I don´t feel alright some days about our sex life...

[Monarch Butterfly]

I´d like to know something - and I coming from a woman´s point of view here. I was tyring to tell my uBPDh that I don´t feel alright some days about our sex life... .About why sex for me is laking an intimate factor - and he go this really wild puzzled look on his face and told me he had no clue to what i was talking about. As far as I understand a person with BPD has difficulty with interpersonal relationships. As a woman, sex is always more than just a physical act, there is an intimate factor here that makes all the difference. Now, for a man, I know it is more about visual/physical and the intimacy isn´t really that important. Now, for a male with BPD, can there be no intimacy what so ever? I know I´m being vague here, but I really just don´t know how other way to put it. Can I just expect no intimacy whatsoever and just take life for what it is? Or as a woman am I asking too much - even for a normal man? So, to all you men out there, exactly how much intimacy is involved - or is sex just no intimate non or BPD? I hope this thread doesnt´get interpreted the wrong way... .

[Justadude]

I think you have a lot of misconceptions about men in general. Men enjoy intimacy sexually through physical connection. It's still intimacy for us. Now a lack of emotional connection you may feel has more to do with the disconnection out of the bedroom.

[dotSlash]

Out of my 5 closest male friends, maybe 1 of them feels the way you described, and the other 4 and myself take intimacy to be quite important. My uBPD gf can have very impersonal sex. Sometimes I'll have been fairly vocal during it, and after she'll say "why didn't you make any noise or say anything?". I'll tell her, "I said hit and hit right in your ear!", and she'll say "I never heard/noticed that", even though I said it very loudly and clearly. If I have any complaint, it's that our sex is not intimate enough. Sometimes I will try to kiss and say romantic things during it and she'll pull back or not respond. She also calls me sometimes and says "I want your dick" or things of that nature. If there wasn't a separate intimate part of our relationship (talking, kissing, taking care of each other, back massages, etc), the sex alone would make me feel very disconnected from her and probably leave

[froggy]

My uBPDh is the same way... .been complaining and asking for more of a connection since 6 months into the marriage. .32 years later no affection what so ever. I can't get him to kiss me during sex or any other time... he refuses to hug me back when I hug him and when we do have sex it's only for himself... not sure why he even involves me as it's on average 5min tops.

If I could go back in time I'd tell my 17 year old self to run when when I had the gut feeling getting married was a mistake

[PrettyPlease]

  So, to all you men out there, exactly how much intimacy is involved - or is sex just no intimate non or BPD?

I'd agree with Justadude and dotSlash that most men like to have intimacy as part of sex. I know I do.

My guess is that this need is more or less normal and would be equal in men and women, and what you're experiencing with your BPD is not the norm. Whether it's part of the BPD or not I don't know, because other things could have caused him to avoid intimacy. But anyway, if you need it and he doesn't know what you're talking about, there's a serious problem.

Another possible aspect of the issue is whether you and he -- or any of us here -- are talking about the same thing when we talk about 'intimacy'.

For instance, when you tell him your sex "is laking an intimate factor", what do you mean? If it didn't lack this intimate factor, what would be different?

It might be that he does like intimacy, but expresses it differently than you do, and needs to be told what it is that's missing for you, which might be something that he doesn't think of as intimacy.

Of course, telling him will likely be tricky; he's likely to be super-sensitive to criticism of any kind. So you'd have to somehow get the information to him without it seeming like a criticism. It would have to be couched in a positive way. Does he ever do sort of almost intimacy (in your terms?) Even 10% of the way there? Maybe you could gradually train him with positive reinforcements. 

PP

[Aussie0zborn]

I'd agree with PrettyPlease, Justadude and dotSlash that most men like to have intimacy as part of sex. I know I do.

