Need to vent. Lawyer making me crazy.

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

My fiance has been trying to get residential custody for over a year at this point. We live out of state from the kids so my fiance got a recommendation for a lawyer in the state of jurisdiction and has been working with her since day one in that state. Long story short, neither he nor BPDex live in the state they were divorced in any longer so a new parenting plan had to be entered into in BPDex's new state and my fiancé didn't know better than to ask for the bare minimum of parenting time that she might be willing to sign. So, crappy starting point.

Well, we sent our lawyer an email on September 3rd very specifically stating that we were prepared to move forward on Contempt round 2, Custody of both kids, and asking the judge to allow a custody investigation to get someone into that house and see what the living conditions are like for these kids. After we sent the email I had him call the L's office and speak to her paralegal about the email and how important it was that we get a response. We told them in the email we need a court date for before the end of November.

Two weeks go by. Nothing. We call and the paralegal tells us the L has been busy but she expects they will get to it soon. Two more weeks go by. Nothing. We finally get the L on the phone and she tells us she is moving law firms. (I did some research, there was no one at the firm besides her who would have been good for our type of case.) So we sign something saying she can move our case with her. She assures us that she will do everything she can to get us a court date for November. At this point we are angry because it is already October and she's clearly done nothing. Spoke to her last week. She says she will gave something for us by the end of the week. We hear nothing. Then today my fiance calls her new office only to get told that she still has done nothing because her new computer is not hooked up yet.

So in short, there is now literally no way we can get a November court date and I strongly suspect we will be stuck just finally dealing with this sometime early next year. Neanwhile BPDex is sitting pretty not even currently having a lawyer and the kids are slowly getting brainwashed that there father is the bad guy. Kinda hard to combat that when he only gets one phone call a week in which she hovers over them and we won't even see the kids until Christmas.

I am so beyond angry. There is literally nothing I can do about the situation either. I know everyone will say "get a new lawyer" but even if we did that it doesn't help anything now. Sorry just needed to vent.

[Nope]

My fiance has been trying to get residential custody for over a year at this point. We live out of state from the kids so my fiance got a recommendation for a lawyer in the state of jurisdiction and has been working with her since day one in that state. Long story short, neither he nor BPDex live in the state they were divorced in any longer so a new parenting plan had to be entered into in BPDex's new state and my fiancé didn't know better than to ask for the bare minimum of parenting time that she might be willing to sign. So, crappy starting point.

Well, we sent our lawyer an email on September 3rd very specifically stating that we were prepared to move forward on Contempt round 2, Custody of both kids, and asking the judge to allow a custody investigation to get someone into that house and see what the living conditions are like for these kids. After we sent the email I had him call the L's office and speak to her paralegal about the email and how important it was that we get a response. We told them in the email we need a court date for before the end of November.

Two weeks go by. Nothing. We call and the paralegal tells us the L has been busy but she expects they will get to it soon. Two more weeks go by. Nothing. We finally get the L on the phone and she tells us she is moving law firms. (I did some research, there was no one at the firm besides her who would have been good for our type of case.) So we sign something saying she can move our case with her. She assures us that she will do everything she can to get us a court date for November. At this point we are angry because it is already October and she's clearly done nothing. Spoke to her last week. She says she will gave something for us by the end of the week. We hear nothing. Then today my fiance calls her new office only to get told that she still has done nothing because her new computer is not hooked up yet.

So in short, there is now literally no way we can get a November court date and I strongly suspect we will be stuck just finally dealing with this sometime early next year. Neanwhile BPDex is sitting pretty not even currently having a lawyer and the kids are slowly getting brainwashed that there father is the bad guy. Kinda hard to combat that when he only gets one phone call a week in which she hovers over them and we won't even see the kids until Christmas.

I am so beyond angry. There is literally nothing I can do about the situation either. I know everyone will say "get a new lawyer" but even if we did that it doesn't help anything now. Sorry just needed to vent.

[livednlearned]

That's straight up incompetence. You may be able to get the remainder of your retainer back, if that's how you set things up. Others here have done that

Maybe email her:

"L, we retained you date/year and emailed you date/year, date/year, date/year, date/year about the issue of xyz. On date/year you said you would get back to us by date/year. On date/year, you said this. Then you said that. Then you said this and this, and we found out from your former law firm that you were leaving.

