Are there some people who have BPD, who do not respond to validation?

[Parents! Get help here!]

Are there some people who have BPD, who do not respond to validation?

[mother in law]

Are there some people who have BPD, who do not respond to validation?

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Surnia]

Hi mother in law

All those tools are not bullet proof. Validation may not work when someone is too emotional, too aroused. Than its the wrong moment.

It has to be genuine. This is important too.

Sometimes it may not work when someone has paranoid traits. This was my personal experience in my marriage.

Does this helps a bit?

[mother in law]

Thank you Surnia, yes it does explain my DiL somewhat who I seem to raving on about at such length... .so many questions so few answers. My son is very good at validation (when I read up about it)-I on the other hand am probably not! However it did not seem to work with her. She would complain about everything from the local school children to the lady in the supermarket and he would write letters for her (English is her second language), complain about him and anything he did and he would agree and say how can I do it better, us (despite getting a lot of help from us)- these are but a few examples and in the end I think it wore him down and he couldn't deal with it. From an outsider looking in it must be so hard to deal with the constant negativity in everything.

[mother in law]

So if validation does not work how do you advise the non BPD to communicate with the BPD in a civilised manner?

[Surnia]

Hi mother in law

I would not totally give up on validation, just try it sometimes when things are calm.

The other thing I found helpful: No JADE, no justifying, arguing, defending or explaining. I made simple statements like: I see this differently. To avoid at any costs a circular argument. Not to justify me when accused by something was a huge challenge for me. 

[lbjnltx]

So if validation does not work how do you advise the non BPD to communicate with the BPD in a civilised manner?

When we decide validation doesn't work that is a clear sign that we are attaching expectations to our attempts to validate.  The goal of validation is to give to another person THE GIFT of our undivided attention so that they MAY know that they have been heard and understood.  What they do with this GIFT is up to them.  A true GIFT is given without expectations of any kind.

If we are resentful, exasperated, frustrated, or disappointed in what happens after we validate that makes it about us and our feelings and desires and that is not a GIFT. 


lbjnltx

[mother in law]

hmm why do I feel I have just been admonished? I am genuinely interested in this topic as we still have minimal contact with our ex DiL. How would you handle the situation where projection had occurred ie after she hit her ex husband she sent him a text saying I hit her father and then I hit her. I was very upset at 1st as I find any violence abhorrent however I ignored it. Did I do the right thing?

I admit in the past I have not handled her extreme racism and complaints of all in sundry well. If you had someone who constantly co mplained of other races ie they are dirty, lazy, rude, how would you respond to these comments?

The latest one was after we asked if we could take our granddaughter to a pre Christmas occasion she said you get to do all the fun things with her. However the last time we asked our ex DiL to come too and paid for the ticket she didn't come as she was raging at the world. Once again we have ignored the niggly comment for the sake of peace but sometimes it is hard. Would you do this too? I am so confused by this!

[Skip]

I admit in the past I have not handled her extreme racism and complaints of all in sundry well. If you had someone who constantly complained of other races ie they are dirty, lazy, rude, how would you respond to these comments?

Is there an unfinished cycle of conflict?  What have you all had words about in the past?  Was there a lot of conflict in the divorce?  How recent?

It might help to characterize the bigger picture and to start looking at how to mend the past conflict.  Mending with a pwBPD can be complex, so it might help to lay it out and get ideas.

Building a better, more tolerable relationship will take time and effort.  It will likely involve validation and empathetic listening and other skills.  BPD is challenging for sure and it takes great strength to deal with it.

Do it for your grandchild   

[griz]

MIL : I am so sorry you feel Admonished, no one should feel that way and it certainly would not be very validating. I hope you do come back to the board where you can learn plenty about validation.  It was hard for me to get the hang of it at first but with practice it almost becomes second nature.

If you don't mind I just want to mention that although your son may be good at putting out the fire, that is not validation.  It sound more like your son placates her and agrees with whatever she wants to keep the peace.  Here is an example I think might help

 

My DD: This professor is so ridiculous.  I can't believe my paper was only 2 days late and then the f... .g idiot gave me a C because he took off points for being late.  This is so unfair.  I had a lot to do this week and was so overwhelmed and he's a moron.

Me being validating:  I can certainly understand why you are so upset with a C.  I saw that you were working very hard and you had a deadline to meet to hand this in.  Maybe you could schedule  a time with your professor to discuss this and find a way together to bring your grade up.

Me putting out the fire: Well I will write a letter or call that professor for you.  You are right that is so wrong and he needs to change your grade.

In the validation I am validating her feelings AND also pointing out that she had a deadline that she missed and helping her to find a way to deal with her dissappointment ie: meeting with the professor

In putting out the fire:  I might be validating her feelings but I am validating feelings either just to shut her up or I am sending her a message that her feelings AND her actions (raging, yelling any inappropriate way of handling this) are justified and OK.