My stbx uBPDw would always say, "lets have sex" or "do you want to have sex". It was always about having sex, not making love.  She lacked intimacy, avoided kissing and ALWAYS had her eyes closed so I could have been anybody. Given what I was seeing and what she told me of her past (she called herself a sexual predator, always chasing sex) I often suggested she mistook sex for love, hence having made so many "mistakes" in her life when looking for love.

I think what you describe about men is the attitude we have when it's just sex and we have no intention of entering into a full relationship with the woman.  Being married or in a committed relationship though is different, and men yearn for intimacy as much as women do. 

[RedRose15]

When I read posts like this I feel confused about BPD.  My bf is full on with me, he says it's all about the intimacy.  We have been together nearly 2 years. He says he feels bad because he can't stop touching me.  I honestly do wonder if he is a sex addict as well.  He also he needs the fairy tale love story.  I just don't want to be graphic, but I've never had a man want me so much.  It seems to be all about me, is that normal with BPD?

I've got no-one to share this with, most people do not understand the extremes of the highs and lows i am going though.

I feel like I'm living the opposite to you.  My bf is full on, with love, kissing, touching, adoring words etc... .but I have to play the same game as him... .I need to be adoring him as well. Praising him all the time.

I can never, ever, not be in the mood, no excuses! He loves touching my hand, my body, my face, or kissing me.  He has said how hard it is when we go out somewhere with other people because he knows he looks odd how he can't stop touching me, but he says it's because he loves me and has never felt this way before. 

So, I guess I have the opposite problem. 

[froggy]

Redrose15

My husband was the same way before we got married.

2 months in to the marriage I asked why he hardly kissed me any more?

His reply was "it's too much like work... we're married... I don't have to do any of that any more"

I on the other hand had to keep things up on my end ... always reassuring him... complementing him. We still had sex 4 times a day or more... but it had changed. He wasn't so interested in how he could please me... just what I could do for him.

33 years later. ... the only thing close to intimacy I get is when he sometimes puts his hand on my hip when he's sleeping.

[PeppermintTea]

When I read posts like this I feel confused about BPD.  My bf is full on with me, he says it's all about the intimacy.  We have been together nearly 2 years. He says he feels bad because he can't stop touching me.  I honestly do wonder if he is a sex addict as well.  He also he needs the fairy tale love story.  I just don't want to be graphic, but I've never had a man want me so much.  It seems to be all about me, is that normal with BPD?

I've got no-one to share this with, most people do not understand the extremes of the highs and lows i am going though.

I feel like I'm living the opposite to you.  My bf is full on, with love, kissing, touching, adoring words etc... .but I have to play the same game as him... .I need to be adoring him as well. Praising him all the time.

I can never, ever, not be in the mood, no excuses! He loves touching my hand, my body, my face, or kissing me.  He has said how hard it is when we go out somewhere with other people because he knows he looks odd how he can't stop touching me, but he says it's because he loves me and has never felt this way before. 

So, I guess I have the opposite problem. 

Hi RedRose,

I also have the same problem as you. My dBPDh is incredibly tactile and constantly wants sex. At first this was exciting and flattering but 7 years in to our relationship (and 2 small children) it is actually a part of the wider BPD behaviour he has.

It's hard to explain but my BPDh uses sex and physical contact with me to soothe himself. He has described himself as a sex addict and a 'highly sexual' person. It's taken 7 years to see a patter but when he is displaying highly disregulated behaviour in other areas of our life this is a time when he wants more and more and more sex... .he is constantly touching and cuddling me not because this is a nice thing to do for me or to show his affection... .it is because it makes him feel better and confirms in his head that I still love and care about him... .that I am not abandoning him.

The problem is that all of this leaves me feeling in a way used. His constant touching and wanting sex and the constant demand that I reciprocate drains me.

If I described physically the way he behaves I'm sure many women would compliment him on his physical care and attention and tell me to appreciate what I have. However I know that all of this show of intimacy towards me is not for my benefit or to make me feel special, it is to make him feel better about himself. He can then say he is a 'great lover' ... .If it was as much about my needs and wants as it is about his then it would be ok for me to say 'I love you but I really need to sleep right now' or 'please don't touch me this way while the children are nearby' but he takes these kinds of statements as though I no longer care about him and no longer feel attracted to him.

