Facing the reality of it all... HIGHLY contested divorce in process...

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

J:

Re:  The Potential Utility of a Deposition

I think LnL may really be onto something.  I am going to copy and repaste for your ease of access in sorting thru the wood between forest and trees.

       If your ex engages in emotional reasoning, which many pwBPD do, then a deposition might be a better tool. She will say outlandish and outrageous things, and contradict herself, and that will become testimony that she must stand by in court. Not easy to do when you invent stuff. It will undermine her credibility.

In your case, a deposition would expose how she's obsessively angry toward you, and that rage is impeding her judgment about what's best for the kids, which should be to foster a healthy relationship with you. If you have the deposition done 6 months after date of separation, and she is still raging at you, the court will start to see that she has anger issues. Courts want to see anger abating, not increasing or remaining red hot after 6 months.

With high-functioning BPD, I think the key is to aim high and pace yourself. Ask for more than what you plan to settle for, and use the slow process of the court system to your advantage, and then think strategically how to expose behaviors to the court. Keep in mind that many courts do not care about things that happened 6 months before. And once you have a hearing, anything settled at that hearing is on the record. Meaning, if you try to revisit issues that happened before your first hearing, the court won't hear it. Don't think that you can agree to something below standard with your ex now, and then re-negotiate a better outcome at a different hearing. It doesn't quite work that way.

Also, ask your L about using a parenting coordinator. Not a co-parenting therapist -- that's different. A parenting coordinator has extension of judicial duties. You would sign a parenting coordinator order that would likely be in effect for one or two years.     

[SeekerofTruth]

J:

Re:  The Potential Utility of a Deposition

I think LnL may really be onto something.  I am going to copy and repaste for your ease of access in sorting thru the wood between forest and trees.

       If your ex engages in emotional reasoning, which many pwBPD do, then a deposition might be a better tool. She will say outlandish and outrageous things, and contradict herself, and that will become testimony that she must stand by in court. Not easy to do when you invent stuff. It will undermine her credibility.

In your case, a deposition would expose how she's obsessively angry toward you, and that rage is impeding her judgment about what's best for the kids, which should be to foster a healthy relationship with you. If you have the deposition done 6 months after date of separation, and she is still raging at you, the court will start to see that she has anger issues. Courts want to see anger abating, not increasing or remaining red hot after 6 months.

With high-functioning BPD, I think the key is to aim high and pace yourself. Ask for more than what you plan to settle for, and use the slow process of the court system to your advantage, and then think strategically how to expose behaviors to the court. Keep in mind that many courts do not care about things that happened 6 months before. And once you have a hearing, anything settled at that hearing is on the record. Meaning, if you try to revisit issues that happened before your first hearing, the court won't hear it. Don't think that you can agree to something below standard with your ex now, and then re-negotiate a better outcome at a different hearing. It doesn't quite work that way.

Also, ask your L about using a parenting coordinator. Not a co-parenting therapist -- that's different. A parenting coordinator has extension of judicial duties. You would sign a parenting coordinator order that would likely be in effect for one or two years.     

[ForeverDad]

Most us us are hit hard by lawyer bills, so we are faced with a quandary, how to find the money to get experienced representation.  I count myself fortunate that I didn't have to sell my home, declare bankruptcy, lose my job or any other lousy outcomes others have suffered.  But I did have to leverage everything.  For you that's apparently not an issue, not if you can pay that much support without even being ordered to.  "This is the 'craziest' case she has ever seen."  I think you could afford better, experience and strategy does count.  Bill Eddy has written several other books, I read High Conflict People in Legal Disputes where he frequently described the qualities we desperately need in a lawyer: experienced, assertive, problem-solving, keeping the case moving and on track, goal-oriented, not sacrificing too much in hopes on getting a quick 'deal'.  After all, your lawyer works for you, your lawyer is not your boss, his or her advice should guide and redirect, not dictate.  However, you do have to set limits no matter who the lawyer is of course.  You're the driver, knowing your destination, your lawyer is beside you using the map, legal background and training to get you there.

By seeking consultations at a minimum you will be ensuring that you don't overlook or miss strategies that will help your child long term.

She is only working 2x 8 hour shifts (from full time).

So she uses a nanny?  And she's worked full time previously?  Then she has no excuse not to at least partially support herself and not just by a couple days a week.  Spousal support is typically during the divorce process.  Alimony generally follows state guidelines and the length of the marriage is a huge factor.  If married for just a few years then any alimony will likely be short term, often only long enough for the disadvantaged spouse to get a job or get training/education for a career.  It could include a couple years in a college, but not much more.  What I'm saying is that most courts these days don't assume the mother always get alimony so she can hand the child a few dollars for a school lunch and sit at home doing whatever while the kid is at school.

As I wrote before, beware of being too generous or you could risk setting a high living standard that you'll lock yourself into supporting as an obligation.

My L has been pushing me to get a temporary agreement in place that would be either no overnights or one overnight (per week) for 2.5s with the "callout" in the agreement saying I disagree with the overall parenting time and that it should be revisited at permanent orders.

No overnights?  No way!  Do you know who never get overnights?  Generally, either people whose life or job doesn't have room for parenting or people who aren't trusted having overnights with the kids.  If you're not a candidate for supervised visitation or out of town 95% of the time for work then that's self-defeating.

Fair warning, bluntness here:  Only you can decide what to do but nearly everyone here has had the initial order set by the judge, the stbEx (soon-to-be ex) was just far too entitled to agree to anything even halfway reasonable.  I'm not saying seeking a deal should be halted, what I'm saying is that you consider putting prime focus on seeking at least the standard minimum time from the judge.  If a deal happens, fine, but if it doesn't then you'll be in line at court for resolution by the judge.  (If she actually uses a nanny, then be prepared to use that to deflate her claims every time she wails about needed to be the primary parent because she does everything for the child and you don't.)

