If 1 trip wasn't bad enough...

[Cipher13]

Back from business trip. It was horrible... .well the actual work part went fine. But when uBPDw comes along becasue she "has" too. It was all down hill. Just the first night she wanted to take the rental car and leave me stranded. I hid the keys. Besides the company paid for the rental not me. Day 2 she wanted me to drop her half way which I was ready to do but no one would pick her up. I wasn't about to drive 14 hours to takek here home and come back.

Now she wants me to put in for an open position at my firm that is a nice level up for me that requires soem travel from time to time. She wants to go if I get it. I kind of doen't want to apply for 2 reasons. #1 I liek what I do know. (She hates it). #2 I don't want to travel with her eall the time. That means she would quit her job.  It would not be a lot of traveling anyway. 

She wants over the top affection and admits that is what will help her trust me more. I know that wil be temporary at best and make things worse but I don't know how yet to address this. She knows I have changed and hates it. She is asking where and why I have changed. Whithout saying "because I think you have BPD and I am reading all I can and this is what they say to do and for me it works"  What else can I say at this point? Accusing her of any wrong doing will not be accepted by her.

[Waddams]

I'm sorry that the work trip was so stressful.  I know it's frustrating when the BPD just keeps on badgering and attacking non-stop.  They are just like kids, hoping to get us to ultimately throw up our hands and say "Okay!" just to get them to shut up and stop.  Unfortunately, that just encourages them to do it more to get their way.

If you like your position, stay in it.  If she continues to badger you, you have the right to stop talking about it.  She can continue to talk/scream/cry/etc.  You don't have to respond.

With BPD, the more you give, the more they want.  It will never stop escalating unless you stop it.  At some point you have to step out of the cycle in order to stop it.

I forget, have to ever approached her about attending couples counseling with you?

[allibaba]

If you like your position, stay in it.  If she continues to badger you, you have the right to stop talking about it.  She can continue to talk/scream/cry/etc.  You don't have to respond.

With BPD, the more you give, the more they want.  It will never stop escalating unless you stop it.  At some point you have to step out of the cycle in order to stop it.

All I have to say is YUP.

[Surnia]

Hi Cipher

A good job for you, the one you like and a job for her. As you are tight with money... .

And like others said, she is realizing her chance to gain more control over you regarding work. Don't give in. She will never resolve her trust/paranoia issues through this.

[Cipher13]

I have realized that my job is the last thing she does not have control over. When she found out we had gotten a new badge type security system which is becaoming very common, she said now you work in a prison. I said no I can come and go when I want. If I was in a prison I'd be stuck inside. Without a badge people are stuck outside.

My schedule changed a little to. I was coming in early and gettign home 2 to 2 1/2 hours before her. Now its just an hour and she doesn't care for that either. Didn't like me home alone for 2 hours and now my schedule is different so Imust be having an affair. Left 15 mins early today. I get a text. "So you going in early to screw someone".  I just ignored it. But its in my head now. I think I know what might make her completely go off the deep end and it would actually be something postive for me. If I told her I wanted to see my family for Christmas. With or without her. She totally doesn't like her family (aside form her parents which I am now seeing also enable her from time to time).  So I am thinking about that. Also I need to find a new T that is closer to home the old one is 1 1/2 drive and doesn't fit our schedule.   She has gone to T with me. In the past she talks I respond as needed. Last time she was irate and told the T I made her go.  Then had to admit she knew we were scheduled to go and I had trned the car around a couple times upon her request.

[allibaba]

Cipher13

Someone gave me the advice the other day "Hold onto YOUR reality."

You have control over your job.  You like your job.  Your job is your sanity and your break from the crazy BPD world that you live in.  Protect it.

You have come so far!   

[Waddams]

My schedule changed a little to. I was coming in early and gettign home 2 to 2 1/2 hours before her. Now its just an hour and she doesn't care for that either. Didn't like me home alone for 2 hours and now my schedule is different so Imust be having an affair. Left 15 mins early today. I get a text. "So you going in early to screw someone".  I just ignored it.

