How do you know when to trust any transformation of your BPD?

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

My BPDw has been feeling more confident about the direction in her life by now pursuing a new career along with still working part-time. She is feeling more positive, although there are spurts of negativity not directed at me, but at others in her professional life. In terms of her relationship with me, she is being more positive and grateful, which she rarely expressed previously. Yet, one drawback is that she either works or studies and nothing else in between. She and I do not go out on dates. In fact, I believe it was some 3 years ago when we actually went out for dinner. So, while I am happy that she is happy, I am saddened that a quality relationship with her is simply not there. In fact, the reason that a family exists is because there is a couple. If a couple does not exist, then, that definitely influences and quite possibly harms the family structure now and in the future.

This current transformation of my BPDw has been going on for about a month. So, how do you know when to trust any transformation of your BPD? Is this change in behavior possible on a permanent basis, or will our BPDs go on the emotional rollercoaster ride, based on the moods of the day? Unfortunately, based on past experiences, she has changed her moods. So, that is why it is hard for me to truly believe this transformation. Even my best friend does not trust her. So, what do you think? 

[Samuel S.]

My BPDw has been feeling more confident about the direction in her life by now pursuing a new career along with still working part-time. She is feeling more positive, although there are spurts of negativity not directed at me, but at others in her professional life. In terms of her relationship with me, she is being more positive and grateful, which she rarely expressed previously. Yet, one drawback is that she either works or studies and nothing else in between. She and I do not go out on dates. In fact, I believe it was some 3 years ago when we actually went out for dinner. So, while I am happy that she is happy, I am saddened that a quality relationship with her is simply not there. In fact, the reason that a family exists is because there is a couple. If a couple does not exist, then, that definitely influences and quite possibly harms the family structure now and in the future.

This current transformation of my BPDw has been going on for about a month. So, how do you know when to trust any transformation of your BPD? Is this change in behavior possible on a permanent basis, or will our BPDs go on the emotional rollercoaster ride, based on the moods of the day? Unfortunately, based on past experiences, she has changed her moods. So, that is why it is hard for me to truly believe this transformation. Even my best friend does not trust her. So, what do you think? 

[Pearl55]

Do you know what made her to think more positively?

[Samuel S.]

Pearl, my BPDw decided to plan for the future by studying to be an acupuncturist. She is fed up with the customers and the politics of a job.

Another thing I am wondering about is even if this is remotely possible to be a permanent change which is hard to believe frankly, I don't know how to forgive her completely, because the hurts that she has done to me, to my family, and to my friends have been very intense over the years.

[Pearl55]

I'm very sorry to hear that. My husband really destroyed me to bits because he enjoys it. I'm new so I haven't read your previous posts but if she hasn't gone through intense therapy for a long time, PLEASE do not count on it. Jumping from one job to another is fairly common. I don't know if she has done it in the past or not. Changing careers won't resolve your wife's issues. ONLY years of intense therapies can help her to resolve her issues up to 50%. These are not my words, I've been told by couple of the best psychiatrists who are specialesed in BPD. Have you ever asked yourself why you want to continue and is your wife happy to be with you? I have to forgive my husband to be able to move one and heal. You should consider that your wife doesnt think the same way you do.

[Samuel S.]

My BPDw and I have both gone through traditional and non-traditional therapies over the years. She is talking on the phone and seeing a medium now counselor weekly. Pearl, I agree with you that she needs intense therapy. This occupational change is just a bandaid for the larger issues she faces. I personally believe she doesn't want to be close due to the verbal and physical abuse she suffered. She also lost her 7 1/2 year old daughter to a mosquito bite in 1999. So, a combination of these horrible things seems to occupy her time. At first, she was all lovey dovey. Now though, while she does talk to me for maybe a total of 15 minutes a day, she occupied with her own things exclusively. As for your question about why I am still with her after 12 years, I have always had the philosophies of mutual respect and where there's life, there's hope. Now, I am not quite sure about the hope part. My BPDw is happy, because she is getting what she wants, although I tried to share with her that we are a couple. She has told me that can happen after 4 years of her studying. I just don't know if I can wait.

[Samuel S.]

Pearl, seeing that your BPDh destroyed you and seeing that he enjoys it, have there been times that he has been remorseful and becomes lovey dovey? Either way, how do you feel about your situation with him?

