Is It Time? Help Me Decide...

[radioguitarguy]

Our 29 yr old DS, who lives on our downstairs couch has Husky D which is Medicaid and food stamps. He works part time and makes about $250 a week. We don't charge him rent, we pay for his cell phone, car and car insurance. The beater car we bought for $2,000 is now in his name and so is the car insurance. Honestly, he's doing pretty good which we all hope will continue but... .I feel that he's just spinning his wheels.

Is it time for him to begin looking for a full time job with benefits? How do you know if a borderline, with a lot of anxiety(he is on meds but not seeing a therapist) is ready to go out into the real world? His track record stinks when it comes to full time work! There is no way he can move out, pay his cellphone bill and car insurance on $250 per week. Of course if he scores a full time job, there goes Medicaid and food stamps. How do you know when it's time? I'm afraid that if we push him into the deep end, he will crash and burn and then what?

I've been working with my own therapist on this one but I would like to hear what the "bpdfamily" has to say. I anxiously await your feedback. Thank You!

RGG

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[lbjnltx]

Has he learned and been successfully using new coping skills since his last attempt at full time work?  If yes... .then perhaps he can try adding a few hours to his weekly schedule where he is and see if he can handle it.  If he has not matured, doesn't have new and successful skills to call upon in times of stress... .will the outcome likely be the same if he goes to full time?

[griz]

I think I would build slowly on his successes.  I remember reading an article on BPD that said that very often once a person seems to be making progress, family and friends can push to hard or think things are all better and by doing that they set them up for failure.  Have you spoken with him about what his plan is going forward?  Maybe the first step is talking about it.

Griz

[Fay]

Hi,

Trying to find a full time job with benefits is hard for anyone right now and very stressful.  I agree with Griz we can set them up to fail. 

Why not help him set up a budget with the $250 he makes a week to pay for his cell phone, insurance, car ect.  It might help him feel more in control of his life.  Maybe he is ready to go back to school?  Does the medicaid pay for therapy?  Asking him might be a good way to approach him. 

My DD 29 lives with me and has a part time job, goes to therapy, pays for her own stuff.  She bought groceries last night and some flowers for me.  She is slowly coming to terms with her new way of life.  Living with me isn't going to be the end all.  I know she doesn't want to live me either at 29.  It is not to say she doesn't have high anxiety something so simple as asking her how she is can create havoc.  Yet, as I am re-learning and reading.  The book Overcoming BPD was recommended to me.  It is really good so far.  So much has changed with dx of BPD.  Yet, I know I have to change the way I think.  It is slow.  I say over and over... .WE are all doing the best we can.

Hope this helps

Fay

[js friend]

I think the first thing you should do is speak to your ds and see how he feels about how things are going.

As Fay suggests can you help him to budget the $ that he has. I have a friend who has suffered with anxiety for years and it has prevented her from doing many things she would love to do inc holding down a job.

Would  your ds consider Voluntary work? Voluntary places are often more empathetic than corporate employers. It could  be good basis for your d/s to build his self esteem and motivation.

My dd left home on her own accord when she was 17yo and is very successful in the "real world" paying her own bills, and buying her own food.

Now she has gd she is a mostly a very responsible mommy too. None of any of this I thought was possible when she lived at home.

It may have turned out differently if I had kicked her out as I planned once she turned 18yo.

[vivekananda]

Hi RGG!

Well all sounds positive at the moment... .next step eh?

I think that if he is not in treatment then it will be very hard and I wouldn't like the idea of even looking for FT work. I would be scared to set him up for failure.

Can you sit with him and discuss coping skills? What would you do if ... .how do you recognise you are getting anxious... .how do you avoid a difficult situation ... .that sort of stuff - if he can't come up with the answers, then perhaps he isn't ready.

I do like the suggestions of part time work and/or voluntary work as a way to trial the process, with the objective of FT work in the future.

What does your son think about it all? This could be a powerful learning opportunity for him.

cheers,

Vivek    

[radioguitarguy]

The more I think about this, the more I feel I'm the one who might have a problem. I am so afraid of confrontation that I find it incredibly difficult to approach him to try and set limits. Fantastic huh? A dad who gets all tongue tied when he tries to communicate with his borderline son about setting limits! His personality is so strong and his volume is so loud, that when I try to approach him(in wisemind) about anything semi serious, the volume goes up and starts getting defensive and then I usually forget what I had rehearsed to say. Maybe the memory of that first verbal confrontation 10 years ago when he threw a lamp at me and I had to call the police which resulted in a restraining order had something to do with it.

When all three of our kids were growing up my wife was the screamer and I was the easy going one who really didn't weigh in because I was afraid it would just add fuel to the fire... .you know, that whole "fear of confrontation thing." I guess I need to tell this all to my therapist so that maybe he can help me. It appears I don't know how to stand up for myself.

RGG

[ilusa26]

I and my husband have the same problem with our 29 year old daughter.  Fear of confrontation and fear of disappointing her.  I am trying small steps to set boundaries and say no.  My husband is still having difficult time with it.  Years of defying and shouting and screaming and breaking stuff.  She has never physically try to hurt us and doesnt blame anything on us.  But still we are afraid of her.  She did have 6 hospitalization for being suicidal.

I guess we need to work on getting ourselves stronger.

[radioguitarguy]

I and my husband have the same problem with our 29 year old daughter.  Fear of confrontation and fear of disappointing her.  I am trying small steps to set boundaries and say no.  My husband is still having difficult time with it.  Years of defying and shouting and screaming and breaking stuff.  She has never physically try to hurt us and doesnt blame anything on us.  But still we are afraid of her.  She did have 6 hospitalization for being suicidal.

