Do BPDs Feel Remorse?

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

My partner (unmarried, young children) has thus far mostly severed ties with the "boy" she had an affair with... .mostly emotional with some physical contact, but an affair all the same. She re-integrated her personality just in the past week; whereas, for the past month, she was "there" but not "there" if you know what I mean. We spent hours the other day talking and talking about everything. Last night, however, I asked her if she really felt sorry for what she did? She said she was at the point of feeling intense guilt about what she had done (leaving out the "to me" part) right now. In the typical BPD cycle, this probably means that despair, self-hatred and depression are the next stage, and I am preparing myself for it. My question, however, relates to how they feel real remorse, if any? I don't feel it from her. I told her I can forgive her, but last night I said that I asked her why she hasn't asked me for forgiveness, whereafter she started talking about feeling guilt at the moment and she was still trying to process everything. She also only started severing from the other guy when she found out he had a woman on the back burner, and then realized, she said, how I may have felt because she was cheating, but being cheated on! As if she could not before comprehend or care how I felt.

All in all, I cannot forgive an unrepentant person (that doesn't even make sense), nor can I live with one, as if it was still my fault, even though the previous day she had acknowledged that it was indeed her acting out of her fears. This seems typical, and so does her cycle of emotions, but do they ever come around? I am not talking about her groveling, begging, or doing things to demonstrate it, just a simple statement, which knowing her well, I would know if she were sincere or not. Thanks... .- Turkish

[Turkish]

My partner (unmarried, young children) has thus far mostly severed ties with the "boy" she had an affair with... .mostly emotional with some physical contact, but an affair all the same. She re-integrated her personality just in the past week; whereas, for the past month, she was "there" but not "there" if you know what I mean. We spent hours the other day talking and talking about everything. Last night, however, I asked her if she really felt sorry for what she did? She said she was at the point of feeling intense guilt about what she had done (leaving out the "to me" part) right now. In the typical BPD cycle, this probably means that despair, self-hatred and depression are the next stage, and I am preparing myself for it. My question, however, relates to how they feel real remorse, if any? I don't feel it from her. I told her I can forgive her, but last night I said that I asked her why she hasn't asked me for forgiveness, whereafter she started talking about feeling guilt at the moment and she was still trying to process everything. She also only started severing from the other guy when she found out he had a woman on the back burner, and then realized, she said, how I may have felt because she was cheating, but being cheated on! As if she could not before comprehend or care how I felt.

All in all, I cannot forgive an unrepentant person (that doesn't even make sense), nor can I live with one, as if it was still my fault, even though the previous day she had acknowledged that it was indeed her acting out of her fears. This seems typical, and so does her cycle of emotions, but do they ever come around? I am not talking about her groveling, begging, or doing things to demonstrate it, just a simple statement, which knowing her well, I would know if she were sincere or not. Thanks... .- Turkish

[Aussie0zborn]

That's a very good question and I would be interested to read a learned response from one of the Board Advisors.

My experience with my uBPD stbx wife was that she felt no remorse - ever. I would say she felt guilt and shame when I caught her out. She was never angry that I used whatever means to catch her out or that I would know about something but turn a blind eye and then confront her with it when she'd gone too far. She just felt bad but not remorseful. I never ever got a proper apology. I would think you are right in that despair, self-hatred and depression are the next stage for her now.

I don't think you will ever see the remorse you'd like to see.

[Herculite]

Hi Turkish,

I'll give my personal experience, and take it for what it's worth, because they're all different, some worse than others.

In my experience, infidelity is extremely destructive and selfish. I'm not of the cheating is totally unforgivable school, but pretty close. I thought that, a one night stand, maybe booze involved, and admission of guilt and totally remorse might be forgivable. But my experience is that I got none of that. I think very few do. Maybe none. I think to carry out an extended, long term affair, takes a very manipulitive, dishonest individual. I made the mistake, many times with my STBXW, of listening to her manipulation, blameshifting, projection etc. to doubt my self.

