parenting and expectations of privacy

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

I have full custody of S12. He sees N/BPDx 16 hours a month: 4 hours Sat, 4 hours Sun, every other week.

I'm wondering how others deal with privacy and communication between your kids and their BPD parents? Do you read text messages on their phones, or look at IM chats or emails between your kids and the BPD parent?

[livednlearned]

I have full custody of S12. He sees N/BPDx 16 hours a month: 4 hours Sat, 4 hours Sun, every other week.

I'm wondering how others deal with privacy and communication between your kids and their BPD parents? Do you read text messages on their phones, or look at IM chats or emails between your kids and the BPD parent?

[Catsmother]

Do you have reason to be concerned? If not, then at 12, I think the child can have some privacy. We give SS9 privacy for his calls with his ndBPD mum, and thus had been the way for years even though from the bits and pieces we have heard when he has stayed in the room do cause some concerns.

[mamachelle]

Hey livednlearned,

I monitor sometimes  but usually it is my Step Sons (9, 10, 15) just saying "uh huh" and "yeah" if it is phone.  If it is text it is just goofy stuff that the boys delete anyway. I get more information just by saying "hey- what did you guys talk about?" with BPDBioMom.

My 2 DD 14 and 16 would show me stuff all the time when BPDDad was sending them crazy texts at 2 am. They don't talk to their Dad right now though.

If you have concerns for your S or he seems distressed then I would ask him what is going on-- and if nothing is being disclosed then monitor discreetly-- if not, then I would just let it go.

The main thing I worry about is when the other parent is making plans with the kids. Both BPD parents would have rather made plans with the kids than us parents because the kids are usually agreeable. Then we have the problem of the 10 yo telling us what the vacation plans are for BioMom, telling us her flight times, the times she is coming to get him from school,  and actually now that I am thinking of it... . that is an ongoing problem with my SS10 and BPDBioMom. Monitoring doesn't change that dynamic unfortunately. It's something that DH has to work on with BPDBioMom and kids are just caught in the middle feeling very anxious.

Just my .02

mamachelle

[livednlearned]

I just feel the usual level of concern. Usually N/BPDx dysregulates when court docs are sent, or when hearings are coming up on the calendar. I'm beginning to notice that he also has outbursts on major anniversaries, as well as big holidays. When that stuff comes around, I tend to get more anxious than usual, too, and look at texts and IM messages.

But I'm feeling guilty about it. I never thought I would do anything like this, although I have told S12 that nothing he sends digitally is private, and to keep that in mind. Still, I'm torn about whether or not to stop doing this. There isn't a lot of communication between them. Most of the stuff I've seen is moderate mom-bashing against me, and some weird stuff, like N/BPDx telling S12 that he is sleeping in S12's bed because he misses him so much.

[newlymarried]

Do you think your little one can tell you if things with his BPDdad get weird? If he can do that then you should trust him enough to leave him be, if not check in with him on the communication between he and his Dad.

[Matt]

I would probably suggest stepping back - quit reading stuff unless there is a big reason, and also don't mention it to your son - don't tell him "I won't read your messages" but also don't tell him that you will (or might) - just don't mention it.

I don't think kids have an absolute right to privacy;  we're right to put their safety ahead of privacy.  But if you give up that tool, you'll rely instead on other ways of helping him - getting information from him, watching his nonverbal language more carefully, maybe talking more to his teachers - and that is all to the good.

[livednlearned]

I would probably suggest stepping back - quit reading stuff unless there is a big reason, and also don't mention it to your son - don't tell him "I won't read your messages" but also don't tell him that you will (or might) - just don't mention it.

I don't think kids have an absolute right to privacy;  we're right to put their safety ahead of privacy.  But if you give up that tool, you'll rely instead on other ways of helping him - getting information from him, watching his nonverbal language more carefully, maybe talking more to his teachers - and that is all to the good.

Yah. Thanks Matt. That's what I've decided to do. I realized I could blow our trust big time, and the whole reason I insisted on getting him a counselor is so he had a grown-up to talk to, someone who wasn't me.