[Pearl55]

I don't know how much you know about BPD. It took me more than 2 years to learn this disorder like a unit at uni to be able to sit on a exam and then apply to my husband's behaviours. They CRAVE to be in a relationship but they can't handle intimacy so they triangulate which means by overworking, studying, drinking, having a baby... .They DILUTE their concentration and focus on their partners.In my life, when my son was born, my husband replaced me with him. Everything was about my son and I didn't EXCIST in his life anymore. That's why I nearly lost my son. In the early phase of the relationship, they become whatever you dream in a person but as soon as they capture you, their true colour will appear. The man I fell in love never EXCIST, it was all FAKE. They view us as their OPPONENTS. They must win at any costs, in the entire relationship and during divorce. I had gone through hell since 3 years ago. I can hear my husband's voice, again he doesn't want to proceed the divorce. Ahh I don't know how much longer I can take. If you try to detach yourself from her you will be able to see everything very differently.

[Pearl55]

Yes he is a great ACTOR. He was one of the most caring man, to gain my trust. That part was all fake but when he was idealising and devaluing, again it was nothing to do with me. That was part of the splitting reflex and is about the disorder. When he was good he was very good and when he was bad, very bad. Sorry my writing English is not very good. He views me as his opponent but expect me to love him and care for him like a mum. That's why all borderlines enter the hater phase because impossible for us to be their mum. For me staying around is pointless because he lives in a different world. He only TALKS about very nice things with NO actions. It's not everything his fault, my IGNORANCE played an important role. I could see very odd patterns of behaviours earlier but I ignored them. I would run away from BPD's. Again I don't know how successful has been your wife's counselling. Probably her therapist should be able to let you know about her progresses.

[hergestridge]

I can just tell you how my BPD wife of 20 years works. When she's usually not very prone to change, suggesting (or rather demanding) that others adapt to her faults and idiosyncracies. But every now and then she takes this one step too far and someone (usually me) makes it clear that her behavior may not be tolerated (i e separation). When this happens it's like I have "called her bluff". She changes attitued completely and within days or weeks she claims to have made changes to her life and to her person that I know it would in fact take years in therapy to acheive.

She knows very well what she needs to do, and she seems to hate the fact that it means a lot of work. So she keeps telling me "Look, I did all the things you told me!" after just a few days.

This creates a negative response with me for two reasons:

1. Please don't do what I tell you. Your change is not my project and your illness is not my problem.

2. The reason BPD people benefit from DBT is because "just changing" doesn't work. They can be good boys or girls for a week or two, but the next time the hit hits the fan they fall back into the same old patterns. There's no quick fix. They can't just "shape up". If they could, it wouldn't be an ilness. Then it would just be bad manners.

[Samuel S.]

It's interesting that you use the word "fake". My BPDw's medium-counselor told her that she had been living a lie. She was pretending. She was faking. So, when she met me, the facade was very real. I always have accepted her as she is. I have listened to her. I have validated her. In other words, all the positive things you can think of. She realized that I was and still am very loving and sincere with not a fake bone in my body. Now that she is not faking anymore, she has gone to the other extreme. When I brought it to her attention that she has gone to the extreme, she admits she has. I have asked her to be involved with couple counseling along with medium-counseling. Yet, she says she has too many problems to deal with. Thus, she cannot consider couple counseling, but "maybe in the future". In the meantime, she is like someone who found a million dollars and is ready to squander it totally on herself, thus avoiding practically everybody. She does cook the meals for her daughter and for me, and she says that's the only way she can possibly connect with me. Pearl, indeed, your former BPDh is a great actor and so is mine. She can be extremely judgmental and cruel and then nice in the same breath. Indeed, her counseling has been successful in the sense that she feels better about herself, feeling free about what she is doing. In the meantime, I am lonely in a married relationship.

[Samuel S.]

Well, there goes my trust down the drain again. Some background info is warranted. I had a biopsy on my lower lip due to possible cancer. Luckily, it was just a freckle, thank goodness; however, I got an infection inside my mouth, but I got an antibiotic from my doctor. Periodically, my BPDw will check it out to see how it's doing. Sometimes, it is okay, and, sometimes, not. Tonight, a day before the antibiotic runs out, she checked it again, and it is infected again. I suggested that I should perhaps check with my doctor to possibly get more of this antibiotic, and she said no. Mind you, if I eat anything even close to the biopsy area, it hurts, and I have to drink some water to lessen the pain. Then, she told me that I should not get that area wet at all in order for it to heal. I promptly said that I cannot help but salivate. Then, she said: "yeah, I know". In other words, she wasn't helpful at all as far as helping me. If this infection doesn't clear up by Wednesday, BPDw or no BPDw, I am seeing my doctor. It is like taking one minor step forward and three major steps backward with my BPDw. UGH! Thanks for letting me vent!

