Devaluation of S3, starting...

[Turkish]

I haven't posted much on here yet... .still stuck on L3. In short:

She told me she didn't want to be with me anymore, didn't love me.

Two weeks later, I found out about the affair. By that point, I was abandoned to our counselor (she went twice by herself, then quit). I've been going every week for two months.

She's still in my house. I won't kick her out due to the kids. I told her it was over a month ago, when despite my 110% effort (which in a moment of lucidity, she acknowledged), I found out her lying to me became pathological. Hence I put the final nail in the coffin and said it was "done."

In any case, it started going downhill just about a year ago, blowing up finally in early August. I have already observed her being harder on our S3, than D16 mos. D seems more like me, tough, emotionally regulated, as far as a baby can be. S3 is very sweet and kind overall, but now might be going into the "terrible fours."

8 or 9 months ago, she even admitted to me that I was better with the kids than she was (meaning, I could handle them better). But given her mistrust of men and devaluation of them (due to her father, and also her brothers being held on pedestals... .a cultural thing there, too), I have seen her throw devaluing comments at our son.

Last week, in the midst of her being stressed out about applying for housing, S3 was being a little rambunctious, but nothing really that bad, IMO. She threw out the F-bomb at him. I told her that was unacceptable and sent her back to her room (almost literally, like a little kid!).

On Friday, he threw a tantrum at the store, so she came home early, threw out another F-bomb at him (he was still crying and acting out), then left them both with me while she went to get some dinner. He kept up the tantrum for another 1/2 hour, but slowly calmed down (a combination of me talking, then putting him on timeout in my bedroom, then getting him to play with me and D1). She came home later, calmer after she ate and tried to get the kids to eat. She then apologized to S3 for getting so angry, and also for blasting the music in the car (presumably to not hear him cry... .keep in mind our D1 was also in the car).

I have been writing everything down by hand in a journal starting from two weeks ago. I included these incidents. She loves him to death (to be cynical, to fulfill her need to be needed), but alternates that with "losing it" as in the incidents I outlined above. Now, we verbally agree on 50/50, having yet to work out details since she hasn't found a place yet. I, one of her brothers, and also my T think that I will just end up having them more than 50% of the time due to her needing to do what she needs to do. She would deny this, but then she denies a lot of things that are easily provable. But that is BPD, the reality in her mind. When that starts, I will log everything electronically also (as in a spreadsheet, times, dates, comments, etc.)

I live in CA, USA. Is something like my journal worth anything from a legal perspective, should it come to that later?

FYI, I am meeting for a consultation with an AT soon, but I just wanted to get a perspective from those experienced here. She already has diagnosed depression... .hence I experienced similar behaviors myself as the child of a single, severely depressed mother. My mom has some BPD traits, but is not. pwBPD's T, whom she sees sporadically, has missed the BPD thing, of which I am positive (at least as much as a layperson could be).

[DreamGirl]

What do you think the best custody schedule would be?

[Turkish]

What do you think the best custody schedule would be?

I just got back from talking to a lawyer (female). She said 3/2/3 or whatever that is (I was originally of the opinion of 7/7, but considering their age... .). The funny thing is that I was not 5 mins in talking, told her that my SO is diagnosed with depression, but that I thought that was some other underlying PD there. The lawyer said,

"BPD"

Wow. She said she could see it in my face when I walked in.

She gave me almost a 50 min free consultation. I said I appreciated her taking extra time, and she said, no problem, I needed it. Her opinion was to move fast with writing something up and offering it to my pwBPDex while she was still living in my house, because after she moves out, she will get more unstable, and that you never know what little birds will start talking in her ear (like a gold-digging boyfriend). I said that it made sense. The CS was by the book, guidline, no getting around that (I make over twice her salary... .they're my kids, my responsibility, it is what it is, and that is life... .just have to batten down the hatches financially, but I will make do somehow).

She was also of the opinion of writing up the contact with our future SOs to have a 1 year period before introducing them. I said I had heard 6 months was good, but she said she tends to lean conservative. Besides, did I think my pwBPDex could make a 1 year relationship last? (not now, but probably later). I said, good point!

[ForeverDad]

I recall I wanted 7/7 when my son was about 6 years old and our custody evaluator, a child psychologist, stated that would be more appropriate for older children, that more frequent visits would be better.

For equal time with children under age 10 the CE recommended 5/2/2/5.

  Mon & Tue overnights - Parent 1

  Wed & Thu overnights - Parent 2

  Alternate 3 overnight weekends - each parent

That way each parent gets equal time but 5 overnight long weekends.

