I think this could be what tips the scale

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

I have been debating in my head if I am being committed enough in our relationship or not. Was I giving up to early and not putting forth enough effort?  I may have gotten the beginings of an answer to which side of this realtionship fence I need to be on... .

Yesterday I began the boundary of texting at work for only times while on break or lunch or emergencies... . seemed to take it ok.  10 to 15 mins before quitting time I was still in my meeting so I sent a text that probably going to be late. Saw the responce back... . "Than you for letting me know let me know when yo are leaveing."  I send onther as I was wrapping things up at the office said just about complete. Then a few mins later I said I was on my way.  Again I got a thank you for letting her know... . Hey this might be working, I'm feeling good about it. Got home she began asking me how i heard others were saying I was texting too much? I said because someone flat out told me thats what people were saying. How? I was talking to a co-worker one morning last week and paused... he asked if i was still there then i said sorry respond to text. He then told me.  She idn't believe it and said I was making it up. I said I wasn't and even so I text too much and need to stop.

That alone wouldn't eb a problem. But after being home for about 2 hours she sees a slighttion on my arm that is basically a spot i was itching.  She asked me who got the hicky from. Because my answer was not .0001 seconds imediately follwed by her accuzations I was guilty. ( I was looking at it not sure how it coul dbe perceived as a hicky). Several hours of cold silence and a texting aguement ensued. She texts rather than verbally speaks her mind some times. She was irate that i wasn't apologizing.  I said no not for this it didn't do anything wrong... I sais I am sorry that you are feeling this way and are having such a difficult time with this... . Thats all I wanted was her answer.  She just wanted me to say sorry no matter what. The accusations are getting worse and worse when I am even doing everythign right and she is even saying thank you for telling her what I am doing . Of course now I was late  not from working it was from what ever gave me this so called hicky she said... . I told her i can prove it... . she said i won't believe it anyway... . I said it was a got to meeting  meeting and i recorded it... so if you need to see it I have it. Thats when she turned silent .

I coul dunderstand if I didn't say I was going to be late and just showed up late... Just 30 mins but I still let her know. If ididn' I can see why she might b  little upset but not like this... . So hard to deal with anymore.

[Cipher13]

I have been debating in my head if I am being committed enough in our relationship or not. Was I giving up to early and not putting forth enough effort?  I may have gotten the beginings of an answer to which side of this realtionship fence I need to be on... .

Yesterday I began the boundary of texting at work for only times while on break or lunch or emergencies... . seemed to take it ok.  10 to 15 mins before quitting time I was still in my meeting so I sent a text that probably going to be late. Saw the responce back... . "Than you for letting me know let me know when yo are leaveing."  I send onther as I was wrapping things up at the office said just about complete. Then a few mins later I said I was on my way.  Again I got a thank you for letting her know... . Hey this might be working, I'm feeling good about it. Got home she began asking me how i heard others were saying I was texting too much? I said because someone flat out told me thats what people were saying. How? I was talking to a co-worker one morning last week and paused... he asked if i was still there then i said sorry respond to text. He then told me.  She idn't believe it and said I was making it up. I said I wasn't and even so I text too much and need to stop.

That alone wouldn't eb a problem. But after being home for about 2 hours she sees a slighttion on my arm that is basically a spot i was itching.  She asked me who got the hicky from. Because my answer was not .0001 seconds imediately follwed by her accuzations I was guilty. ( I was looking at it not sure how it coul dbe perceived as a hicky). Several hours of cold silence and a texting aguement ensued. She texts rather than verbally speaks her mind some times. She was irate that i wasn't apologizing.  I said no not for this it didn't do anything wrong... I sais I am sorry that you are feeling this way and are having such a difficult time with this... . Thats all I wanted was her answer.  She just wanted me to say sorry no matter what. The accusations are getting worse and worse when I am even doing everythign right and she is even saying thank you for telling her what I am doing . Of course now I was late  not from working it was from what ever gave me this so called hicky she said... . I told her i can prove it... . she said i won't believe it anyway... . I said it was a got to meeting  meeting and i recorded it... so if you need to see it I have it. Thats when she turned silent .