I think it's the underlying motives behind touching, sex and the NEED for intimacy rather than the DESIRE for intimacy which make it a BPD type behaviour.

Just wanted to acknowledge that there are all kinds of intimacy / sex related issues with relationships in which BPD plays a part.

Best wishes,

PT x

[RedRose15]

froggy - that must of been really hard for you, going from being so desired before marriage, to the other end of the spectrum.  I'm not sure if mine will follow that pattern, we are still fairly new still, we're just coming up to our second year anniversary.

PeppermintTea - Wow, the similarities are amazing.  I also feel really drained at times, with all the physical touching and constant attention and mine is also much more clingy when he is feeling disregulated.

Oh yes, I know exactly what you mean when you say "If I described physically the way he behaves I'm sure many women would compliment him on his physical care and attention and tell me to appreciate what I have".  You have to be living it, to understand it. 

I love the times when my boyfriend actually acts a bit like a normal boyfriend.  I find it's better when we go out places, as he tries to act much more normal, and doesn't seem to maul me as much, but as soon as we are alone, ie: in the car, at home, anywhere, he is all over me, without any boundaries. 

If I say no to him, then he acts very rejected, no matter what my reason.  I'm not being graphic, but most even at that time of the month, he is still full-on.  I feel like my body is his possession.

[Jbt857]

I totally hear you!

My now exBPDh and I lived in different countries when we met, so before we got together, I'd noticed that intimacy was missing, but put it down to the distance and cultural differences, figuring it would happen in time.

It never did.

I have had relationships with guys who I've shared that intimacy and that connection with - it does exist!

In the last few years of my marriage, I always felt I was just a receptacle; I could have been anyone. We still cuddled a lot and I savoured that, but the emptiness of the sex was awful. Like Froggy, he just didn't see why he needed to make me feel special, desirable, attractive, anything. Just that I had to give him sex or he'd go get it elsewhere. When I talked about that intimacy and that connection - I may as well have been speaking Chinese. He just didn't get it.

[froggy]

Or they get in a huff and cut you off completely.

I find it funny that if I say not now or he even thinks I don't feel like it... .he threatens to go find someone else... .but I mention it's been 8 weeks... I'm making it up... .heaven forbid I aak him to pit the book down... I gave up asking a  few months ago... not like I feel like I'm needed in the process any ways.

Guess I'm just too "sensitive" like he's always telling everyone else in the house.

[PeppermintTea]

I feel like my body is his possession.

I hear you.

I think it is because a pwBPD has this empty hole where 'self' would normally be (because they seem to have no stable sense of self). That means that they want to try to fill this hole to stop it hurting. So he 'needs you' in his head. A non BPD person would desire you and desire to be with you intimately and this desire could be very strong... .but it isn't the raw NEED that a pwBPD feels.


Not sure I explained that very well.

I am starting to set some boundaries aound intimacy. It's a very hard area to set boundaries in though I'm finding because I don't want to come over as not desiring him anymore or that I don't want to be intimate... .it's a fine line.  My husband has accused me of becoming frigid and needing a sex counsellor. Hmmmm. However we have talked about this and also he is in therapy so together we have reached a compromise of sorts. It's a work in progress.

I feel less like a possession now and more like an equal person.

best of luck

PT

[RedRose15]

PeppermintTea - You make a lot of sense.  I smiled when you said about him calling you frigid and needing a sex counsellor because it sounded so familiar!  On a few occasions, when it's been totally inappropriate for him to be groping me, and I move his hand away, he says I'm frigid, which makes me laugh, it really does, considering the amount of sex in our relationship.  I swear I have had three lifetimes worth already and we are only in our second year together.

