What should we do if she finds out...

[pessim-optimist]

Hi everyone,

We have been pondering this possibility for a while, but now it is becoming very likely... .And we wonder how to deal with it if/when that happens. The situation is complicated, but I'll try to make a loong story shorter:

Parents divorced, two grown daughters, I am married to their father. Mother - some serious issues, 20+years later still on a mission to destroy the girls r/s with father.

The older daughter - BPD - always very sensitive, never got along with mom, stayed with dad. Off and on with mom.

Younger daughter - grew up with mom; serious PAS (parental alienation syndrome), we didn't know what we were dealing with until about two years ago. For years, every time she decided to get in touch with dad, her mom doubled down on her alienating efforts and got her daughter all stirred up and to attack dad, there would be a disagreement, followed by her NC until next time.

This last cycle was different - younger daughter got married and slowly started calling her dad. Fast forward two years - she told him she wanted to go deeper in her r/s with him. Then she got pregnant, and out of the blue (no disagreement or anything) cut off all communication and a few months later she is posting garbage about her dad on the internet. By now the baby was born, and she is on a mission against her dad, more than we've seen in the past.

Here's where the older daughter (BPD) comes into play: a year and a half ago, she started getting closer to her mom, and for the second time in her life mom was successful in her alienating efforts. D split dad into all bad. Eventually she went NC. At that time, we thought that the younger d was finally opening up to dad, and was maturing. She was in touch with her sister, and so we thought it would help, if she knew what her sister's behaviors were about, and that if she researched BPD, she would be more able to help her. She never did research it and brushed it off as (my older sister is just immature and a brat).

Now though, a year and a half later, with her new baby and back to hating dad, she is fighting with her sister, telling her she is mentally unstable and as a condition of having an r/s with her (the younger), she (the older one w/BPD) must go NC with dad... .

Of course my dear step-daughter's heart is broken, her dad and I spent hours on the phone with her. She doesn't understand why her sister would be so cruel, and doesn't understand why her mother is 'taking her sister's side'. We know, but we cannot tell her... .

So, now we are hoping that her younger sister doesn't remember the term BPD and doesn't tell her older sister that her dad thinks she has it in order to turn her against him. (It would be so malicious, but I have seen enough in this family to know it is likely. It would devastate the older one, but it just might help turn her against dad, which is always the goal... . :'()

SO, WHAT DO WE DO WHEN/IF OUR D COMES BACK TO DAD TELLING HIM HER SISTER TOLD HER DAD THINKS SHE IS MENTALLY ILL AND/OR HAS BPD?

Sorry for such a long post, but all the details are important to understand the dynamic.

Please let me know if anyone has had a similar situation and navigated those waters successfully.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[lbjnltx]

Hi Pessio-O,

I think I understand the dynamic after reading your post.  If this does come to fruition, I would be prepared with the compassionate truth.

We have and continue to be concerned about your well being and happiness.

We have and continue to make efforts to understand how you feel and what your needs are in order to be supportive and have a good relationship with you.

Through our quest to understand we became aware that there are conditions that people suffer from and those conditions have clinical names.  We aren't doctors who can diagnose people, our focus is to understand what you need from us and how we can better ourselves and our relationship with you.


lbjnltx

[vivekananda]

lbj has the right idea. No need for explanations, no need to try to 'hide' breathe deeply and focus on 'we want to work on our relationship with you, that has always been our guiding light.' 'we are not doctors, we look for help to understand how we can improve our relationship with you.'

and of course validate, validate till the cows come home.

Vivek    

nb beware of the FOG   you have nothing to fear - you have done no wrong.

[pessim-optimist]

Thank you for your encouragement.   

I have the same gut feeling that if it does come up (hoping that it won't), we need to tell her the truth.

We did consider just brushing it off with: 'well, when you were not talking to us last year, it did seem crazy to us' but there are too many 'buts' to it: It is a wasted opportunity, it would only work if the term BPD was not mentioned (if her sister only said that we think she is mentally ill), and it would mislead her into thinking that she is ok, and she is still likely to say: 'so, you don't think that I am crazy?' (and then we would either have to back-peddal, or flat out lie, which is morally something we don't want to do... .)