I coul dunderstand if I didn't say I was going to be late and just showed up late... Just 30 mins but I still let her know. If ididn' I can see why she might b  little upset but not like this... . So hard to deal with anymore.

[popeye6031]

Hi Cipher,

Reading this and a lot of your other messages are really ringing home here with me because I am dealing with exactly the same stuff.

Constantly having to message all day at work (very sure it has been noticed in my last 2 roles) and the issues with porn because pics were found on a ahrd drive from years before I even met her.  Having ever had ex-gf's or close friends who are girls is a bad one for me too.

The only difference is that I am only in 20 months into my relationship.

You have done a great job of lasting 12 years.  I am very sure I am not going to last another few months and things are drawing to a close for me.

Honestly, from everything I have read on your posts, I would say that no matter what you try to do to make things easier for you or set boundaries, your wife will be able to put a spin on it to get her own way.  It will take professional help and by all accounts that will take years to make improvements.  And firstly you would have to get your wife to agree she has a problem and then agree to get help.

I do think that ultimatums (the or else as you said) could be tried because everything she is doing is to get control over you (porn accusations, work texting, no nights out).

But chances are if you do, she will either manipulate you back round to her way or say you are pushing her away.

So, if that does not work and you decide to walk away from it, then you will have saved yourself another 12 years of having no control over your own life.

I certainly have no intention of going any further down that path.

Good luck with your decision buddy.

[Cipher13]

Thanks Popeye

I am so much mor eto the point of leaving now than ever before. Lately I have trying to get her realize or try to think about how here feelings are not truely realy and are projects of of fears of the past. Not an easy task. Probably won't work. But if  can't get there then I will know its not ever going to work. I maybe need a timeline because this could go on for ever

[popeye6031]

A timeline sounds like a good idea.  I have also set muself this and I already think I know the outcome.

Can I ask if your wife's behaviour has been steadily like this all along or has it got worse as the years went by?

[Cipher13]

Can I ask if your wife's behaviour has been steadily like this all along or has it got worse as the years went by?

You know i don't have a for sure answer for this as much i thought I would have. There has be soem great times. But the bad ones seem to be getting worse are at least more frequent. I'vve been in this for 12 years. I have only known about BPD for about a year now... . I shake my head to have had this info way back then just wonder what I could have done with it. Where would I be? Would I still be married? Would I have contact wth my family and friends? I think I would be better off.  Hope that helps you. If some on etold me about this before I got married I wouldn't have beleived them. Over time I began to think somethign was wrong as for the longest time I thought it was all me and my fault... .

[SadWifeofBPD]

What I see is this... .

You set a boundary about texting and she seemingly has accepted it.  However, is she now just substituting something else ... . looking for things (non-existant hickies) to then move on to? 

My sister warns me often about this.  She says that often you'll get them to stop doing X, but then they move on to doing Y.  For instance, years ago, my H's T told him to stop yelling at our kids because our kids had told the T that they didn't like their dad.  H agreed to lessen his yelling, which he did for quite awhile (this was when the boys were in high school).  But... . H then transferred all of his anger at them onto me.  If they "screwed up" (as kids do), instead of properly reprimanding them in a mature non-yelling way, H would start raging at me about their actions.  (BTW... . our boys were very good kids.  The worst things they did were sometimes dawdling a bit getting ready for school... . nothing major.  But, if they dawdled a bit, H would rage at me which is silly since I can't "make" a 17 year old dress any faster!  )


So, you may be facing a situation where your wife's anxiety, which isn't getting soothed my texting less often, will now move on to more accusations.  Can you talk to her about that?   It's like stopping one bad habit, but then moving on to another (or making another bad habit worse).