I also made sure my order gave priority to non-confrontational exchanges at school, daycare or from the sitter.  The in-person encounters were to likely to trigger my ex and heighten the tensions and conflict.  We met at the exchange location only if the exchange hadn't already happened earlier at school, daycare, etc.

Beware of being too fair, too considerate, too whatever.  Set aside your emotions and otherwise excellent sense of 'fairness'.  Think logically and strategically, put what is best for the children first, your ex is way, way down the list.  When you shift from rescuing the marriage to rescuing yourself and the children, you have to step back, stop rescuing the ex and change priorities to yourself and the children.

If you can't settle on parenting time beforehand... .Remember you are likely ask for what seems fair, she will demand it all.  So ponder your strategy well and try not to be caught off guard.  When before the judge, you don't want the judge to even ponder splitting the difference, or else you'll walk out with minimal time and empty pockets.  Sometimes I describe this assertive approach... ."Your honor, I believe rhe children would do best with me, I've taken care of them much of the time since they were born, however if you think it better at this point since the evaluations aren't in yet, I am reasonable and I can accept equal time with our children."  Do you see?  Ask for just as much as she wants (likely by then she may end up asking for the moon, sun and all stars) then offer to accept equal time as the least favorable but still reasonable option.

Often neither parent gets what he or she wants.  Your spouse may ask for it all, she won't get it.  If you ask for just fair equal time, you may not get it either.  You'd both get less than you asked for but you'd have less than your spouse.  If you start with 'fair' equal time you'll likely get less.  You might get less anyway but at least present your case from the start that you're a stable and capable parent seeking as much parenting time as possible.

3-2-3 ... .How would that work out?

[Turkish]

I recall I wanted 7/7 when my son was about 6 years old and our custody evaluator, a child psychologist, stated that would be more appropriate for older children, that more frequent visits would be better.

For equal time with children under age 10 the CE recommended 5/2/2/5.

  Mon & Tue overnights - Parent 1

  Wed & Thu overnights - Parent 2

  Alternate 3 overnight weekends - each parent

That way each parent gets equal time but 5 overnight long weekends.

I also made sure my order gave priority to non-confrontational exchanges at school, daycare or from the sitter.  The in-person encounters were to likely to trigger my ex and heighten the tensions and conflict.  We met at the exchange location only if the exchange hadn't already happened earlier at school, daycare, etc.

Beware of being too fair, too considerate, too whatever.  Set aside your emotions and otherwise excellent sense of 'fairness'.  Think logically and strategically, put what is best for the children first, your ex is way, way down the list.  When you shift from rescuing the marriage to rescuing yourself and the children, you have to step back, stop rescuing the ex and change priorities to yourself and the children.

If you can't settle on parenting time beforehand... .Remember you are likely ask for what seems fair, she will demand it all.  So ponder your strategy well and try not to be caught off guard.  When before the judge, you don't want the judge to even ponder splitting the difference, or else you'll walk out with minimal time and empty pockets.  Sometimes I describe this assertive approach... ."Your honor, I believe rhe children would do best with me, I've taken care of them much of the time since they were born, however if you think it better at this point since the evaluations aren't in yet, I am reasonable and I can accept equal time with our children."  Do you see?  Ask for just as much as she wants (likely by then she may end up asking for the moon, sun and all stars) then offer to accept equal time as the least favorable but still reasonable option.

Often neither parent gets what he or she wants.  Your spouse may ask for it all, she won't get it.  If you ask for just fair equal time, you may not get it either.  You'd both get less than you asked for but you'd have less than your spouse.  If you start with 'fair' equal time you'll likely get less.  You might get less anyway but at least present your case from the start that you're a stable and capable parent seeking as much parenting time as possible.

3-2-3 ... .How would that work out?

I got this from the web:

"The 2-2-3 schedule is one of the many choices for a 50/50 physical custody schedule. Your child will stay with one parent for two days of the week and the remaining two days with the other parent. The 3 day weekend then alternates from one parent to the other."

I am actually open to anything. Over a month ago, one of our last big fights, she was scared to not have the kids when I offered 7/7. Then two weeks ago, just after I asked her to stop going out at all hours of the night (about two nights a week) while I was home with the kids, she was open to the 7/7. Based on what I think, and also our (mine now, since she quit going) T thought, I will just end up having more time with them no matter what schedule we try. I am open to anything that is best for the kids (short of reconciliation... .which I think is impossible at this point, though she might try the recycle). My opinion on the 7/7 is that she is thinking she needs time to herself to do what she is going to do. It will give her freedom. Since her mom will be watching them, she and I can see them anyway on the way to work, or getting off work, even on our off days. Everything tells me that we can co-parent well, since we always kind of did... .but I assume nothing when BPD is thrown into the mix, even with a high functioning one (most of the time) like mine.