That is so frustrating to deal with on a constant basis.  I know we say ignore it, it will stop when they stop getting reactions, but at the same time it still has an impact on us no matter how we deal with it.  And even the best response doesn't fix the issue.  We need the BPD to grow past this behavior, and sometimes they just don't.  In short, it's a ___ sandwich.  Doesn't matter how you take a bit out of it, it's still ___.

What are your current boundaries for dealing with this?  Obviously she's crossing boundaries of decent behavior towards her spouse.  Is it possible it's time for consequences?  What is some kind of non-retaliatory consequence you could enact?  Not easy to answer, I know.

I think I know what might make her completely go off the deep end and it would actually be something postive for me. If I told her I wanted to see my family for Christmas. With or without her.

Honestly, I think some time w/ your family and off the crazy train would be good for you.  If she thinks your family is so awful, tell her not to go.  She can visit her family on her own as well. 

I think one consequence you can enact for her when she crosses boundaries of decent treatment and behavior towards her spouse is to remove yourself from where she can continue to do it.  She'll rage via phone/text after, but you can ignore that.  If you leave when she does her thing, and if you say to her through your actions "When you treat me like this, I will leave so you can't do it anymore" you are saying you value your own health and are willing to stand up for it.  If you tell her "I'm going to visit family on my own because I don't deserve to be treated as you treat me, I deserve better and I deserve to be able to protect myself from how you are treating me", yeah she's going to rage and rant.  It's what she does.  But if it happens enough that when she mistreats you she ends up alone, she will be faced with the decision that if she wants to continue in the relationship, she has to change her behavior.  There won't be another choice for her.  I can't say she will, she might leave the relationship instead.  But either way, you put an end to her abusing you.

She has gone to T with me. In the past she talks I respond as needed. Last time she was irate and told the T I made her go.  Then had to admit she knew we were scheduled to go and I had trned the car around a couple times upon her request.

And the constant back and forth is part of her game.  It would be okay to turn the car around, drop her off, and when she changes her mind again, say "no, i'm done with the back and forth".  If she refuses to get out, go home, lock up in a room on your own and call in for the appointment via phone.  It's okay to set the boundary that you won't go along with the back and forth. 

It's also okay to set the boundary that she knew she was lying and manipulating and trying to deceive the T, so she doesn't go next time.  Or you are leaving for a while.  Tell her if being w/ you is so awful for her that she has to result to lying to the T and other drama to try to make you look bad, then fine, you won't be around her.

The point being is you don't have to tolerate being treated like this.  You can set boundaries and enact consist responses for when she crosses those boundaries to protect yourself from her abuse.  Self preservation is a responsibility that a lot of us don't take seriously until we are in crisis.  It's okay to start protecting yourself and stepping out of the abuse cycle.  All it takes is for one person to step out of the cycle, and it ends right then as long as you don't step back into it.

[Surnia]

Hi Cipher

I am following your story with a lot of concern. It reminds me in some parts at my own past. 

There is a pattern in it in my opinion- you and your space / your wishes. Your space at work. Being an hour or so in your apartment alone, spending xmas with your family. 

All these things you would like to do. You don't. I would so wish for you, you could make some of these things real.

What could help you doing so?

[Cipher13]

All these things you would like to do. You don't. I would so wish for you, you could make some of these things real.

What could help you doing so?

Honesty I don't knw the answer. I do not have the guts to bring it up to her. I so would love to spend time with my family.

[Surnia]

Here a little reminder from yourself... .

[Waddams]

Honesty I don't knw the answer. I do not have the guts to bring it up to her. I so would love to spend time with my family.

This is from being FOG'd.  You are expressing fear.  She is creating it with her explosive anger.  She will continue to do it as long as it works.  She won't stop unless it stops working.  JMHO, but if you're going to break out of this, you're going to have to face her anger, or my simply you're going to have to face your own fears and do what you need to while you are scared to death. 

Maybe write it out what you will say first?  Have it in your head, and when she goes off the deep end, have a plan to exit the encounter quickly.  Keys/phone/wallet in pocket so she can't take them.  There's no good reason that you can't see your family.

[allibaba]

Cipher - two things that really helped me are

1. thinking about how I want my life to be in the future

2. asking myself what I am afraid of.