[popeye6031]

Sorry to hear that you have lost contact with your friends and family.  This is a big fear my family have of my gf.  And ex friends of hers have told me her plan is to get them out of my life. It sounds like it has alwasy been there for you but maybe only in the last few years you have decided to notice it.  Really hope things get better for you whatever the decision.

[Cipher13]

You set a boundary about texting and she seemingly has accepted it.  However, is she now just substituting something else ... . looking for things (non-existant hickies) to then move on to? 

Oh great another thing to manage and work on. Its endless. It is truely endless.  :'(

If I block or stop or i guess control 1 thing and anohter pops up as a result then I have to jump on that and then another takes its place all I am doing is chasing my tail. 

SadWife it seems like you have a very good support and informational person to lean on and help with understanding this with you sister.  Do you mind if I can ask you some questions that I am currious about?

1. W still has a security blanket from child hood that she still sleeps with and takes with her when we go to stay over night where ever we go. Is that sort of thing common in this? I guess that shoudl have been red flag #1 when we first met.

2. How often is it prevalent in the same family? I suspect most of her family has this or ther issues.

3. She gave me a validation statement that she wants me to tell her when she gets in the accusing moods. Should I use it and for how long? It basically an apology from the past. For examle its "I'm sorry I hurt you in the past I am not doing anythin to cause you to mistrust me."

4. Should I apologize all the time for something she can't let go that isn't realated to what sparked the rage? Feels like I shouldn't or that it will only make thingsstay the same.

5.Typically from what I have read sometimes its a childhood even that triggers BPD. Can it just be herditary? Can it just be panic and anxiety issues? Unless I am missing something I don't knwo that she had any tramatic  childhood issues.

Thnak you

[Cipher13]

Oh 1 other thing. What is it that makes decission so dang hard? And why do they hate what ever you decide for them no matter what it is?

[wishfulthinking]

LOL, Cipher13, the decision thing... . wow... . I have basically quit making any decisions that could even possibly in any minute way concern him.  I refuse to.  Last few times I tried to take care of issues without asking him caused a rage about my selfishness, not caring, never showing love, etc.  Even though the outcome was the outcome needed on the issue, I still hadn't asked him... . sigh... .

[Cipher13]

lostinparadise

My example is my W  has a job that she dislikes (hates) and found a different one. But this different one is 1 hour drive vs 20 mins. The hated job offered her more $ to stay. She has done the same type of work as this new job and didn't like the added stress... . So long story short she can't decide if she should take it or not? Wants me to decide. Oh BTW she has told the new job "no" 2 other times in this decission process only to ask if it was still available... I'm surprised they are even stil concireding her at this point.

[GaGrl]

Cipher, I can tell you from having worked in HR and talent development for many years, that yes, your behavior around excessive texting and phone calls will be noticed, and it not only place a job at risk, it will also affect how you are perceived by your supervisor and coworkers in other ways.  Your ability to present yourself on the job as professional and competent is negatively affected by excessive communications during the day.  My company had to deal with this with an account executive whose wife called him about 20 times a day.  He couldn't perform his job because he couldn't teleprospect or return client calls due to his wife's time demands on him.  Your wife may not believe this, but it's reality.

[Cipher13]

I completely agree and understand.  I may have to deal with my wife being angry at the end of the day due to lack of texting. However it better than being home all day waiting fo ran unempleoyment check... .

[wishfulthinking]

Wow Cipher13.  I am so sorry you have to deal with that pressure.  I can't see a "win" in either decision you would make in that regard.  Best of luck.

[GreenMango]

Cipher you sound scared to deal with her disappointment or disregulated moods when you get home.  Boundaries don't solve her moods.  They do give you room to breathe when the stuff goes south.

A lot of the transferring her anxiety and insecurity of texts to hickies or whatever is her emotional problems.  As long as she can shuffle these around and you are reacting to these inappropriately there's a forum for her to not deal with it.