I guess we need to work on getting ourselves stronger.

Yes, very similar indeed. Our ds has never been physical with either of us. He knows, without it even being said, he would be gone. He also knows that if he consistently yells, rages, or breaks stuff, we would call the police, although to his credit,most of the yelling and putting his fists through walls pretty much stopped about 2 years ago. I don't know about you but I'm 62 and I'm just getting tired of having to think about boundaries and validation and strategizing on how to approach him, yet I can't throw him out because, honestly, I don't think he'd survive and I don't know how I could live with that. It just seems to be a no win situation.

So he continues to sleep on our couch, deliver his papers, smoke his cigs and pot and play and write his music because I can't seem to find the emotional strength to help get him to the next level whatever it might be. I know I'm not doing right by him but at this point I'm just happy to have a quiet home.

[vivekananda]

I'm wondering if it mightn't be a good idea to look at that book on boundaries... .you know the one I mean? I am told it makes excellent sense. RGG our boundaries are to protect us. I know what you both mean about avoiding confrontations. My childhood was full of fighting and yelling and I will really go weak when there is the fear of confrontation, but I do feel more secure understanding boundaries.

Vivek    

[ilusa26]

Our daughter also doesnt yell or rage for last 3-4 years and i think its because of Abilify.

Last year she had part time job and she moved out.  She has been wanting to move back in but so far we have been able to talk her out of it.

For last two months, she has been at a RTC.  We end up financially supporting her because she doesnt have a job.  And she wont survive without our support.

Even knowing what is the right thing to do, we sometimes find it very hard to do.  We are trying to set up some boundaries but we are not strong enough to do more.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[qcarolr]

RGG - This is one of the hardest places we are, those of us with low-functioning adult kids with BPD. So hard to figure out the balance of what they need, what is making it too easy for them to not move forward, what would unnecesarily push them over the 'edge'. And how to keep on feeling OK with myself as a parent and person.

My dh and I are struggling greatly with this same question - though we have made some really hard choices to push things in different direction. Have to let go of the outcome -- all we can do is create opportunity. And my DD sure does not see the 'opportunity' value of our decisions for her. I signed the complaint that put her back in jail when exbf showed up at our door, and my gd8 had an anxiety attack. Her fears were from exbf being on our property. Our fears were DD not telling him to go away. And then he was at my door again early the next morning, drenched from staying the night somewhere nearby.  Reached my point of 'enough is enough'.

Now to stick to this. Dh and I talked last night about how hard, how painful, it is for us to keep her away from our house. What lengths do we have to go next? We have to take care of gd - we have custody of her for many years.

No answers from me - just lots of compassionate understanding.  There are so many our age (early 60's) with non-functioning adult kids living in the basement. And it is a hard world. And someday we will not be there to protect them from themselves anymore. What then? My greatest wish --- for more low housing that is affordable for our kids. The economics are just not there for this. Wish I could afford the rent or to buy a condo for my DD27. Would sure appease my struggle with not feeling guilty.

qcr  

[vivekananda]

How many parents here have bought their BPD child a condo/apartment or somesuch, only for it to be lost, wrecked and a waste of their money? How many of us oldies have lost their super to trying to care for their child with BPD? I know it was hearing these stories that helped me understand the importance of not funding my dd, of trying to help her be responsible for her decisions. Mind you, I am fortunate that she has not been on the streets - but there was a time I thought it possible.

To know the difference between being supportive or enabling is critical. We should not be saying should I buy my child this or that, should I kick my child out or whatever. The question is, what does my child need to be supported and will this enable him/her or encourage him/her to stand on her own two feet?

When our babies were learning to walk, we encouraged and let them fall down repeatedly before they learnt for themselves. We have to do the same for our adult children. A simplistic analogy, but that's how it is, isn't it? Am I being too harsh?

Vivek    

ps ilusa26, welcome to our boards here   I'll check to see if you have started your own thread here. If you haven't, can I encourage you to 'introduce yourself to we parents here, I'm sure there'd be lots ready to welcome you!

[radioguitarguy]

How many parents here have bought their BPD child a condo/apartment or somesuch, only for it to be lost, wrecked and a waste of their money? How many of us oldies have lost their super to trying to care for their child with BPD? I know it was hearing these stories that helped me understand the importance of not funding my dd, of trying to help her be responsible for her decisions. Mind you, I am fortunate that she has not been on the streets - but there was a time I thought it possible.

To know the difference between being supportive or enabling is critical. We should not be saying should I buy my child this or that, should I kick my child out or whatever. The question is, what does my child need to be supported and will this enable him/her or encourage him/her to stand on her own two feet?

When our babies were learning to walk, we encouraged and let them fall down repeatedly before they learnt for themselves. We have to do the same for our adult children. A simplistic analogy, but that's how it is, isn't it? Am I being too harsh?

Vivek    

ps ilusa26, welcome to our boards here   I'll check to see if you have started your own thread here. If you haven't, can I encourage you to 'introduce yourself to we parents here, I'm sure there'd be lots ready to welcome you!

Hi Vivek ... .

I think it's a simplistic analogy for most kids who don't suffer with BPD. We knew our 29ds was "different" when he was 7 or 8. His symptoms really didn't jump out until he was around 16 or 17. At that time my wife and I had no idea what we were up against until we began some heavy research. The BPD criteria then hit us right between the eyes. Basically, using the same parenting skills that we used with his older brother and younger sister didn't really take hold with our ds.