Repeat:  Find out the standard or typical schedule in your area, if available.  That should be your minimum to accept, more or less.  Any offer substantively less is unreasonable and odds are you'd get a better order from the judge, the real authority.  However, I do like that clause, "with the "callout" in the agreement saying I disagree with the overall parenting time and that it should be revisited at permanent orders."  However, that while you're adamant about REASONABLE and NORMAL parenting time, not as a tradeoff.

That may make it easier to get a 'deal' now but the downside is it would cement into place a new 'normal' for your child, very minimal time with father.  Court puts a lot of weight on the parenting history and may be reluctant to make significant changes later, as my lawyer stated to me, for fear of 'upsetting' the child.  (I wish I could remember whether I retorted back, "What if my son is upset because the order isn't changed?"

Typical orders for the non-primary parent are for alternate weekends and one to two evenings or overnights in between.  Why alternate weekends?  It gives both parents a full weekend for various activities that take more than a few hours such as a couple days visiting the grandparents, out of town weekend trips, spending relaxed time at an amusement park, etc, knowing you don't have to rush right back after a few hours.  It also gives both parents a weekend off.   So getting brief time each weekend would not be a normal solution.  (However, if she wants it and it give you MORE parenting time then don't reject it, just don't sell yourself short on the rest of your parenting schedule.)

Disclaimer:  This is peer support, not a source of legal advice.  Sorry.

[SeekerofTruth]

From following this board in the past, I picked up on a few generalities:

1.   Once the lawyers get involved, things really start to get screwed up.

2.  "collaborative" divorce model tends not to work because of the BPD in ability/unwillingness/inconsistency to abide by agreements.

3.   Psych Evals seem to carry a lot more weight in our heads (because we want the craziness to be exposed for all the world to see) yet, more often than not, their impact gets marginalized thru the process in which the evals are often administered by some mediocere run-of-the-mill evaluator whose going thru the motions, in a system that just grinds.

4.  Hence, my bias was toward the mediation mode., because at least those attorneys tend to "get it", and have some training, awareness, and competency as it relates to high conflict couples and pds.

5.  The BPD can thwart all of the above, as their sense of entitlement, manifested in all-or-nothing thinking, gets played out over and over again.  And when all else fails, creating a sense of chaos becomes their all too familiar base of dysregulated comfort, as others around them get spun around in the web of their whirlwind.

6.  As LNL suggested, alternative professional roles, to the traditional adversarial divorce process, such as "parenting coordinator" or guardian ad litum can provide more of a middle-of-the-road structured approach down the avenue you pursue, especially as it pertains to "keeping your eye on the ball".

7.  :)on't count on it, but remember, even BPDs are capable of "momentes of lucidity" in terms of grasping their own destructive impact upon others and themselves as a consequence of their mental-emotional wonkiness.

I'm hearing some concerns expressed about your L being up to the task.  Maybe.  Of course, you'll be the one most invested and likely the one working the hardest.  So conserve your energy and plod along prudently as you begin to build your case, and when the time comes to put your cards on the table.

I like the idea of deposition for precisely the reasons LNL cited.  Now, it may require lots of leg work in preparing your line of inquiry and getting them to open their mouths and expose whats inside their crazy heads, which if they are high functioning and manipulative can outplay the psych evaluator and testing, when you have a run-of-the mill court process going on.

But the legwork and prep may be key.  I dunno.  Forgive my verbosity.  If you very systematically, just like wrting a term paper and re-editing several times before submission, get either free or minimal consultations with at least 3 other Ls, spread like a week or weeks apart as you refine your line of thinking in how you'd like to see the deposition unfold.

YOu have the inside information.  YOu KNOW the BS and trauma drama.  From being on these boards, you have become more familiar and grounded in the type of whacked out dynamics the BPD has played out.  As you begin to recollect and name these atrocities , you can list them out and structure your deposition.  As you consult with other Ls, your recall of the specific entanglements will become clearer... .and then its a matter of having her talk about them.  If the deposition taking is carefully prepared, it can start as relatively mild and inquisitive.  And then when you start to get to What the hecks, you can sorta lay back and be a witness to whatever BS comes out of her mouth.  And then on to the next What the heck.  And then on to the next What the heck.  And so on... .

A note of caution:  My mantra inside my kaput marriage, is two wrongs don't make a right, and internally above all else i value peace and harmony... .which sometimes, paradoxically we have to fight for and get bloodied as a result.  As you begin to untangle the many layers upon layers, of a particular What the heck dynamic... .because it was / is part of your negative attachment, its very likely to be re-traumatizing and veeeerrrrryyy surreal.  Hence take care.  Establish a foundation of self-care as a routine in your habitual organizational behavior, which you'll eventually be able to model for your children.  I know my healing won't likely won't happen until my divorce is final... .and I have reorganized my life around a whole another set of energies.

Good luck, stay the course, thru the grind.  Hope this might help.

[jmrslc]

Jmrsic,

Just going to say this: it sounds like you can afford a better lawyer. My gut says you are going to need one with more than 5 years experience.

Also, if you're a people pleaser like many of us are, don't stick with your current L just because you're afraid of hurting her feelings or your friends. Stick with her only if you think she is the right person for the job.

I can, if push comes to shove.  I do worry about hurting her feelings (or the personal friend who is related to her).  She is giving me a lot of time and energy, which makes it hard to switch.  With a status hearing Monday (~2 business days away), I don't know that changing before Monday makes sense.  Nothing firm should come out of the status conference anyway, right?

You can even go on avvo.com for free!

I had never visited this site.  I just posted there.  The one thing that I keep coming back to is that she has a vested interest in the outcome (more so than random L in the yellow pages).  She has put a lot of time, energy, and effort into this.