As long as I always keep the kids in mind, as it should be, then her family will be supportive of me by proxy... .for the kids. They in no way approve of what she has done, or is doing. In that, I am lucky.

[ForeverDad]

My 5/2/2/5 is the same as your 2/2/3, just described differently.

But beware of being too willing to let her grab more official time.  There are several disadvantages.  First, every time she gets triggered or gets cycled back into mother mode, she could clamp back down and demand her time and rule the roost again.  You don't want to enable that kind of chaos if you can avoid it.  Second, if she has official majority time then it would be much harder to later improve your parenting with a better official schedule.  Third, don't tell the judge this, you don't want to give any indication that $$$ are a factor, if you gift her a majority schedule, then you'd be required to pay her more even if she left the parenting to you.  You might get that fixed later on, but it would take time and a lot of legal expense.

For that reason, try to get the best schedule you can from the very beginning, of course, without unnecessarily triggering your spouse into an Entitled Retaliatory phase.

And don't forget, if you can, seek to be Residential Parent for School Purposes.  Don't make it seem like a big thing, make it like a chore, having to go to PT conferences all the time, blah, blah.  Remember, everything is strategy, let her stay preoccupied with her BFs, etc.  Even though RP is generally said to be meaningless as far as custody goes, it did make a difference for me.  (When the ex raged at the school within weeks of the final decree, the principal told me to take my kid, transfer immediately to my school and not wait for the school year to finish.)  Also, stability is an important factor.  My ex has lived in at least 4 places since she left.  I haven't moved in 10 years.  Imagine a child possibly having to change school every couple years.  Changing schools is not horrendous of course, but if the kids don't have to move from school to school, then spare them that chaos and upheaval.

[Turkish]

My 5/2/2/5 is the same as your 2/2/3, just described differently.

But beware of being too willing to let her grab more official time.  There are several disadvantages.  First, every time she gets triggered or gets cycled back into mother mode, she could clamp back down and demand her time and rule the roost again.  You don't want to enable that kind of chaos if you can avoid it.  Second, if she has official majority time then it would be much harder to later improve your parenting with a better official schedule.  Third, don't tell the judge this, you don't want to give any indication that $$$ are a factor, if you gift her a majority schedule, then you'd be required to pay her more even if she left the parenting to you.  You might get that fixed later on, but it would take time and a lot of legal expense.

For that reason, try to get the best schedule you can from the very beginning, of course, without unnecessarily triggering your spouse into an Entitled Retaliatory phase.

Thanks. The way my lawyer set it up, it is 50/50, with 49.999% for each of us for the alternate child, so we can both claim 1 (to get HoH). It seems equitable.

I really think once I do this, she will try to recycle me. I guess I need to prepare for that. I can see her desire to, having found what she is writing in her journal. She is very confused, wants to come to me to beg my forgiveness, is aware of it being "need" based, rather than "love" based. But all in all, I just read between the lines selfish concern for her, and less selfish concern for the kids. Not of me, per se. Once I review the documents, digest them and talk to her, things should get interesting... .

My gut is that I should go for majority time, due to my stability, but I think that later it may just come to that naturally, or she might offer it. I don't know. I heard what you said about clamping down on my sense of fairness, though, and think about what is best for the kids. They still need their mother, and stability though.

[david]

Figure out what you think is best and go with that. Not being "fair" but what is best for the kids. If she has the kids for 3 days and she F bombs them throughout you will have a day of transition time to help calm them down.

Also, if you have the time now, think about as they get older and what will be best for them then. Of course, this will change.

Document, document,document. I seen a youtube video of a guy that recorded his wife's rages on his laptop. He was using his laptop and she would satorm into the room and rage. He had several. You probably can't use that in court but if you are going to a custody evaluation that may come in handy. I was imprisoned because of false allegations. Since that time I carry a video and audio recorder at all times. I can't use it in court but the police will not arrest me if they view it and no charges will be filed.