It is now date/year, and your recent excuse for not filing our motion is that your computer was not hooked up. Your lack of professional conduct has caused us serious delays in our case, and we are doing xyz to terminate you as our counsel. We request that you return our funds (check with others here about what is reasonable to ask for, not sure you would get the whole amount, but maybe ask for it, knowing you will only get the remainder refunded to you). If we do not hear from you in 3 business days, we will report this matter to your State Bar and provide documentation."

[Matt]

You can write directly to the court, and just tell the judge what you told us.  Not sure what the court will do but maybe you can at least let the judge know what you are going through.

You can probably also file a complaint with your state's bar association, as LnL suggests, and they may help you get the money back.

Fire the lawyer and make it clear in your letter to her why you are doing it.  That might reduce the risk that she will victimize others like this.

I like LnL's e-mail, except maybe I wouldn't be quite so polite.

[Nope]

Unfortunately, my fiance is adamant that he does not want to have to start over with a new lawyer. It would literally take hours to get someone new up to speed at this point.(In his mind, anyway. I honestly don't think she looks at anything until right before the pretrial meeting with the other lawyer.) So, now I guess we are going to have a phone conference with the L to talk about "how she can make this right". 

Of course, we need to wait until the paralegal can get back to us about when the L is available for a teleconference. And she won't know the answer to that until the computers are working and she can look at the calendar.

[Matt]

Unfortunately, my fiance is adamant that he does not want to have to start over with a new lawyer. It would literally take hours to get someone new up to speed at this point.(In his mind, anyway. I honestly don't think she looks at anything until right before the pretrial meeting with the other lawyer.) So, now I guess we are going to have a phone conference with the L to talk about "how she can make this right". 

Of course, we need to wait until the paralegal can get back to us about when the L is available for a teleconference. And she won't know the answer to that until the computers are working and she can look at the calendar.

I went through this same thing.  My first lawyer was smart, professional, and poised, and he seemed to know what he was doing.  After a few months I realized he was handling my case as if the other party was a different kind of person, and it wasn't working.  I tried to talk to him about it but he didn't listen and sometimes didn't respond in a timely way.  Others here told me, "Make a change ASAP." but I stalled for pretty much the same reasons as your fiancee.

Finally I decided I had to set a boundary, and I wrote my lawyer an e-mail:  "I will be at your office at 9:00 Wednesday to discuss how we will handle Friday's hearing."  (We had a hearing coming up and I hadn't seen any preparation - he pretty much told me he was going to wing it.)  Notice that my note was about what I would do - not a demand for what he would do - the best form for a boundary if you can make it work.

No response to my e-mail so I went to his office at 9:00, and he acted surprised to see me, and pretty much let me know he didn't want to talk to me.  So I laid it out:  "I'm here to make sure we are prepared for Friday's hearing." and I didn't leave his office.  He was honest enough to admit, "This isn't working out.  That's not how I work." so I said I needed to make a change and asked him to delay the hearing.

My point being, if there is no boundary (and I wish I had set one much earlier) the lawyer will continue to abuse her client.  Most of us are here at bpdfamily.com because we have a tendency to let ourselves be abused;  if not, we wouldn't have gone into relationships with someone who has BPD.  I've let other people abuse me too, in my life - it's something I have to own and work on.  And one way to do that is by setting boundaries.

So... .my suggestion would be - if your fiancee isn't ready to just fire her - try to set some clear boundaries - what is acceptable and what isn't - and communicate those in a non-confrontational way.

For example, maybe a weekly 10-minute status update, at a time that is convenient for the attorney.  Or some other way to make sure each week's work is getting done - maybe some weekly tasks that are agreed to.  Basically some people need more structure - tighter management - than others.  Your fiancee is the boss and the attorney is his employee, and she doesn't seem to function well without close supervision, so he probably has to provide that, by talking with her and setting weekly tasks to be complete, and the idea has to be - though he may not state it bluntly - "If you do these tasks each week then you will continue to be my lawyer.  If not, then not."  Maybe he can find a way to say that with more subtlety, but still clearly, so she knows that she has to do the work.

Many lawyers seem to sense our weakness and prey on it.  In any other field (except maybe medicine and government) it's just unacceptable not to return someone's call, or not to do the tasks that are needed in a timely way.  In my field, if a customer sent me an e-mail asking a question or asking me to perform a task, and I ignored it, that would be completely unacceptable - it's normal to respond within hours.