Not that I am the model of how to handle this, but I've been through the RINGER fighting for the life that I want this year.  My husband has done some very scary and very threatening things along the path.  I have CHOSEN to stay but I have also CHOSEN not to be a victim of my own fear any more.

Thanks Surnia for the reminder from Cipher.  

Just remember -- Things don't change overnight.  It is very uncomfortable.  But you do deserve the life that you want.  You are not a victim.  In the process your wife may also get the opportunity to have a better life... .but that's her choice.

[Cipher13]

Thanks Surina. Talk about a good snap out of it recall. I needed that. I agree with Waddams I am being FOG'd. I had one of the worse nights last Sunday I have ever had. Never had an arguement gone that long. I was trapped in a Hotel room to boot.

[allibaba]

Thanks Surina. Talk about a good snap out of it recall. I needed that. I agree with Waddams I am being FOG'd. I had one of the worse nights last Sunday I have ever had. Never had an arguement gone that long. I was trapped in a Hotel room to boot.

Cipher, I think that this is probably a really good reason not to allow her to come on future work trips. 

Why were you trapped in the argument?  Is there something that you could have done to get away?

I know in that case you were travelling but did you manage to go make a visit to the local police station to understand the local laws in your area and get advice on how to deal with it if your wife tries to physically trap you in an argument / abusive situation in the future?

[Waddams]

I had one of the worse nights last Sunday I have ever had. Never had an arguement gone that long. I was trapped in a Hotel room to boot.

Slight level of bluntness here.  :)on't mean to offend.  BUT... .were you really trapped?  Sometimes, in extreme situations, maybe leaving even with her ranting at you, and following you to the front desk of the hotel, is what you need to do?  

Abuse only sustains itself when it is allowed to stay secret.  When you expose it, the abuser cannot continue it.  They know it's wrong, they know how they will be judged for it.  They will harbor even greater anger for exposing them, at least at first, but it will change the equation and force them to stop.  Leave, let her follow you, and let her do her thing in public.  :)on't react.  :)on't retaliate. Just get public.  So what if other people stare, see, etc.  When you are public, there are witnesses.  Let them see her rage.  Heck, let them see it if she hits you.  :)on't respond, don't retaliate.  It's hard in the heat of the moment, but you are better off in the big picture by being able to say "She did X, Y, and Z.  I did nothing."  Witnesses will be your protection.  

I used to think "how embaressing that would be?" then learned that it wasn't my embaressment.  My BPD would calm down later, and realize what an utter fool she made of herself.  She also realized I wouldn't try to hide her misbehavior to protect her anymore.  Her initial reaction was to try to find new ways to prevent me from being able to get public, but when she realized I was literally willing to walk out into public in my boxers and nothing else (because I did it!) while she was on one of her badgering, verbal assaults, then she actually started to reign herself in.  It was only because she realized that tactic wouldn't work anymore, and she switched tactics at that point, but it at least solved that one particular problem.

[Cipher13]

Cipher, I think that this is probably a really good reason not to allow her to come on future work trips.  

Why were you trapped in the argument?  Is there something that you could have done to get away?

I know in that case you were travelling but did you manage to go make a visit to the local police station to understand the local laws in your area and get advice on how to deal with it if your wife tries to physically trap you in an argument / abusive situation in the future?

Uts the perfect reason not to ever. I didn't want to in the first place. I was trapped becasue it was 10 pm in a large hotel in another country that lasted until 4 or 5 am. I could not stop the circulating arguement. I was too exhausted. I just don't know how to difuse the arguments when I can not get away. I haven't been successful at being able to leave. Which brings me to the police thing. No I have not been able to speak with them. I have not had the time to get away to do so. No free time when she is not around. My schedule change at work has limited that as well.

[allibaba]

Uts the perfect reason not to ever. I didn't want to in the first place. I was trapped becasue it was 10 pm in a large hotel in another country that lasted until 4 or 5 am. I could not stop the circulating arguement. I was too exhausted. I just don't know how to difuse the arguments when I can not get away.

Ok.  So you lived and you learned and next time this won't be up for negotiation.  Have you looked at the articles on stopping circular arguments.