I'd love to hear how you are setting some boundaries.

[Dancing1]

I feel the same as you ! I can't be interested without intimacy, which has been eroding...

12 years into the marriage we have gone from kissing, hand holding to barely touching. Two yes ago he lost total interest in sex. Then I kept trying to work on that aspect in therapy , to no avail. I don't know what happened but the switch was turned off. He doesn't even seem interested. I've gone from being insulted, to hurt, angry , to total indifference. To feeling totally disconnected. It's just awful. I can't understand what happened.

Now I feel there is such a wide gap I can't imagine crossing that bridge again...

I'm relatively young , and I feel like I lost that " sexy" part of myself through this relationship...

[hergestridge]

My BPD wife complains about the lack of physical intimacy too. But when I try to touch her she's obviously annoyed. When he have sex she want me to touch her only during selected parts of the act (penetration being one, obviously). Me touching her spontaneously breaks her concentration. I think you can fígure out how this works... .

She's goot tools and stuff which is fine with me, but she's allways been a bit too self-centered, and as I've encouraged her to "let herself go" when it comes to focusing on her own satisfaction she's almost excluded me from the act altogether.

As with everything else in her life, reciprocity is a problem. If there's something she doesn't want 100% herself, she will let the world know she's not happy. Consequently, me telling what I want in bed is basically pointless because she will sigh, complain and ask me if she really will have to "put up with it". And I don't want to do stuff that hurts, I promise... .

[Kizza]

I'm having the same issue... .My wife tells me I want sex too much and that I'm too intimate. Whereas when she wants it it's ok. But she is far from intimate always says it's too much work and unnecessary... .She gets what she wants her way then rolls over n goes to sleep... .No cuddles or kisses or anything once she is done. Where I like to cuddle and feel her close to me afterwards. Some days I just feel like a sex toy the whole "get off and get off".

Do BPDs struggle with every aspect of emotion? Or is it just me thinking wrong about the issue?

[maxsterling]

I'm glad this thread popped up, as this is on my mind today.

First of all, I am a man who is not interested in sex without some kind of emotional connection.  I actually physically can't perform.  I really need that emotional closeness in order to feel aroused.  I am not sure whether that is typical for a man, but I am glad to read there are other men like me on this message board.

My previous girlfriend was probably more NPD than BPD, but she certainly meets both criteria.  And in that relationship I felt completely used sexually.  She had many demands, rarely touched me, and I think my body was basically an object or trophy to her.  I still feel weird about that relationship.  

My current girlfriend - obviously she has in her past had many, many sexual relationships without any kind of emotional intimacy.  She revealed to me this morning that she slept with or made out with almost all of her friends (male and female) in high school and college, including her own step brother.  She claims that was in her past when she was using drugs, but even in the decade she has been sober it's pretty clear that behavior has continued, up until the day she met me.  She told me this morning that she was thinking of going to a rehab camp for sex addicts in the months before she met me, and that meeting me "stopped the wheel from spinning".

this all makes me really uncomfortable, because I can't believe that one person will completely change because they meet another person.  So I am not convinced this behavior or thought process has stopped at all just because she met me.  And now when we go into the bedroom, I will wonder if she truly is dedicated to me, or if all previous exes were the same - she thought that person was the last one until she moved on to someone else.  I fear that she and I don't share the same intimacy - and even though she says she loves me deeply - does she really?

All so confusing.

[hergestridge]

Before the whole BPD thing was brought up I used to speculate that my wife had asperger's syndrome - mainly because of her apparent dislike for physical intimacy and her need for routines and procedures in inadquate situations - like sex. Sex with her is zero interplay. You have to learn her "thing" - which is quite complex.

Oh man, I feel like re-visiting the "Why do we stay"-thread... .