I'm coming out the other side now, of doubt, after leaving her. No regrets, what so ever!

Remorse has to be real. Trust your instincts. If it doesn't seem real, then it isn't. You will find a better place. Have faith in yourself.

[slimmiller]

With true remorse there has to be an expression of and a demonstration of REAL vulnerability. I have never seen my exBPD even remotely allowing herself to look vulnerable. The minute she gets close to that she gets defensive, the claws come out and the lies begin. They will do ANYTHING to avoid even appearing vulnerable. Even to the point of being the one that does the cheating while accusing you of doing it so that they are the ones not vulnerable and you are in the weaker position

Listen to your gut! I wish I did from the beginning and I think all of us looking back probably ignored our gut instinct to a point

[popeye6031]

Yea, would have to agree that they do not seem to be able to display remorse.  My fiance will do something very bad, and then when she gets around to saying sorry, just acts like nothing ever happened.  I know that if I were to do something bad, like cheating (which I have not done btw), I would feel bad and sorry about it for weeks after and tread water carefully because I know my gf or partner would be still hurting.  And I would make sure I tried to build up the trust again. 

But no such thing exists with my fiance.  No matter what she does, after she has said sorry, everything is back to normal as far as she is concerned and I shuold be exactly the same sweet person I was before.

[Turkish]

With true remorse there has to be an expression of and a demonstration of REAL vulnerability. I have never seen my exBPD even remotely allowing herself to look vulnerable. The minute she gets close to that she gets defensive, the claws come out and the lies begin. They will do ANYTHING to avoid even appearing vulnerable. Even to the point of being the one that does the cheating while accusing you of doing it so that they are the ones not vulnerable and you are in the weaker position

Listen to your gut! I wish I did from the beginning and I think all of us looking back probably ignored our gut instinct to a point

It all blew up last night after I was rubbing her back, talking to her, then she pulled away and I said that this was not only her decision, but mine. Then I offered that I still felt no sorrow or remorse from her and that I couldn't live with that. She also looked me in the eye and lied to me about still being in contact with the other man (boy), so then I knew. She actually did offer a kind of apology, "I am sorry I did it to you... ." etc... .but I didn't actually feel the apology. I know how I would do it, and I know what it feels like. So no, the words were empty.

Previously, she had put out there that she would not stay "for the kids" as her mother had done. But since she has basically become like her father (an unrepentant cheater), and she admitted it the other day, and hates herself for it (as she should, IMO). So now, in reality, it is I who am the one who is like her mother, and she is like her father. It is I who doesn't feel the need to stay "for the kids". Of course, she sees it backwards and at this point, I feel the determination in her to go now, even to the point where I will have to pay her off to leave with a few thousand dollars of seed money, though legally I don't  owe her anything. As for the cheating, she offered, "what if this happens again in a few years?" Well, in my mind, that is her setting it up so that it does happen. This is the second time, far worse than the first time, and the next time will be even worse. So no, I am done. Now it will be indeed walking on eggshells until she leaves, and hopefully she is not so mad at me now that she will quit her job and sue me for child support. She said she would not get at me financially, but I trust nothing at this point.

As a Christian (I know, I know, "living in sin" to you Christians out there), I find no basis for forgiving the unrepentant. Even when Jesus asked God to forgive his executioners, he stated that they "know not what they do."

She knows what she has done, even if heavily filtered by what I am 99% sure is a BPD. -Turkish

[artman.1]

Turkish,

First I would ask if you have studied the Lessons about the BPD behaviors on this website.  Eventually you will discover that the PWBPD cannot admit to themself that they did something to hurt someone else.  If they had to admit fault they would in their own mind be completely BLACK and unworthy to live.  Their Emotions and feelings are so intense that they cannot cope with that.  It is not their fault they cannot admit, or appologize.  If you got an appology, you received a serious message from her that she does care and does feel bad. 

