uBPDw suggestion seems logical at first... now I don't know

[Cipher13]

Over the weekend uBPDw and I went to visit her parents. Left Friday after work. I recieve a text 20 mins before I am ready to leave work asking if I'm on time. I said yes right now. At quitting time I sent another that going to be couple mins late nee dot wrap things up. She went irate and sent a text. I wanted to quickly get the couplethings done so I could leave. It took maybe 5 to 6 mins. I responded to her demanding text at 3:10 saying I'm on my way.  I go home 2 mins later than I originally told her I would. So I was still right around 3:30.  She wanted none of it. Said I needed to respond imediately to her when she sends a text like that. I said if you can physically type and email and talk to someone on the phone and text me all at the same time then you tell me how to do it.  She claims she can. Anyway after argueing about this for the whole 2 1/2 car ride to here parents and then again when we went to bed we argued up until 1 or 2 am.

The next morning she says your T said you right out the list so thats what I want you to do. So I said ok as it seemed odd that she wanted me to write out what I needed from her. After I showed her she said no I need to write out the things I am going to do to make her feel love and respected.

I started that and put some examples. After a few it started feeling like I was writting out all the things she requires of me for her to feel good about our realtionship and nothing on how I feel about it. So now i don't know if I should finish it. Seems all 1 sided without having anythign for my feelings... . I guess I don't count.

[Newton]

Cipher13... . I know where you are coming from.  I too experienced major emotional blow ups (dysregulation, or major extinction bursts)... . followed by a list of demands from my ex... . (usually written in a letter!)... .

ie/ if only Newton would do X,Y,Z then we wouldn't be having these arguements... .

This is a classic method of her denying responsibility for her disordered feelings (a sense of entitlement, fear of being late and looking bad, whatever!)... . and making it YOUR responsibility to fix it!... .

Trust me, the more you give in to these demands, the more she will request until you are a limp shell of your former self... .

It's time to set some strong boundaries, and stick to them... . what is really upsetting you right now?... .

Validation language and SET will also help when she is freaking out... . choosing to enter into circular arguements as it appears you are doing now will just add fuel to the fire... .

Have you had a chance to read up on the lessons here?... . or put them into practice?... .

Regards, Newton.

[Cipher13]

Trust me, the more you give in to these demands, the more she will request until you are a limp shell of your former self... .

The shell is wearing thin these days.

It's time to set some strong boundaries, and stick to them... . what is really upsetting you right now?... .

I have set up a couple boundaries that are tested all the time. Its a full time emotional effort to keep them in place. Also new ones have been failing miserably with giant outbursts. I have beentrying everything I can find here. Limited success and alot of ultimate failure. Still sticking with them though.

I do tend to be in the circular arguments even with the knowledge of trying to avoid them in advance. I have given into these demands way to much. When I talked to here baout a list it was supposed to be for me to make one of the things I need from her... . she tunrned this around on me... . at first she made it sound like something that would help the comunication and prevent some confliction of communications... . now its a list of what to do for her... . I'm so dumb to have fallen for that. I should have stuck with my gut feeling of I don't wan tot do this.

[Newton]

I've been there!   ... . beating yourself up now isn't going to help... .

The lessons here are fantastic in stopping making things worse... . but they aren't a cure for the mess she is in... .

What do YOU want... . even if you could put the knowledge here into place overnite... . consistently (which none of us can or have!)... . would it be the sort of relationship you want?... . or deserve?... .

[Cipher13]

What do YOU want... . even if you could put the knowledge here into place overnite... . consistently (which none of us can or have!)... . would it be the sort of relationship you want?... . or deserve?... .

My T kind of phrased a similar question to me. What do I want from this relationship? What does my wife do for me? What do I need from her? What does she do to shoe me love?

The answer is I don't know? I havn't put myself in the place where I felt I needed something. I was always giving and being told I was still selfish or selfish if I asked in return.

To answer you question honestly its not the sort of relationship I want. Its become one that I know I do not deserve. However after years of being told I am to blame for her feeling like I have beleived in that. Now I am trying to dig out. Its like trying to dig the sand aut of the desert with a spoon.

[Newton]

FOG (fear,obligation, guilt)... . can be all consuming... .

Many of us here (putting my hand up right now) have learnt this behaviour as children... .

When we meet someone who offers us this same dynamic in adulthood we feel attracted to it... . and uncomfortably comfortable... .

It's so good to hear you have a therapist to help you through these issues... .   It made all the difference to me!

So things seem to have really gotten on top of you recently... . what kind of boundaries could you work on to give you some breathing space?... .