I don't know if that helps and just an FYI - It's not so easy at first.

Griz

[mother in law]

Tis ok Griz I did have a wry smile on my face when I wrote that, as I thought of the irony of the people who write on this site who are so over being spoken to badly as well as treated badly, even if it from someone with mental health problems! However I may have read into Ibjnltx's something that is not intended. You may be right about my son placating her, however there is another twist to the story English is her 2nd language and as I remember when they lived with us for a year the anger would escalate if he did not agree to write letters, make complaints etc for her. Perhaps he should have said no, I think I would have if only for the reason that I didn't want to be involved in such nefarious claims. I will think about being involved in the validation process but at the moment things are so bad that I am just avoiding the problem. When I ring my granddaughter she doesn't want to talk to me (but is ok when her mother is not there). I think her mother has painted me so black that if I talk to her she gets another tirade about me. Another question do I address this or do I leave it? So much advice needed!

[anncgrl]

  Good Morning! As I read the beginning of this post I had to resist laughing. Not because I found the situation funny or because I don't understand the frustration and anger level of dealing with a BPD. I wanted to laugh because my first thought was, "When does anything always work when communicating with a BPD?" For that matter, when does anything always work with me as I try to communicate or understand the BPD. There are days when I just don't care. To the devil with validation and understanding rules my thoughts and often my actions. I might add that particular attitude will 100% of the time get a predictable result.  I might as well go out, get my hammer and bang myself in the head for a few minutes if I decide to heck with it and just let my resentments, angers and frustrations have their say. The BPD is not going to identify with my plight and he/she is going to gain a large cache of ammo to throw back at me at the earliest moment possible. Deep Breath! I am a member of AA, have been a member of several other organizations that help a member develop communication skills. I love that an earlier post stated that the validation method will work at times and will not work at times. When my motivation is, however deeply hidden, to impact and control the BPD by using a method such as validation it will always backfire on me and insult the BPD. My need to change that person in my life and my expectation of using a prescribed method to achieve that goal fails nearly as often as just letting it all out with no control and, to top it off, leaves me feeing defeated, angry and puzzled at why that method did not change the BPD. I used the validation method recently with great results but I allowed the BPD and I to continue for too long. My ego was driving me as I began to pat myself on the back for remaining calm and using my new method like a pro (see the ego... .new method... .like a pro... .arrogance on my part). As a result the entire interchange had no value at all. I suppose I  could call it a draw as the BPD had no ammo to toss back at me but I was exhausted. I felt as if I had been in an intense wrestling match with an incredibly worthy opponent who could have wrestled forever if I had not stopped the match. Lesson learned: Keep it short, dummy! All this to say that my expectations and motives are key. I have been in BPD pink cloud for about a week. It is a bit of a break from the drama but I'm no fool. There will come another day when the world turns upside down and a smile means I am making fun of him and my love is taken as a token love that I do not really feel for him. The only hope I see for me in these various relationships is to remain neutral unless truly in danger. Heck, I am neutralized already in the BPD world. He cannot change the fact that I love him though and in that I take great joy!

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[qcarolr]

He cannot change the fact that I love him though and in that I take great joy!

What can I do to be in a sincere place before I connect with a troublesome person? This is the only way that validation skills can assist in this connection.

The practice of letting go of my expectations for outcomes -- it is a daily process for me with everyone I love in my life. Letting go is required to stay connected with my BPDDD27.  How do I practice this? One way is to remind myself the connection/relationship is not all about me. I do not have any power or control over another - only for myself. And acceptance that there are many times when DD does not have access to her ablities to be in a two-way relationship - ie. she believes it is all about her and she has power and control over me.

Another way I choose to look at this is to consider what is my problem that I do have the power to fix/change. What belongs to my DD? What am I willing to ask for her to give to me that I can help with when she is overwhelmed? I can choose to take on a responsibility to a small degree - usually in connecting her to a resource. This is offering an opportunity to her. The outcome ALWAYS is her responsibility -- belongs to her.

When I believe that something belongs to me, when it does not, the result is ruminating worry about the future; anger; resentment; loss of healthy connection with my DD. Then I have to make repairs to our r/s, if possible.

One of my needs is to continue to reach out to my DD. I have a strong need to be in a r/s with her. It is up to me to make this a healthy link - healthy for myself. What helps me with this? Practices that keep me focused in the moment - mindfulness. For me this is prayer, working with my T for me and not to change my DD, finding joy in at least one small thing each day, doing the best to maintain all those lifestyle things that I so resist (rest, food, excercise, sunshine, breathing... .).