     The reason for infidelity in the first place is due to the fear of abandonment.  Once they get into a close relationship, they become afraid that you have discovered how terrible they are and will leave. They are extremely needy and cannot cope without an emotional attachment that fulfills their emptyness.  Hence, an emotional affair that turns physical.  As you have stated, she picked another empty person to attach with, and that left her stuck and needing someone to help her cope with her grief and shame.  Once you can see the need, the empty shell and the proper way to communicate as directed in the Lessons, the Relationship can be strengthened and forgiveness found.  Just think about these things and study, study as much as you can so you may be able to understand how your loved one responds.

Art

[bpdspell]

Hey Turkish,

I'd like to add another viewpoint.

Does it really matter in the end if your ex "feels" remorse? If she did feel it what are you going do with it? How much power does her remorse for you really have?

In all honesty her BPD is the big fish in the frying pan and is really responsible for her repetitive behavior. It's hurtful and reprehensible on our part but her maladaptive coping mechanisms are dictated by her disorder which is truly the bigger picture because they resort to what they know when they are triggered. So the cheating really has nothing to do with us.

In spite of their guilt and shame still lives BPD. And so... .yeah... .they feel pretty damn bad.

Our BPD's live and breath in traumatized shoes. They feel bad damn near all the time. Period.

Shame, guilt, worthlessness, self-hate; it consumes them. Just existing makes them feel bad. But for them it's a toxic cycle that they are trapped in due to their disorder. And it's painful. This is why they tend to be so stuck on themselves and their own pain.

Hurting us is only a sliver of what they feel about themselves.

Remorse is an emotionally mature emotion that's predicated on our capacity to feel empathy. And empathy is what our BPD's tend to lack due to the emotionally stunted component of this severe mental illness.

Remorse is also connected to insight; again... .another emotionally mature emotion that BPD's lack (along with Non's) which is why they tend to make the same mistakes over and over and over again.

My guess is that you believe your ex's remorse will put her in a position to fix the pain she's caused you but in reality she isn't capable of making her wrongs right.  And if they could fix or modify their behavior they wouldn't be mentally ill.

So remorse. They may or may not feel it but in the end the disorder is boss.

Spell

[slimmiller]

As a Christian (I know, I know, "living in sin" to you Christians out there), I find no basis for forgiving the unrepentant. Even when Jesus asked God to forgive his executioners, he stated that they "know not what they do."

She knows what she has done, even if heavily filtered by what I am 99% sure is a BPD. -Turkish

When I went to a divorcecare class we had a Pastor come in and give us some words of encouragement and of course one of them was about forgivness from a Christain perspective. He said that regardless what may have transpired in the relationship/marriage it would be wise to maintain the idea of reconciliation even if there was infidelity. I have read the Bible through several times in my life and I call that idea BS. In a normal relationship maybe yes. As you pointed out, they KNOW what they do. If they cant help it or whatever the reason that they do what they do, they still do it. I told myself that Morally it would be wrong to forgive her and stay with her. In essence her cheating made the decision for me. And I truly think she knew that once she actually slept with another that that would make me divorce her and now she can carry on her relationships freely and unfettered.

That was the way I addressed the Christian perspective on it in my mind. Hope that makes sense

[bombdiffuser]

My dBPDw was extremely sorry that I found out about her affair with the much younger man (I refer to as "child" instead of "boy". She said she wished I had never found out because she didn't want to hurt me. Other than that she has shown no remorse for the actual act of cheating, you know because it was all my fault of course . In fact, I can only remember 2 times in 7 years that she has ever apologized for anything, whereas I must have said "sorry" 10 times a day... .