What concerns me the most is that if that conversation does happen, it will be under highly dysregulated circumstances and during such time it is really hard to get through. What is she going to hear through the cognitive distortions?

Would it be better to say something mild and then say that this is not a good time to talk about such important and painful issues and that we could talk about it at some other time if she wants to?

If so, what could that 'mild' thing to say be?

[Rapt Reader]

We did consider just brushing it off with: 'well, when you were not talking to us last year, it did seem crazy to us' but there are too many 'buts' to it: It is a wasted opportunity, it would only work if the term BPD was not mentioned (if her sister only said that we think she is mentally ill), and it would mislead her into thinking that she is ok, and she is still likely to say: 'so, you don't think that I am crazy?' (and then we would either have to back-peddal, or flat out lie, which is morally something we don't want to do... .)

What concerns me the most is that if that conversation does happen, it will be under highly dysregulated circumstances and during such time it is really hard to get through. What is she going to hear through the cognitive distortions?

Hi, pessim-optimist   

I so hope that the sisters do not have that conversation! That's the best you can hope for... .But if that does happen, and you have to face your daughter's wrath, I would try not to use the word "crazy." Unless this is something that your family has used in the past and it isn't as incendiary as it would be in my family? I've had touchy conversations in the past with my uBPDM-I-L and uBPDD-I-L, and they sure are tricky mine-fields to navigate! Some have gone well, some not so well. What I've learned through them all, if they are about something I've said to someone that has gotten back to them, I've always owned up to the conversation as matter-of-factly as possible, and then apologized for hurting their feelings.

Yeah, these have been very difficult conversations (and I didn't know about validation or S.E.T. at the time, or I would've tried to use those techniques for sure!), but somehow I got through them and at this time we are all on speaking terms. No easy feat    My latest dust-up with my D-I-L happened just this past Spring, and I needed to navigate it very well, in order to be on good terms with her and my other son (the one who is not BPD; not the one I talk about all the time here) because they were having their first child--my first grandchild!--in June (he's 3.5 months old now and adorable! by the way). For that conversation I did have the tools in my head, so I used them in an email to my D-I-L and son. And, it worked! And we are all on good terms, and I've seen my GS and am in their lives.

I used the information on that Acceptance-Acknowledgement Declaration in Valerie Porr's book, combining it with S.E.T. But, my situation involved having to account for past "sins" as well as current "sins" that had caused them both angst (but mostly D-I-L who whipped up distress in my son so they were co-sufferers due to me), so that is why I had to use Porr's guidance in this. I know you know all about S.E.T. and should be able to apply that technique. Here's the info for the Declaration Porr gives:

I never knew how much pain you were in. I never knew how much you suffered. I must have said and done so many things to hurt you because I did not understand or acknowledge your pain. I am sorry. It was never my intention to cause you pain. What can we do now to improve the relationship?

--page 331, "Overcoming Borderline Personality Disorder" by Valerie Porr.

I'm not sure if you can apply any of that to your situation... .I used examples, in the S.E.T. form where I had to in order to answer the questions they demanded answers for, and the quote above as my guidance for attitude and tone. And then ended the email with those exact words besides. Maybe you can think about what you want to say, post it here, and we can all brainstorm how you can communicate that with S.E.T., using the Declaration format? How does that sound to you? Because, I did have "a similar situation and navigated those waters successfully."

   Rapt Reader

[pessim-optimist]

Thank you for your advice Rapt Reader,

there's a lot in your post that would come in handy.  

I so hope that the sisters do not have that conversation!

Me too! Right now, it's a 'mexican stand-off'. There were other 'conditions' coming from the younger sister, and the older one and her husband did not like any of them (rightfully so, in my opinion, but we are staying out of it). For now, sd texted her younger sister 'your conditions are unacceptable' and hasn't heard from her. Her mother called up and they had a fight about it... .So it depends on everyone's next move or two.