I put myself in his shoes, and thought about the worse-case scenario, and also realized nothing really beneficial has come out of this. And I'm pretty good at recognizing his body language and different behavior when he's agitated about something. He has the tendency to draw attention to things, meanwhile saying it's no big deal, even though he just made it a big deal. In other words, big neon sign.

[Free One]

I would probably suggest stepping back - quit reading stuff unless there is a big reason, and also don't mention it to your son - don't tell him "I won't read your messages" but also don't tell him that you will (or might) - just don't mention it.

I don't think kids have an absolute right to privacy;  we're right to put their safety ahead of privacy.  But if you give up that tool, you'll rely instead on other ways of helping him - getting information from him, watching his nonverbal language more carefully, maybe talking more to his teachers - and that is all to the good.

I agree, and think this is important in the context of normal teenage life, not just with the other parent. How much privacy do you allow in terms of communications with friends, etc? This may be a good time to set up those kinds of boundaries in general.

[livednlearned]

I would probably suggest stepping back - quit reading stuff unless there is a big reason, and also don't mention it to your son - don't tell him "I won't read your messages" but also don't tell him that you will (or might) - just don't mention it.

I don't think kids have an absolute right to privacy;  we're right to put their safety ahead of privacy.  But if you give up that tool, you'll rely instead on other ways of helping him - getting information from him, watching his nonverbal language more carefully, maybe talking more to his teachers - and that is all to the good.

I agree, and think this is important in the context of normal teenage life, not just with the other parent. How much privacy do you allow in terms of communications with friends, etc? This may be a good time to set up those kinds of boundaries in general.

I'm not really sure how or what boundaries to put in place, actually. One of my son's friends just posted on Instagram that she wanted to kill herself. Another friend saw it, reported to a teacher, who reported it to her mom, who is my good friend, etc. It triggers all the painful stuff when S12 was 8 and would say he wanted to open the car door and kill himself in traffic. In some ways, it was actually easier when he just said it to me. Now he is in middle school, and he is much more private, and that's appropriate, but where is the boundary? I think in general I've been a better parent (validating him) and he isn't with his dad as much, so his moods are less dark and he's coping better and likes his counselor. Plus he had a good summer with lots of positive feedback from peers and grownups.

So he's doing well overall. But suicide attempts run in N/BPDx's family. If anything triggers my codependence, it's the fear that S12 will hurt himself.

The only boundary I have for him right now is that I won't let him Skype with strangers he meets online. If he Skypes or communicates through Google Hangout, he has to do it in the kitchen and it can only be with friends he knows from real life. He doesn't have a computer in his room, and isn't really into texting -- only with his dad.

What other boundaries should I be thinking about?

[Free One]

What other boundaries should I be thinking about?

I'm not entirely sure since my guy is younger than yours. I haven't had to deal with communication and technology much yet. It does seem to me that with a teenager, you do want to have rules about technology use. I think having the computer in a "public" place in the house is great. I don't believe teenagers should automatically be given total privacy, but that there is some privacy that is a human right and others that are a privilege.

How do the other parents of teens on here deal with technology and use of things such as texting, facebook, etc?

[Matt]

Let's just talk for a minute about self-harm:  suicide, cutting, risky behavior, etc.

A few weeks ago my S15 got his school physical, with a new doctor, and she administered a short questionnaire, which had a few questions about his state of mind - ":)o you sometimes think about hurting yourself?", "Have you ever thought about wanting to die?", etc.

S15's answers caused the doctor some concern, so she had a private talk with him, and then she still had some concern.  She called me and said, "He seems sad.  I could recommend a counselor."

I asked her about confidentiality and she said that any time a child gives an indication like that, she tells the parents.  I talked with S15 and told him what she said, and he said it's not a problem - "I just answered those questions." - and I let that be.  But in answering as he did, he was choosing to indicate something - not sure exactly what - and I decided it would be wrong to just ignore it, even though I think he's fine.  So I set up a counseling appointment for him, and made some other changes - spending more time with him and providing a little more structure - which I think will help.