I am scared I will make the switch, spend the money, and get no better an outcome.  Between Ex and myself (her swapping and consulting six attorneys now, me swapping once -- which WAS the right move), I think we are already at $25k and we haven't even had a status hearing yet... .

Scary... .

I hope they will impute income.  Per state statute, they cannot for the primary caregiver with children under 30 months, and she reduced her hours AFTER I filed for legal separation.  They CAN impute for alimony/maintenance, but it is grey area.  There are also several "grey area" pre-marital/marital assets up for debate.  It isn't all about the money, but I don't want to get the short end of the stick either.  I already feel it is unfair that I worked my tail off to provide a great life, home, etc. and now I am going to end up with less time with my kids AND giving her more money as a result.

[jmrslc]

... .not sacrificing too much in hopes on getting a quick 'deal'.

This is the part giving me heartburn.  I actually feel like she is doing ok with the rest.  I feel like she is trying to get compromises in place just to keep things moving and THAT will end up biting me.

FWIIW, I am selling my (dream) house.  I am cancelling extras, cutting back.  I am very fortunate to have a rental property with very very low holding costs that I am going to be able to get into.  I am probably selling some of my "toys", and may trade my car in for something cheap and reliable.  As a businessman, cash flow is king.  If I lost my job today, I would be in a WORLD of hurt.

I have given her a total of $4900 in the last 15 days (towards child support/maintenance).  The first $2900 was signed and agreed to as "pre-payment towards maintenance/child support" via attorneys.  The subsequent one is the one that worries me since my attorney recommended it, but there was nothing signed & agreed to.  I guess I could stop payment on it... .

So she uses a nanny?  And she's worked full time previously? 

She uses a nanny, AND had 3 half-days of "pre-school" for Mommy's mornings out... .(reduced to two now -- unilateral decision on her part).  She went back to work for four months full time $70k/yr.  Once she found out about the affair, one of the attorneys told her about the state statute about not imputing income on the "primary parent" when calculating child support (confirmed by my attorney and reading the statute myself), she cut her hours to 16/wk.

This won't be a permanent alimony/maintenance case.  We have only been married 3.5 years.  There is a pending bill that would extend maintenance, but it won't be in effect since our case was filed in July.  The temporary maintenance is what worries me, as it is EXACTLY what is causing her to drag this out.  From whenever the court begins the maintenance period through final orders, I will pay 40% of my income minus 50% of hers (open question as to what # they will use for her).  Bottom line, this is pushing child support and maintenance to the ~$5k/month range.

Even though state statute says they can't take more than 40% of my gross, this number is higher (and doesn't consider the monthly obligations).  Bottom line, I had to sell my dream house, and will be leveraging my credit cards as well.

She has more education and certifications than I do, and can make a VERY good living (in a field that is in short supply of qualified individuals).  I hope the judge sees that and doesn't give her  ~22 months (until my youngest is 30 months) of a free ride.

That may make it easier to get a 'deal' now but the downside is it would cement into place a new 'normal' for your child, very minimal time with father.  Court puts a lot of weight on the parenting history and may be reluctant to make significant changes later, as my lawyer stated to me, for fear of 'upsetting' the child.  (I wish I could remember whether I retorted back, "What if my son is upset because the order isn't changed?"

This is exactly my fear... .

[jmrslc]

From following this board in the past, I picked up on a few generalities:

1.   Once the lawyers get involved, things really start to get screwed up.

2.  "collaborative" divorce model tends not to work because of the BPD in ability/unwillingness/inconsistency to abide by agreements.

3.   Psych Evals seem to carry a lot more weight in our heads (because we want the craziness to be exposed for all the world to see) yet, more often than not, their impact gets marginalized thru the process in which the evals are often administered by some mediocere run-of-the-mill evaluator whose going thru the motions, in a system that just grinds.

4.  Hence, my bias was toward the mediation mode., because at least those attorneys tend to "get it", and have some training, awareness, and competency as it relates to high conflict couples and pds.

5.  The BPD can thwart all of the above, as their sense of entitlement, manifested in all-or-nothing thinking, gets played out over and over again.  And when all else fails, creating a sense of chaos becomes their all too familiar base of dysregulated comfort, as others around them get spun around in the web of their whirlwind.

6.  As LNL suggested, alternative professional roles, to the traditional adversarial divorce process, such as "parenting coordinator" or guardian ad litum can provide more of a middle-of-the-road structured approach down the avenue you pursue, especially as it pertains to "keeping your eye on the ball".

7.  :)on't count on it, but remember, even BPDs are capable of "momentes of lucidity" in terms of grasping their own destructive impact upon others and themselves as a consequence of their mental-emotional wonkiness.

I'm hearing some concerns expressed about your L being up to the task.  Maybe.  Of course, you'll be the one most invested and likely the one working the hardest.  So conserve your energy and plod along prudently as you begin to build your case, and when the time comes to put your cards on the table.

I like the idea of deposition for precisely the reasons LNL cited.  Now, it may require lots of leg work in preparing your line of inquiry and getting them to open their mouths and expose whats inside their crazy heads, which if they are high functioning and manipulative can outplay the psych evaluator and testing, when you have a run-of-the mill court process going on.

But the legwork and prep may be key.  I dunno.  Forgive my verbosity.  If you very systematically, just like wrting a term paper and re-editing several times before submission, get either free or minimal consultations with at least 3 other Ls, spread like a week or weeks apart as you refine your line of thinking in how you'd like to see the deposition unfold.

YOu have the inside information.  YOu KNOW the BS and trauma drama.  From being on these boards, you have become more familiar and grounded in the type of whacked out dynamics the BPD has played out.  As you begin to recollect and name these atrocities , you can list them out and structure your deposition.  As you consult with other Ls, your recall of the specific entanglements will become clearer... .and then its a matter of having her talk about them.  If the deposition taking is carefully prepared, it can start as relatively mild and inquisitive.  And then when you start to get to What the hecks, you can sorta lay back and be a witness to whatever BS comes out of her mouth.  And then on to the next What the heck.  And then on to the next What the heck.  And so on... .

