Does your BPDchild hoard their 'collections'? Live in uncontrolled clutter?

[qcarolr]

Another post mentioned concerns with the disorganization and volume of stuff. This often creates an area of conflict in our homes, especially if as parents we desire neatness as a value in our home. My BPDDD27 has increased in this type of behavior in her twenties, and has been supported in this by her friends - many of them homeless searching dumpsters for items they can sell. Clothing is very common for many of them when they have a place to stay.

I searched for current research, and found that the results show a similar pattern in behaviors and brain studies to BPD neurological findings in the newer BPD resources (Such as "Overcoming BPD", Valerie Porr). If you are interested here are links to a couple of these articles.

www.ocfoundation.org/hoarding/causes.aspx

www.compulsive-hoarding.org/Research.html

Here are a couple of excerpts that fit in my family from Compusive-hoarding.org

A moment of release

Listening to a hoarder describing an acquisition: something they’ve bought or found is illuminating. Their accounts sound very like self harmers describing the moment of harm and the small moment of release it brings. The self-harming literature lists many of the same psychological disturbances as accompany hoarding.  The hoarder will talk about that moment of release, that moment that they feel better.  They may know that bringing more things into their home is not going to help but they still do it.

When we work with clutter clients, often the first thing they do is to stop comfort buying.

This really fits with my Dd27 and the accumulation of clothing, nail polishes, jars & bottles -- pretty things. Little by little it piles up. There seems to be an emotional connection as well.

Genetic connection?

Some research is now focused on genetic connections in hoarders. Hoarding can run in families. However, we do see another result of having a hoarding parent(s); offspring who are not actually hoarders but because they have never had a model for living in an organised uncluttered home, don’t know how to do it. They don’t know how to sort or weed out unwanted items. If there have been any personal traumas and/or anger, their problems are compounded.

What is both interesting and exciting for us is that these clients move forward very quickly, once they understand how to do it.

This may be a part of my Gd8's issues -- I struggle to find the energy to help her organize her things. Yet, she has so many collections that she lives to sort through daily in her imaginative play... .Then she moves on to the next 'set' and leaves the previous little pile behind. She loves all her things - pretty stones, marbles, stuffies, animal figurines, soft blankets, bags of hardware from dh's garage (little things from his collections of hardware screws, springs, nuts, bolts), wires ties and plastic bread ties. She is always filling bowls with water and these little things and then getting her animal figurines into the action. Or her little angry bird squishies.  It is fun to watch her -- then a disaster to get her to clean up as she moves on to the next thing. She has ADHD dx and lots of anxiety from the traumatic chaos of her mom in our home. We will see how this may change with DD out of our home, and my depression easing. Time to make a big pile and sort things out again into the drawers, boxes, bins.

qcr

qcr

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[froggy]

My husband hoards books and music

[crazedncrazymom]

I'm not sure about hoarding but the other day everything my daughter owns was on the floor.  It was bad! 

-crazed

[Thursday]

qcarolr,

I've noticed that my non dh and my BPDSD have a hard time letting go of things. DH will do so but it is a struggle for him. SD22 will either hold onto things OR purge by throwing it all away and in the midst of doing so she lets go of what she paid to acquire these things, mostly clothes that are discarded instead of deciding if they should go to Goodwill, be washed or thrown away. Doing laundry is very daunting for her, the sorting, the follow through of washer to dryer and then, hopefully, into a drawer. It just doesn't happen.

While she lived with us nothing ever made it to a drawer. She had two huge dressers, all of the  drawers empty but so many clothes piled in front of the drawers that it was difficult to open them. Like her Dad, she has a hard time visualizing her things once put away and if left to herself she prefers to keep everything within view.

For your GD, you might want to make some "rules" about taking her things out to play with them. I think it's great that she collects and plays with her collections. Imaginative, creative, energetic. Teaching her how to curate her belongings by caring for them will help her in the future. I would not allow her to get out these things without a plan for what happens when the play is over. Even if all she does is put her little things into a box with a snap on lid, at least they are off the floor and protected. She will appreciate the concept of their protection being important for their longevity.