[Cipher13]

Newton

How should I approach stopping the endlest lists? Every appraoch I can think of leads to the same disastorous conclusion... . total thermal nuculear war!  I have considered leaving but I am struggling with 2 major issues with that... . 1 guilt which I think I could get over and the struggle of how to tell her? ie as in what form... person (seems dangerous), text (seems lazy), letter (same as texting), don't say anthign at all ever, (doesn't seem right).

[Cipher13]

So things seem to have really gotten on top of you recently... . what kind of boundaries could you work on to give you some breathing space?... .

Thats what I need is to find soem space. When she is not with me she wants so much to monitor whats going on. And she say if possible 24/7 should be looked as the ideal we should be accheiving for each others company.

[popeye6031]

Hi Cipher.

Sounds like a tough night for you, sorry to hear that.

Coincidentally I have just been through something very similar today with my uBPD fiance...

I have been putting my foot down a lot recently after finding out about numerous infidelities (she of course denies them).  In doing so I am being accused of pushing her away and that I must be interested in someone else.  I told I was not listening to her bull___ and she needs to quit her behaviour.  

So, she agreed, initially, and for the 50th time in total taht she will try to change.  But within a matter of minutes she said that I need to help her change by telling her I love her mnay, many times throughout the day. I said no and will say it at appropriate times.  She kept asking and asking.  But I did not give and I will not give in.  I know wexactly what will happen if I do give in. Things will return to exactly how they were.  I am pretty sure this is the start of the end for my relationship but rather that than a life of misery.

Stick to your guns Cipher.  I think it  depends on the individual on how they react to boundaries but either way (accused of pushing them away or rages) you might be set free.

[Cipher13]

Stick to your guns Cipher.  I think it  depends on the individual on how they react to boundaries but either way (accused of pushing them away or rages) you might be set free.

Good advice. Listen to my gut. If it seems wrong it probably is. If it feels right it probably is. Now I mentioned how she was being unrealistic in a text to her dad on saturday about something. He said tell her to stop acting like her sister.  That should get her open her eyes.  It will open something I'm sure.

[Newton]

Cipher... . being attached at the hip (as she is suggesting)... . ie/... . 24/7 is enmeshment... . not a healthy relationship.

This is extreme mirroring... . she is attempting to take her identity from your behaviour... .

Apologies, I haven't read your back story... . is she seeking help?... .

It sounds like currently you are the one who is going to be able to make effective changes regardless of whether you stay, or leave... .

What do you think is an essential priority for you... . right now?... .

[Cipher13]

Cipher... . being attached at the hip (as she is suggesting)... . ie/... . 24/7 is enmeshment... . not a healthy relationship. I know. T said the same thing

This is extreme mirroring... . she is attempting to take her identity from your behaviour... .

Apologies, I haven't read your back story... . is she seeking help?... . No exactly. She sees it as my fault and my issues that need to ce corrected. She is scheduled for joint session in a few weeks with me and T

It sounds like currently you are the one who is going to need to make effective changes regardless of whether you stay, or leave... . I am doing just tah as  best ai can. If i can hel p her along the way I will but I have been doing that for the last 12 years.

What do you think is an essential priority for you... . right now?... . I don't know. I have a lot of work to do on myslef with this very question. I have alsway been all in for her and her needs. I havn't really took personal inventory of myself. Because in doing so I have been labled as selfish.

[seeking balance]

Newton has given you great advice.

Regarding the initial blow up - I have found it helpful to practice SET tools before the land mine.   Beating yourself up over this is not the goal, but in reading your post it seemed she was triggered and needed her emotions validated.  Whether reasonable or not, it was how she felt.

Trust me, I understand you were likely stressed on your own anticipating the blow up.  I found when I was able to remain calm and validate the emotions, the bad mood didn't disappear - but it didn't go into the random attacks or examples that tend to make everything worse and make me doubt my own reality.

Your feelings do matter - unfortunately, your wife is not really capable of dealing with them when she is triggered.  Is it fair - no.

Is it accurate for the disorder - yes.

To the right - there is a really good tool on how to choose a path.  The questions seem simple, but if you take the time to dive in deep to them, it may help you choose the direction.  There is no right or wrong.

Be good to you.

Peace,

SB

[popeye6031]

Thats what I need is to find soem space. When she is not with me she wants so much to monitor whats going on. And she say if possible 24/7 should be looked as the ideal we should be accheiving for each others company.

Oh no, no way do you want this.  You would be a caged animal. I know fine rightly my gf would love the same thing.

[Seppe]

she wanted me to write out what I needed from her. After I showed her she said no I need to write out the things I am going to do to make her feel love and respected.

I laughed to myself when I read this.  I get a variation of that a lot.  "I don't feel respected.  What are you going to do about it?"  and If "you really loved me, you wouldn't want me to feel this way."

If she could only understand that I would love it if I actually COULD change how she felt... .