A note of caution:  My mantra inside my kaput marriage, is two wrongs don't make a right, and internally above all else i value peace and harmony... .which sometimes, paradoxically we have to fight for and get bloodied as a result.  As you begin to untangle the many layers upon layers, of a particular What the heck dynamic... .because it was / is part of your negative attachment, its very likely to be re-traumatizing and veeeerrrrryyy surreal.  Hence take care.  Establish a foundation of self-care as a routine in your habitual organizational behavior, which you'll eventually be able to model for your children.  I know my healing won't likely won't happen until my divorce is final... .and I have reorganized my life around a whole another set of energies.

Good luck, stay the course, thru the grind.  Hope this might help.

Thanks, SOT.

-J

[ForeverDad]

I do worry about hurting her feelings (or the personal friend who is related to her).  She is giving me a lot of time and energy, which makes it hard to switch... .

The one thing that I keep coming back to is that she has a vested interest in the outcome (more so than random L in the yellow pages).  She has put a lot of time, energy, and effort into this.

Interesting... .I've had one lawyer since 2006, going on 8 years.  Just this summer my lawyer told me way back in 2009 that a magistrate who handled our case (and bungled it) told my lawyer to withdraw, that he had become personally vested in the outcome.  My lawyer always said a lawyer who is emotionally tangled in the case can't stay objective and do a good job.  Yet he did stick with me.

At one point I did check into another lawyer, one recommended.  That lawyer was a cold fish and I never went back.  You are the one to decide whether you're comfortable with your representation.

I am scared I will make the switch, spend the money, and get no better an outcome.

We all fretted about that.  Use your best informed judgment.  Reserve for yourself the right to periodically reassess and reconsider all prior decisions, promises, etc.

I already feel it is unfair that I worked my tail off to provide a great life, home, etc. and now I am going to end up with less time with my kids AND giving her more money as a result.

Sadly, the court process is not about fairness.  It's a judicial system, not a justice system.

Oh, and don't volunteer to pay your wife's legal fees.  That would be an open invitation to rack up the fees and delay endlessly.  Yes, she probably filed seeking you to foot her bills, but the best outcome would be for her to pay her own bills out of the marital assets.  That's how it worked in my case.

[jmrslc]

I do worry about hurting her feelings (or the personal friend who is related to her).  She is giving me a lot of time and energy, which makes it hard to switch... .

The one thing that I keep coming back to is that she has a vested interest in the outcome (more so than random L in the yellow pages).  She has put a lot of time, energy, and effort into this.

Interesting... .I've had one lawyer since 2006, going on 8 years.  Just this summer my lawyer told me way back in 2009 that a magistrate who handled our case (and bungled it) told my lawyer to withdraw, that he had become personally vested in the outcome.  My lawyer always said a lawyer who is emotionally tangled in the case can't stay objective and do a good job.  Yet he did stick with me.

At one point I did check into another lawyer, one recommended.  That lawyer was a cold fish and I never went back.  You are the one to decide whether you're comfortable with your representation.

I am scared I will make the switch, spend the money, and get no better an outcome.

We all fretted about that.  Use your best informed judgment.  Reserve for yourself the right to periodically reassess and reconsider all prior decisions, promises, etc.

I already feel it is unfair that I worked my tail off to provide a great life, home, etc. and now I am going to end up with less time with my kids AND giving her more money as a result.

Sadly, the court process is not about fairness.  It's a judicial system, not a justice system.

Oh, and don't volunteer to pay your wife's legal fees.  That would be an open invitation to rack up the fees and delay endlessly.  Yes, she probably filed seeking you to foot her bills, but the best outcome would be for her to pay her own bills out of the marital assets.  That's how it worked in my case.

She has definitely filed asking the courts to assign me the legal debt.  My hope is that if they award me more of the debt (especially with her multiple changes in attorneys) that I will also be able to keep more of the assets. 

[livednlearned]

The one thing that I keep coming back to is that she has a vested interest in the outcome (more so than random L in the yellow pages).  She has put a lot of time, energy, and effort into this.

That's not the same thing as being a good L.

I've had mechanics who put a lot of time, energy, and effort into my car, and still can't fix the problem. That doesn't make them good mechanics.

The fact your L is advising you to ask for no overnights even before you've begun to negotiate is worrisome. Right there, that says your L is trying your case like a normal divorce, thinking it's just a wackier kind of normal divorce. It isn't. Your ex has a disorder, and if your L understood the disorder, she would strategize around it. The achilles heel for BPD in court is entitlement, rage, and lying. There are tools to bring those pathologies to light. Your job is to aim high and use tools and time to flush those pathologies out. If you concede too early, you dig a bigger hole than the one you started with. That's what legal precedent is about -- human conflict is messy, and courts would rather look at stuff that preceded, especially if it's something you consented to. It makes it easier for them to make decisions. "Mr. Jmrsic consented to no overnights. Now he is asking for overnights, even though the kids are adapting and nothing has changed. Therefore, schedule stays the same."

It's possible that you can advocate for yourself and get your L to up her game, but your achilles heel (as a non fresh out of an abusive marriage) is likely a combination of passivity and guilt. This may be the hardest thing you do in your life, and you need to bring your A game. And lots of us don't have an A game fresh out of the r/s.

[jmrslc]

She just called me, I answered... .



She wanted to know if I was busy and could talk.  I told her I was a conf call (you could hear my other phone on speaker).  She was not callous, but rather sounded like she wanted to talk with me... .

I am afraid today is recycle [attempt] day... .

<sigh>   At a minimum, I know a tongue lashing is expected.  I am going to record the call using my work phone as a .wav file.  We are in a one-party state, so totally legal. 