[bewildered2]

remember a couple of things about a person with BPD.

they are extremely critical of themselves.

they are chronically unhappy.

they do not take responsibility easily, if at all.

and it is all about them.

add it up and you have a person who will do anything to escape emotional pain... .including infidelity... .but they will never apologize because to do so would be an admission that they are not perfect, which would give you good reason to leave... .thus triggering their mortal fear of abandonment... .so in a quiet monet all by themselves they are extremely remorseful and ashamed... .but they will never admit it to you... .and despite that shame they will do it again... .

that is what you are up against when in a relationship with a borderline.

the highs are high, but they come at a price.

the question is, do you want to pay that price, and if so, for how long, and why?

b2

[Turkish]

My dBPDw was extremely sorry that I found out about her affair with the much younger man (I refer to as "child" instead of "boy". She said she wished I had never found out because she didn't want to hurt me. Other than that she has shown no remorse for the actual act of cheating, you know because it was all my fault of course . In fact, I can only remember 2 times in 7 years that she has ever apologized for anything, whereas I must have said "sorry" 10 times a day... .

Same here. She even said she was going to tell me later after she had left. She did disconnect from him for a while, though still texting. Last night, I found a message she had wrote, logging on to her "secret" email account again (browser history, duh) which she hadn't done in a week. The message was about the emotional maturity of a 16 year old, perhaps, which was better than the previous messages, which were at the 13 year old level, if that... .which makes sense in regards to her reconnecting with the house. Still, she lied to me the other night repeatedly. Last night, I slept in the kids' room with them. Strange, after all this time, she still insists on sleeping on the couch, not even with the kids (we have an extra mattress in there), but texting and stuff late into the night. I would think real love and connection to them would make her go to them, even if she hated me (which she doesn't). At least that's what I would do... .

Sometimes I only think she loves them because of the way they make her feel. I experienced what happened between me and my mom when I got older and started asserting my independence... .she treated me worse than ever and her depressive episodes got worse.

I saw my pwBPD even getting on a site to run a background check... .not on me, but most likely on the man-boy, because she told me that's what she did to previous boyfriends of hers (as if it made any difference). I guess that is something if he ends up in my kids' lives, notwithstanding the fact that juvie records are sealed. I told her that there were 4 red flags with this guy/kid, other than the cheating (that he was also cheating on her by having another girl on standby, and she found out!). It made her pause, but at this point she is obsessed with "love" and him.

As for everyone else's comments, thank you. And no, I cannot live with this anymore. She even admitted the other night, before our big argument in which I said that it was not just her choice to leave, but my choice to have her stay as well... .that she didn't know if she could get the love back between us (to me that means, no), and what if this happened again in three years? (to me that means, yes). So no, I am done. This is something so fundamental to her that I can no longer live with it.

She even threw out there if I left the house, uh, no, it's my home and she can't afford the mortgage payment anyway, along with various other household expenses,. She keeps saying that she was thinking over the last year if she were to stay "for the kids" like her mother did and she didn't want to be like that. Well, her father is the unrepentant, serial cheater, who refused to leave even after getting caught AGAIN this past year, so in reality I am her mother, and she is her father (which she kind of admitted the other day, and said she hated herself for it).

Peace last night... .but I am going to keep pushing to get her out, even though it will cost me money, that is life... .Thanks for all of the responses, I got a lot out of them. -Turkish

[Turkish]

I would say she felt guilt and shame when I caught her out. She was never angry that I used whatever means to catch her out or that I would know about something but turn a blind eye and then confront her with it when she'd gone too far. She just felt bad but not remorseful. I never ever got a proper apology. I would think you are right in that despair, self-hatred and depression are the next stage for her now.

I don't think you will ever see the remorse you'd like to see.