I am in a peaceful place for today and thankful I maybe can share a bit of this with you all.

qcr

[Reality]

Not a good idea to validate the invalid, according to DBT.  If the boundaries are not pushed into a reasonable place, there is not enough containment or sanity in the situation to even notice what is happening, let alone to be able to have a calm conversation.  Strong boundaries contain the emotions of everyone.

Thought this might be useful to the conversation.

Reality

[mother in law]

Thank you for all your answers I am processing them st the moment, Reality can you tell me what you mean?

[Reality]

Hi there mother in law:

The underlying feelings need to be validated, so that the pwBPD learns to recognize them and is then able to feel them fully.  Once validated, the person is able to think more clearly and conversations can happen. 

The negativity is from deep emotional pain.  Once feelings are expressed, the pain lessens. 

The boundaries simplify life.  By expressing who we are this way, it becomes a touchstone for the person with BPD, a calm staying point.  They know what to expect and that quiets the emotions. 

Reality

[Rapt Reader]

Hi, mother in law... .

There's an interesting article in Psychology Today: What You Need to Know About BPD that might give you some insights into your D-I-L's behaviors. I know it helped me understand my own undiagnosed D-I-L and BPD son (my son who's not her husband) a lot better. There's a paragraph there that really gave me an insight into their behaviors:

However, it’s important to recognize that people with BPD don’t want to make your life, or theirs, miserable. They don’t want the relationship to end badly, it just does. Research by Mount Sinai psychiatrist Antonia New and colleagues (2012) suggests that people with BPD have difficulties in understanding their own, and other people’s, emotions, in ways that land them in relationship trouble. 79 adults with BPD completed a questionnaire testing the fascinating term “alexithymia” meaning, simply, the inability to read emotions in others. Based on the premise that people with BPD have impaired social interactions, the research team decided to find out whether people with BPD could read the emotions of others compared to how they could read their own emotions.  If people with BPD can feel, but not identify, emotions, this could provide clues to their problematic relationships with others.

I'd be curious--Mother-In-Law to Mother-In-Law   --what you think about that Article. I already knew that my son's Social Anxiety has caused him so much pain and trouble in his life, and I've always actually had lots of compassion for him because of that. What I never realized is that my D-I-L most definitely has Social Anxiety, too, and that has caused a lot of her troubles with our family.

I truly never was aware of that; I'd heard her words and seen her actions, but didn't think of them in the context of her Social Anxiety. The reason most likely is that my non-BPD son (her husband) runs interference for her, like your son has done for your own D-I-L, so I never gave it a thought. I must admit, my compassion for her has increased because of this insight... .If you read that Article, let us know what you think~~Thanks!

[Bracken]

Hi

I think that validation is "in the eye of the beholder" - or more accurately, the EAR of the beholder. So - if someone is feeling very empty or pained inside themself they cannot recognize or receive the validation. Or they reject it from deep inside themselves - because they don't believe in or love themselves.

We can still offer validation. And hope that they can recognize our good intentions at least.

But - probably what they need most is professional help toward healing the emptiness and pain inside. They need validation growing from the inside out. 

[qcarolr]

But - probably what they need most is professional help toward healing the emptiness and pain inside. They need validation growing from the inside out.  

This is really key to progress that has better hope of sticking. My BPDDD27 is more open than ever to being in treatment. It is court ordered, she just spent 7 weeks in jail, she had most serious meltdown ever in June 2013... .So indeed, she has some validation coming from others in her life, not just me.

For the first time DD is able to take in that others care. IMHO, some of this came about when I could no longer do things for her (enabling) while she was in jail for those weeks. I did continue to validate to the best of my ability, could remind my input in jail limited, suggest she ask the jail staff for what she needed as often as needed. And she was in a jail program for women repeat offenders that required participation in classes. When she was released to probation she was stunned that 'there was a big cry session and the other women said they would miss me"... .The whole dual-dx probation program has been very validating from what I have been allowed to see. DD said after she invited me to meet with her probation officer "this is the first probation person that really cares about me". When I brought up the judged requirement for CBT, the PO said CBT was incorporated in all aspects of the program. She was very accepting and open to my comments on Dd's history. DD was not able to share most of this -- she struggles to express her needs in so many ways.

When DD was doing drugs (meth) and stoned on pot most of the time, she was not able to take in much of what anyone outside her toxic friend group had to share. When she got kicked out by this group - violent breakup with exbf who pressed harassment charges - I think she hit bottom. This severe triggering of so many of her BPD issues may have been a key to unlocking her vulnerability to open her heart to the care of so many.

I have never given up on loving my DD, advocating for her when others do not get her learning disability - when I see she is trying hard and others do not get that this is her best in the moment, and learning better when to get out of the way.

qcr


qcr