[SeekerofTruth]

Keep it simple.  Keep your cards close to the chest.  Write out 1 or 3 meaningful sentences that have a neutral intent which shows her respect.  NOTHING ELSE.  Memorize.  Repeat.  Keep it simple.  Keep your cards close to the chest.  Keep going to back to the 1, 2, 3 meaninful sentences with neutral intent.  Over and over again.

If she tries to seduce you, apologizes, or you start to get weak in the knees... .look down and away with an "aw shucks... .", and slowy shake your head back and forth as if nonverbally communicating "nada" "nope"... .and say "I dunno... ." then go back to the 1,2,3 meaningful neutral sentences.

Above all else... .practice your para-linguistics, body language... .And very much ACT and PORTRAY urself as a simple, down to earth, caring person.  Don't do the eye gaze, look slightly askance.  YOUR TONE OF VOICE keep it soft, neutral, gentle, disarming. If she switches to nasty... .have your exit game plan in place and exit, respectfully... .bet get the F out of the entrapment.  YOu will feel better about exercising this type of discipline.

You are disengaging from her.  Don't worry, the hellfire will come again... .as is the pattern.  Adhere to your role.

IN the background, continue to work ur butt off.  In the interactions, soft and gentle.  If she gets nasty-exit calmly, give a chance to calm down a bit and revisit the conversation later.  thank you, good-bye.  walk softly... .

IMO

[jmrslc]

Am I a complete idiot for even going over there?  There are probably 100 things that could go wrong and I am struggling to come up with any that can go right (aside from getting some time with my kids).  I guess I will also see where her cards are on the table.

She made it VERY clear on the phone that there is no chance for her and I, that I had the most egregious affair ever, and that it is unforgivable... .

Still debating taking in my voice recorder just so I can rebut any false accusations... .

-J

[livednlearned]

Am I a complete idiot for even going over there?  There are probably 100 things that could go wrong and I am struggling to come up with any that can go right (aside from getting some time with my kids).  I guess I will also see where her cards are on the table.

She made it VERY clear on the phone that there is no chance for her and I, that I had the most egregious affair ever, and that it is unforgivable... .

Still debating taking in my voice recorder just so I can rebut any false accusations... .

-J

Um, yeah. Take your voice recorder.

[jmrslc]

Am I a complete idiot for even going over there?  There are probably 100 things that could go wrong and I am struggling to come up with any that can go right (aside from getting some time with my kids).  I guess I will also see where her cards are on the table.

She made it VERY clear on the phone that there is no chance for her and I, that I had the most egregious affair ever, and that it is unforgivable... .

Still debating taking in my voice recorder just so I can rebut any false accusations... .

-J

Um, yeah. Take your voice recorder.

I took it, never turned it on.  It got a bit hairy at the end, but nothing too terrible.  The worst thing I said was that I had met with several attorneys and what my ex is telling me doesn't jive with what I am being told.  I also said that if we can't agree, then I guess a judge will have to decide.  I did show my cards in that I said I want overnights with my oldest son, but that is no surprise as my attorney communicated that to hers today (and ex brought it up).  She has an elaborate, well-prepared, "thorough" parenting plan that she has put together that they plan to present to me where I will get ZERO overnights until my YOUNGEST (8mo) is 3yo... .  This would mean my oldest would be almost 5 before he would spend the night at my house.  She said (and made quite a few cracks about how incompetent my attorney was) that her attorney has assured her that courts DO NOT split children this close in age (18mo) and that no overnights will occur until the youngest reaches the appropriate age.  She then said she wanted permanent maintenance until my youngest was three.  I have already posted on Avvo, and will talk with my attorney tomorrow.  I did tell her if she keeps telling me my attorney is incompetent, then perhaps I should go hire one of the best.  Probably not something I should have said, but she was pushing all of my buttons.

They want to present this "elaborate" proposal to then demonstrate to the judge that they "tried in good faith" and that I am "unreasonable and unwilling to negotiate".

If anything, at least I got to see her hand tonight... .  I don't think anything was said that materially hurts me (A LOT was said that emotionally hurts me).

I posted three separate questions on Avvo tonight.  If anything significantly differs from what my attorney is telling me, I may switch.  The one thing that gives me heartburn is how much of my attorney's communication to my ex's attorney is shared with my ex.  She is quoting things and citing things.  I am not getting that same level of transparency, which makes me wonder if my attorney is sparing me the details, dealing with it for me, or if she is getting flustered (which is what my ex said tonight -- that they challenged her to find a single precedent on splitting the children on overnights and she couldn't find one).

Frustrated,

J

[ForeverDad]

She has an elaborate, well-prepared, "thorough" parenting plan that she has put together that they plan to present to me where I will get ZERO overnights until my YOUNGEST (8mo) is 3yo... .  This would mean my oldest would be almost 5 before he would spend the night at my house.  She said (and made quite a few cracks about how incompetent my attorney was) that her attorney has assured her that courts DO NOT split children this close in age (18mo) and that no overnights will occur until the youngest reaches the appropriate age.  She then said she wanted permanent maintenance until my youngest was three.

They want to present this "elaborate" proposal to then demonstrate to the judge that they "tried in good faith" and that I am "unreasonable and unwilling to negotiate".

What a crock.  Did I just write that?  {Sigh}  I'm going to have to step away before I get my hands smacked for overreacting.

What she is claiming is so so so incredible, yet not surprising at all, this is typical BPD/NPD entitlement and dictatorial control.  Maybe there are courts in the country that would grant her an order like that but I don't know where they are.  Virtually all courts would not deny overnight visits unless there was basis such as abuse, neglect or endangerment.  I can think of only one possible reason overnights might be restricted and that's if she makes allegations and the court wants to find out first from the local children's services agency just how Dangerous you are.  Yikes, don't tell her that, don't give her any ideas.  Everything she said/offered was totally unreasonable, mere bread crumbs.  My ex had similar entitled perceptions.  Court brushed them aside.  Always remember, the real authority is the Judge, not your children's mother.