You texted you would be late.  No big deal.  Three texts about your status enforce these unreasonable expectations of knowing exactly what you are doing every minute of the day.  And In no way is it appropriate to prove who at work thinks you text too much or try to build a case for her irrational accusations of texting.  The whole talk about values and boundaries you had previously covered it.  You need to be broken record on that point.  This pushing the boundary looking for other ways is extinction burst territory.  Read up on it.

It may be a good idea to brush up on validation regarding her fears.  Not validating the invalid but her fears.  Then ending the topic.   

You've got to have boundaries on what you'll be willing to entertain here.

[SadWifeofBPD]

SadWife it seems like you have a very good support and informational person to lean on and help with understanding this with you sister.  Do you mind if I can ask you some questions that I am currious about?

1. W still has a security blanket from child hood that she still sleeps with and takes with her when we go to stay over night where ever we go. Is that sort of thing common in this? I guess that shoudl have been red flag #1 when we first met.

2. How often is it prevalent in the same family? I suspect most of her family has this or ther issues.

3. She gave me a validation statement that she wants me to tell her when she gets in the accusing moods. Should I use it and for how long? It basically an apology from the past. For examle its "I'm sorry I hurt you in the past I am not doing anythin to cause you to mistrust me."

4. Should I apologize all the time for something she can't let go that isn't realated to what sparked the rage? Feels like I shouldn't or that it will only make thingsstay the same.

5.Typically from what I have read sometimes its a childhood even that triggers BPD. Can it just be herditary? Can it just be panic and anxiety issues? Unless I am missing something I don't knwo that she had any tramatic  childhood issues.

I will ask my sister these questions, but this is what I've found:


1)  those with PD's can attach to something (blanket or some other fav item).  They can often have addictive personalities.   My H brings his gym bag everywhere with him (not into restaurants or stores), but just always has it in the car or hotel room.  I guess he feels secure knowing that "his things" are always nearby? 


2) YES, PD's run in families.  The argument of whether it's biologically handed down or environmentally handed down is often argued.  Some will say it's some of both.  I think it's some of both.  My sister thinks it's some of both.   My FIL was likely BPD, and his kids were very much affected by his raging.  Some retreated into a shell, and my H became more of a rager like him. 

3)  I don't see much wrong with that Validation statement.  It's not an admittal of any particular "wrong-doing".  I do like the added reassurance that you're not going to do anything worthy of mistrust.

4) Personally, I refuse to apologize or say that I'm wrong about something that I didn't do or aren't wrong about.  H has accused me many times of various things that I never said or did.  I refuse to admit to something that I didn't do/say.  And, I won't apologize for it.  I might say something like, If I were to say/do something like that, it would hurt you.  I never said/did that.   My H is often delusional... . seriously. 

5) My sister strongly believes that there is a childhood trigger.  That doesn't mean that there isn't also a likely biological predisposition.   In H's case, my sister believes that something happened when my H was around 18 months - 3 years... . either abuse from his dad, or neglect from his mother. 

[SadWifeofBPD]

So long story short she can't decide if she should take it or not? Wants me to decide

You cannot make this decision. no, no, no.  Because she will forever blame you.   You can help her by sitting with her while she writes down pros and cons.  You can help her come up with some pros and cons... . but SHE needs to OWN her choice. 

[Cipher13]

You cannot make this decision. no, no, no.  Because she will forever blame you.   You can help her by sitting with her while she writes down pros and cons.  You can help her come up with some pros and cons... . but SHE needs to OWN her choice.

I know i have been telling her that she is the one that will have to work in this job and she knows the aspects better than I. I said I would point out  the pros and cons. I also said I woul dprovide my opinion on what I would do for me.But since I am not directly connected like she is that it can not be by any means used as her decision or that i am deciding it for her... . We will see how that goes today.