[Newton]

Cipher... . Identifying what you need, deserve and want right now is really important... . I know this isn't easy... . when my T first asked me this question I sat there a little dumbfounded (when I say "a little"... . I mean a few weeks!)... .

That is not a question I had considered before... . other peoples needs were always the priority for me... .

That is where I took my self worth from, being there for other people... . it kinda sounds like you are doing the same thing... .

Thats what we are here for... . to help you with this  ... . then, and only then, will your relationship issues fall into place... .

[Newton]

ps... . re: the endless lists of demands... . you can't change her behaviour in stopping her writing/asking for them... .

... . your power comes from choosing not to engage with them... .

Have you looked at the lessons about "J.A.D.E"... . ?... .

[Cipher13]

I'm sorry but I am either the worst person at use all the tools that are provided here or they don't work on her or she doesn't have BPD.

Now I am primarily going off of what happened last night. But I didn't know this but I am mean. I have changed. I am calous and cruel. But most of all I am just so mean. So after dinner I was going to take our dog for a walk. Wife says brush the little one first. I said I will just bring her to then and brush her after.  She says no. So I brush the dog and get ready to head out. She sayd not stay with me. I said you just told me to brush the dog then I can take the other. No stay with me. I said I will be right back only gone for a few mins on a short walk.

I get back and she says her feelings are hurt that I just left. I said well I am back now whats up. she said "you didn't need to say that jerk. I needed you and you left. I had a bad day and wanted to talk about it and you just left." I said "I didn't realize you had a bad day you never said anything other than you were bored at work today. "

He reply was thats why i had a bad day. I was at work I was there. I said thats not really a bad day thats a boring job. But I will listen to you no.  But I was told its too late she is upset with me and I am now being a jerk and being mean to her.

So ever since I began to stand up for myslef and begin using these tools to help our relationship to help both of us she has seen it as a change. It is a change. I was a slave to her needs aand comands and when she was upset I begged and did everything  to try to get it back to feeling normal.

She was so close to having me tell her she has BPD.  Thing is I know that wouldn't go over well and make things worse but she knows something is up with me and that I am different and having found this out she is not responding to these tools.  She i adimit about me telling her why I changed and why I am all of a sudden different and so so mean to her. I can't even tell her I'm not being mean or trying to be mean .

[Newton]

Cipher you implementing these tools has made a difference... . she doesn't like them and her behaviour seems to be worse... . many of us here have experienced the same... . she is resisting the change.

It sounds like her emotions are ruling your household and your life... . this must be squashing your personality, your desires, your dreams... . this simply isn't tenable.

What does Cipher want?... .

[Cipher13]

Obviously soemthig is happening. How do I tell her why I am being different? I can't tell her its because I think she has BPD.

Her emotions are rulling with a terrible iron fist. She has made me feel like I am doing these thing son purpose to her. If I listen to what she is saying long enough she begins to convince me. Just enough truth to apply th guilt.

What does Cipher want... . ?... . I hate to say this but to be left alone. She saying I know you don't want to be together anymore. I know you don't love me. How can you with treating me like this... . I had so many oportunites to agree to that and be released... . But I feel that is a trap that will come back to haunt me some how. I have said to her if thats how you feel you can do what you feel you need to do to be happier. But it still comes back to her telling me to admit thats what I want. I feel like she is trying to trap me into further guilt if I agree.

[Newton]

My friend... . it's ok to want what you want... . that is not selfish... . it's healthy!

That may not fit in with what she wants... .

It's ok to want out of this nonsensical behaviour... . it sounds like her acting crazy is driving you crazy!... .

I am sensing you feel obligated to stay (the "O" part of FOG... . Fear, Obligation, Guilt)

If this is the case, why?... . it's obvious her behaviour is making you miserable... .

[Cipher13]

Yes I think I am maybe pas the Fear now. I do feel lke i have obbligations. If I had kids then I would have more things to consider here. I do also feel guilt. Alot has been push upon me.

I see 2 things being my obsitcals. #1 I am a planner by nature. (Not OCD type but I like to have a idea of what to reasonbly to expect). So I don't know how to plan for this. #2 yeah obligationand guilt. I feel obligatd to  take care of my wife. When we first met she was very outgoing and independent. Now i can't see her alone and being productive. I so hope I am wrong about that. Also the guilt of leaving her in that situation is there. I realize she is an adult and can take care of herself. But she hasn't been  either at times.

[Newton]

Ok... . I understand your fears about what she would do and how she would cope if you parted... . and I also appreciate your fear of unpredictable change... . any change is scary (and also often very rewarding!   )... .

What do you want for your life?... .

