I can love and validate gd, so why not DD?

[qcarolr]

My contacts with DD always end on conflicts about her housing issues and her feeling cutoff from gd by me. They kind of link together, since gd lives in our home, and we are saying to DD she cannot return to our home.

DD calls in evening, so gd is home. If I go out of the house to talk, gd follows me. Dh is not assertive with distracting gd so I can have a private conversation. Then my kind, loving gd turns into the hitting, kicking, defiant little girl refusing to go up to bed, with dh critcizing this behavior.

So last night I did my 3 deep 4-7-8 breathes while I held her hand firmly and walked her up to brush her teeth. Ignored the acting out behaviors - stayed out of range of her feet and the chair slaming to the floor while I got her hand. Then I said, I will sit with you here while you brush your teeth. Then I asked, Does it make you feel unhappy when I talk to you mom on the phone and we are having a disagreement?  Nod, YES.  Then we talked for a bit about how these phone calls effect gd. She calmed down, brushed her teeth, and with only a littel resistance got in bed and went to sleep while I sat on the end of the bed.

How do I use similar practices of love and validation with DD? Do my expectations of her arguing with me get in the way? Am I preconditioned to expect anger? Requests to live at our house again? Not wanting to even talk with her because it is too painful for ME?

Last night we argued first, then DD said she had called with some good news and now it was not good anymore. Then she hung up. So hope she calls again tonight, and I can reset myself to be in a more loving place to listen. She is in jail - she cannot hurt me physically. I can choose to divert the conversation if topics of housing or contact with gd come up. Those are the sensitive topics.

Hoping to better with dd.

qcr

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[eyvindr]

Hi carol --

I'm sorry to hear about your troubles. But your gd -- and your DD -- are both lucky to have someone as compassionate and willing to try in their lives. 

How do I use similar practices of love and validation with DD? Do my expectations of her arguing with me get in the way? Am I preconditioned to expect anger? Requests to live at our house again? Not wanting to even talk with her because it is too painful for ME?

You ask some great questions -- I think as you try to answer them for yourself, you will begin to make more sense of this. Not to oversimplify

anything, but it may help to remember -- it's harder to deal with DD because she, I assume, has BPD. Your gd doesn't. Your DD acts out -- much like a child would -- b/c of her illness. Your gd acts out because she is a child.

Take care.

[Thursday]

Hi Qcarolr,

I read your post a few times. Sorry things are so difficult. I'm sorry your daughter continues to be agitated and unset... .I can see why she is agitated and upset though.

You and your DD have quite a history and a pattern. She knows exactly where your buttons are and how to push them, even from jail. I wish you could RESET.

You say she cannot hurt you physically from where she is but you are upset at the way you feel after you talk to her. Do you think your DD would be willing to accept a short list of topics that need to be kept out of these phone calls? Perhaps you can agree to not discuss what her living arrangements will be after she is released.

I hope this next bit is not inappropriate.

You describe your GD following you when your DD calls and mention frustration with your DH for not intervening so that you can have a more private call with DD.

I'm wondering about the dynamic here with your GD. Is it possible to talk to GD and explain that while DD is in jail she needs to talk to you and you need to be able to talk to DD about adult things without GD listening. Can you ask GD to give you privacy and find something else to do when you talk to DD? It feels like, through your descriptions of the scene, that GD is clinging or at very least lingering (maybe to make sure you are OK?) and it is creating an unworkable dynamic. Since you don't know when DD will call you can't be proactive (getting GD involved in some activity that will distract her while you talk to DD) maybe you could talk to GD ahead of time about what she can/will do when DD calls. Maybe buy her a special coloring book that she is allowed to take out when DD calls, to work on until you get off the phone.

Good job on talking to GD afterwards about her feelings. It's clear to see from your post that you quiet yourself to find your wise mind.

If you have not already done so, I would make a "contract" with DD to stay on the phone with her so long as you can both contain your anger and frustrations. When one of you begins to go in a negative direction you can agree ahead of time that you should hang up and try again later. Set this boundary and stick to it! Remind yourself to tell DD that you love her and will talk to her next time if she dysregulates, agree to tell her that you love her and will talk to her next time if you dysregulate.

Your love for both of your girls keeps you stuck in an unhappy place. Let's change this!

It would be better for GD if you didn't speak to DD from jail (unless you can change the dynamics and I know you can) and it would be better for DD if you could stay calm when you talk to her. I know you can find a healthy way to fill everyone's needs.