But if that does happen, and you have to face your daughter's wrath, I would try not to use the word "crazy." Unless this is something that your family has used in the past... .

It's an ok word in our family (but we may not use it after all), she's been using it as a synonym for 'a bit over the top', 'out of hand' etc., and she would be likely to use it herself INSTEAD of 'mentally unstable' or 'mentally ill' because that would be more serious and painful of a word for her.

I thought about it some more - I'm really concerned she would feel betrayed and rejected by her whole FOO. I just hope we can keep that connection... .

Here's the info for the Declaration Porr gives:

I never knew how much pain you were in. I never knew how much you suffered. I must have said and done so many things to hurt you because I did not understand or acknowledge your pain. I am sorry. It was never my intention to cause you pain. What can we do now to improve the relationship?

--page 331, "Overcoming Borderline Personality Disorder" by Valerie Porr.

I'm not sure if you can apply any of that to your situation... .I used examples, in the S.E.T. form where I had to in order to answer the questions they demanded answers for, and the quote above as my guidance for attitude and tone. And then ended the email with those exact words besides.

Thank you! I think we could incorporate it into the part that lbj suggested, that we realized the above after our research and discovery. Of course, I would love it, if we could e-mail her, but her style is to call up and pop the surprise on you, so I figure - we better be ready, just in case.

Maybe you can think about what you want to say, post it here, and we can all brainstorm how you can communicate that with S.E.T., using the Declaration format? How does that sound to you? Because, I did have "a similar situation and navigated those waters successfully."

That sounds wonderful. I will have to think about it a bit. What lbj suggested is pretty good in itself. I was also thinking about that delay tactic of saying something 'mild' and offering to talk about it later, when she felt calmer. Another angle I thought about was explaining that some conditions have names, but that does not mean one is 'insane' (she might be able to relate to it, as she claims her husband is PTSD from being in the military - he might be, we think more from his childhood and from living with her than anything else, he did not experience anything really traumatic while deployed, that we know of... .)

[qcarolr]

Pessio -   

There is such great ideas and support here. So good to have a plan before this potential call comes.

qcr  

[vivekananda]

just a quick note... .PTD doesn't have to be as a result of a traumatic incident. It can also be a result of long term fear or threat. That's why a pw a history of a lack of a validating environment at home can be assessed as PTSD (that 'lifetime of abuse'. So a clerk in the army, serving a term in a war zone, can be enough to bring on PTSD. That's how I understand it.

cheers,

Vivek    

[six]

not sure if this is helpful, but I would try to build up the relationship to the extent possible before the **it hits the fan. 

Meaning, find ways to validate her and build her up so that she knows how much you care.  That way, when you are having that difficult emotionally disregulated conversation with her, you can refer her back to all the loving caring parts of your relationship that she has recently experienced.

and don't forget to pray for a miracle.  sometimes they happen

[pessim-optimist]

Thank you all for your support and ideas!

Vivek  - you are right, it is a possibility. If that's the case, I suspect he has multiple sources of PTSD in his life... .

not sure if this is helpful, but I would try to build up the relationship to the extent possible before the **it hits the fan.  

Meaning, find ways to validate her and build her up so that she knows how much you care.  That way, when you are having that difficult emotionally disregulated conversation with her, you can refer her back to all the loving caring parts of your relationship that she has recently experienced.

and don't forget to pray for a miracle.  sometimes they happen

Yes ma'am! That's the plan (on both accounts - the r/s & the miracle). She was always emotionally very dependent on her father, and always very close to him, with the exception of one 1.5 year 'devaluing' episode more than a decade ago and another 1.5 year one in the last 2 years.

We are now trying to build a more healthy r/s with her, using our new skills. Mainly validating her experience, not solving her problems for her and encouraging her to solve her own problems validating and encouraging her through it; and having more appropriate boundaries (that one is easier since she lives in another state). We have experienced some progress with these (I will post in another thread), and we are hoping that it will not be sabotaged by the outside forces. If so, we will have to accept it, be our best selves, and move forward.