[Cipher13]

Newton I wan to thtnak you for challenging me on this. I really need this right now. I know change of the unknown can be scary. I also am looking forward to it being rewarding.

I want to be in a place where I don't have to over think how I need to speak to my SO for fear of alienating her or saying the wrong thing.

I want to feel comfortable enough to express my thought or opinion or even question without thinking it might turn into a sistuation. 

I want ot be an the same page as my partner and it doesn't even have to be all the time.

I want the feeling that of my gut climbing into my throat everytime I here my phone go off fo rfear of having to communicate to her.

I want to be able to have fun with my family... . heck I just want to see them again.

I want to be able to be free to be the person I used to be 12 to 13 years ago... .

I don't want to feel trapped.

I want to feel more self confident and opened up tp the world and less isolated from things.

I want friends again. Old ones and or new ones.

I want to be able to feel I can do what I want in my own house without feeling like someone is looking over my shoulder and if I am not where I am expected to be or doing what I am expected to do that I am selfish or hidding something.

Most of all I want to feel alive.

[Cipher13]

Snippet of what I am dealing with:

Her:>

If we are to be conversing by email, as your last text indicated, then

> I expected to see one from you.  Which, of course, I do not.

>

> To continue from the wonderful interactions of last evening; you are

> not sorry.  Even in your "journal" entry that you left for me to see,

> you do NOT take responsibility.  You admit that you have changed and

> all I can say from the perspective of the person who is around you

> most, you have changed for the WORST.  You are not kind, loving, or

> affectionate.  You are cruel, hurtful, and demeaning.  I did not fall

> in love with the person who you have become.  You do NOT want to be

> close or intimate with me.  You only project anger towards me.  You

> treat me in a way that says you are doing it with someone else.  The

> biggest thing is you are not the same person anymore bottom line.

My responce

I know I didn't respond right away via email. I was finishing checking

> out the last system pricing issue.

>

> Anyway I don't know what to respond to your email below right now so I

> wanted to just acknowledge your email and reply. I really am sorry

> though.

Her

THE LAST RESPONSE WAS COMPLETE SARCASAM FROM ME!  I EXPECTED MUCH MORE THAN THAT FROM YOU!

I wrote

[Cipher13]

I tried using SET:

> I want to help find a way to make this better. I care about you and

> love you so very much. I see that this is making you so very angry and

> upset and understand how frustrating this is being for you. Here is

> what I can do. I can try to do better at understanding you feelings

> and making sure I am aware of how my words might spark further problems.

>

This was the response:

This does not address anything.  This is you saying what you will do for me!  This is not you taking responsibility for anything or that you even admit that you are doing anything wrong.  You are cruel, hurtful, and demeaning.  I did not fall in love with the person who you have become.  You do NOT want to be close or intimate with me.  You only project anger towards me.  You treat me in a way that says you are doing it with someone else.  The biggest thing is you are not the same person anymore bottom line.

This is an example of it not working. Or did ti not use SET right?

[popeye6031]

This was the response:

This does not address anything.  This is you saying what you will do for me!  This is not you taking responsibility for anything or that you even admit that you are doing anything wrong.  You are cruel, hurtful, and demeaning.  I did not fall in love with the person who you have become.  You do NOT want to be close or intimate with me.  You only project anger towards me.  You treat me in a way that says you are doing it with someone else.  The biggest thing is you are not the same person anymore bottom line.

I am no great expert on SET but you certainly looked to make a good attempt at it.  I think you are onto a no win situation here.  It looks to me that your attempt to set boundaries is having the exact same effect mine did.  To be accused of being mean, pushing her away and being interested in someone else.  I have been readnig over past conversations with my gf and it has really made realise that nothing is ever gonna change or work to make her feel better, except herself and therapy.  I think you are probably in the same boat.  And if that is never going to happen, then you need to do what is best for yourself.

[Cipher13]

You know when all these tools are mentioned to try to use and you use them an use them and it seems to get worse and worse then you start to question the tools or the user. I am a believer in checking th euser first ast the tools were created by ohters that must have had some sort of success.

[RedEye]

Cipher, it sounds like we have the same wife... . you're doing much better than I have at setting boundaries. Usually when I try, she ends up raging and I get scared and overwhelmed and make a bunch of stupid promises (not keep any secrets, do everything she asks, never leave without her permission, etc.). Are you in counseling at all? I'd hope that there is somebody that could come between you two and try to explain why you're saying what you're saying. I don't think she'd accept reasons coming from you.

Stay strong. Trust that how you're behaving is the right thing, and stick to it, and do everything out of love.

[Cipher13]

I just made a huge step back. I agreed to all her demands again just to get her to stop. At least she doesn compleltet buy that I will. I keep saying try and thats angering her. Now what? I was going well from a personal stand point.