As far as you answers to the questions... thank very much... I came to similar conclusions also but was refreshed that I was on the right path. Just the only on ethat bothers me is #5... . If there was not any trama or a child hood trigger then can it still be BPD? Is that typicalsome sort of accepted requirement... Unless there is something that I have never been told I don't think there was any situation. As an adolescent there were some that I can see as a possible trigger. She did feel isolated when her nephew was born and her sister and brother in lw moved it and she had to me moved into the basement of the house. It wasn't a finished basement  so in that respect I'm sure it felt liek som sort of abandondment form athe comfortable bedroom she had for 15 years to  a modified bedroom in the musty basement.

[SadWifeofBPD]

Just the only on ethat bothers me is #5... . If there was not any trama or a child hood trigger then can it still be BPD

Your wife may not know/remember a "childhood trigger" from age 18 months.  Most people have very limited memories of anything younger than 3.  And, it doesn't take much.

We're not talking only about serious abuse.  The trigger could be something that wouldn't bother someone without the predisposition.

In my H's case, if it wasn't an abusive event, then it could have been this:   H was a very difficult baby (colic, allergies, demanding, never slept, cried a lot, etc)  His mother was used to "easy babies" and was likely very annoyed at this difficult baby (she still mentions how she didn't want more kids after HE was a baby because he was so difficult).  My MIL was the type who liked to have a happy baby in her lap while chatting with the neighbors.  H didn't allow for that.  MIL likely left him alone crying in his crib often just to get away from the hassle (MIL doesn't like to be inconvenienced... . at all... . ever.   that's why she indulged her kids so much.  She'd give them what they wanted to just shut them up.  NEVER any discipline either.) 

MIL is a "nice lady" by anyone's observance.  MIL is never rude or mean, so to outsiders she would seem like a great mom.  However, if she wasn't attentive to H as a baby, then likely he felt abandoned. 

[Cipher13]

We're not talking only about serious abuse.  The trigger could be something that wouldn't bother someone without the predisposition.

In my H's case, if it wasn't an abusive event, then it could have been this:   H was a very difficult baby (colic, allergies, demanding, never slept, cried a lot, etc

Ok this seems to fit with what I know. W paents have teased and joked that after W was born they knew they didn't want anymore. She may have been a difficult child. So perhaps that is just it... Again thanks... It may not fix anything but it puts things intoa perspective.

[SadWifeofBPD]

We're not talking only about serious abuse.  The trigger could be something that wouldn't bother someone without the predisposition.

In my H's case, if it wasn't an abusive event, then it could have been this:   H was a very difficult baby (colic, allergies, demanding, never slept, cried a lot, etc

Ok this seems to fit with what I know. W paents have teased and joked that after W was born they knew they didn't want anymore. She may have been a difficult child. So perhaps that is just it... Again thanks... It may not fix anything but it puts things intoa perspective.

For many years, the Experts would say to let babies "cry it out" and "don't spoil them by holding them too much".  That may work fine for babies who aren't predisposed to BPD.  A predisposed baby who is left alone to "cry it out" or whatever, is more likely going to be affected by being left alone.

and, the thing is, babies don't come with a tattoo warning that "this baby is predisposed". 

H was also "passed along" to housekeepers that my MIL began employing to free herself of domestic duties.   H may have "attached" to a housekeeper or two, and that that person suddenly left.   Trust would be destroyed.  (this is one reason why some experts warn against young children having a parade of different caretakers in daycare.  Imagine the predisposed child who is put in daycare and has different caretakers from month to month?)

Because H was so difficult, MIL didn't want any more kids.  However, when H was about 18 months old, his younger sister was born (she was an "oops".   That sister was a dream baby, and likely MIL quickly transferred all attention to her "good baby girl" and H was left to either fend for himself, or be cared for by the housekeeper.   H probably saw that his mom was now "loving on that new baby" and saw that as a big rejection.

[GreenMango]

Pretty awful right?  Parents that do things like can have serious effect on kids as you guys have experienced.

Do this help explain some things and the rejection sensitivity? 

Where to from here?

[SadWifeofBPD]

Pretty awful right?  Parents that do things like can have serious effect on kids as you guys have experienced.