There are attorneys who perform that way too, or at least who respond as soon as they can.  My criminal defense attorney - I called him when I got out of jail, on a Sunday afternoon, assuming he would call me back the next morning.  He called me back in just a few minutes - on a Sunday - and spent time on the phone, helping me when I needed it, and without a retainer (which I gave him the next day).  He helped me like a friend would, though I wasn't his friend or even his client at that point.  Then I gave him my business - I had been falsely charged with assault by my BPD wife - and he did a great job.

So... .while many attorneys are abusive, and I'm sorry you guys hooked up with one, others are professionals who do their job and communicate well with their clients.  You really don't have to put up with this abusive behavior.  Setting some boundaries may help you and your fiancee get through this and either get this attorney to do her job right, or help you to accept that she is a loser and you need to find a winner.

[DreamGirl]

I think lawyers are a lot like therapists.

You need to find the right fit - and that doesn't always get accomplished with the first one you try.

[livednlearned]

Unfortunately, my fiance is adamant that he does not want to have to start over with a new lawyer. It would literally take hours to get someone new up to speed at this point.(In his mind, anyway. I honestly don't think she looks at anything until right before the pretrial meeting with the other lawyer.) So, now I guess we are going to have a phone conference with the L to talk about "how she can make this right". 

Sticking with an L because you don't want to bring another one up to speed -- that thinking is not part of a winning strategy.

Her computer doesn't work so she can't see her calendar? This is the 21st century. Totally unacceptable. Only thing that would be acceptable is if she wrote you and said, "To offset the problems my move has caused, including delays to your case, I will not bill you for 5 hours of work." Or something like that.

Matt is right, we tend to be people who are doormats. This L is not going to change. She's already three strikes and no change in sight.

Sorry -- it sucks. Last thing you need.

[Nope]

Thank you all so much for listening and understanding.

Matt, that's some great advice. Now at least I know how that conversation needs to go.

I highly doubt the partners at her new firm will let her do any unpaid work over a screw up that happened mostly at her old firm. But if we do leave I will be writing an email to the named partners of this new firm letting them know why.

I've been so hesitant with all of this because it isn't technically my case. I feel like I don't really have a lot of power in how this goes but at the same time my fiance is usually just willing to follow my lead. I have a feeling she won't be happy about the ten minute weekly calls but she will do them or I will go find us a new lawyer and have the change over half done before my fiance even knows what hit him. He'd probably do it if it was easy.

It just stinks because BPDex is going to be on lawyer #4 and the consistency of having had the same one all the way through looks better.

[Matt]

Thank you all so much for listening and understanding.

Matt, that's some great advice. Now at least I know how that conversation needs to go.

I highly doubt the partners at her new firm will let her do any unpaid work over a screw up that happened mostly at her old firm. But if we do leave I will be writing an email to the named partners of this new firm letting them know why.

I've been so hesitant with all of this because it isn't technically my case. I feel like I don't really have a lot of power in how this goes but at the same time my fiance is usually just willing to follow my lead. I have a feeling she won't be happy about the ten minute weekly calls but she will do them or I will go find us a new lawyer and have the change over half done before my fiance even knows what hit him. He'd probably do it if it was easy.

It just stinks because BPDex is going to be on lawyer #4 and the consistency of having had the same one all the way through looks better.

So... .a couple more thoughts on what you wrote... .

One is - just brainstorming - what if you view this as an issue of poor management.  Suppose Ms. Attorney has the skills but needs better supervision.  I suggested ways your fiancee might provide that supervision, like a weekly status call and weekly tasks.  But maybe another approach is to find out if someone at the firm - more senior partners - could do that supervision.

Maybe a call or meeting with a senior partner, to frankly tell her what is going on:

"I like Ms. Attorney and I think she has the skills for my case, but we're having some serious problems that need to be fixed quickly.  I need to know that my questions will be answered in a timely way, and that the case will be handled without excessive delays.

"Can I ask you to meet with her a few times a week, and check that she is doing what's needed?  And give me a short note or call with an update?  Can I also ask you to look in on her communications - I will cc: you on each e-mail - and make sure she knows she is expected to respond in a timely way?"