Your general question of, "What does my child need to be supported and will this enable him or support him to stand on his own two feet?" I think about this every day. When he was living out of the house with his ex girlfriend or couch surfing by himself, he simply didn't have the skills to live peacefully with other humans. He was asked to leave our house because he kept smoking in his bedroom. YET, why was he told to leave his latest living situation? Because he was smoking in the area where he slept? There was a small pile of cigarette butts in that area after he left. I saw a photo. IT IS UNBELIEVABLE TO ME HOW THIS DOES NOT REGISTER IN HIS BRAIN! Why does he get defensive when we suggest he wash his freakin' feet... .they're disgusting! Why does he throw away actual silverware, not plastic spoons or forks, but silverware!

Vivek , I know that buying a condo would be grade A enabling, but at this point as he muddles through his day to day routine, it's sad to watch him. He's 330 lbs and eats all the wrong foods, smokes 2 packs of cigs per day and feels like crap and he knows what he has to do. He just simply doesn't do it. We have been trying to help and support him for the last 10 years and now I'm worried what happens when we're gone? We've told our two other grown adult children that they DO NOT need to be responsible for him. As a parting thought, we've been thinking about beginning the process for "medical disability". I know it's hard and iffy but maybe it's time to give it a go.

RGG

[ilusa26]

Vivek ,  You have such good ideas.  You are able to think from wise mind v/s emotional mind. My goal going froward is to be able to do that.

I did start my thread in new/intro section.

[qcarolr]

RGG - tough place we are in. My dh and I ponder much the same things.

SSI - the US federal disability benefit program for those with no work record, no assets, no ability to work. It is small amount, opens doors for some other types of help perhaps. Maybe for subsidized housing vouchers or low-income apartment. He would be on his own financially for the most part if on this benefit. My DD27 has been trying to get it for many years. If she would participate and be open/honest with her mental health clinic she would get it quickly. Since she refuses any kind of therapy or treatment, there is not a written record to support her claim. She has applied 4 times since age 19. She has a hearing for this 4th application next month, though she might still be in jail which does not look good per her appeal lawyer. What a mess. Does you DS have medical/mental health care providers? Does he get any county benefits like medicaid or food stamps? Perhaps you could seek out a case worker in one of these agencies to help him do this application process. This could be a way for you to gently step back a bit in your direct care for his needs.

This is what we are trying to find the path for with our DD. To find ways to support her in doing for herself. Her thing is not cigarettes in the house, and no longer use of pot in the house. It is having her homeless male friends in the house. And her preference is for this activity to start at 9pm and go til noon the next day. The backlash of us saying NO to this has been great.

She does not get the problems with this -- just does not seem to get it at all. I struggle to figure out how to be validating and emotionally supportive, and stick to my values and boundaries. In many ways, I think she prefers the homeless life. Unclear to me to what extent substance use/abuse is involved for her. She also does couch surfing as well as sleeping outside. She has been transient in this way since before she ever was really "homeless" in 2010. When we pursued custody of our gd8 back in 2006, we were putting our case together that she was a transient, even though using our address for mail and storage. She was gone more than she was there.

So not allowing DD to be in our home really did not influence her choices very much. But we were providing other kinds of support for her - cell phone, clothing, some food, help supporting her in getting medical/mental health and county benefits. I think I will step away from helping her with these things too. Will suggest she can find an advocate connected with the jail to help her get her needs met. I do not know this system - they do not want to talk to me. She is an adult.

Letting go - hard to do when doubt her ability to survive. Well, she has proven she can survive. Under her own rules and values. Certainly foreign to dh and my values.

Let us know how it is going as you work through all this with your DS.

qcr  

[vivekananda]

RGG it seems to me you feel stuck between a rock and a hard place ... .and definitely you are in a no win situation ... .

I would like to discuss this through with you. It is an important issue for all of us who worry about what will happen to our adult children in the future.

... .We knew our 29ds was "different" when he was 7 or 8. His symptoms really didn't jump out until he was around 16 or 17. At that time my wife and I had no idea what we were up against until we began some heavy research. The BPD criteria then hit us right between the eyes. Basically, using the same parenting skills that we used with his older brother and younger sister didn't really take hold with our ds.

You were ahead of me. I didn't even know BPD existed until about 2 years ago. When I discovered it, and joined this place here, I soon began to change my approach. My parenting skills were useless with my dd (now 32). So I have changed myself using as vehicles for that change, validation and boundary setting. Can I ask how far you have gone it that direction? I know my learning hasn't stopped. Basically I have been working on 'rewiring' how I think so as to make things like validation and boundary setting an automatic way of life, something I do without even thinking. My learning therefore hasn't finished and never will. Are you also immersed in your own learning, to make yourself a different type of parent? a more supportive and effective one? (No I am not saying you are not supportive or effective, I am acknowledging that we can all do better and we owe it to our children w BPD to do so)

... .He was asked to leave our house because he kept smoking in his bedroom. YET, why was he told to leave his latest living situation? Because he was smoking in the area where he slept? There was a small pile of cigarette butts in that area after he left. I saw a photo. IT IS UNBELIEVABLE TO ME HOW THIS DOES NOT REGISTER IN HIS BRAIN! Why does he get defensive when we suggest he wash his freakin' feet... .they're disgusting! Why does he throw away actual silverware, not plastic spoons or forks, but silverware!

I think we all know the answer to this. He does not use a 'wisemind'. He has been able to do what he wants and when he upsets the applecarts of others, the effect upon him hasn't been enough to get him to change his behaviour. Someone will save him and solve his problems. He is oblivious to the effect his behaviour has upon others. He hasn't had to be. He can always 'blame others' for his situation.