And what is best for you? Don't forget qcarolr in this equation.


Over and over I see that my SD needs boundaries to keep from going too far. Case in point- we rarely see her and DH would like daily communication from her. She has been doing better lately at calling him. However, she has been chosing poor times to call him about 80% of the times she alls. Calls him at the end of his work day when he is trying to clear his desk and tidy up. Calls him too early in the morning when he is just waking up and his head isn't clear. Calls him on Saturday morning during Dh's and my regularly scheduled outings (we go out together every Saturday morning). DH was reluctant to even mention to her that she was calling at bad times, times when he couldn't talk, times when he didn't want to talk. He was reluctant because she is finally calling him on a regular basis. However, when she calls at these inopportune times he can't talk or doesn't want to talk and sometimes she gets mad. So, after we talked about it, he finally set some boundaries about when she calls. Always there for her in an emergency, still wants to talk to her daily if possible, nevertheless (we are big on this word!) there are times of the day when a phone call is less than optimum and he won't be answering her calls at those times. He asked her what would happen if she didn't comply with this boundary (he called it a request) and she replied that she supposed he would quit answering the phone. Then he asked her what if she had an emergency during one of those times when he has asked her not to call and she worked out the probable outcome for herself (with nearly audible eye rolling

I asked you, in another thread, if you can let your DH do some of the talking to DD. In the scenario above, DH was home. Could he have talked to DD instead of you? Just wondering... .

thursday

[Being Mindful]

I love that idea of dh talking to dd instead of you. It doesn't have to be every time, but perhaps a little distance will do everybody some good. Qc - you don't have to be the go to person for everyone.

[qcarolr]

Dh did answer the last time, and it did not go well. DD thinks he is 'an idiot'. He does resist new technology, and is not familiar with my phone to answer, open the dial pad, push the #5 to accept the prepaid call... .It took him three tries. I ended up coming into the room and doing it for him, then giving phone to him. So, she did NOT want to talk to him, why was he answering anyway... .He does not lie well so said it was to protect my blood pressure and I was sitting across the room. So I took the phone... .

There is a lack of respect between DD and dh. She has never been very will bonded with him - rarely called him dad even as a child. His connection to her often has been to try a 'make me happy'. Not a very healthy r/s is it?

Today I feel just pretty messed up about it all. Low self-esteem, anger at dh... . 

My need is to offer a place to DD to live, that we own and so no one else is exposed to the risks. We know to expect lace to care of the place -- we have seen the other places she has lived including her bedroom here. This is my need to figure out. If DD chooses to be homeless when there are other options for her, then I am OK with that choice. If she has no other choice than to be on the street, and there are long wait lists for most places if she even qualifies, than this is extrememely hard for me.

We cannot make this happen until she is released anyway because real estate takes time to close. So she does have option to choose transistion program. And we would build some accountability for her probation into the lease.

It feels so good for me to shift into this problem solver mode. As least until the next roadblock comes up.

And yes, I do need to put some boundaries in place with gd. DD'scomplaint is that I let her rule me too much - and she is right. THis is also a weakness I have with DD. Need support on these boudnaries and not getting so depressed while working it out.

Gotta go for now.

qcr

[MammaMia]

qrcarol

Are you and dh willing and able to take on the financial responsibility and upkeep on a home for your dBPDd?  Is she capable of taking care of herself, and how would this arrangement impact your relationship with your gd?

We all understand your need to know dd has a place to call home, and living with you is not an option. 

Lots of things to think about.  Take your time to sort through them. 

[Being Mindful]

Qcr,

Why do you feel good about shifting into the problem solver mode?

Why do you need to shift into the problem solver mode?

Can you ask yourself... .is this enabling or supporting?

If dh is shielded from taking any of dd's call, how does that help her, him or you?

With all due respect, I ask you these questions because I care and want to understand more so that we can help you better or in different ways.

Being Mindful

[Dibdob59]

Qcr

It is often a struggle to find the right balance between supporting and enabling our BPD children.

Being Mindful and Mamma Mia have both asked some difficult but important and insightful questions here.  These types of questions often make me uncomfortable when I need to answer them, usually because I am unclear of my true motives.

Is this the same for you?