[lkic]

When I had to have a basal cell carcinoma removed from my nose and not knowing whether this was going to be a little or a large operation until they started removing it therefore I was worried my BPDs told me not to talk to him about it as he had enough of his own problems without worrying about me.  I had given up my life to look after him for over a year previously and was doing the same again for 6 months.  No appreciation, no guilt no nothing.  I think this is one of the most selfish illnesses out there.  I wonder if I died if he would care, I don't think he is capable of caring about anyone.  Is this part of the disorder or do I just have a son who couldn't care less about his family?

[Samuel S.]

Lkic, if your BPDs cannot care, it is his problem. It may take years upon years of reflection without the haze of being a BPD for him to really and truly care. At this point in time, we nonBPDs all care about you. It is too bad that he can't.

My BPDw is now being wishy washy. When I first introduced some exciting news about a book project that was accepted by my publisher, she was happy for me. My publisher wanted a subtitle which I submitted that now has been accepted. Well, I shared the exciting news this time with my BPDw, she said that the title is too long. I promptly told her my publisher accepted this title. She promptly didn't say anything - again like you, no appreciation, no guilt no thing.

BPDs definitely do have a selfish illness due to their past and due to not wanting to recognize anyone else's merits or accomplishments. Mind you, I validate her. I have loved her. I have supported her in every single way, and this is how she treats me. It definitely is very sad, and I suspect it may take years for her to really and truly care as well.   

[hergestridge]

About sharing good news:

It's all about how the BPD is feeling at the moment. If my BPD wife is having a bad day, she will have something negative to say about even most fantastic news. It's all very hurtful.

[lkic]

I am tired of feeling hurt and I suspect so are all the non BPD people on here.  I am tired of not mattering (is that a word I suspect not).  I am tired of having my head space filled up with someone else's illness and I am really tired of feeling anxious and depressed because of someone else's BPD.  Sorry for the rant.  I want my life back.

[Pearl55]

It's nothing about US. Is everything about THEM.their feelings and emotions are very different to normal people. They lack EMPATHY but have some sympathy. Again their sympathy is different to adult sympathies. When we are hurt and depressed, they enjoy it! How do you expect when they view us as their opponents? We are only OBJECTS to control to be able to control themselves! It's so sad, such a waste of years.

[hergestridge]

From what I've heard (and read) BPD people don't mature and grow up like other people, so you can't expect much in the way "transformation" through experience or learning like one would expect from you the rest of us. The intensity of the feelings eliminates the learning process. They have to learn how to mature "artificially" through DBT or the like.

However, they seem to be as stubborn as they are inconsistent - which I find terribly frustrating. Once my wife finds out that find something unacceptable about her she can claim to have changed overnight, and she finds it hurtful when I question that.

[Samuel S.]

Here we go again! Due to an antibiotic for an infection I have, my ability to eat and to drink much is way down. My energy level has been down. I decided to cancel some appointments that I had scheduled for today, which I normally do not do. So, for about half a day, I slept. I feel a little bit better now, thank goodness. Well, my BPDw has been studying a lot for her classes and is now at home here. She said she couldn't concentrate on what she needs to do, because I was taking some of her "valuable" time to study. I am not a sarcastic person, but I was not feeling good when she made that statement. So, I retorted by saying I was sorry to be interfering with her valuable time in a sarcastic way. She then got the picture. She went back to studying, and I went back to sleep. While I can understand her inability to concentrate fully because of my health, she was definitely laying the blame on me for getting sick. Then, this afternoon, she regained some sense of decency by preparing some soup for me. Like so many of you have said, BPDs want the center of attention. They can't stand it that someone else might have the attention either intentionally or unintentionally. Also, she is acting superior by how she is improving so much and rarely acknowledges any improvement or success that I make or others for that matter. Thanks for letting me vent!