The senior partner might respond very helpfully, or maybe not.  Then you'll know whether it is a firm worth sticking with, or a whole team of losers and abusers.

Also - "I've been so hesitant with all of this because it isn't technically my case." - this is a key point too.  Do you think your fiancee might want to join here, and join this conversation?  Or do you need to just accept that he will handle things as he thinks best, and hope he learns from the results - being passive with someone who is abusing him, like Ms. Attorney, tends to make things worse... .?

[scraps66]

I went through this, rationalizing not changing attorneys for a whole scenario of reasons.  In retrospect, that bit of complacency cost me dearly, about $10k in legal fees and $8k in settlement fees for a missed deadline with the unethical attorney.  In retrospect, I regretted letting myself down like that, not changing attorneys when everyone on here, and my gut, told me that was the right thing to do.  So, I suggest not making that mistake.  What would make you think this attorney will miraculously change spots after all the opportunity she's already been given to right the ship?

BTW, I am fighting this fight right now with a new attorney, no return e-mails, no return phone calls and no modified custody order.  I don't get it, maybe it is true that the family law attorneys are the absolute bottom of the barrel, but this is a bit much. 

[Nope]

Matt - Unfortunately, since she is now starting a new job in a different law firm (where she is a partner) the only thing going to the more senior partners is likely to do is make her angry and even less helpful. The teleconference is set for Tuesday. I intend to ask for deliverables that prove she's been doing anything for our case. (I suspect that if she wants to keep us she'll be busting her tail all weekend.) I also intend to bring up once a week calls. If I see deliverables and she is willing to commit to weekly calls then we are good. I think I have my fiance convinced at this point that if she isn't showing signs of being willing to work with us on this then we can take our case elsewhere. To that end, between now and Tuesday I need to find us some options.

Scraps - I am starting to get that same feeling about bottom of the barrel. On out L's last work website there were times and dates listed where she was giving talks for women to attend who want an overview of their legal options for getting out of bad marriages and protecting their kids. She looks great on paper. Guess she just isn't that overly concerned in a case involving a father trying to help his kids, even though the mother is a neglectful and vicious piece of work.

[Matt]

To that end, between now and Tuesday I need to find us some options.

Yeah - good idea.  Knowing there are other options will help you keep your expectations in a good range - not too low.

[scraps66]

One other thing that I've learned, don't get hopes up and prepare for the outlandishly irrational and unexpected to happen.  Going to court may help, it may also not help, be inconsequential or get worse.  I'm not saying be negative or pessimistic, but don't "bank" on things improving as a matter of going to court.  Do everything you can outside of court to improve things, and then if court does in fact help the situation, that's a bonus.

I have so many times gone to court, armed with information, only to have the issues at hand foreshadowed by BPD-BS.  Another reason to find a good l who will support your plan.   

[Free One]

I think you already know this, but maybe this would be a helpful way to explain to fiance: You don't need another person in your life who is disrespectful of you, your time and needs.

Your fiance may be used to being treated this way from ex, but it IS unprofessional from a lawyer.

My other two cents, it seems weird he always have to go through the paralegal to talk to the lawyer. I am able to call and speak to my lawyer if she's available or leave a message and she will call me back. I also have her direct email, and will typically get a response within 24 hours, and if not, I get a response with an explanation (i.e. she was out of the office). Granted, if I have a question her paralegals can answer, I also have the ability to contact them directly by phone or email to save $.

[Nope]

Thank you for all input. I just don't think he realized he had the right to expect better. Looking at it from the outside it's a classic abuse scenario. Any time he'd question the L's commitment to the case she would refer to BPD mom as "that b... ." or say something else forceful to show she cared on a personal level. But her actions clearly don't match. Any time in the past that communication or production expectations haven't been met she's found ways to blame my fiance for it. Any time a normal person would have called for clarification she has just ignored our case, not returned calls and then said "Well, I didn't do anything because I didn't know what you wanted me to do." She has made mistakes that have cost us dearly. (Like telling my fiance not to brother reporting a cigarette burn on S9's arm because "they won't do anything about it".) Not to mention letting my fiance sign on to a crappy overly "fair" parenting plan to begin with.

