word means.  And ten minutes later she might hate you, or might hate herself, and the accusations could start again.  Trying to figure out how her mind works is not a good idea - it's good to read and discuss and learn - but if you base your actions on figuring out whether she "loves" you or not, you're likely to drive yourself nuts, and make some bad decisions.

Of course I agree completely with FD's suggested goals and strategies - exactly how you need to think - with your brain not your heart.

One thing to discuss with your lawyer is psych evals.  CAS seems to be threatening you with that.  It may be best to call their bluff.  I filed a motion with the family court to have a Custody Evaluator appointed - a Ph.D. psychologist who administered objective psych evals to both parents.  Best thing I ever did.  My stbX was diagnosed - and I want to emphasize this was based on objective evaluations - "tests" - not just talking with both parties - she was diagnosed with BPD and some other stuff, and that got the attention of everybody involved, including her attorney.  For the first time, it was very clear to all involved that she had a problem, and that they should not take what she said at face value.

Be prepared for your psych eval to come back with something.  Almost everybody's does.  Mine indicated high risk for addiction, and I had to deal with that, but it wasn't a problem because I just took it at face value, and took the recommended steps.  And that made a sharp contrast with my wife, who denied the diagnosis and refused therapy - even after the court ordered it.

So I guess what I'm saying is that it may be a better strategy to shine the light of day on all the issues - both parties' mental health, and behavior, and all the accusations - get them all out in the open with as much information as possible, including objective psych evals.  (But do not agree to psych evals that aren't objective - then it's who tells a better story, not what's real.)

[Matt]

Your wife is having a psych evaluations done also, right?  If not, you MUST insist that both of you have the eval.

Yeah - exactly.  Turn a negative assumption into a positive, by getting both of them done, with objective testing like the MMPI-2.

[ForeverDad]

Your wife is having a psych evaluations done also, right?  If not, you MUST insist that both of you have the eval.

There is no better time than now to get you BOTH of you tested with Psych Evals.  You probably got dinged with that requirement because she made claims against you.  If you get one and she doesn't, then it may be harder later to get her evaluated.

If she hasn't been told she has to do a psych eval too, how do you get that to happen?  Ask lawyer.  If they only require a psych eval when a complaint has been received, do you have to make a counter complaint with specific incidents against her to CAS to get them to take a look at her?  (Remember, they focus on behaviors, generally not some non-professional's claim of a suspected disorder.*  While they may look at spousal/adult behaviors, they give far more attention to parenting behaviors.)

* As an example that a diagnosis has limited impact in family court:  Imagine someone is diagnosed an alcoholic.  Sounds bad, right?  Well, what it the person has stopped the behavior - drinking to intoxication - then how actionable is it?  If no drinking or no drinking to excess then would that diagnosis limit that person from parenting?  That's why courts focus on the behaviors and behavior patterns, a diagnostic name is less impactful.  The behaviors are what really impact the children, the parenting and the marriage.

My ex was never diagnosed, yet over time the professionals saw the difference between us.  My court didn't order my ex to change, didn't even try, court dealt with us as we are.

[Matt]

Your wife is having a psych evaluations done also, right?  If not, you MUST insist that both of you have the eval.

There is no better time than now to get you BOTH of you tested with Psych Evals.  You probably got dinged with that requirement because she made claims against you.  If you get one and she doesn't, then it may be harder later to get her evaluated.

If she hasn't been told she has to do a psych eval too, how do you get that to happen?  Ask lawyer.  If they only require a psych eval when a complaint has been received, do you have to make a counter complaint with specific incidents against her to CAS to get them to take a look at her?  (Remember, they focus on behaviors, generally not some non-professional's claim of a suspected disorder.  While they may look at spousal/adult behaviors, they give far more attention to parenting behaviors.)

How it worked in my case - could be different in different states - is that I didn't have to make any accusations.  My wife had already accused me of violence and that had been disproved, and I did emphasize that this behavior - false accusations - was evidence of a problem.  And I said that our marriage counselor told me she believed my wife had BPD - not a diagnosis but a professional's opinion.  But it didn't turn on a finding that either of us had a problem, or even that either of us probably had a problem.

The logic we presented was, "There are problems in this family, or we wouldn't be getting a divorce.  To figure out what's best for the kids, it will help the court to have all relevant information, including both parents' mental health.  The criteria in our state include both parents' physical and mental health, so let's get that information - objective information - out on the table so both parties and the court can make decisions accordingly."

Your state probably also has criteria for custody - find them online or from your lawyer.  One of them probably says something like "Parents' physical and mental health" - that's why you propose objective psych evals, not because you assume anything about either parent.  That way, you avoid arguing over who has the problem - you're proposing to get the information and it's pretty hard for the other side to say, "No, that information isn't relevant or shouldn't be known."