Does this help explain some things and the rejection sensitivity? 

Where to from here?

Yes, it explains rejection sensitivity a lot. 

Where to go from here?  Well, I try to avoid incidents where H will feel "rejected".  when he does feel rejected, I try to validate his feelings and move on.


My theory is this... . when pwBPD were younger, they weren't able to direct their anger appropriately at those who may have "deserved it"... . and so for the rest of their lives they're throwing that anger out at those who do "something" that reminds them of that painful time. 

[GreenMango]

Validation and awareness is good start.  It's a very complicated disorder (paradoxical).  I always felt the responses and ways to handle could be complicated too.

With something like this where you see the rejection sensitivity rearing up and combined with boundary violations it can be hard to figure out how to address it.

I think that is why using SET in this kind of instance is a solid approach.  You can show your commitment and support, validate their feelings (not the offending behavior) and then state your boundary (the truth).

I noticed after some time I was really apprehensive and found it hard to pluck up the courage to do this. 

Do either of you feel like this?

[SadWifeofBPD]

Validation and awareness is good start. 

I think that is why using SET in this kind of instance is a solid approach.  You can show your commitment and support, validate their feelings (not the offending behavior) and then state your boundary (the truth).

I noticed after some time I was really apprehensive and found it hard to pluck up the courage to do this. 

Do either of you feel like this?

Yes.  Because sometimes we think that it won't work or that they won't listen/hear what we're saying because they're already in the "lecturing mode" and they're way past listening.  Important to catch them early... . before they reach that cliff of no return.

[pallavirajsinghani]

I think that we maybe  looking at the symptom instead of what the cause of the symptom is.

Excessive texting and phone calls seem to be a symptom of her rising anxiety... . her panic is rising higher and higher.  Anxiety and Panic are not always due to a specific environmental reason.  Very often these are due to organic deficiencies in the chemicals in our brain.

Is she on any kind of anti-anxiety medication?  If not, hope that she will consider addressing her anxiety issues with the doctor.

By the way, you can lay your life down but it won't offer any relief when the cause is an inward cause.

Perhaps the following approach could be more helpful. 

When any of my children is having a huge melt-down, my husband tries to solve their problem.  For example, he begins to tell them how to do this and that and not this and not that... . this only brings on more intense emotions out of them.  Now he is the target of their anger.

I on the other hand, address an emotional issue by handling their emotions.  I offer no logical or logistical help.  I just hug the child until they are calmer and very slowly and gently ask them what the problem is and then gently lead them to discover and implement their own solution.

I actually do not jump up and solve their problem at all.  I don't even give them the solution, because they are bright, intelligent, normal, non-disordered, healthy children.

What I do is, I soothe them.  I know that their anger and frustration is just fear and anxiety.

Hope this helps a bit.

[Cipher13]

Is she on any kind of anti-anxiety medication?  If not, hope that she will consider addressing her anxiety issues with the doctor.

No my W has been given some meds in the past when she was 18 or 19 or sometime around then. After taking them it cuased a severe panic attack that put her inthe ER.  She now associated all meds as cause this or the potential to cause and there for ewon't even take and Advil for a head ache.

She has had alot of success in controling her panic and anxiety issues. She has not gone to see that T for several years. I am now going back to that T and trying to find a way for wife to go to. Scheduling has nto been easy. Perhaps a phone consult is the next best way.

When any of my children is having a huge melt-down, my husband tries to solve their problem.  For example, he begins to tell them how to do this and that and not this and not that... . this only brings on more intense emotions out of them.  Now he is the target of their anger.

I am sorry to say very guilty of doing this to. For a lot of men the physical urge to make it better or fix the problem or make it go away is strong. Its how we know we have made a difference. We can see it. Mor eoe less. Men are more physical  in there onversations and weome tend to be more emotional.  My wife need me to me mor ethe emotional listener not the physical fixer. I can't fix everything. That is what I have been told before from several people.