I'm having the same issue... .My wife tells me I want sex too much and that I'm too intimate. Whereas when she wants it it's ok. But she is far from intimate always says it's too much work and unnecessary... .She gets what she wants her way then rolls over n goes to sleep... .No cuddles or kisses or anything once she is done. Where I like to cuddle and feel her close to me afterwards. Some days I just feel like a sex toy the whole "get off and get off".

Do BPDs struggle with every aspect of emotion? Or is it just me thinking wrong about the issue?

[maxsterling]

Another issue is birth control.  She had an abortion about 8 months before we met.  She got pregnant by some guy whom she didn't even know where he lived, and then afterwards wanted to get pregnant artificially, and I think may have slept around for the intent of getting pregnant (She hasn't told me that specifically, but she implied it numerous times, and has also told me that she considered it but didn't do it because she decided it was unethical)

And after I met her, her friend jokingly referred to me as my girlfriend's "future baby daddy".  But even if that was a joke, it definitely says something.  And she still talks about babies all the time, and for 6 months fought left and right against using any kind of birth control.  She didn't want to use pills or any method on her end, and if I reached for a condom she cried, complained, complained she lost sensation, that she had allergic reactions, said that I didn't trust her, etc, etc.  basically the whole emotional manipulation routine.  And I felt used sexually in that she was only wanting to be with me sometimes in hopes of getting pregnant.  I asked her about this, and it brought on a huge rage.  

The more I think about this and her, the more I realize she has very huge issues that have to be overcome in order for me to feel comfortable moving forward

[RedRose15]

Maxsterling: It sounds like you feel she is manipulating you.  She very well might be, I hightly suspect she is, and you need to look after yourself.  Take as many precausions as you can and stick to your guns about using condoms. 

[Pearl55]

Froggy

BPD= Fear of abandonment and carve to be in a relationship but they can't handle intimacy.

Sex is never about us or making love. Is a way to CONTROL. Wether they are hyper sexual or not, everything is about them. Either they need validation from us or to give us enough so we don't leave them.

My husband was non sexual and always was my fault because I was a very cold woman! I really don't think so. After 13 years when I talked to the psychiatrist, he told me that he punished me all these years!

Hyper sexuality is a coping way to deal with their emptiness is nothing to do with their partners!

[froggy]

Pearl55

I've been in this relationship for 34 years learned about BPD about 4 years ago been reading as much as I can about it since. I've learned to detatch and not let anything bother me... I expect nothing from him... it's just easier that way. I'm working on setting boundries. Only took 6 months to get him to say please to me for anything... oi!

Fun thing is now there is a new girl at work he's fixated on and as predicted he now has some use for me


[quote author=Pearl55 link=topic=211310.msg12350648#msg12350648

Sex is never about us or making love. Is a way to CONTROL. Wether they are hyper sexual or not, everything is about them. Either they need validation from us or to give us enough so we don't leave them. [/quote]
I wish I got some validation! He doesn't feel the need to validate. ... no one else would want me... .why would I leave?

[starkwell]

My wife has gone completely frigid.

It's affecting my on every level - emotional, mental, physical and even chemical.

On the positive side, when we were having sex I caught her sabotaging my birth control. Yep... .poked holes in my condoms like a strange highschool nightmare girl.

So, in a way, better not to have sex at all. When you are having sex with someone you don't trust there can't be any intimacy there. I still benefited from the physical release quite a bit, but compared with how it used to be and how it should be? Pretty pathetic.

[karma_gal]

I am new here and aside from my introduction post haven't posted anything yet.  I have spent hours on end reading through old posts, getting the lay of the land, and reading through each board to see where I belong. 

This post caught my eye because it has been an ongoing issue in my marriage.  I constantly say we have no connection.  I feel used every time we have sex.  I feel like there's nothing there.  I feel like I could be any woman in the world that he's having sex with -- that he's not doing it because he loves me particularly but because I'm available.  He initiates the same teenage-boy inspired way every single time, does his thing, and in two minutes flat it's over... .leaving me with nothing gained at all but losing so much each and every time we have sex. 