You may think this is simplistic too, but I am inclined to think of that frog that gets put into a cold pot of water and the water slowly heats up and before you know it the frog is cooking. So I see it with someone who continually pushes the boundaries and 'gets away with it'. Little by little the boundary means less and less as the person pushing the boundary continues to be saved from the effects of breaking the boundary. It's learned behaviour. Yes this is probably simplistic, but it's illustrative isn't it? I know my language can be clumsy, but I am trying to find the words to help us see more clearly.

... .I know that buying a condo would be grade A enabling, but at this point as he muddles through his day to day routine, it's sad to watch him.

We do what we feel we must. And perhaps that is what is at the core of this concern. When we do things for our children w BPD I think we need to consider the hard question: am I doing this for him/her or is it to help me feel better? If we feel guilty, or if we feel responsible, or if we feel the need to protect or rescue, then these are our needs. It is not helpful to us or to others to meet our needs 'at the expense' of others. This I think is the terrible dilemma at the core of being a parent of an adult child w BPD. We worry so for the future of our children, what will they do when we are gone etc.

When our dd was 18 and insisted on living 'independently' we bought her a 'condo'. She stayed there one night. We were lucky to be able to rent it and then sell it 5 years later. She had been with us when we chose it and said she wanted it. I am glad we did that then, and we didn't lose financially. If it had been now, I am sure it would be a different situation. When she had her last big 'meltdown' 2 years or so ago, we were very worried for her situation. She was in debt and we feared she would go under and be on the streets. Initially we put our hand in our pockets whenever we were asked. The situation was becoming unmanageable and we could see a future with her dependent on us supporting her to no good avail. We put boundaries in place. Basically, we would only pay for therapy. We were prepared for the worst. We thought she could return to drug dealing, go on the streets and goodness knows what. It didn't happen... .she got into the system in some way or another. She is still in debt, but she is doing well enough.

I think that for men it is more challenging because they see themselves as providers and problem solvers (women do too, but differently) so for my dh it was especially hard to put firm boundaries in place. But we did it and the result was better for everyone. We didn't 'rescue' her, our decision wasn't about us, but it was based upon our value of 'respect'. She was very angry when this happened and she did an excellent job of 'triangulating' dh and I but we more or less, stuck to our decision. We were always open to negotiation, but she needed to initiate that and take responsibility for her situation.

I would like to see you similarly at ease with the decisions you make with your ds. It is heartbreaking enough to be in our position, we owe it to ourselves to make decisions that are in our children's best interests and our own too.

sending you love RGG,

Vivek    

[radioguitarguy]

RGG - tough place we are in. My dh and I ponder much the same things.

SSI - the US federal disability benefit program for those with no work record, no assets, no ability to work. It is small amount, opens doors for some other types of help perhaps. Maybe for subsidized housing vouchers or low-income apartment. He would be on his own financially for the most part if on this benefit. My DD27 has been trying to get it for many years. If she would participate and be open/honest with her mental health clinic she would get it quickly. Since she refuses any kind of therapy or treatment, there is not a written record to support her claim. She has applied 4 times since age 19. She has a hearing for this 4th application next month, though she might still be in jail which does not look good per her appeal lawyer. What a mess. Does you DS have medical/mental health care providers? Does he get any county benefits like medicaid or food stamps? Perhaps you could seek out a case worker in one of these agencies to help him do this application process. This could be a way for you to gently step back a bit in your direct care for his needs.

This is what we are trying to find the path for with our DD. To find ways to support her in doing for herself. Her thing is not cigarettes in the house, and no longer use of pot in the house. It is having her homeless male friends in the house. And her preference is for this activity to start at 9pm and go til noon the next day. The backlash of us saying NO to this has been great.

She does not get the problems with this -- just does not seem to get it at all. I struggle to figure out how to be validating and emotionally supportive, and stick to my values and boundaries. In many ways, I think she prefers the homeless life. Unclear to me to what extent substance use/abuse is involved for her. She also does couch surfing as well as sleeping outside. She has been transient in this way since before she ever was really "homeless" in 2010. When we pursued custody of our gd8 back in 2006, we were putting our case together that she was a transient, even though using our address for mail and storage. She was gone more than she was there.

So not allowing DD to be in our home really did not influence her choices very much. But we were providing other kinds of support for her - cell phone, clothing, some food, help supporting her in getting medical/mental health and county benefits. I think I will step away from helping her with these things too. Will suggest she can find an advocate connected with the jail to help her get her needs met. I do not know this system - they do not want to talk to me. She is an adult.

Letting go - hard to do when doubt her ability to survive. Well, she has proven she can survive. Under her own rules and values. Certainly foreign to dh and my values.

Let us know how it is going as you work through all this with your DS.

qcr  

He does have Medicaid and food stamps under the Husky D program in CT which is under the heading of "help for low income adults." I contacted a SS Disability attorney and he told me that if he's working part time it does NOT help him getting approved. He told me that mental illness cases are helped greatly by doctor's support and if there's a way to eventually get a hearing from a judge, his chances are much better. Overall he thought it would be good idea to get the ball rolling.

[radioguitarguy]

RGG it seems to me you feel stuck between a rock and a hard place ... .and definitely you are in a no win situation ... .

I would like to discuss this through with you. It is an important issue for all of us who worry about what will happen to our adult children in the future.

... .We knew our 29ds was "different" when he was 7 or 8. His symptoms really didn't jump out until he was around 16 or 17. At that time my wife and I had no idea what we were up against until we began some heavy research. The BPD criteria then hit us right between the eyes. Basically, using the same parenting skills that we used with his older brother and younger sister didn't really take hold with our ds.