My wife's lawyer fought over the issue briefly, but gave in pretty quick, because she had no arguments to make, except the cost - $5,000 for the Custody Evaluator, and $500 apiece for the MMPI-2.  (We settled that - I paid the $5,000 but got half back in the settlement, and we each paid for our MMPI-2.)

[allblameonme]

Wow we are getting to the meat here I like it! So we are in Ontario Canada I'm not sure how things work but so far very badly is how they work.

My lawyer said if we push for her to take a psych eval he is worried it will reveal the truth and CAS said do you want us to take the children away? As if to say go prove she is nuts we won't give kids to him and than we will have to take the kids from her. crazy scary! These people are pure evil.

I will ask him about presenting it as you guys said but over my dead body will my super cute young children be forced into foster care!my lawyer thinks best thing is to first completely prove I'm safe and a good parent and with that then we can say she needs an exam and all the truth  will spill out but being already vindicated I could assume the children would be put in my responsible care until she seeks help.


Option 2 is my psychiatrist is coming from the sideline and saying he is requesting permission to meet both my wife and Itoghether so we can work on issues realtime with both parties there. He said with that framework he would be able to make a diagnosis.

Any ideas or recommendations?

[Matt]

So your lawyer is putting forward a strategy, and he should know how things work there - maybe very different from other places.

It may be worth talking with another lawyer or two, to see if that is the only or best strategy.  Specifically, it leaves you on the defensive, to prove you're innocent, and that may be difficult and may take time.  In the meantime, you're buying into your wife's mental health, instead of putting that out on the table to be tested.

Where I live, I would have no concern at all that the kids would be taken away - they can't do that without good reason, and any competent lawyer would give assurances that the kids will stay with the healthier parent unless there is rock-solid proof that neither parent is safe.  But maybe it's different there.

One thing we see fairly often here - in my own case and many other members - is that quite a few lawyers appear to be competent but in fact are losers - they make a living by convincing their clients to lower their expectations, not by meeting their clients' reasonable expectations.  Yours may be one more like that - nice suit but lousy strategy.  (My first lawyer was exactly like that, and it took me a long time - with my friends here saying "Fire him!" - for me to accept that he was a loser, and go find someone better.)

Talking with some other lawyers, you may learn that the playing field there is so tilted that you need to be on the defensive for a while.  Or you may find that your lawyer is a loser and there are others who will fight for you.

One other aspect to be very aware of:  The longer the kids are with the other party, the harder it will be to regain partial or full custody.  Because if the kids are OK - and that standard is probably very low! - the court will be reluctant to change custody later.  So this strategy of proving your innocence, and then later raising doubts about your wife's mental health, may be hard to execute;  quite a bit of time may pass, and the kids may appear to be OK, when in fact they aren't so OK, but there's nothing obviously wrong.  And then the court may say, "Well I guess maybe you aren't an abuser, but the kids seem to be doing fine, so let's leave them in their mother's care."  And then, years later, after being in the care of someone with an untreated psychological disorder, they will be at very high risk - kids raised by someone with a psych disorder are at much higher risk for depression, substance abuse, and lots more - but it will be too late to raise them in a healthy home.

So in talking with your attorney - and others I hope - there should be a sense of urgency, and a recognition that if you don't act fast, it will be much harder to succeed later.

[allblameonme]

Hey I completely am on board with you. I think my lawyer is a nice guy but doesn't seem confident in general. Problem is I have legal aid so once you choose a lawyer with legal aid its really hard to switch. I'm really not familiar with lawyers in general I don't know if its right to just go try other ones. What if another lawyer talks tough and seems clear with a plan but after the hard process which may not succeed even to switch and he gets shot down hard and I'm in trouble. As I wrote that I said to myself why is it so hard to just bring the truth out? The system here is very screwed up CAS has literally unlimited power even above court as judge always  follows their recommendations. Its a bad system here. I told my lawyer about her getting a psych eval mentioning that point you mentioned about it being in some law in your state he said sadly we have no such law here.

I am getting a little annoyed by his lack of ability to fight. Dunno if he is taking the smart path or the don't wanna take a risk path... . If I were to even consider another lawyer I would need to be 100%. But as mentioned above my experience with lawyers is 0.

[Matt]

Yeah, this is how it is for many of us - we don't know the law or how things work, and we have little experience to judge how good of a job our lawyer is doing.  Switching can be expensive and disruptive, and the next one you try might be worse.  Ahhhh!

Here's one way to look at it:

* Decide, based on what you know, what your objectives are.  For example, when I was where you are, my objectives might have been, ":)isprove all false accusations, get primary custody of the kids, and keep legal cost to less than $X."  Or something like that.  You can discuss those objectives with us here, but it's really you who know the situation and have to decide on the outcome you think is best.