If she is in danger of collecting beyond a "place for her things" I would show her the available storage in her room and her collections will need to fit within this allotted amount of space. Period.d Find little bins that fit the place and don't compromise. She can't keep it all and learning this while young will only help her in her life.

Thursday

[BioAdoptMom3]

Our BPD daughter is actually on the opposite end - compulsively organized - I mean to the point where her clothes are organized in her closet not only by type and size, but by color!  When she makes lists of something, after she creates it she has to go back and put it in alphabetical order, things like that.  Prozac has helped with that someone, but it drives us crazy! 

[raytamtay3]

My daughter throws everything on the floor. Her room is a total mess. In order for her to keep her phone, she needs to "pay for it" as in clean up after herself. Let's just say she has been without a phone more often than not.

[qcarolr]

If she is in danger of collecting beyond a "place for her things" I would show her the available storage in her room and her collections will need to fit within this allotted amount of space. Period.d Find little bins that fit the place and don't compromise. She can't keep it all and learning this while young will only help her in her life.

I have done this. Putting some in storage and she has to trade something inside for something in garage box. She is so impulsive and distractible I cannot keep up with her shifts in play. Often every 15 minutes. This year was particularly messy since I have struggled with deeper depression. I am starting to have more energy and focus myself to teach these lessons with her.

The other area is her papers - from school and from home. Need to get a weekly habit of putting all but 1-2 papers into recycle, and the keepers into a 'keepsake' box. Again, need my energy and time to teach this.

qcr

[qcarolr]

My daughter throws everything on the floor. Her room is a total mess. In order for her to keep her phone, she needs to "pay for it" as in clean up after herself. Let's just say she has been without a phone more often than not.

For my DD, I put shelves in her closet and room with clear bins instead of drawers. She has to see what is there to know it exists. This was true even as a very young child.  As an adult I have learned to let go of this, as long as she keeps her clutter in her room. She did learn to at least put her dirty dishes in the kitchen - she did not like bugs in her room. When she had a very organized friend that was there often, she did enjoy having this help to make things nice. There have only been a couple of these over the years.

So I had to decide if this was a battle worth fighting. Was this 100% meeting my needs for order? How can I meet this need without needing to control others in the family? I haven't totally figured this out yet.

qcr

[jellibeans]

I don't know if this kind of behavior is BPD... .my daughter has dyslexic tendancies... .she is extremely unorganized but tries very hard. I do think her ADHD also contributes to this type of messiness.

I have come to accept it and I try and go in and clean her room every other week because I know she loves coming home to a clean room. If I know she has had a rough week I try to do it on Friday so she can come home and unwind.

I have tried all kinds of different storage solutions but none of them have worked. I really should have her reduce the amount of clothes she has but her clothes translate directly to her self worth unfortunately. The more clothes she has the better she feels about herself. Does your gd collect things to help her self worth?

[MammaMia]

Interesting.

My dBPDs39 also has OCD.  Everything has a place and cannot be moved an inch, or he will notice, but he never keeps anything he does not consider absolutely necessary and refuses to buy anything new for himself.

My daughter 41 and granddaughter 16 are the exact opposite.  They cannot part with anything ... .ever.  Not even junk mail.  They are compulsive spenders

who constantly "lose things" because they can't remember what they did with them.  So they just replace them, adding to the clutter.  Everything ends up on the floor or stuck in a drawer somewhere.  Drives my son-in-law crazy. 

I guess I am more like my son.  I hate clutter and like things clean, although I do not think I am pathological about it.  I am very organized and a whiz at prioritizing.  Being organized was a huge part of my career.

Strange, isn't it?

[Verbena]

My DD28 was never a hoarder,but she has decorated her new home to the point that it's bordering on excessive and will be overwhelming  if she keeps adding to it. She has a great eye for decorating and it's really beautiful, but there's just so much stuff!  I'm glad she is taking pride in her home, though. 