My ex had our first son as the golden child and devalued our youngest all the time and still does. When he was 3 and 4 all I could do was give him more of my attention and time. I didn't think it was helping but he started coming to me more and more when something was happening. Ex left in 2007 and she still treated them the same. It helped that we were separated. When our oldest turned around 10 he started to notice things were not quite right with mom. He then became the trouble child for mom. She still treated our S5 like he was stupid. She insisted he had a learning disabilty and that took several years to resolve. Last year he was placed in the accelerated program and got straight A's. He is now 10 and I some of the same things that S15 was doing at that age in him. I think as the children develop they see things more clearly. That is a postive thing for all involved.

Stay focused on what is best for the kids. Read Divorce Poison by Bill Eddy. That helped me a lot.

[ForeverDad]

They still need their mother, and stability though.

Stability comes first.  Also, step back and see objectively that your statement above could be flipped and be written as:

"They still need their father, and stability though."

Don't sell yourself short.

However you don't want to be perceived as the uncooperative or problem parent, there is only so much you can do in family court.  There's a lot of resistance to going outside the normal way things are handled.  That's where strategy and forward-looking goals come in.  Lay the groundwork now in case you have opportunities to improve your parenting in the future.

Someone will have to be assigned as the Residential Parent before they enter school.  Are you going to each take one as you did with the 50.001% majority time?  Or is there a way you can be RP for both?  Supposedly it's not a big thing, that's what both my lawyer and her lawyer insisted but in my case it provided a way for my ex to show her disordered and entitled thinking in after-school pickups and it got put in writing for the professionals to see.  I think my being RP gave me a slight edge when I later sought custody.  Fathers need as much of an edge as possible.

[Turkish]

They still need their mother, and stability though.

Stability comes first.  Also, step back and see objectively that your statement above could be flipped and be written as:

"They still need their father, and stability though."

Don't sell yourself short.

However you don't want to be perceived as the uncooperative or problem parent, there is only so much you can do in family court.  There's a lot of resistance to going outside the normal way things are handled.  That's where strategy and forward-looking goals come in.  Lay the groundwork now in case you have opportunities to improve your parenting in the future.

Someone will have to be assigned as the Residential Parent before they enter school.  Are you going to each take one as you did with the 50.001% majority time?  Or is there a way you can be RP for both?  Supposedly it's not a big thing, that's what both my lawyer and her lawyer insisted but in my case it provided a way for my ex to show her disordered and entitled thinking in after-school pickups and it got put in writing for the professionals to see.  I think my being RP gave me a slight edge when I later sought custody.  Fathers need as much of an edge as possible.

For now, as we always did, we have a good relationship co-parenting. For now. Her family will put pressure on her if they see her acting weird. They stand behind the kids first, me second, and her... .not so much.

I will see how things go when I get what the lawyer is putting together, digest it, and then show it to her. It is quite a bit more than what we verbally agreed to. I will probably be posting here a lot more when she leaves and we "finalize" things. She does feel bad about things... .as much as a higher functioning BPD can. But with winter coming on, coinciding with her moving out and the big change, I anticipate a huge depressive episode. I could be wrong, but it's a pattern.

Thanks for what you said above in bold. I needed that. I never had a father or father figures (except for one kind of one in my teens, but he wasn't in a relationship with my mother), and I think it was better. Better to not have something, then to see a toxic relationship modeled for me, as did my pwBPDex... .as she still does to this day with her parents.

I described a few things to the lawyer, and she said, "so her father has BPD." Yes, thinking about everything she's told me, probably so. And I am pretty sure my ex's older brother has it to, manifesting it more obviously in some ways (the tempers, the obvious love addiction he still posts all over FB... .a guy in his mid 30s... .the pattern of unstable relationships). Her slightly younger sister exhibits a few tendencies, but seems much more self-aware, and she has negatively commented about her older sister's rages. What a family! The younger siblings seem much more stable. If there is a genetic component, I fear for my son, but I won't worry about that for now. he could just be a three year old :^)

Thanks for everything, I can't say it enough. I almost broke down reading what you wrote, that which I bolded.

[Turkish]

Figure out what you think is best and go with that. Not being "fair" but what is best for the kids. If she has the kids for 3 days and she F bombs them throughout you will have a day of transition time to help calm them down.

Stay focused on what is best for the kids. Read Divorce Poison by Bill Eddy. That helped me a lot.

You are right about the F bombs. So far only our son (due to her thing against men, and also his periodic, but predictable tantrums... .our D1 is very stable and understated in her tantrums. Pretty easy in comparison, thinking back to when S3 was the same age).