You were ahead of me. I didn't even know BPD existed until about 2 years ago. When I discovered it, and joined this place here, I soon began to change my approach. My parenting skills were useless with my dd (now 32). So I have changed myself using as vehicles for that change, validation and boundary setting. Can I ask how far you have gone it that direction? I know my learning hasn't stopped. Basically I have been working on 'rewiring' how I think so as to make things like validation and boundary setting an automatic way of life, something I do without even thinking. My learning therefore hasn't finished and never will. Are you also immersed in your own learning, to make yourself a different type of parent? a more supportive and effective one? (No I am not saying you are not supportive or effective, I am acknowledging that we can all do better and we owe it to our children w BPD to do so)

... .He was asked to leave our house because he kept smoking in his bedroom. YET, why was he told to leave his latest living situation? Because he was smoking in the area where he slept? There was a small pile of cigarette butts in that area after he left. I saw a photo. IT IS UNBELIEVABLE TO ME HOW THIS DOES NOT REGISTER IN HIS BRAIN! Why does he get defensive when we suggest he wash his freakin' feet... .they're disgusting! Why does he throw away actual silverware, not plastic spoons or forks, but silverware!

I think we all know the answer to this. He does not use a 'wisemind'. He has been able to do what he wants and when he upsets the applecarts of others, the effect upon him hasn't been enough to get him to change his behaviour. Someone will save him and solve his problems. He is oblivious to the effect his behaviour has upon others. He hasn't had to be. He can always 'blame others' for his situation.

You may think this is simplistic too, but I am inclined to think of that frog that gets put into a cold pot of water and the water slowly heats up and before you know it the frog is cooking. So I see it with someone who continually pushes the boundaries and 'gets away with it'. Little by little the boundary means less and less as the person pushing the boundary continues to be saved from the effects of breaking the boundary. It's learned behaviour. Yes this is probably simplistic, but it's illustrative isn't it? I know my language can be clumsy, but I am trying to find the words to help us see more clearly.

Your comment is right on the money with this one and you are absolutely correct. After he was asked to leave his latest living situation, we stepped up and saved him again!

... .I know that buying a condo would be grade A enabling, but at this point as he muddles through his day to day routine, it's sad to watch him.

We do what we feel we must. And perhaps that is what is at the core of this concern. When we do things for our children w BPD I think we need to consider the hard question: am I doing this for him/her or is it to help me feel better? If we feel guilty, or if we feel responsible, or if we feel the need to protect or rescue, then these are our needs. It is not helpful to us or to others to meet our needs 'at the expense' of others. This I think is the terrible dilemma at the core of being a parent of an adult child w BPD. We worry so for the future of our children, what will they do when we are gone etc.

When our dd was 18 and insisted on living 'independently' we bought her a 'condo'. She stayed there one night. We were lucky to be able to rent it and then sell it 5 years later. She had been with us when we chose it and said she wanted it. I am glad we did that then, and we didn't lose financially. If it had been now, I am sure it would be a different situation. When she had her last big 'meltdown' 2 years or so ago, we were very worried for her situation. She was in debt and we feared she would go under and be on the streets. Initially we put our hand in our pockets whenever we were asked. The situation was becoming unmanageable and we could see a future with her dependent on us supporting her to no good avail. We put boundaries in place. Basically, we would only pay for therapy. We were prepared for the worst. We thought she could return to drug dealing, go on the streets and goodness knows what. It didn't happen... .she got into the system in some way or another. She is still in debt, but she is doing well enough.

I think that for men it is more challenging because they see themselves as providers and problem solvers (women do too, but differently) so for my dh it was especially hard to put firm boundaries in place. But we did it and the result was better for everyone. We didn't 'rescue' her, our decision wasn't about us, but it was based upon our value of 'respect'. She was very angry when this happened and she did an excellent job of 'triangulating' dh and I but we more or less, stuck to our decision. We were always open to negotiation, but she needed to initiate that and take responsibility for her situation.

I would like to see you similarly at ease with the decisions you make with your ds. It is heartbreaking enough to be in our position, we owe it to ourselves to make decisions that are in our children's best interests and our own too.

sending you love RGG,

Vivek    

[radioguitarguy]

RGG it seems to me you feel stuck between a rock and a hard place ... .and definitely you are in a no win situation ... .

I would like to discuss this through with you. It is an important issue for all of us who worry about what will happen to our adult children in the future.

... .We knew our 29ds was "different" when he was 7 or 8. His symptoms really didn't jump out until he was around 16 or 17. At that time my wife and I had no idea what we were up against until we began some heavy research. The BPD criteria then hit us right between the eyes. Basically, using the same parenting skills that we used with his older brother and younger sister didn't really take hold with our ds.

You were ahead of me. I didn't even know BPD existed until about 2 years ago. When I discovered it, and joined this place here, I soon began to change my approach. My parenting skills were useless with my dd (now 32). So I have changed myself using as vehicles for that change, validation and boundary setting. Can I ask how far you have gone it that direction? I know my learning hasn't stopped. Basically I have been working on 'rewiring' how I think so as to make things like validation and boundary setting an automatic way of life, something I do without even thinking. My learning therefore hasn't finished and never will. Are you also immersed in your own learning, to make yourself a different type of parent? a more supportive and effective one? (No I am not saying you are not supportive or effective, I am acknowledging that we can all do better and we owe it to our children w BPD to do so)

... .He was asked to leave our house because he kept smoking in his bedroom. YET, why was he told to leave his latest living situation? Because he was smoking in the area where he slept? There was a small pile of cigarette butts in that area after he left. I saw a photo. IT IS UNBELIEVABLE TO ME HOW THIS DOES NOT REGISTER IN HIS BRAIN! Why does he get defensive when we suggest he wash his freakin' feet... .they're disgusting! Why does he throw away actual silverware, not plastic spoons or forks, but silverware!