* Discuss your objectives with your attorney, and ask him for a plan to achieve them.  He won't give you any guarantees - that's understandable - but you can notice whether he comes back to you in a day or two with a clear, sensible plan, or whether he puts his energy into talking you out of your objectives - convincing you that it can't be done.  If the latter, you can decide if his points are valid - maybe your objectives aren't realistic - or if he's just a loser.

* You are 100% free to talk with other attorneys at any time.  Some give a free initial consultation;  others charge for their time.  But you don't have to give anybody a retainer til you're sure you want to hire them.  In these meetings, you can ask questions and learn a lot, and you can see if what your lawyer is telling you seems to be backed up, or if other attorneys have other ideas.

* Then decide what to do.  You don't owe your lawyer anything - he works for you - so don't be intimidated by him.  (But don't be hostile either - he might be the best available!)

I'm not a lawyer, and nobody here can give you legal advice.  The one thing I would make 100% clear to him is that you will not admit to anything you didn't do, and that if he does that - if he seems to be undermining your truth - you will not tolerate that.  You need him to work for you, not against you... .

[allblameonme]

Well he is definetly a capable lawyer in general. He did like you guys said, and we deny all allegations and he recommends to never speak with CAS unless I tell him what I want to say and he advises me first. The problem I think is that his method in this case is to proceed gently, being nice to them showing them we are doing things to show good will etc... . But when I read other resources like Ontario Fathers groups and what they recommend, they say go straight to trial, because in a case like this with no proof all allegations, they have nothing and will lose in trial. But my lawyer said he is not sure thats the best route, and CAS threatened to make my life hell if we go against them... .

Its a tough call. I definitely would like to ask for another opinion, I called one lawyer today after reading your other post, and he said any lawyer worth anything won't be able to give a 2nd opinion when you have a lawyer because its a direct conflict of interest. If I goto a lawyer for a free consultation but pretend I don't yet have a lawyer, it just creates a big mess with lies and I hate dealing with any type of lies (very sensitive to that especially now with all these lies against me... . ).

Its a tough call. I wrote my lawyer an email telling him I need confidence and what if I hired a 2nd lawyer who has lots of experience to just look over our case and possibly see if there is something he thinks would work? He was obviously a little offended but said if I want to get a new lawyer he is fine with that and understands the severity of my situation and desire for the best help... . But I told him back, look I am not saying I want another lawyer, but I definitely what to be confident we are doing the most we can. I mean this is such a crazy case... . My wife has taken out of context anything I did wrong, using it against me painting herself as a victim and ultimately the kids are the ones suffering the most!

Today btw I just came from my seeing my kids and it was for the first time extremely clear to me they are being affected by the whole situation. My older daughter who is 3 was very needy, unusual for her, she wanted me to carry her the whole time which she never does, and my oldest, my son 4, was so sad when I had to leave... . it was devastating. They are suffering big time. I dont know what, but I know I need to do anything and everything I can. You guys and girls as parents know the love, bond and connection between you and your children... . my children need me. My wife just wants to punish. I dont care about her right now, I care about my children. They need their father badly right now more than ever.

   I dont know what to do at this point. I told my lawyer that idea of going straight to trial, he is not sure about it. I told him ok what are you sure about? I need confidence this injustice is going to end swiftly so lets get to work.

I am waiting for him to call me back.

   

[Matt]

So... . what are your objectives?

That is, can you state very simply what outcome you think would be best for you and the kids?

Talking to other attorneys - nothing unusual, and no need to lie.  Don't be on the defensive.  If you retain another attorney, you'll need to let your current attorney know that, and file papers with the court appointing the new person.  It happens all the time - I did it - nothing unusual at all.

As for your current attorney, you owe him the hours that he has worked and nothing more.  He is your employee, and if you decide at any time that you want to make a change - or just want to talk with another attorney to get some different ideas, that is your right.

If your attorney is trying to make you feel awkward about this, don't fall for it.  He's a professional and it's up to him to meet your needs - which means give you a plan to achieve your objectives, and if you approve the plan, he should execute it - and if he's not comfortable with that relationship then he's probably in the wrong business.

If you took your car to the shop and got a quote for a new transmission, but decided to take it to a second shop to get a second quote - maybe you thought the first guy's price was high or you weren't confident he would do a good job - would you feel guilty about that?  And if the first mechanic tried to make you feel guilty, would you fold and give him the work, or tell him to back off and go get as many quotes as you want to?  Attorneys are pretty good at intimidating their clients into falling in line.  Don't fall for it.

You're the boss, he is your employee, and he doesn't make the rules, you do.

[allblameonme]

Objectives are:

1) prove that I am a responsible adult who is not suffering from any serious mental health issue

2) Get CAS out of the picture

3) Deal with my wife through mediators, therapists and see what will happen

Does that seem reasonable?