My boundary is that any indication of self-harm, which for me would include drug or alcohol use -  not jokes but a real indication - means "I need help."  Maybe not much help - I truly am not very concerned - but some added attention and structure which I think will address the issue.

[livednlearned]

My boundary is that any indication of self-harm, which for me would include drug or alcohol use -  not jokes but a real indication - means "I need help."  Maybe not much help - I truly am not very concerned - but some added attention and structure which I think will address the issue.

That's why this is hard -- S12 used to say things about harming himself. He hasn't for a long time, but he's also now in middle school when kids keep more stuff to themselves. And because he has a disordered, substance-abusing parent makes me worry more than usual. I'm going to set a boundary for myself -- no checking texts, no checking email.

But what about telling him that anything he posts publicly on the Internet is fair game? I don't think he understands the implications, and there are no adults at school or in his life to help guide him through that, other than me. His dad posts inappropriate things online all the time, and uses it in a way I think sets a bad example.

[Matt]

I think that boundary for yourself - no checking texts or e-mails - is a good one, but it's situational.  If at some point you have a reason to believe it is wise to check them, do what you believe is best for him - he needs safety even more than privacy.

As for the internet, there is no privacy to speak of.  If he posts something that suggests self-harm, he is communicating - maybe with you or with someone else, or just shouting into the air.  Like my S15 writing that stuff on the doctor's survey - they are communicating that there is a problem, and the right thing to do, I think, is to try to understand and help.  Or if it's immediate - if he is literally saying, "I think I might do X" - maybe an even stronger intervention, like keeping him at home and watching him, or even taking him to a medical facility for observation.

Taking it to the extreme... . my older son twice tried to commit suicide, and what I learned was that when he says or does something that indicates he's going in that direction, I should call 911, and have the police take him, and put him on suicide watch.  That happened once - 24 hours - a very bad experience for him, but then he was alive, and he knew that any time he acts like that around me I will take action to keep him safe, no matter how unpleasant that experience will be for him.

I want my younger son to also know that I'm listening - I read what he posts online - I usually don't comment so he won't feel too inhibited but if there is ever anything that causes me concern I want him to know I will take action and not ignore it.

You also raise another issue... . if a kid is using the internet as his sounding board - a place to say stuff - rather than talking privately with family, friends or someone else.  I notice adults doing that too - not good but I don't know exactly where it becomes unhealthy... .

[whirlpoollife]

S15 D12.  I should but don't look at my son's phone. If I see his texts and see what his dad, x2b, is saying what can I do about it. If I say anything that pertains to that then he knows I am looking at his phone. I have looked at it last year.x2b did text about me to S. I took pictures of it.   In family court x2b got a slap on the wrist, with judge saying neither parent is to say anything negative about the other parent .  I guess I don't want see anymore what his dad is saying because it would cause extra anxiety.  My fault but... . right from the beginning I should have had the rule that the cell phone goes in the kitchen at a certain time of night. That way they would know not to abuse the privilege of it , or get obsessed with it, and they would know you could look at it .   D is not a big user of her phone and leaves it out in the open. I still have a landline phone and both use it to talk to their dad.  (many conversations still with kids answering "yes" or "no" repeatedly, meaning he is asking them questions)   He still calls a lot and for long periods so it saves minutes on their cell.   

   Laptops are to be shut off at certain times. Its getting harder though as so much of the internet is used for school. Neither kid is obsessed with facebook or emails. I repeatedly talk about , no chat rooms , or whatever is new, because of the dangers with adults looking for kids. I do look over their shoulder on what they are looking at. Fortunately  I don't have much to worry about there. ( it doesn't involve x2b so that's nice)

[Rubies]

If the stuff is just going to trigger you then you need to stay out of it.   Let the X badmouth you.  Kids see the truth, they'll ask questions.

It's the safety stuff that's important.  We can tell by our kids' behavior when things are unsafe or when they're in the "don't tell mom" zone.   That's when we need to ask questions and check messages.

"You seem to be having a problem.  Is there something you'd like to talk about?" 