I think we all know the answer to this. He does not use a 'wisemind'. He has been able to do what he wants and when he upsets the applecarts of others, the effect upon him hasn't been enough to get him to change his behaviour. Someone will save him and solve his problems. He is oblivious to the effect his behaviour has upon others. He hasn't had to be. He can always 'blame others' for his situation.

You may think this is simplistic too, but I am inclined to think of that frog that gets put into a cold pot of water and the water slowly heats up and before you know it the frog is cooking. So I see it with someone who continually pushes the boundaries and 'gets away with it'. Little by little the boundary means less and less as the person pushing the boundary continues to be saved from the effects of breaking the boundary. It's learned behaviour. Yes this is probably simplistic, but it's illustrative isn't it? I know my language can be clumsy, but I am trying to find the words to help us see more clearly.

Your comment is right on the money with this one and you are absolutely correct. After he was asked to leave his latest living situation, we stepped up and saved him again!

... .I know that buying a condo would be grade A enabling, but at this point as he muddles through his day to day routine, it's sad to watch him.

We do what we feel we must. And perhaps that is what is at the core of this concern. When we do things for our children w BPD I think we need to consider the hard question: am I doing this for him/her or is it to help me feel better? If we feel guilty, or if we feel responsible, or if we feel the need to protect or rescue, then these are our needs. It is not helpful to us or to others to meet our needs 'at the expense' of others. This I think is the terrible dilemma at the core of being a parent of an adult child w BPD. We worry so for the future of our children, what will they do when we are gone etc.

Vivek ... .Again you've made this crystal clear and you're right, it's an incredibly tough question because we've been there a couple of times already. We are definitely doing this to make us feel better to avoid having to relive the phone calls when he would sob on the phone or the week he spent in jail because he didn't follow through on a judge's court order. Yes, we are enabling him so we don't experience the heartache.

When our dd was 18 and insisted on living 'independently' we bought her a 'condo'. She stayed there one night. We were lucky to be able to rent it and then sell it 5 years later. She had been with us when we chose it and said she wanted it. I am glad we did that then, and we didn't lose financially. If it had been now, I am sure it would be a different situation. When she had her last big 'meltdown' 2 years or so ago, we were very worried for her situation. She was in debt and we feared she would go under and be on the streets. Initially we put our hand in our pockets whenever we were asked. The situation was becoming unmanageable and we could see a future with her dependent on us supporting her to no good avail. We put boundaries in place. Basically, we would only pay for therapy. We were prepared for the worst. We thought she could return to drug dealing, go on the streets and goodness knows what. It didn't happen... .she got into the system in some way or another. She is still in debt, but she is doing well enough.

I think that for men it is more challenging because they see themselves as providers and problem solvers (women do too, but differently) so for my dh it was especially hard to put firm boundaries in place. But we did it and the result was better for everyone. We didn't 'rescue' her, our decision wasn't about us, but it was based upon our value of 'respect'. She was very angry when this happened and she did an excellent job of 'triangulating' dh and I but we more or less, stuck to our decision. We were always open to negotiation, but she needed to initiate that and take responsibility for her situation.

I would like to see you similarly at ease with the decisions you make with your ds. It is heartbreaking enough to be in our position, we owe it to ourselves to make decisions that are in our children's best interests and our own too.

sending you love RGG,

Vivek    

[radioguitarguy]

RGG it seems to me you feel stuck between a rock and a hard place ... .and definitely you are in a no win situation ... .

I would like to discuss this through with you. It is an important issue for all of us who worry about what will happen to our adult children in the future.

... .We knew our 29ds was "different" when he was 7 or 8. His symptoms really didn't jump out until he was around 16 or 17. At that time my wife and I had no idea what we were up against until we began some heavy research. The BPD criteria then hit us right between the eyes. Basically, using the same parenting skills that we used with his older brother and younger sister didn't really take hold with our ds.

You were ahead of me. I didn't even know BPD existed until about 2 years ago. When I discovered it, and joined this place here, I soon began to change my approach. My parenting skills were useless with my dd (now 32). So I have changed myself using as vehicles for that change, validation and boundary setting. Can I ask how far you have gone it that direction? I know my learning hasn't stopped. Basically I have been working on 'rewiring' how I think so as to make things like validation and boundary setting an automatic way of life, something I do without even thinking. My learning therefore hasn't finished and never will. Are you also immersed in your own learning, to make yourself a different type of parent? a more supportive and effective one? (No I am not saying you are not supportive or effective, I am acknowledging that we can all do better and we owe it to our children w BPD to do so)

... .He was asked to leave our house because he kept smoking in his bedroom. YET, why was he told to leave his latest living situation? Because he was smoking in the area where he slept? There was a small pile of cigarette butts in that area after he left. I saw a photo. IT IS UNBELIEVABLE TO ME HOW THIS DOES NOT REGISTER IN HIS BRAIN! Why does he get defensive when we suggest he wash his freakin' feet... .they're disgusting! Why does he throw away actual silverware, not plastic spoons or forks, but silverware!

I think we all know the answer to this. He does not use a 'wisemind'. He has been able to do what he wants and when he upsets the applecarts of others, the effect upon him hasn't been enough to get him to change his behaviour. Someone will save him and solve his problems. He is oblivious to the effect his behaviour has upon others. He hasn't had to be. He can always 'blame others' for his situation.