That is interesting. I would have thought she would have been angry that I checked her cell phone when I found out a over a month ago, but she was not mad, just sad. And she still has yet to put a lock on it (I did mine!). I have decided I am going to stop checking it (only once briefly the other night, to confirm that she was yet lying to me), because it is not healthy for me. I understand what is going on, need to tread carefully to make her think she is still in control, and do everything I can to ease her out, which will probably take longer than I think (maybe weeks more, or longer). -Turkish

[slimmiller]

[/quote]
Same here. She even said she was going to tell me later after she had left. She did disconnect from him for a while, though still texting. Last night, I found a message she had wrote, logging on to her "secret" email account again (browser history, duh) which she hadn't done in a week. The message was about the emotional maturity of a 16 year old, perhaps, which was better than the previous messages, which were at the 13 year old level, if that... .which makes sense in regards to her reconnecting with the house. Still, she lied to me the other night repeatedly. Last night, I slept in the kids' room with them. Strange, after all this time, she still insists on sleeping on the couch, not even with the kids (we have an extra mattress in there), but texting and stuff late into the night. I would think real love and connection to them would make her go to them, even if she hated me (which she doesn't). At least that's what I would do... [/quote]
Turkish,

Sorry to hear your story. That is EXACTLY what I would have had to write two and a half years ago. Im 41, she 33, our oldest (stepson) is 14  and the 'latest' love of her life who she is deeply in love with is 23... .   Plus she is about a year and a half away from being a licensed counselor herself. Yeah healthy NOT


About the love for her kids. Remember they love their kids but if she is like mine she does love them but more like you and I would love a pet. She will take care of them to a degree but when it comes time to go flop down somewhere with the latest soul mate, the kids are a million miles from her mind. She is in her element and then she will come back after a few days and want to start mothering again but after a while even the kids look at her like, 'who are you'. Its sad yes. Mine is in a full drawn out custody battle now with the kids dad over her incompetent parenting. It causes her a great deal of pain and headache but would it be enough for her to alter her behaviour? Absolutely not. If anything it only amplifies her bad behaviour.

Most people would be willing to adapt and modify behaviour to avoid pain in life. BPDs dont seem to be able to do that and we are just collateral damage

Hang in there. It gets better 

[charred]

About the love for her kids. Remember they love their kids but if she is like mine she does love them but more like you and I would love a pet. She will take care of them to a degree but when it comes time to go flop down somewhere with the latest soul mate, the kids are a million miles from her mind. She is in her element and then she will come back after a few days and want to start mothering again but after a while even the kids look at her like, 'who are you'.

First time I have heard it put that way, but dead on. My exBPDgf used to throw fits because she said I didn't put her first ahead of everyone else... .then she would point to her son and how she pushed him aside to cater to my needs. (She didn't cater to my needs... .but she did treat him exactly like a pet.) Further... .she insisted that I treat my daughter the same way and that I make sure both my daughter and exwife knew she was ahead of them in my decisions. I balked at it.

My medical doctor heard about her saying that she should come before my daughter ... .and said to me "Run, don't walk away from that fruit loop."

Took me a bit to act on the advice, but my doctor was right.

I never saw genuine empathy or remorse from my pwBPD... .she reminded me of a 3 yr old that did something very mean/hurtful and 5 minutes later expected you to take care of their needs and forget about whatever they had done. The difference was that my pwBPD was capable of remembering every word and action I had done and twisting anything to suit her needs... .when you combine the malice and hating with a complete lack of remorse or empathy... .you get a monster... a grown up vicious 3 yr old.

Not what I am willing to settle for.

[Aussie0zborn]

First time I have heard it put that way, but dead on. My exBPDgf used to throw fits because she said I didn't put her first ahead of everyone else... .then she would point to her son and how she pushed him aside to cater to my needs. (She didn't cater to my needs... .but she did treat him exactly like a pet.) Further... .she insisted that I treat my daughter the same way and that I make sure both my daughter and exwife knew she was ahead of them in my decisions. I balked at it.

I could have written this myself - word for word.

I never saw genuine empathy or remorse from my pwBPD... .she reminded me of a 3 yr old that did something very mean/hurtful and 5 minutes later expected you to take care of their needs and forget about whatever they had done. The difference was that my pwBPD was capable of remembering every word and action I had done and twisting anything to suit her needs... .when you combine the malice and hating with a complete lack of remorse or empathy... .you get a monster... a grown up vicious 3 yr old.

I could have written this myself - word for word.