[lkic]

I had the same thing with my BPDs he couldn't get better whilst I was around so I took to literally walking the streets for hours and hours at a time.  He was studying CBT and my being around hampered his recovery.  I am very lucky to have another property in another country to go and live in but he is living in my property with me paying the bills yet even then, even then there seems no appreciation other than the occasional platitude when he has gone too far with the abuse.  I think one of the problems I find is that to lose it which I occasionally did just made things a whole lot worse so I had to bottle it and as he never wanted me discussing him I couldn't even talk about it to anyone.  But what happens to the anger when it's trapped inside you is that you get depressed and I am feeling really depressed right now and not looking forward to the future.  My life is a mess with my head all over the place. 

[Samuel S.]

Thank goodness, my stomach is much better than it was for the last several days. There have been times when my BPDw was helpful giving me soup and letting me sleep as long as I needed, for example. Yet, yesterday, while I was sound asleep, she peeked in the door and saw that I was completely still. It was only a few seconds later that she heard me starting to snore. After I woke, she explained what she had done. She started to laugh, because she thought I was dead. Yes, she laughed while saying that I was dead. Maybe, I am being too sensitive or have been around her for too long, but I suspect that if anyone were to say something like that while laughing, that that person is cruel. Am I wrong? I know people have different ways of coping with different situations. Even if this is her way to handle this situation, I find it extremely unnerving, because her first daughter who was 7 1/2 at the time died of a mosquito bite. What do you folks think? Thank you!

[lkic]

I think that says it all really people with BPD do not have normal responses to anything even potential death.  In some ways they should be pitied though because can you even imagine reacting like that to the thought of your spouse having died.  It's just not normal is it.  Whether it is actually cruel I don't know, if she could have helped it then it might be seen as cruel but as she can't help it perhaps it is just sad.  How many hours do we spend trying to figure out people who are actually impossible to figure out.  We do spend a lot of our lives trying to work out their thoughts and actions, a waste of time really. 

[Samuel S.]

Depending how you want to look at it, I might have made my situation worse tonight. Before Thanksgiving dinner tonight, my sister's-in-law boyfriend who has gone through a lot of trauma discusssed how he was abused physically when he was younger. Luckily, he has been able to overcome this trauma. He knows how my BPDw was physically abused as well. I then shared with him how she has not been physically abusive, but she has been verbally abusive with me. He was not alarmed, but I might cooked my own goose, if you will. If he tells my sister-in-law, while she and my BPDw do not talk frequently, she could easily say something to her, and it would definitely get back to me. In that respect, I am scared about any possible repercussions. On the other hand, I need to mentally prepare myself for that possibility and tell her that I was not lying, that I have plenty of examples to prove that she has been very verbally abusive.

[Pearl55]

Ikik, I've spent more than two years to learn this disorder. Although I've got very high qualifications and I consider myself an intelligent woman but it was still very hard to work out his MIND GAMES. When my husband open his mouth I can read his mind like a book. I've realised that I've wasted all these time to learn all the nonsense but helped me to move on and see his real him. I fell in love with his MASK. The man I loved, NEVER existed.

[waverider]

A lot of the "improvements" and new found application is real to them. They are trying to change, and yes to a certain degree they are selling themselves a facade a "new them". Living a facade is all they know, they have difficulty changing deep down. I say "difficult" not impossible. Any real changes do take a long time to be permanent. Any overnight seeing "errors' of their ways lasts only as long as the next difficult testing time.

They are not trying to stay disordered, they just don't know how to make deep core level personality changes, so they start by "acting" the part. Just as we "act" the lessons here long before it becomes ingrained in our personality.

Changing a personality is difficult, more so if your tools are defective.

When it comes to 'trust" it is more about accepting what is in front of you, with the full knowledge that it may, or may not stay that way. Blind trust is a long way off.

[lkic]

Samuel S   I think that is what happens your anxiety goes into overdrive and you feel almost scared but remember you have not said anything that is untrue and sometimes you need to share with another human just to feel normal.  I know that feeling so well just waiting for the other shoe to fall.  I hope she doesn't get to find out but have you thought about telling her about the conversation yourself and perhaps play it down a bit?

 

Pearl 55 I think that is a really good way to describe it you fell in love with his mask.  Personally if it were me I would have walked too in my case it is not my partner but my child so it's difficult to walk away but I am very well aware that there is not another person on the planet that I would take this abuse from and not walk.  Well done to you for understanding it and getting out.