She lived with us until she was 26 and was always very, very messy and disorganized--clothes everywhere, nearly full cans of Dr. Pepper all over, and clothes tags and other trash lying around all over the place.  She never shut a drawer or a cabinet once she opened it, never put things back once she used them. Her bathroom looked like a tornado had gone through it, and she claimed she never had time to clean up after herself because she was running late, which was almost always true.  She had time to text non-stop while she was getting ready, though. 

She let her laundry pile up to the point that it would have taken two solid days of almost non-stop work to get it all done.  Sometime she would leave wet clothes in the washing machine for two days.  If I wanted to wash something, I would take her stuff out and put it on the folding table because I didn't dare dry anything without permission and risk her yelling at me.  But I usually got yelled at anyway for leaving her clothes in a damp pile.  The strange thing was she bragged often about what good care she took of her clothes and how I was terrible at doing laundry.  Uh, that would be the opposite. 

My daughter's laundry is still out of control and she lets her whole house get really bad before she cleans up (her husband does the majority of cleaning), but she will pick up and clean when she has to. 

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[crumblingdad]

Our DD16 has a true problem with disorganization and is always a cluttered mess.  I wouldn't classify as hoarding but she certainly shows tendencies.  She typically has entirely more clothes then she needs and gets very anxious if she doesn't have access to all of them.  When we placed her in the RTC she's in one of the greatest meltdowns was the realization she had at least two full baskets of clothes and belongings that we didn't bring initially.  We just brought the remaining items but she was very upset for a week that she didn't have them despite fact she has enough there already. 

[kitkat12]

I never put living in total chaos and BPD together but I guess that's what this support group is for. Our daughters room and bathroom is beyond messy. I asked her to finally strip the sheets and wash them which she did and never put clean sheets back on the bed or pillow. At the age of 21 I would think that she would feel uncomfortable living like that but perhaps it's just the opposite. Would love to know if anyone else has seen this in their BPD loved one... .My daughter has to have fake nails , hair extensions , changes hair color often etc. The nails have been a thing for some time now and when I ask about that she says she needs them. I think they are some form of comfort or something? The reason it bugs me is that they are long and usually wild colors and there is the fact that she can't afford them so they get really long and scary so I give her the money to get them trimmed. I know this sounds weird but it seems to be a part of the "new" her. She also has a thing for tattoos ... .that's a whole other story.It is as if all these things are tics which she can't control but rather the need for them controls her and if she doesn't have them it makes her anxious. This is one strange disorder. It is like something kidnapped her and left in her place someone I don't recognize.

[MammaMia]

kitkat

I suspect your dd21 is getting tattoos and outrageous false nails because she feels entitled to them AND she knows you do not approve.  PwBPD have issues with authority, and defiance is their inner child throwing a tantrum.  Remember, physically they may be adults, but mentally they are not.

This mental immaturity may also account for their filthy, garbage-filled rooms and hoarding tendencies to some degree, although, it is clear their thought processes are also very disorganized.

They just do not care what others think.  Period.

[js friend]

Yes to both!

When dd19 lived here at home I would have to keep her bedroom door closed because it was such a mess.

The only time she would ever clean up after her self or her room was when she was trying to get back into my good books. Now she has a place of her own it is still often a mess but at least now she will separate the clothes into clean and dirty.

her favourite pastime these days seems to be online shopping. Im sure she orders somthing every day for herself or gd! She is overboard with it till now she has a mountain of things... .toys, shoes,clothes bags,toiletries... .yet complains that she has nowhere to store them all. some of them have never been worn or used only once. 

[GaGrl]

I think object constancy is an issue with the hoarding (and resulting messiness, for some PDs).  When my DH and I married, he was amazed at my closet -- I have an appropriate number of clothing items for someone needing business clothing, casual clothing, etc.  His ex would never let go of anything, and they had an entire storage building on their property to hold items she needed to check on frequently.  That was pretty much alleviated when she finally moved out, because she had to take it all with her (her need to have it, not DH making her take it).