She is speaking from her position of perceived power and control, setting highly unreasonable, even onerous, terms.  Sorry, but you are not powerless or timid father, or you shouldn't be, no matter how much she has convinced you otherwise.

Yes, the court is generally very reluctant to split the children, but just because your younger child is young is no reason to virtually block your parenting for the next two to three years.  Were their offers in writing?  Get it in writing so you have something to hand to the judge to show how unreasonable their offers were, not your response.  As I said, barring substantiated allegations I can't imagine the judge setting a temp order as drastic and obstructive as what she is dictating.

Has anyone been able to tell you what typical temporary orders are in your local area?  Be prepared to fight for at least that much when you go before the judge.  Yes, courts prefer deals, they believe it reduces the conflict, quite true with reasonably normal people, but news flash she's not reasonably normal and so most likely the judge will have to make an order.  (Be prepared that her lawyer will probably make one final but slightly better offer just before you walk into the courtroom on hearing day.  The slight improvement may sound like angels playing harps but the judge is still likely to order better terms than even that last ditch offer.)

Still, I do suggest you record any private contact with her.  Even if nothing happened, she could still make allegations and they'd have to respond as though they might be true.  It hard to prove you didn't do something.  And what if she hurts herself and then claims you did it?  Even if it seems ridiculous, record just in case.  If she doesn't make allegations then a few months from now you can discard them.  But for now see recordings as a special form of insurance, your Stay Out Of Jail Free card, hopefully never needed.

[livednlearned]

Jmrsic,

Do you understand why you went over there?

[jmrslc]

Jmrsic,

Do you understand why you went over there?

I'm still trying to figure that out.  I think I was naïve enough that she might actually have something worth entertaining, And she had appealed to my "what is best for the kids" side.

Her offers include things like joint holidays and things of that nature.  A judge will obviously split those and rotate them.

A part of me wanted to see the boys, and frankly I miss her too (the old her, or rather what I wanted her to be).  She was super sweet for two hours.  That time with my boys was well worth it.  Once they were in bed, everything changed... .

Interestingly enough it was the first time she had worn her wedding ring and engagement ring in two months... . 

[jmrslc]

What she is claiming is so so so incredible, yet not surprising at all, this is typical BPD/NPD entitlement and dictatorial control.  Maybe there are courts in the country that would grant her an order like that but I don't know where they are.  Virtually all courts would not deny overnight visits unless there was basis such as abuse, neglect or endangerment.  I can think of only one possible reason overnights might be restricted and that's if she makes allegations and the court wants to find out first from the local children's services agency just how Dangerous you are.  Yikes, don't tell her that, don't give her any ideas.  Everything she said/offered was totally unreasonable, mere bread crumbs.  My ex had similar entitled perceptions.  Court brushed them aside.  Always remember, the real authority is the Judge, not your children's mother.

FD,

I guess I should share the detail of her "generous" offer.  I must say, between my guilt due to my choices and her absolute confidence in the outcome, I have re-read these 100 times and asked myself if I could live with it for a few years... .

2 dinner dates (i.e. 4-8p) per week

One weekend day (10 hours) to correspond with her work shift (free daycare for her)

A floating breakfast or lunch (where she would bring them to me for an hour or so) every two weeks

One additional four hour "floating" block once per month

No overnights or overnight consideration until s8mo is 3yo.

I guess I worry about getting in there and the judge:

a) Deciding not to split the children until my youngest is 30 months.  With a 28 (almost 29) month old and an 8 month old, this one concerns me.

b) getting less time than the ~18 hours per week she is proposing above

c) It looking like she tried to come up with some super fair and reasonable offer and I am the jerk who just wants more

She emailed me last night:

"Are you going to entertain my offer? If not, then I will stop my attorney from wasting time, energy and money drafting it tomorrow."

I guess that would help with my concerns about looking like a jerk for not accepting her offer .

I will talk with my L today.  Two of my posts were responded two on Avvo.  I am toast on the financial front.  She has ZERO duty to work until my youngest is 30 months.  Period.  No ifs, ands, or buts.  This has been consistent across multiple Ls and my L was HOPING to argue that she was working and quit in bad faith.  One of the responders on Avvo was a former judge.

The other response on Avvo is why this whole process sucks, and why I would consider accepting an offer. 

An offer like this = no longer an unknown.

The other response indicated that they have seen the full spectrum of very minimal supervised visitation all the way through splitting the children altogether (parent A gets one, parent B gets the other).  He basically said, no way to know what that judge will say; he has extreme latitude.

[GaGrl]

2 dinner dates (i.e. 4-8p) per week

One weekend day (10 hours) to correspond with her work shift (free daycare for her)

A floating breakfast or lunch (where she would bring them to me for an hour or so) every two weeks

One additional four hour "floating" block once per month

No overnights or overnight consideration until s8mo is 3yo.

WAY too much is "iffy" and undefined in this proposal.  She retains all control.  She will be able to interfere with your life and schedule at her whim. 

What value(s) are you placing on your ability to parent your children?  That is important, because it becomes your guiding principles as you move through this.

For example, "I have been an involved, caring and loving father since my children were born, and I am fully capable of continuing to parent them in this way.  My children need this for their well-being and development.  This means I need consistent, scheduled, extended time with them on a defined and regular basis.  I can show in multiple ways that I can and will proivde age-appropriate care for them in the same way I have done since their births."

Then proivde a parenting plan that demonstrates these values and principles.  When you are challenged, return to your values and guidling principles.

[KateCat]

Interestingly enough it was the first time she had worn her wedding ring and engagement ring in two months... . 

Could her unspoken objective (including hammering you with the most onerous scenarios of your future should you proceed to divorce) be to bring you back into the marriage?