Dibdob

[qcarolr]

Dibdob59  - Yes, finding balance is hard. I am a black and white thinker when under stress. Was talking with dh this morning - where is that balanced, quiet, peaceful grey?  I am very uncomfortable with all concerning DD today. More than motives, I think it is figuring what needs are and who they belong to. What does DD really need help with -- and accepting she has to ask someone else to give her this help.

Dh and I have agreed to drive her to her SSI appeal hearing on 10/28, only 4 days after her case managemnt conference hearing. It is likely she will be released to probation at that hearing 10/24. I am going to hearing just so I can know what to expect.

Very tired today. Not much sleep past two nights with persistent nosebleeds. When to ER at 2am this morning. It just would not stop. Let dh and gd sleep, drove myself. Home by 3:30 with some meds. to constrict vessels. Much better today. Need put off my work stuff and take a nap!

DD just called. She sounds so much better. Taking GED classes, and they are trying to get her a volunteer math tutor. They told her the standards are changing in Jan, so she needs to get the test done this year. I am so proud of the efforts she is putting into classes offered. They are required for everyone in this pod. Sounds like she is in a womens program to empower them to work toward independence and stay out of jail. Keeping this in my prayers often.

qcr

[lbjnltx]

Dear qcarolr,

Please do take care of yourself. 

It does appear that your d is taking some responsibility for her own needs.  Opportunities are there, it is up to her whether or not she takes them and how much she will benefit from them.  Is it your firm boundaries that have prompted her to take ownership of her future or does she believe if she shows effort you will allow her back home?  Time will tell.  Continue to be supportive of any effort she makes and that you believe she can see this through to a better and more independent life out in the world.

Remember that anything you do for her she will not have to find a way to do for herself.

When we intervene we take away the opportunity for them to learn, take responsibility, and gain self confidence from the experience. 

lbjnltx

[qcarolr]

In my confusion I have two threads going and they are all mixed up for me.

DD called this today - they have put a $750 fee for home detention on her books, so all money I put in for commissary will be diverted to this fee. Even though she is in jail and not being monitored. DD saw her lawyer today who said this was ordered by the judge and will be in limbo until her hearing. She also said the only way she can do PACE is if she has a real address - ie. at our home. This is not what PACE told me a couple weeks ago. I am done verifying. It will all be resolved in some way at the hearing. She was in her raging state, cursing me on the phone. I hung up.

I am stuggling to keep my head above water today. Everything is so confusing. Nothing makes any sense. Saw gd' T today. She is only one that has met all of us in the family. She asked me to return on Friday. I will be there on Thursday with gd.  Gd is feeling totally unprotected and alone. I have to let go of DD and be there for gd. I cannot hold both of them at the same time. This hurts so much I can barely tolerate it.

"We pray that you'll have the strength to stick it out over the long haul - not the grim strength of gritting your teeth but the glory-strength God gives. It is strength that endures the unendurable and spills over into joy; thanking the Father who makes us strong enough to take part in the everything bright and beautiful he has for us."   Collossioans 1:11-12 (MSG)

I need to trust in this Word and leave DD to her own path. It is so hard. Maybe if I quit gritting my teeth my headache will lessen too.

qcr

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[MammaMia]

qcarolr

I am sorry you are struggling.  If you take care of your gd, everything else will work out.

Remember to take care of yourself too.  I know... .easy to say but hard to do.  MAKE time.  MAKE it work.

You ARE important and deserve to feel loved and appreciated.  You cannot carry the weight of the world without getting sick.  No one can.

Even better, let someone take care of you for a change.  It's ok.

[qcarolr]

Dh actually started reading a parenting book to understand my attitudes in parenting gd. It is similar to our structure here - self care with boundaries so we can be in validating, loving place to interact with our kids. I just can't seem to get to that mindful place with DD. And this spills over with dh and gd. He is reading "Beyond Consequences, Logic and Control, vol. 2" by Heather Forbes. I have read all 4 of her books, some more than once. When things settle I really want to do a thread about this attachment, love based plan. It does work with gd.  I am often able to settle myself, then respond to her with sincere connection, touch, kindness. And dh must see this impact to be willing to read the book. It has helpd me gain tolerance and patience both with myself and gd.