As a result of this and so many other of his behaviors our intimate life sucks.  I just can't make myself WANT to be intimate with him because it leaves me feeling so empty and dirty and used up.  I have explained to him a million times that I need foreplay, that I need a connection outside of the bedroom to want to be intimate with him, that I need something more than, "Wanna do it?" and yet it falls on deaf ears. 

We are currently in a cycle of him raging because I won't be intimate and me digging my heels in the sand and refusing to continue doing something that makes me feel so bad, so used, and so empty.  We can't find a middle ground.  He honestly has zero clue what I'm asking for from him, even though I've written it down and explained it 100 ways to Sunday.  He insists that my wanting a connection is abnormal and asking too much and is what fairy tales are made of, not real life relationships.   

Those of you living like this, how are you dealing with this issue so that everyone is happy, or at least feels comfortable with the situation?  I am just tired of feeling like a prostitute that he uses for his release with absolutely nothing in it for me, and not even money on the table, and he professes not to understand what emotional intimacy is and why it's important.  This is an every week argument for us and it's getting ridiculous. 

I'm not at a point yet where I've decided what to do -- to stay or leave -- and so this is an issue I need to find a resolution to in the meantime. 

[hergestridge]

Karma_gal:

What happens when you initiate sex? Does he agree to have foreplay or does he get down to his business straight away? My BPD wife has wants full power over in bed and that's kind of the problem. Everything but her rigid "routine" or a forceful quickie "bores" her, and she even tells me so when we're in bed.

[karma_gal]

hergestridge:

Whether I initiate or he does, it's the same routine:  Grab a boob, touch my genitals, do the deed, all over in two to three minutes.  It's like he has no idea what foreplay is or why it's important.  Ten times out of ten I am taking care of myself, and so sex just seems pointless to me because I literally get nothing out of it. 

Regarding routines and such as you described your wife, I would say that is my husband.  It's like he only knows one way to have sex, and that's it.  I have tried to introduce a bit of adventure, new positions, et cetera, and it's like he has no clue how to act if the sequence of events isn't exactly what he's used to doing.  It's like it throws him off or something and he is lost as to what to do next.  I saw reference in another thread on this board -- I've been reading for days and the post was like two years ago -- that it's like having sex with a teenage boy -- it's clumsy, quick, and not at all fulfilling.  I don't remember this being an issue when were dating.  It seems he was more open to being a satisfying partner sexually then; after we were married, it was like all of a sudden he acted like he didn't know what to do anymore or something. 

I suppose if I were more like your wife -- and I'm only saying this based on your post -- and didn't find sex exciting, was frigid, this wouldn't bother me so much.  But I've really come into my own sexually and I'm at an age where my drive is higher than it's ever been.  I WANT to have sex... .just not with him, because it leaves me feeling so empty that I lose part of myself every time I agree just to end an argument. 

[froggy]

Karma_gal

Think we are married to the same man.

He just doesn't get it... .I tell him what I want and need... .it's like I'm speaking a foreign language.

He'll warm the car up when it's cold.

He can't seem to be bothered. He use to make an effort but like yours it's exactly the same thing and like you fedl like I should at least get some money or something.

I've told him I don't get anything out of it but also get belittled for taking care of my own needs.

I've given up trying... starting to go to bed way after him ... just avoiding having sex because it's gotten so bad. Tired of being left frustrated.

[karma_gal]

Karma_gal

Think we are married to the same man.

He just doesn't get it... .I tell him what I want and need... .it's like I'm speaking a foreign language.

He'll warm the car up when it's cold.

He can't seem to be bothered. He use to make an effort but like yours it's exactly the same thing and like you fedl like I should at least get some money or something.

I've told him I don't get anything out of it but also get belittled for taking care of my own needs.

I've given up trying... starting to go to bed way after him ... just avoiding having sex because it's gotten so bad. Tired of being left frustrated.