Men posting on forums like this one sometimes mention scenarios where their mentally unhealthy wives initiate court actions against them (including criminal abuse cases) with the firm expectation that the man will return to the relationship (more subjugated than ever). If he fights in court and escapes the woman's control, she is then stunned into begging him to return. I wonder if your wife could be that woman and if, consequently, you need to be really, really sure now about what you want . . .

[ForeverDad]

2 dinner dates (i.e. 4-8p) per week

One weekend day (10 hours) to correspond with her work shift (free daycare for her)

A floating breakfast or lunch (where she would bring them to me for an hour or so) every two weeks

One additional four hour "floating" block once per month

No overnights or overnight consideration until s8mo is 3yo.

WAY too much is "iffy" and undefined in this proposal.  She retains all control.  She will be able to interfere with your life and schedule at her whim. 

What value(s) are you placing on your ability to parent your children?  That is important, because it becomes your guiding principles as you move through this.

For example, "I have been an involved, caring and loving father since my children were born, and I am fully capable of continuing to parent them in this way.  My children need this for their well-being and development.  This means I need consistent, scheduled, extended time with them on a defined and regular basis.  I can show in multiple ways that I can and will provide age-appropriate care for them in the same way I have done since their births."

Then provide a parenting plan that demonstrates these values and principles.  When you are challenged, return to your values and guiding principles.

Excellent response by gagrl, especially about your urgent need to ensure the court knows your goal to be an involved parent, not sidelined as a mere occasional visitor.  Same for KateCat, ponder what was ex trying to do, lure you back or confuse you to keep dictating your parenting?

Yes, family court judges have judicial discretion, flexibility in their decisions.  My belief is that's one reason why judges want to keep the submitted information to the court to a minimum, in my case the judge kept defaulting to the Mother largely because there was little presented that contradicted his initial default preference for Mother or revealed the extent of Mother's obstruction.  I recall one time I went to a hearing with ten or eleven issues on my list and only about three even got discussed, much less resolved. :'(

No overnights or overnight consideration until s8mo is 3yo.

That is the biggest glaring problem here. The other of course is the very reduced contact.  In short, everything.

Surely more than 99% of judges (my non-scientific estimate) would shoot her proposal down.  Even if you don't get what you ask the judge for, it can't be worse than the crumbs she's dictating.  Too often it seems that being 'reasonable' in our requests at court works against us.  How so?  As an example, if Ex wants 99% time and you ask for the typical non-primary parent schedule of about 15%-25%, there is a risk the judge could decide to "split the difference", giving you both less than you sought.  With that awareness, there's no harm in asking for more, such as 50%.  It's likely you won't get that, at least not at the start, so don't fret that you're not prepared for that much time or that asking for equal time is 'unfair' to your entitled ex.  Then if the judge does split the difference you'd be at the typical 15%-25% after all.  See?  She's won't be punished for seeking more time than she ought to get and neither will you.

Here's the guideline for children under 3 that was in effect in my county when my last order was made.  (Unfortunately a new schedule posted a year ago has more brief "visits" and fewer "overnights" - not sure why - but there are still overnights.)

Over the course of two weeks:

Week A, Tuesday  - Overnight

Week A, Friday     - Overnight (pick up and begin weekend)

Week A, Saturday - Overnight

Week A, Sunday   - Day visit   (end weekend and return)

Week B, Thursday - Overnight

In short, that's a normal alternate weekend and two overnights in between.  In all, that's FOUR overnights every two weeks.  I believe the frequent visits, more frequent then for older children, are in recognition that a baby or toddler's memories are shorter and therefore the separated periods are kept shorter.

She may not HAVE to work but you can still encourage her to work or at least not make it easier for her to avoid work, you're not a bad person for encouraging it.  For example, even though she doesn't have to work for a couple years you could encourage her to meanwhile get job training or get a 2 year degree (within 2 years, not stretched out across many years) so that when the kids over over 2.5 years old and she DOES have to work then she'll already be qualified for a career of some sort.  Yeah, as if she would ever voluntarily agree to plan ahead and do what makes sense... .

Footnote:  There is a real possibility that she will enjoy not having to work outside her home and decide she should find a new guy and pop a few more babies out so she always has a baby or toddler in the house.  That's her choice, nothing you can do about her subsequent relationship choices.  All you can do is try your best to get her off your back financially as quickly as possible.  Child support would continue after the youngest is 2.5 years old but at least the spousal support or alimony would end then.  (Beware of having a 1-2 year divorce as is typical around here and then you begin short term alimony.  Since it was not a long marriage, try to keep alimony limited to age 2.5 of your youngest.)  And don't let her con you into one last fling and then you have another baby on the way.  It's complicated enough as it is without a third child to reset the age issue!

[jmrslc]

And don't let her con you into one last fling and then you have another baby on the way.  It's complicated enough as it is without a third child to reset the age issue!

I am getting snipped... .Then we can try for that third child as much as she wants (added for comic relief).

I found an attorney on avvo that not only responded to my question, but suggested I read splitting... .  I am going to go to the initial status conference on Monday with my current L, but this guy's understanding of BPD/NPD and the fact that he listened to me and recommended that book already makes me think he "gets it" more than the average L.  I tried to lend splitting to my L and she isn't interested... .;/

I do think that the courts are going to award more than she is tossing at me by way of breadcrumbs, so it looks like we are going that route.

-J

[ForeverDad]

Do consider her offers and respond politely.  You do want to show the court you're trying to be reasonable as far as your own actions and negotiations.

If you do make an offer to her, set a time limit so the offer expires before you go to court.  But since she's so far off the beaten path thus far, I don't know if even that is wise, you could make a better offer - better than hers - back to her but it could still be a lousy deal for you.

[momtara]

Don't be intimidated by her.  If you show that you are involved and loving, you deserve much more than what she is offering. 