I think that may have been why she threw out there two weeks ago my original 7/7 proposal. She feels she needs that time to get stable (yeah, right). What I think, some others close, and my T... .is that I will just end up with them more. That may wax and wane, depending upon if she is in a relationship, or gone into "hermit" mode (she told me a long time ago... .and this in retrospect fits the BPD profile). She still respects me as a great and stable father... .and the past two months I have literally thrown myself even more into spending time and taking care of them, even when she is physically home. I was already doing a little more than 50/50 for the previous year.

[ForeverDad]

For the separation, divorce, allegations, custody issues, legal traps, chaos, etc... .

Bill Eddy & Randi Kreger:  Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder

For the validation skills, insight, alienation, etc... .

Richard Warshak:  Divorce Poison

If she's not that possessive a parent, then maybe you can mollify her by carefully sidestepping her triggers as much as possible.  If you can get agreement from her, make her feel like you're rescuing her from the woes of parenting, kids screaming, running around, etc, then do it.  Small price to pay for getting more parenting for the next 15-18 years.  You want that first order to be as good as possible, after that order, subsequent improvements may be few and far between.

[Turkish]

For the separation, divorce, allegations, custody issues, legal traps, chaos, etc... .

Bill Eddy & Randi Kreger:  Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder

For the validation skills, insight, alienation, etc... .

Richard Warshak:  Divorce Poison

If she's not that possessive a parent, then maybe you can mollify her by carefully sidestepping her triggers as much as possible.  If you can get agreement from her, make her feel like you're rescuing her from the woes of parenting, kids screaming, running around, etc, then do it.  Small price to pay for getting more parenting for the next 15-18 years.  You want that first order to be as good as possible, after that order, subsequent improvements may be few and far between.

Thanks. I have a lot to read... .

I think she does want rescuing from the burden of parenting so much, hence her later offer of 7/7, which now I realize isn't good for kids so young, even if we can get away with seeing them every day or every other day at their grandma's for a half hour to an hour.

My lawyer went by the book for our state, which is a severe impact to me financially (though it is my responsibility). All in all, my pwBPDex respects my stability and my money management (yes, I do have it easy compared to many of you here). There is also the pride issue with her seeing that I would be, by proxy, "taking care of her" which she thinks I might "throw in her face" later. I used to get that all of the time... .co-incident with her entitlement mentality.

I imagine her agreeing to the physical custody terms, and the HoH arrangement, but backing off on the amount of CS... .maybe, because I would basically not be able to do much stuff with the kids (though spending time with them is more important than taking them to museums or on vacations, IMO). If she splits the difference monetarily, my fear is that she could come back in a few years and hit me for tens of thousands of dollars. Like I said, she is somewhat high functioning, doesn't hate me (and I keep it that way, which is why I pretty much do NC/NT (touching) even while she's here, insofar as non-kid conversations), and does respect me as a father. She's never badmouthed me to anyone in the latter regard, and affirms it even on FB... .in between her teenage postings hinting that I've "failed" somehow with regard to her. She knows something's wrong with her in addition to the depression. I still see her doing web searches trying to find out. I am biting my lip from offering hints. I don't know... .I guess I will have to discuss it with my lawyer once I present the papers to the ex.

[catnap]

She's never badmouthed me to anyone in the latter regard, and affirms it even on FB... .in between her teenage postings hinting that I've "failed" somehow with regard to her.

If you haven't made copies of these pages, do so.  You may never need them, but if she decides suddenly that you are a bad father. . .

[Turkish]

She's never badmouthed me to anyone in the latter regard, and affirms it even on FB... .in between her teenage postings hinting that I've "failed" somehow with regard to her.

If you haven't made copies of these pages, do so.  You may never need them, but if she decides suddenly that you are a bad father. . .

That is good. I will take screenshots when I can. I am journaling everything (by hand... .harder to prove that I went and typed it up at the last minute). Even the lawyer said it was good and to keep doing it.

If we ever went to court, and I know it would be a mess, I would have a legion of people line up behind me as character witnesses. Many who have been friends of mine for decades (which demonstrates MY stability in relationships), some of whom have witnessed her instability. I would also have my T, to which she stopped going (which he said shows character on my part, and lack of it on hers).

She would basically have... .no one. I don't know if it works like that though. That's why I play nice, try to enforce the NC/NT rule even with her in my house (except when it comes to co-parenting). I swallow my pain and let it out elsewhere. I can self-medicate, especially with the outpouring of support I have. She cannot. But we all know the BPD cycle. Things will become more apparent after she leaves, if only to the few who are close to her. And I can't wait until she starts posting stupid things on FB... .she just can't help herself. Most of them can't.