I just spoke to him for 45 minutes. He is a decent lawyer but he is only 35. He has dealt with many cases specifically in this area, but he is again only 35 so he doesnt have the hands on experience of a lawyer 30 years in the system. He told me if I want to use a different lawyer no problem he will help move the case over and that now is actually the best time to do it. I don't think it will help much at this point as I have no way to determine or scale him over another lawyer. I mentioned the idea to him of consulting with a leading lawyer in the area and paying him for his time to consult on this case, he said its an option maybe we could learn something new, but he said before I pay more money he has other lawyers who work in this area and he is going to meet with them first and discuss the case with them. You see here in Ontario you can get something called 'legal aid' in which the gov't pays your lawyer for your but most of the best lawyers do not accept it because it is usually at a much lower rate that what they normally charge. However it is gauranteed money so there are a lot of lawyers who do accept it. Since sadly my wife took out all the money from my business account and caused my business to collapse a few months ago, I've had to rebuild and have debts and little income at this time. With that in mind, I took the best lawyer I could find at the time. With the legal aid system its hard to switch lawyers though, so I'd rather no do it unless its very clear.

  He is willing to do what would work best, but everyone is not sure what would work best since CAS is trying to threaten to make it much worse if we dont comply, so there is a risk factor no one can know the outcome of. I think getting a fresh perspective from someone with the experience may help, but may not. So if he can check into the case with others before I fork up whatever little money I have right now to investigate alternatives, I think its the smartest thing to do.

  I will search for other lawyers who offer free consultation in any event and explain the situation and see what they say.

Tomorrow I have the meeting with the guy from JFCS I am still not sure what I am going to do... .

[Matt]

What do JFCS and CAS stand for?  What do each of them do?

Would it help to share these objectives with your attorney, and ask him for a plan to achieve them?

It seems like a good sign that he is willing to work with another, more experienced attorney.  You might be able to get good guidance from a few of the more expensive hours, but most of the work done by the cheaper guy.  And he'll learn from that too - might make him more effective in future cases... .

[allblameonme]

JFCS/CAS = Childrens Aid Society just different branches.

They are horrible horrible people that destroy families. Everyone I mention CAS to says "oh no they destroyed my cousins family... ", "they hurt my family so much", "they made my parents get divorced when I was 9", etc etc... . They tried to scare my wife into getting divorced already but she told them I do not want to get divorced... . (Which again is weird because her actions are always full of hate)

After what you guys mentioned yesterday, and what I was feeling I decided to just drop that meeting with "Eric" who has an agenda.

That won't help anyone and they clearly just want to say "He is abusive and went to the abusive husband workshop" that won't help me at all.

Instead I decided to say I joined a support group and I do not feel safe telling you what it is as you guys already wrote more lies against me in the interm affidavit when you said you feel "I would just goto the therapy places to show i'm perfect but not take it seriously" I decided since you guys are clearly working hard to abuse my family and hurt everyone as much as possible, its best if I do any work outside of your control and do not give you any names of anything I am doing as you just try to use everything against me and lost any form of trust from me.  Additionally I am more than happy to goto trial and fight for my family to be free of your tyranny. I'm sure they will try to use even that against me but you guys are right. I am not abusive, I did behave incorrectly at times which I admit, and my wifes constant abuse of me really hurt me hard and I was in a really bad place because I did not have the tools to protect myself, but I am learning those now more then ever by working with BPD professionals, and my psychiatrist.

[Matt]

You've said that CAS made accusations against you, and that they threatened you if you don't do what they want.

Are those accusations in writing, like in an e-mail or some document?

Is that threat in writing or was it verbal?

Your attorney's concern that if your wife is diagnosed the kids might be taken away - has anyone threatened to take the kids away?  And is that threat in writing?

What I'm getting at is that if everything is verbal it will be hard to prove.  But if false accusations and threats are in writing, you can show them to the court, at the right time and in the right way, and show that the accusations are false.  Making false accusations is probably a crime - you can research that yourself or your lawyer might know.  It may be possible to hold them accountable in some way... .

[allblameonme]

From what I know CAS has a lot of protection and no lawyer wants to fight against them since 99% of the time you lose. They make those threats in mediation when the lawyers are talking to each other. I wish there was something in writing!

[allblameonme]

so a quick update for anyone interested:

I went to the top authority for psychological assessments in my province. It was 2+ hours.

Doctor said I have no mental health issues. No risk to wife or children... .I knew this already, but CAS has been trying to paint me as this mentally unstable person... .

With their report (once my lawyer gets it hopefully tomorrow), I have been informed that we can create a "motion" as its called, to request the judge to look at the evidence and dismiss the case from control of CAS!

  We have a court date anyways on monday, but my lawyer said nothing new happens there... .So if I do not get what I want I will tell my lawyer to file for the motion and use this report as the main evidence with the other 2 psychiatrists as additional support and ask for the judge to get CAS out of our lives and let us deal with the situation as we want