[jmrslc]

Son's soccer tomorrow cancelled due to weather.

I sent her this:

Since soccer was cancelled, I would like to take s2.5 to breakfast tomorrow.  Can he and I hang out from 7:30 to 8:30 or 9a?  We will just follow our former routine of chocolate milk/coffee, breakfast burritos/potatoes, and looking for trains. 

INSTANT no, wouldn't respond when I asked if there was any reason why... . 

[SeekerofTruth]

  WAY too much is "iffy" and undefined in this proposal.  She retains all control.  She will be able to interfere with your life and schedule at her whim.   

This is what you are up against.  It is how they do it.  Masterfully, experts.  And then comes the chaos.

  What value(s) are you placing on your ability to parent your children?  That is important, because it becomes your guiding principles as you move through this 

GET REAL WITH YOUR SELF.  Know your focus.  Get clear.  Do the inner work. Believe in yourself.

Dream it.  Pray it.  Visualize it.  Become that. Practice that.  Ask God for help if u need to.   Don't get fooled by the BS that gets thrown on you.

[SeekerofTruth]

jm

Have you obtained a copy of the book "splitting" yet, as suggested by FD?

My local library even had a copy of it.  It does provide a framework for dealing with some of the dynamics involved.  Live and learn... .

[Ishenuts]

Has you lawyer recommended a GAL? We had one assigned from the beginning. My lawyer saw clearly what I was up against. Our GAL wrote our parenting plan. We both sought sole custody (ask for the moon... .) and we ended up with 50/50.

I'd be a little concerned that your lawyer refused to read Splitting... .why? She'd probably have to charge you for the time it takes to read it, but it will help in your case and many more in her future. I, unfortunately, didn't read it until after the divorce. It would've been invaluable. But the post divorce stuff in the book still applies. And with a BPD/NPD there will always be post divorce issues.

I laughed when I read your wife's comments about your lawyer. My uNPDexH would say the same type of crap... .trying to make us feel unsure of ourselves, and our representation. My exH even told me once that his lawyer "was so sure of the outcome (in his favor, of course) that he set a "cap" for his charges". My lawyer is still laughing over that one! Remember, they are liars. They will use anything and everything to keep us off guard.

Good luck, especially with getting all the time possible with your sons.

[SeekerofTruth]

   Interestingly enough it was the first time she had worn her wedding ring and engagement ring in two months... .   

I know what you mean.  I think that may symbolize the push-pull, tugging back and forth.  One month after she left and retained an atty, and then 2 weeks after her atty "mistakenly" filled... .but she wouldn't retract... .she texted me pictures of her wearing her "beautiful ring".

  She has a plan.  I will get ZERO overnights until my YOUNGEST (8mo) is 3yo... .  This would mean my oldest would be almost 5 before he would spend the night at my house.  She said no overnights will occur until the youngest reaches the x age.  she want(s) permanent maintenance until my youngest was three.   

  They want to then demonstrate to the judge that they "tried in good faith" and that I am "unreasonable and unwilling to negotiate". 

I her where she is coming from.

You got some great feedback.  If an atty wants to charge me for reading a book for the first time (splitting), I'd want a different atty.  I'd prefer an atty who has a genuine professional growth orientation or I'd want one a little bit ahead of the curve (has read the book, has some familiarity).  I don't like the vibe as it pertains to their lack of transparency in contrast to your atty's approach because it adds another layer of frustration.  Bpds are great at indirectly being around further lack of harmony between others.  In fact, extending the "splitting" that finds other people supposedly on the same page, splitting, as oppossed to unified.

 

She is speaking from her position of perceived power and control, setting highly unreasonable, even onerous, terms.   you are not powerless or timid father no matter how much she has convinced you otherwise.

   consider, respond politely.  show the court you're trying to be reasonable as far as your own actions and negotiations.  If you do make an offer to her, set a time limit so the offer expires before you go to court. 

  Don't be intimidated.  Show you are involved and loving, you deserve much more than what she is offering. 

-----------------

And then I shudder to think, of yet another flippity-flop, push-pull tugging back and forth dynamic of far greater magnitude, volatility, significance and mind numbing paralysis:

  Could her unspoken objective (including hammering you with the most onerous scenarios of your future should you proceed to divorce) be to bring you back into the marriage?

Men sometimes mention scenarios where mentally unhealthy wives initiate court actions against them (including criminal abuse cases) with the firm expectation that the man will return to the relationship (more subjugated than ever). If he fights in court and escapes the woman's control, she is then stunned into begging him to return. I wonder if your wife could be that (way) and if, consequently, you need to be really, really sure now about what you want . .

Keep your eye on the ball J.  Keep steady.  I like how you were able to contact an atty with some background who is familiar in splitting and actually LISTENED to you. And as a male, he may have a particular sensitivity to fathers in divorce court.  Get rest.  Eat well.  Get some exercise if you can.  And give yourself a pat on the back from all of us.  Keep asking the great questions and getting informed feedback.  Keep up the good work as it pertains to the grind.

"Good luck, especially with getting all the time possible with your sons". 

[jmrslc]

Thanks all.  I am 75% sure I am switching Ls.  Initial status conference being Monday, I am not going to try to get a new L up to speed by then (obviously), and I DO want this to start moving forward.  The only things that the ISC can yield here:

Dates for temp & perm orders

child or psych evals

Emergency order requestss (domestic violence, documented substance issues, egregious parental alienation)

I have been told by every L that this is more of a formality to ensure we have our financials in order, etc.  I am looking at it as a job interview.  If my L looks like she knows her stuff and I walk out of there pleasantly surprised, then maybe I stay.  Otherwise, I have that consult scheduled. 

Tomorrow will suck.  Weather here is icky, and I don't get to have soccer (or other alternatives I suggested) with my boy.  I spent the last two hours putting together to-do lists to keep me busy.  I am also reading splitting .