BPDxh put DD in that Secrecy place once, an out of state vacation during a visitation.  I could tell something was seriously wrong. I asked, she talked.   We discussed the dangers of secrets, the possible risks of the trip and safety precautions she could make.  Her dad had taken her out of state against her will and only returned her by court order.  She was gone for 6 weeks and was seriously traumatized.   Even at 18, she does not keep secrets from me

She was allowed to use the phone in her room with the door open.  If she got stressed out on the phone, I had no problem taking it and listening, then addressing the person.   

As far as DD's cell phone, texting, email and computer use, BPDxh was so bad with his emotional incest and lack of self control, DD kept her phone turned off except when she wanted to call.  She never read his text messages.  She canceled her email account and blocked him on social network by time she was16

[livednlearned]

It's the safety stuff that's important.  We can tell by our kids' behavior when things are unsafe or when they're in the "don't tell mom" zone.   That's when we need to ask questions and check messages.

I'm wondering if maybe this is different for boys? My son is introverted -- he's actually not easy to read. He has learned how to be very evasive with his dad, and it's a mechanism he is using more and more in general. For the most part, I have a good r/s with him, but I know he doesn't (and doesn't need to) tell me everything. I know when he's traumatized, and he reports a lot to me about his experiences at school, more so than many of his friends tell their parents.

But your comment raises something else for me. S12 sometimes responds nonsensically to texts -- both ones I send, and ones his dad sends. I think it's a way for S12 to control the interaction. It's like he wants to let you know he got the text, but doesn't want the conversation to go any deeper, or continue. I've been trying to tell him how the nonsensical texts come across, trying to get him to be more mature. But maybe I should just accept that it's something a codependent kid might do, kind of like blocking someone on FB?

[Matt]

It's the safety stuff that's important.  We can tell by our kids' behavior when things are unsafe or when they're in the "don't tell mom" zone.   That's when we need to ask questions and check messages.

I'm wondering if maybe this is different for boys?

Well it's very different for my S15 and D16.  S15 rarely opens up, and when he does, it's kind of in his language not mine - he doesn't always tell me what's going on with him very clearly.  D16 is just the opposite - she makes it very clear that there is a problem, and if I listen she tells me exactly how she sees things, and is open to ideas.

Not sure if all boys are one way and all girls the other, but I think it's pretty common that boys are reluctant (or unable) to describe what is going on and how they're feeling.

[Rubies]

Yes, a nonsensical reply is very male thing, and probably way more polite than what he'd like to say.  Ask, "What are you thinking?"  he replies, ":)ead flies."  You probably don't want to pry further and it's more polite than saying none of your business.  Males take longer to process emotions than females.

Ask some females the same question and she can use 2,000 words in 10 seconds giving you the full spectrum of the rainbow with dancing unicorns, or she will tell you none of your business, or choose ":)ead flies."

I think being a safe person and providing safe people for our kids to talk with about their issues is what's important.  Anything that feels like Grilling or Spying is going to shut them down and cause them to shut us out.

[Free One]

But what about telling him that anything he posts publicly on the Internet is fair game? I don't think he understands the implications, and there are no adults at school or in his life to help guide him through that, other than me. His dad posts inappropriate things online all the time, and uses it in a way I think sets a bad example.

I think teaching ANYTHING done via internet lacks a certain amount of privacy, and anything posted on FB or other social media IS PUBLIC is a good thing for all parents to teach their children. Kids can't understand the ramifications of posting on the internet. My ex also posts inappropriate things... . luckily I have time to talk to my son about what is appropriate to share with others and facebook before he reaches the age of having his own access (and seeing his dad's posts).

[Rubies]

I think it's important to realize what an important tool social media is to keeping track of how well our kids are doing, as well as what the BPDs are up to.  Try not to discourage their free expressions, stay out of their conversations and their heads, but use it as a barometer to their wellbeing.

Schools, cops, probation officers, extended family members, community members who care "Friend" high risk kids who accept every friend request.  They never post to the these kids, and kids forget who all is in their list of 500 friends.  Kids think nothing of posting away about stuff they really wouldn't say out loud to responsible parents.