[lkic]

Waverider     How very true, my son tries his hardest to change and it is truly heartbreaking to watch.  It's not fair that they have this permanent struggle and fight with themselves every day just to survive.  I have tried to react to the person who is standing in front of me, if he is nice I am nice if he is horrible I try and keep quiet and let him rant on, very difficult when you are being blamed for things that you couldn't possibly have caused and told how stupid you are.  I can have a lovely evening then the next time I see him when he wakes up he is like a different person.  I have felt really strongly that there is two people inside him a really nice one and a horrible nasty one.  I wish I had found this site years ago.

[Samuel S.]

My BPDw can have a good day, but will only accentuate the negative so that there is more emphasis on her struggles than on her achievements. This is her way to get empathy and for me to listen and to validate her. When I have my own struggles and when I have my own achievements, I rarely exhibit my emotions to her, because she will always say "that's horrible" and start talking about herself or will say "that's nice" and start talking about herself. If I were to exhibit frustration which I rarely feel or complete joy to her which I truly do feel oftentimes, she will look at me with disgust, thus saying indirectly that I am almost like her slave, in a manner of speaking. Yes, we nonBPDs have learned quite well from our SOs that they seek and demand the attention, that their world is much more significant than ours. In actuality, they are important, and we are important, but their issues, whether they be from the past or now or both, cloud their reality. We nonBPDs either accept their clouded reality of minimizing us, or we move on. Whatever decision we make, it is a hard one which I am still battling.

[hergestridge]

They are not trying to stay disordered, they just don't know how to make deep core level personality changes, so they start by "acting" the part. Just as we "act" the lessons here long before it becomes ingrained... .

I'm not sure I agree here. With my BPD wife the same scenario repeats over and over. She pretends to have changed in a profound way but everytime the high-risk situation occurs again it turns our that she haven't changed at all. She knows that reL change is very painful, but that theatre play for a week or two is bearable. But that's about it, then she falls into old patterns.

I don't find that the lip service of my BPD wife transforms into some kind of long-term change or self-reflection. A lot of the time it's also a question of her re-telling someone elses criticism word by word. The only tine she uses her her own words (and thus internalizing it) in when she eventually rejects it.

I don't think my wife is trying to stay disordered, but it's a personality disorder afterall. And she is defending her disordered personality with all means possible, and the moments are few and few between when she is in the right frame of mind to talk about herself and her illness.

[Pearl55]

Hergestridge, do you know what are our problems as non BPDs? We think they think the same way we do. That's why we stuck in our own wrong believes. Why she has to change when you are still in the relationship and take all her abuse? You've got to consider that so many times she thinks you are the disordered one! When she pretends she has changed and if you believe it, she sees you as a non intelligent man that's why you are not good enough for her so her true colour will be back! Sometimes when she thinks she's the one who has issues, she would ask herself what is wrong with you who has stayed with her for long. That's the futile exercise if you think by staying with her you would make things better. My psychiatrist told me that only choice is leaving and my husband has to really think that he lost me so if he doesn't want to lose me, he will attend therapy. I knew that wouldn't happen because he suffers from NPD as well so he thinks I'm the crazy one. By therapy I mean YEARS of intense therapy.

[waverider]

They are not trying to stay disordered, they just don't know how to make deep core level personality changes, so they start by "acting" the part. Just as we "act" the lessons here long before it becomes ingrained... .

I'm not sure I agree here. With my BPD wife the same scenario repeats over and over. She pretends to have changed in a profound way but everytime the high-risk situation occurs again it turns our that she haven't changed at all. She knows that reL change is very painful, but that theatre play for a week or two is bearable. But that's about it, then she falls into old patterns.

I don't find that the lip service of my BPD wife transforms into some kind of long-term change or self-reflection. A lot of the time it's also a question of her re-telling someone elses criticism word by word. The only tine she uses her her own words (and thus internalizing it) in when she eventually rejects it.

I don't think my wife is trying to stay disordered, but it's a personality disorder afterall. And she is defending her disordered personality with all means possible, and the moments are few and few between when she is in the right frame of mind to talk about herself and her illness.

These comments only apply to those pwBPD who acknowledge the disorder and are serious about dealing with them. Many, and your wife may be one, are simply saying and doing what is necessary to avoid blame or responsibility and effectively going nowhere.

The desire needs to come from them, the point is that even when the desire is there it still comes with a lot of back and forward. It is a long haul