Sorry for more venting but I've just found us a new lawyer who I actually like and I'm about to propose her to my fiance and his mom as a good potential replacement. She has experience with high conflict cases, has been in front of our judge, did a much better job of explaining how a custody investigation will work, and is actually a bit less expensive. But the drawback is that she is young and has only been doing this for three years. On the plus side, this sort of family law is the only thing she does. So *fingers crossed*.

[Matt]

One thing to consider is whether you need a great lawyer, or a good lawyer with a solid plan.

A great lawyer who can't or won't give you a clear plan - what actions she will take - to achieve your objectives, is probably a waste of money.

An OK lawyer who will listen to your objectives, and buy into them, and give you a step-by-step plan - of course there are always contingencies depending how things go - but some clear steps to move you toward your objectives - that's probably what you need.

And if she is competent and cooperative, she should be glad to have weekly update calls and a to-do list - who will do what when - what tasks she will complete each week.  If not, she's avoiding accountability, hoping you'll get in deep with her and then you'll be reluctant to change... .

[Free One]

She has made mistakes that have cost us dearly. (Like telling my fiance not to brother reporting a cigarette burn on S9's arm because "they won't do anything about it".)

Another sign of a good lawyer (in my opinion) is one who can take situations like this and say, "This is how the court may look at this", not "they won't do anything about it". They should be able to use their experience and advice to help YOU make decisions that benefit your case. Also, something I truly admire about my lawyer is the ability to say to me "I know you are angry, but you need to look at this from your child's perspective."

I'm sorry this happened to fiance's son. I can't imagine any scenario where this would be ok and I'm sorry a supposed professional minimized an abusive situation. I know how damaging it can be to work with a professional who isn't professional. It just adds to the FOG.

[scraps66]

"They won't do anything about it," translates into lawyer lingo as, "I may not have the skill or the interest in presenting that topic to a judge for fear of not toting the party line in the courthouse."  Something to this effect.  Also, as Matt says, if your lawyer cannot come up with a plan, or orchestrate your plan, that's probably not the lawyer for you.  If some of your questions are met with, "Not sure... .or... .I don't know," look elsewhere.  The decent lawyers an alwasy give you a range of expectations.     

[Matt]

The decent lawyers an alwasy give you a range of expectations.     

Yeah - key point.

No honest lawyer will give you a guarantee.  Some will try to lower your expectations - tell you what can't be done not what can be done.  They seem to find it easier to talk down their clients' expectations than to meet them.  They are losers.

As Scraps says, a good attorney will tell you different ways it might play out - how the court is likely to view it - what her experience tells her is most likely.

And - regarding the custody issues - it is always best to make your case in terms of what is best for the kids long-term - not what you want or what the other party wants, or what is "fair".

My wife, at one point, said, "Well I think I'm entitled to... ." and the judge cut her off:  "Ms. Matt, you're not entitled to anything.  We're here to determine what is best for the kids."  A parent (and attorney) who always speak in those terms will do better.

[Nope]

OK. Well. I have my fiance's mom on board with my thoughts on this. My fiance still wants to "hear her out" on Tuesday.

And I just discovered another problem. Due to a hard economic hit we've taken in the last few months, the L talked to the other partners at the old firm and reduced our rate. When she told us she was leaving that firm she assured us that we would continue to pay the same rate as a deal she worked out at the new firm. Well, I just looked at the last two bills and they are both at the old rate. I didn't notice this before because I haven't really involved myself in the lawyer part of our case until now. All bills were supposed to be at the new rate as of September. Anyone else starting think she actually wants us to fire her?

[catnap]

Record the conference call if legal to do so where you live or advise her you are recording the call to aid you in remembering.

Well, I just looked at the last two bills and they are both at the old rate. I didn't notice this before because I haven't really involved myself in the lawyer part of our case until now. All bills were supposed to be at the new rate as of September.

On Tuesday, ask if she still intends to keep the lower rate she offered.  Get her to confirm or deny before bringing up the issue of the billing.  If she denies, IMO it is definitely time to find a new L; if she confirms ask for a new bill reflecting the lowered rate. 

[enigma58]

I don't know what State you're in, however, in the State of Wisconsin, you can check with The State of Wisconsin to see if there is legal recourse for you, because your Lawyer, isn't fulfilling their legal duty to you, as a client, in a timely manner.  Please understand, I'm not a Lawyer, just someone going through a situation with a Lawyer NOT doing his required duties.