Not so with DD - could be the BPD piece in too powerful. I just shift into self-defense mode - fear. Can't give love when I am in fear. Struggle to get into mindfulness when in fear. Maybe I need a refresher DBT course.

qcr

[MammaMia]

qcarolr

I believe it iis difficult for you to validate and love your dBPDd because of not only the fear and anger you have but the pain she has inflicted on your family over and over.  Your gd is open to your dialog, and attempts to comfort her. She does not recoil at your touch, like most pwBPD do, she is not verbally and physically abusive or untrustworthy. 

Frustrating?  Absolutely.  Painful... .oh yes in so many ways.  Can we ever  "fix" the coldness and distance between ourselves and our pwBPD... .probably not.  They are at war with the world.  We have not failed them.

We do the best we can, and that is all we can do.  Focus on your gd.  She is a child and her mother is mentally ill.  Thank God she has you and you have her. 

[qcarolr]

mammamia

This is very similar to what the T said to me today. She was celebrating with me that gd responds to me and the gift that this encourages me to keep doing better moment to moment. And each day there are more of these tiny loving moments are building up to a more settled place for each of us. She also suggested that DD is blocked to this process - in a circular pattern where I cannot reach her and she cannot reach me.

The T and I were talking about Dan Hughes book "Brain Based Parenting" and his attachment based parenting model PACE. She is the one that introduced me to his books. This concept of 'blocked parenting' comes from this book. Think I will find it and read some again. This book shifted so much in my parenting process with gd, and attempts to do it differently with DD. There were some good moments with DD, they just seem to get lost when I get shifted from white witch to black witch (ie. I am always somewhat to blame in her mind for who she is).

T invited me back next week. We are working on building my needs to feel safer. Then I can be there more consistently for gd.

qcr

[MammaMia]

qcqrolr

I am so happy to hear that you have someone supporting YOU. 

You are a good person.  Do not let DD or anyone else tell you you are not

because it is untrue.

[peaceplease]

qcr,

How awesome to have such positive results with your gd.  Awesome that you have the support of T!

What is blocked parenting?  I have never heard that term before. 

[qcarolr]

I will get my book out an get back to you on the concept of 'blocked parenting'.

qcqrolr

I am so happy to hear that you have someone supporting YOU. 

You are a good person.  Do not let DD or anyone else tell you you are not

because it is untrue.

I need to hear this over and over. Thanks.

qcr

[qcarolr]

Here is the reveiw of the book "Brain-Based Parenting: The Neuroscience of Caregiving for Healthy Attachment"

by Daniel A. Hughes, PhD., Jonathan Baylin PhD.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=195469.0

I read this book before my r/s with DD27 started into a nosedive  in Feb this year. I am still struggling to get past this depression. I am so experiencing 'blocked parenting'.  Ch. 3 is entirely about this topic. Here is a brief summary.

Blocked care is induced by parent-child interactions, and it effects the parts of our brains that are needed to experience nurturing feelings and caring about other people. It usually appears as depression and anxiety on the outside. This can come from different causes:

Closed head brain injuries to specific parts of frontal lobes - impact on good connections

Parents on autism spectrum including Asperger's - impact on attunement and empathy

Unmanageable stress from experiences of parenting, and often aspects of parents own attachment history

The book looks at this last cause, and this is certainly what my experience is. And how I have been even blocked from what I read in this book back in January. And I think, looking back, some of my FOG is from 'knowing' about how i 'should' be responding in my family r/s and just not being able to do it.

I feel so much gratitude that gd's T got it how life/death my experience of conflict between DD and GD had become. I am grateful that I was able to reach out to her for a session -- not a phone call, not sitting in the waiting room while gd had her play therapy session. And she dug beyond my incessant chatter from my head to pull up the emotions from my heart - literally from my heart and limbic system. It was the last 5 minutes of our session -- my safe time for this to peek out and then be put away again. She took the time to keep me open. And now she has seen me 2 times last week, and scheduled for next week. I am in awe that someone sees me - I am not invisible to her. And I feel safe. I have been coming to her office with gd since Jan 2010.

I am so grateful. I am able to engage effectively with gd - she is able to respond. I am lost still with DD. She is in her own neurologically blocked state, battering me about my parenting of gd and limiting her access to gd. The T does not want DD in our house - gd has to have a safe zone and this is it.

qcr

[lovesjazz]

Interesting you brought this up.  I have looked back at my own parenting behaviors and have wondrred if I wasnt somewhat BPD.  I have so much guilt about it. I often feel ashamed at how Ihad behaved. I am fortunate my dh put up with me. But it has affected my BPDs and have to live with that.