With object constancy, it's a matter of "if I can't see it, it doesn't exist."

Same with photographs... .she was obsessive with photographs.  In fact, it was funny/sad... .even though she and DH had been separated for 14 years when I started seeing him, I was the first serous relationship he had after the marriage failed, plus DH and I had dated/known each other as teens before he met her.  In any case, she dug out a photo of DH and her taken in the early days of their relationship -- probably their engagement photo, and put it out in HIS living room so I would see it (yes, she came and went because their daughter and grandaughter were living with DH).  It was as if the photo made their relationship "real" again.

[qcarolr]

I think this is a complex combination of things for my DD27. 

She does enjoy her space, even as a young child, when i sorted it all out on open shelves in boxes. it just never lasted. Dd and gd both can be standing next to a trash can, and drop it on the floor. Standing next to the clothes hamper, and drop it on the floor or kick it across the room.

Yet today, DD had picked up her motel room, made the bed, organized her dirty clothes to get laundered... .Her friend had left yesterday after 3 weeks - she was 'smothering him'. My guess is he needed drugs and they are not allowed in her presence. I at least respect that. He is a slob too, as are most of her homeless friends. (except the OCD one!)  BPD is a disorder of extemes in many ways.

Gd8 is the same way. Feels more at ease when it is organized, yet she knows where everthing is in the chaos. She was just rooting around in a box of stuff in my office to find her 4th sparkly horse figurine. I had no idea it was buried in there. THey both complain when I move things around organizing them - then they can't find them. They are both very visual. Gd closes her eyes to do her spelling words out loud. She gets it better this way than writing them.

I believe it has a lot to do with how their brain areas work together. How different kinds of info/memories get connected to other areas and how the recall works, or doesn't work.

Truly, Dd and gd both can't be organized. It is not intentional, attention getting, manipulative. At least in my case. I think the object constancy fits in the neuro point of view as well.

The neuroscience supports so many or the phsycological theories.

qcr

[js friend]

I think this is a complex combination of things for my DD27. 

Dd and gd both can be standing next to a trash can, and drop it on the floor. Standing next to the clothes hamper, and drop it on the floor or kick it across the room.



THey both complain when I move things around organizing them - then they can't find them.

Oh qcarol I have had the same kinds of things too when dd lived here which I can now i can laugh about it but at the time this kind of stuff would drive me crazy.

For example dd used to have a waste paper bin in her room that she would never ever empty... .and it would spill over with used sanitary stuff, half eaten food,  nail polish with the lids off... .you name it. Eventually it became such a health hazard and bone of contention that I got rid of it hoping that she would bring her stuff downstairs to dispose of but instead she took to hiding them under her bed or in the back of her wardrobe.

Some of it I believe with my dd is emotional immaturity and stubborness to just take on board what anyone says, and she has a good memory to annoy others when she wants to.

But definitley object consistancy comes into too with my dd. dd will hoard till reciepts for cinema trips and days out that she has enjoyed. And she is always taking photos or recording videos on her phone which she will watch over and over again.

Also when we had t a few years back t asked dd what she was good at and dd couldnt come up with anything. so t asked dd what she thought he friends liked about her. still dd couldnt come up with anything. so t asked me what i liked about dd and i came up with the things I like about her. she is funny, a good listener, she is very witty and has a good sense of humor (when in a good mood ) etc... .and dd has treasured that list... .

... .4 years later she still walks around with it.

yes this BPD is a very complex disorder.

[javieira]

Our BPD D does have a cluttered room, but what drives me even more crazy is that she squirells things away. I am constantly opening drawers in the living room, study, and office and finding her things in them because she will not take them time to put them away. We think she has taken care of a pile of clutter, only to find it resurface in an odd location.

Also, she is obsessed with ordering free samples of ANYTHING she can get her hands on; adult diapers, honey, holy water, protein powder, spray paint, bandaides - she has received all of these and SO much more. She will not use most these products and she will NOT get rid of them.