You may think this is simplistic too, but I am inclined to think of that frog that gets put into a cold pot of water and the water slowly heats up and before you know it the frog is cooking. So I see it with someone who continually pushes the boundaries and 'gets away with it'. Little by little the boundary means less and less as the person pushing the boundary continues to be saved from the effects of breaking the boundary. It's learned behaviour. Yes this is probably simplistic, but it's illustrative isn't it? I know my language can be clumsy, but I am trying to find the words to help us see more clearly.

Your comment is right on the money with this one and you are absolutely correct. After he was asked to leave his latest living situation, we stepped up and saved him again!

... .I know that buying a condo would be grade A enabling, but at this point as he muddles through his day to day routine, it's sad to watch him.

We do what we feel we must. And perhaps that is what is at the core of this concern. When we do things for our children w BPD I think we need to consider the hard question: am I doing this for him/her or is it to help me feel better? If we feel guilty, or if we feel responsible, or if we feel the need to protect or rescue, then these are our needs. It is not helpful to us or to others to meet our needs 'at the expense' of others. This I think is the terrible dilemma at the core of being a parent of an adult child w BPD. We worry so for the future of our children, what will they do when we are gone etc.

Vivek ... .Again you've made this crystal clear and you're right, it's an incredibly tough question because we've been there a couple of times already. We are definitely doing this to make us feel better to avoid having to relive the phone calls when he would sob on the phone or the week he spent in jail because he didn't follow through on a judge's court order. Yes, we are enabling him so we don't experience the heartache.

When our dd was 18 and insisted on living 'independently' we bought her a 'condo'. She stayed there one night. We were lucky to be able to rent it and then sell it 5 years later. She had been with us when we chose it and said she wanted it. I am glad we did that then, and we didn't lose financially. If it had been now, I am sure it would be a different situation. When she had her last big 'meltdown' 2 years or so ago, we were very worried for her situation. She was in debt and we feared she would go under and be on the streets. Initially we put our hand in our pockets whenever we were asked. The situation was becoming unmanageable and we could see a future with her dependent on us supporting her to no good avail. We put boundaries in place. Basically, we would only pay for therapy. We were prepared for the worst. We thought she could return to drug dealing, go on the streets and goodness knows what. It didn't happen... .she got into the system in some way or another. She is still in debt, but she is doing well enough.

I think that for men it is more challenging because they see themselves as providers and problem solvers (women do too, but differently) so for my dh it was especially hard to put firm boundaries in place. But we did it and the result was better for everyone. We didn't 'rescue' her, our decision wasn't about us, but it was based upon our value of 'respect'. She was very angry when this happened and she did an excellent job of 'triangulating' dh and I but we more or less, stuck to our decision. We were always open to negotiation, but she needed to initiate that and take responsibility for her situation.

I would like to see you similarly at ease with the decisions you make with your ds. It is heartbreaking enough to be in our position, we owe it to ourselves to make decisions that are in our children's best interests and our own too.

Vivek ... .Seeing my therapist this afternoon to get some feedback on this situation. Please keep me updated on your dd's progress and I'll do the same. I gotta tell ya... .I'm so glad you're here!

sending you love RGG,

Vivek    

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[ilusa26]

I am reluctant get my daughter on disability or medicaid.  I feel then she may not get motivated to look for job and support herself.  Not that she is motivated right now but still there is hope.

[radioguitarguy]

I am reluctant get my daughter on disability or medicaid.  I feel then she may not get motivated to look for job and support herself.  Not that she is motivated right now but still there is hope.

ilusa26... .

After years of having dozens of jobs full and part time, I'm thinking that only part of not being able to find a full time job and keeping it is partly... .lack of motivation but mostly, in our ds's case is that he doesn't "know how." I'm not trying to give him reasons to ignore trying, but I've seen him fail with each job he's had. He either doesn't work hard enough to complete the days' work as instructed or eventually he has verbal confrontations with his boss when they call him on it. It's happened about 90% of the time and it happens about 4 weeks into the job.

RGG

[radioguitarguy]

RGG it seems to me you feel stuck between a rock and a hard place ... .and definitely you are in a no win situation ... .

I would like to discuss this through with you. It is an important issue for all of us who worry about what will happen to our adult children in the future.

... .We knew our 29ds was "different" when he was 7 or 8. His symptoms really didn't jump out until he was around 16 or 17. At that time my wife and I had no idea what we were up against until we began some heavy research. The BPD criteria then hit us right between the eyes. Basically, using the same parenting skills that we used with his older brother and younger sister didn't really take hold with our ds.

You were ahead of me. I didn't even know BPD existed until about 2 years ago. When I discovered it, and joined this place here, I soon began to change my approach. My parenting skills were useless with my dd (now 32). So I have changed myself using as vehicles for that change, validation and boundary setting. Can I ask how far you have gone it that direction? I know my learning hasn't stopped. Basically I have been working on 'rewiring' how I think so as to make things like validation and boundary setting an automatic way of life, something I do without even thinking. My learning therefore hasn't finished and never will. Are you also immersed in your own learning, to make yourself a different type of parent? a more supportive and effective one? (No I am not saying you are not supportive or effective, I am acknowledging that we can all do better and we owe it to our children w BPD to do so)

... .He was asked to leave our house because he kept smoking in his bedroom. YET, why was he told to leave his latest living situation? Because he was smoking in the area where he slept? There was a small pile of cigarette butts in that area after he left. I saw a photo. IT IS UNBELIEVABLE TO ME HOW THIS DOES NOT REGISTER IN HIS BRAIN! Why does he get defensive when we suggest he wash his freakin' feet... .they're disgusting! Why does he throw away actual silverware, not plastic spoons or forks, but silverware!