I'm not sure at this point if mine doesn't get it or just refuses to do anything that I ask, quite honestly.  He is terribly passive-aggressive and is constantly "punishing" me for something or other.  Lord knows as much porn as he watches, he should've picked something of use up... .but I still get the bare minimum, "all about him" sex, and I'm sick of it.  Like you, I stay up into the early morning hours, just to avoid him.  That works, but he still makes it a huge issue every week.  I keep trying to appeal to him by saying, "If you would work on meet my intimacy needs, I would be more inclined to have sex."  Of course, he has no interest in doing that, but I'm still the evil one when I won't give in to his needs.  I can't win either way.  I get belittled for taking care of my needs, as well, but he sees no issue with his porn addiction.  The constant double standard.  I give up. 

I've come really close lately to considering having an affair... .but I refuse to compromise my integrity.  I still haven't figured out which board I belong on here, because as much as I would like to stay for now -- to get some financial things taken care of, get through a surgery, and secure my own health insurance because ours is carried through his job right now -- every fiber of my being just wants out of this mess. 

Do you guys have much of a relationship outside of the bedroom, or do you just kind of live in tandem?  We have this weird relationship, where he does his thing, I try to do mine... .but he b!tches and moans any time I try to do something without him.  One of my best friends just found out her husband was cheating on her.  I said earlier tonight that I thought I was going to fly in next weekend to see her and be there for her.  He threw the biggest tantrum ever, saying that he couldn't hold down the fort for "an entire weekend."  Mind you, this is the same man who in the course of the last year has lived somewhere else five months because he throws fits and leaves and refuses to tell me where he is or answer calls.  For me, I think it's the totality of things that has me beat down -- the constant manipulation, subtle control tactics, being financially reckless, and zero intimacy.  Not much there to work with or want to stay for, you know? 

I laughed when you said yours will warm the car up when it's cold.  In my intro post, I posted about how my battery died in my car.  I called my husband and asked him to pick me a new one up on the way home, and he came home with a gallon of windshield washer fluid.  Really?  I asked him why he bought that instead of a battery and he told me "it's best to be prepared for winter."  Um, yeah, you moron, I get that... .but I kind of need a battery so the car will start before I give two hoots about a clean windshield. 

I am seriously glad I found this board because I have wondered often in the last year or so whether I was the crazy one who was just expecting too much.  I can't tell you the number of threads that I could have written over various issues.  It saddens me that so many of us are living in these chaotic, empty marriages.  I get that BPD people think differently than we do, but I guess I just can't make myself believe that they are this clueless to the damage they're doing.  I can't imagine for two seconds what it would be like to act that way. 

[hurtbyboderline]

Sex to my exBPDGF was so unemotional & purely physical it was unbelievable. When she wanted to have sex she'd say one of two things; "I'm horny, do you want to stick it in"? Or "would you tell me a story"? The 'story' was her favorite. I'd talk dirty to her while she'd used her vibrator & watched porn. The grosser the story the better. The minute she'd climax she'd just want to stop & do something else. It was gross... .Hated foreplay & after play. Of course it wasn't like this at first! At first it was 'porn star sex'! Towards the end she got so control crazy & self centered it was unbelievable. If I wanted to be inside her she'd even want me to get it hard. Ask her to get on top? You'd thing I'd of asked her to run the LA marathon. Yep, how romantic can you get; ":)o you want to stick it in"? And after two strokes it was; "Would you cum now, I'm tired"? I used to tell her it was to bad she didn't just have a button she could push to climax so she didn't have to go through all the hassles. She'd look at me with a straight face & agree. Guess she didn't realize I was kidding... .It got to be easier to just play with myself. Of course, I couldn't let her know. She considered me playing with myself as cheating on her. Oh, I never cheated on her but caught her cheating on me... .I've been with two other women since I left her & oh wow! I'd forgotten how good sex could be! I was lost in the FOG for years!  zzz