[almostvegan]

My 17 yo d also is obsessed with free samples! She also goes through fazes where she'll collect and obsess about one thing or another.  Now it's artisan soaps. Used to be marbles bookmarks and beads. Or erasers. Or minute timers.  It can't be that she sees one thing and wants it. She NEEDS many.

[qcarolr]

Hmmmm. Wondering if the stuff fills an empty place, then that good feeling is attached to the object so fear of loss/pain to let it go?

My D has let go of some things at times. More regulated moments. Or an impulsive moment around Christmas with her tubs of stuffed animals -- 65 to be exact. And she had passed a lot on to gd already.

qcr

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[psychik]

My Undiagnosed mother hoards all of our stuff from our childhood.  I have one pic of me when I was a child and probably won't be getting anymore.  I haven't been to her "House of Pain" in years, but I hear she has one pic of each of her children up in the house and the rest all hoarded away. When we were all young, we lived in filth.  If we didn't clean - it wasn't cleaned.  Today she has swung the other way and lives very OCD. 

When my daughter was young, I asked to store baby clothes, and other things in her attic while I lived in an apartment.  Wrong move.  She claimed them as her own and refused to give them back.  A couple of years ago, I asked my daughter to please talk her GM into giving them back to us, so we could go thru them and have a mother daughter moment together. 

Wrong move again.  I'm a slow learner.  My Daughter did get some of them back for me for my Bday present, but made sure to tell me her and her GM had already gone thru them together. 

It has helped me reading this thread, just another insight into what and why PD's do what they do.


 

[bluebell7]

Can I say WOW?  This thread helped me!

Absolutely YES.  Hoarding, collecting, buying things she doesn't need and not saving money to move out, but always telling me that she hates living here!  She used to leave so much stuff in the kitchen that I started a pile in the corner and it was half way up the wall. So I started a second pile on the back deck.  Snow, rain, it just sat there. Bedroom floor is covered with nearly a foot of junk.  Sets up her dresser and closet then doesn't use them.  The mess was so bad we didn't know she had brought home... .bed bugs... .from community college! It was HORRIBLE.  Now it's been 18 months and she still hasn't cleaned up the stuff we had to remove when the exterminator came.

And defiantly refusing to clean... .or help around the house.  Then I go to one of her therapy sessions and the therapist asks me if my desire for a super clean house could be over the top... .Wow.  The week before, I was so disgusted that I took photos of all of the messes.  Handy.  Pulled out my phone and showed them... .Therapist saw how all of the rooms really look and changed the subject!  Seems like my daughter felt victimized and the therapist couldn't possibly know what was really going on.  I like her.

Very gradually, some things are getting better.

[hopeangel]

My dd is the 'organised' kind - she will only have things upside down during a 're-organisation' when furniture is changed around. This happens frequently.

She does the same with photos she will constantly reorganise her albums and change the orderof the pics, cut round them, re- mount them etc.

She also contantly reorganises her pics on facebook, especially when she falls out with someone.

When she's at college she will rewrite pages of work if it doesn't appear 'neat enough'!

She redecorates her flat very frequently (guess who's been buying the paint and wallpaper :'()

[bluebell7]

I'm getting through "Stop Walking on Eggshells", skimmed it in the past, but need to read it cover to cover.  It made me aware that, for my daughter- these cluttered belongings represent her attempt to find happiness and good memories through things she though would make her happy.  That may be why she can't let them go.  But she is also stuck because they didn't make her happy and no one understands her feelings.  And it's easier for her to leave them where they lie, then to deal with the feelings she attached to them. 

Sad.

Thinking this over and reading other's experiences helped me to see this differently and I'll be trying a new approach when I talk to her about this again. 

Thanks so much for this thread.

[co.jo]

This brought back such memories- through my daughter's teens her room was such chaos- I remember so well trying to explain that this was not a normal teen mess to a counselor, and that I wasn't a "neat freak" as my daughter implied. We didn't have cell phones with cameras back in the day.

Now she has let go of most of her stuff, since moving tends to make you look at what is really necessary, and is sort of normal messy in her apartment. So things could change!