I think we all know the answer to this. He does not use a 'wisemind'. He has been able to do what he wants and when he upsets the applecarts of others, the effect upon him hasn't been enough to get him to change his behaviour. Someone will save him and solve his problems. He is oblivious to the effect his behaviour has upon others. He hasn't had to be. He can always 'blame others' for his situation.

You may think this is simplistic too, but I am inclined to think of that frog that gets put into a cold pot of water and the water slowly heats up and before you know it the frog is cooking. So I see it with someone who continually pushes the boundaries and 'gets away with it'. Little by little the boundary means less and less as the person pushing the boundary continues to be saved from the effects of breaking the boundary. It's learned behaviour. Yes this is probably simplistic, but it's illustrative isn't it? I know my language can be clumsy, but I am trying to find the words to help us see more clearly.

... .I know that buying a condo would be grade A enabling, but at this point as he muddles through his day to day routine, it's sad to watch him.

We do what we feel we must. And perhaps that is what is at the core of this concern. When we do things for our children w BPD I think we need to consider the hard question: am I doing this for him/her or is it to help me feel better? If we feel guilty, or if we feel responsible, or if we feel the need to protect or rescue, then these are our needs. It is not helpful to us or to others to meet our needs 'at the expense' of others. This I think is the terrible dilemma at the core of being a parent of an adult child w BPD. We worry so for the future of our children, what will they do when we are gone etc.

When our dd was 18 and insisted on living 'independently' we bought her a 'condo'. She stayed there one night. We were lucky to be able to rent it and then sell it 5 years later. She had been with us when we chose it and said she wanted it. I am glad we did that then, and we didn't lose financially. If it had been now, I am sure it would be a different situation. When she had her last big 'meltdown' 2 years or so ago, we were very worried for her situation. She was in debt and we feared she would go under and be on the streets. Initially we put our hand in our pockets whenever we were asked. The situation was becoming unmanageable and we could see a future with her dependent on us supporting her to no good avail. We put boundaries in place. Basically, we would only pay for therapy. We were prepared for the worst. We thought she could return to drug dealing, go on the streets and goodness knows what. It didn't happen... .she got into the system in some way or another. She is still in debt, but she is doing well enough.

I think that for men it is more challenging because they see themselves as providers and problem solvers (women do too, but differently) so for my dh it was especially hard to put firm boundaries in place. But we did it and the result was better for everyone. We didn't 'rescue' her, our decision wasn't about us, but it was based upon our value of 'respect'. She was very angry when this happened and she did an excellent job of 'triangulating' dh and I but we more or less, stuck to our decision. We were always open to negotiation, but she needed to initiate that and take responsibility for her situation.

I would like to see you similarly at ease with the decisions you make with your ds. It is heartbreaking enough to be in our position, we owe it to ourselves to make decisions that are in our children's best interests and our own too.

sending you love RGG,

Vivek    

Thanks V... .I just returned from my therapy session. I explained the situation, told him at the age of 62, we were getting tired of the same ole... same ole and that we were entering a difficult financial situation. He told me that having a plan was key and that applying for SS Disabilty was a good start. He told me how he used to work with families in crisis in the Bronx and that some BPD grown children who lived with the parents and who were in their 40's and 50's and had never learned to do anything for themselves were in big trouble when their parents just got too old or passed away.

He recommended we have a talk with our ds and make the conversation about us. That we were stressed out because of his situation and financially just walkin' the line. Telling him it's "not his fault". We were not doing him any favors by "saving him" all the time. It was time for him to begin making a life for himself and that we would help him fill out all the forms and secure a SS disabilty attorney.  The conversation will be tough and I know he's going to listen for maybe 5 minutes, raise his voice and then walk away but this HAS to be done. I just hope that my wife and I have the incredible strength this is going to take and that we can persevere.

[qcarolr]

I am reluctant get my daughter on disability or medicaid.  I feel then she may not get motivated to look for job and support herself.  Not that she is motivated right now but still there is hope.

ilusa26... .

After years of having dozens of jobs full and part time, I'm thinking that only part of not being able to find a full time job and keeping it is partly... .lack of motivation but mostly, in our ds's case is that he doesn't "know how." I'm not trying to give him reasons to ignore trying, but I've seen him fail with each job he's had. He either doesn't work hard enough to complete the days' work as instructed or eventually he has verbal confrontations with his boss when they call him on it. It's happened about 90% of the time and it happens about 4 weeks into the job.

RGG

IMHO, disability benefits can become a beginning, not an end. Espcially when we as parents need to step aside. This can help provide some sense of security in the transistion. A good lawyer and access to a benefits counselor or coordinator after approved can really be a big help. It can be a long process as most are initially denied, and it is about a year wait for the administrative appeal hearing.

Does you county social services offer an adult care program? Are there other non-profit organzations in your area that can provide a benefti coordinator for your DS? I think other countries have more in place for this need than the US... .I have tried to get my DD connected with several different organizations to take my place as 'benefits coordinator'. With public or subsidized housing, food stamps, adult medicaid, adult needy cash benefits... .I have helped her get some of these, and keep helping her keep them and recertifiy every year. She refuses to accept help from anyone else. It is so hard for our grown kids to reach out for what they need.

If you had the resource contacts when you bring this up with your DS, would he be willing to at least do an initial intake meeting?

qcr  

[lbjnltx]

For some, disability benefits will be a spring board to growth and security... .for others... .that spring board will be a place to lie down and do even less for themselves... .it depends on the individual.