For me, I have found success just saying "We are not making any progress.  I am not going to continue this discussion right now."

I haven't been successful at being able to leave. Which brings me to the police thing. No I have not been able to speak with them. I have not had the time to get away to do so. No free time when she is not around. My schedule change at work has limited that as well.

I don't know how to say this any other way... .I think you would do yourself a great service by checking in with the police now before there is an issue.  If you continue to stand up to her - there may be a day when she calls the police on you (she's already threatened to) - MAKE the time to educate yourself now.  Even if you have to take a half day off of work to do it.  I am really worried that at some point she is going to barricade you in the house to make you listen to her abuse.  I just want to know if and when that day comes that you are protected. 

[Cipher13]

How do you bring this up to the police? I am not the type of person that like to explain my situation to someone only to find they can't help and I have to explain it all over againto someone else.

[Waddams]

I'd stop by the local precinct office and ask to speak with an officer present about a domestic situation you are experiencing.  While you are talking, do not under any circumstances tell them that you have ever, are, or ever will put your hands on her.  Tell him about your situation, the times you've tried to leave and been blocked, how she has threatened to call and make false accusations against you in response to you're attempts to leave or otherwise get out of the cycle of emotional/verbal abuse.

Ask the cop for advice on how to deal with this in a way that keeps you out of fashionable steel police bracelets.  Ask various scenarios, what to do if she does X and you do Y, etc.  I personally advocate to NEVER, EVER call the police unless she's shooting at you.  Anything else, put up with it until you can extricate yourself and go see the police alone if you need to after.  

Ask if your state is a mandatory arrest state.  That means if they get called to a domestic situation, if they are required by law to make an arrest.  Many states are now.  This would be why you don't call the cops if you are a man.  

Ask them how they identify the primary aggressor in a situation (the primary aggressor is who gets arrested).

Ask them how to not be the primary aggressor.

Ask them for advice in dealing with your situation from a legal/criminal protection standpoint.  Be prepared for the first answer to be "leave right now."  They'll say that because they're perspective is that if you know a situation is dangerous, you stay away from it.  If you aren't there, you can't have a situation escalate.

Ask them if her blocking you leaving is grounds for a TPO that would have her removed from the home?  What kind of documentation you need?  If recording her is legal?   In my area, they don't give it to a man unless he's got marks on him from her (the standard is much lower for women, though).

Ask them if her verbal claim of physical abuse is probable cause for an arrest when there is no other evidence and she has no marks.

Ask them what does constitute probable cause or other conditions that justify an arrest.

You might also consult a lawyer about all this.  Mine does both criminal and domestic work and is very very good.  She's been a real asset to me.

[GaGrl]

Also, ask that the police make a record of the conversation.  You want to have you concern about false allegations on file, so that you can refer to the date, time, name of officer with whom you spoke, topic of the conversation.

[allibaba]

Cipher this is all really good advice.  Remember the reason that you do this is to try to give yourself the knowledge of how you can stand up to her abuse (while protecting yourself).

Go to the police station, explain that you have no intention of making any accusations you are in the middle of a difficult domestic situation and you are trying to get a thorough understanding of the laws in your state and the best ways to handle your wife when she is out of her mind.

Explain that you are actively seeking counselling and that you are trying to save your marriage, but that you want to be safe (both legally and physically in the process), that is particularly challenging because your wife is the aggressor and she has stated to you clearly in the past that she WILL BRING false accusations against you and she uses this as a way to control you.

I'll try to find the ebook where I originally got this advice from... .and send you a copy if I can.

You mentioned in the past that you have a family member that is in law enforcement (maybe your brother) - while it doesn't make sense to go to his station... .if you think it helps BRING HIM WITH YOU or talk to him in advance to get as much information as possible!  Tell him that you want him with you as support (law enforcement are a band of brothers and they 'get eachother'.  His presence might validate your presence without words)... .Tell him that you want to do the primary talking but you want him to jump in if you missed something.  Would this make it easier on you?  Through the process of standing up to my husband's abuse, I spoke to local law enforcement maybe 5 times.  I also leaned heavily (discussions) on a family member in law enforcement (because I didn't have to worry that he'd go press charges if I said the wrong thing).

Remember, you are doing this FOR your wife.  You are not laying a devious plot against her.  

There is a lot of advice here.  It might be helpful if you took notes and wrote yourself a script of what to say.

[Cipher13]

Holy cow. Is this really what this has come to? Never did I think I would need to do this even before I knew what this  was all about. I really appricate all the advice. Its a bit overwhelming to have to go to the police to protect myself from the police for somethign that might happen in the future that I am not provoking or participating in. I completely understand why it needs to be done. Being male and how the law looks at me in domestic cases I get that. Just never thought anything in my life would come to this.

[Dr.Me2]

Allibaba et al,

That is good advice, would like to know more about it.

Going to the police to warn them what could happen in the future is a way of protecting the pwBPD and yourself.

Especially in those cases where verbal abuse has gone too far.

How about email evidence of it?

[allibaba]

Going to the police to warn them what could happen in the future is a way of protecting the pwBPD and yourself.

Especially in those cases where verbal abuse has gone too far.

The police only care about a situation if there is real risk of harm coming to someone.  Good to keep this in context.

However, in my case I was getting 'real verbal threats' and in some cases things turned physical.  I went to the police to understand my rights and also to understand how I could use them to defuse a situation.  The two separate police officers that I spoke to actually thanked me for proactively planning.  They appreciated that I was trying to STOP abuse and not just putting my head in the sand hoping that everyone was going to be OK.  They told me ways that I could have my husband committed if I HAD TO (non-criminal).  Most importantly they told me my responsibilities in a domestic situation.

Cipher's case is currently different in that he is a man and I am a woman.  Cipher's wife has physically blocked him from escaping the house in situations where things were escalating.  Cipher some day she may hit you.  If she does, you cannot retaliate... .you must escape in the safest way possible.

You aren't going to the police to warn them that something MIGHT happen at your house (though you may have the added benefit of relationships with local law enforcement), you are really going to them to get information and to understand the laws, their responsibilities.  In my case, I was able to manage our conflicts at home AWAY from situations that were illegal.  

The premise of all of this is that knowledge is power.  The police are there to protect my safety.  

I have called the police twice in 2012 - once when I could clearly see that my husband was about to get out of control (they came out to defuse things)... .the second time, my husband was trying to remove our son from the house (summer 2013).  He was not in a good place, he packed him a bag, he had their passports, and he was having a psychotic break and I said NO - you will not leave.  He threatened me in a very real way and dragged me across the room by my hair.  When I realized that he was actually going to get violent (not just idol threats)... . I didn't hesitate to call my friends in law enforcement and they were there in 15 minutes.  Their presence probably saved us from something much much worse.

[allibaba]

PS Cipher - you can call the police on the phone too and talk to them anonymously (or on a first name basis) if that FEELS better.  That is what I did.  The officer ended up giving me his cell phone number in case I had more questions... .but he told me in all emergencies call 9-1-1.

[Cipher13]

Cipher some day she may hit you.  If she does, you cannot retaliate... .you must escape in the safest way possible.

If that happens and she has said "I want to hit you right now". She has also gotten what I would call a threathening distance in my face with hers if I were a stranger I migh have pushed away. If she was a strange guy and did that I certainly would have. If she hits me I have already planned it out in my head what to do. During these rages I have been able to remain very calm. I will wait it out until I find a safe way to leave. Then its offically over. At that point next time she hears from me is will be via legal paper.

[GaGrl]

One of the purposes of a conversation with the police is advice on how to handle a situation should it arise.

Another purposes -- proactive -- is to put on record that a spouse has threatened a false accusation of violence.  This cannot be anonymous.

It's a matter of honestly assessing where the relationship is, where it's going, and what type of protection is needed.

[allibaba]

One of the purposes of a conversation with the police is advice on how to handle a situation should it arise.

Another purposes -- proactive -- is to put on record that a spouse has threatened a false accusation of violence.  This cannot be anonymous.

It's a matter of honestly assessing where the relationship is, where it's going, and what type of protection is needed.

Agree completely.  Its a wise move.