I think she is is losing - haven't seen divorce papers and threats are flying

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Long  Story - Sorry

Well I am now 11 days into my journey to freedom after 25 years with the stbxw.  I told her that I found the situation hopeless and would not be willing to continue.  We have 3 kids D20 away at school, S18 and S16 still in high school.

It has been one heck of a ride already.  Of course she demanded that I leave the house which I did to try and preserve some peace for my sons who are still living there.  After the first night I got about 1-2 emails a day stating that she needed me to stay away and could not stand to be in the room with me, and oh yeah if I tried to move back she would drag out the divorce forever.  Whatever.  There is a great deal of peace in being able to totally ignore someone who held sway for so long.

First weekend was a bit scary as I tried to text and call sons and did not get much response.  Finally on the Monday after the weekend, the floodgates broke open and they started calling and texting and we have been in pretty much daily contact since then.  I usually will meet them for dinner, or they drop by my work or come to family's house where I am staying.  Things are going okay until weekend number two (this weekend) when stbxw starts email bombing about what the plans are for the weekend.  I tell her that I have not had chance to discuss with boys and I would get back to her when I knew what was up.

S16 basically has mom figured out and wants nothing to do with her.  S18 is gentle kid who probably knows but still does not want to hurt mom.

So Friday they have half day at school and text me that they want to come up for lunch by my work. Great we have nice lunch and things between sons and I looking good.    I talk things over with stbxw via email and text.  Now that we are a week out she is starting to feel somewhat empowered and she starts squawking about visitation plans and how my replies were not timely.  Sigh, I am trying to make it easy on sons to come and go and feel okay, she wants to act like they are 5 years old.  Hello, the visitation plan is called they have drivers licenses and car keys.

S16 decides to spend the night with me on Friday night and we have a good time basically just chilling.  I return him on Saturday afternoon early and pick up S18 for an afternoon activity together.  Stbxw emails me in the meantime informing me of plans to take them to movie that night.  Concurrently S16 texts me and says he would rather not go.  I tell him I empathize and that he has a right to express that but if he can handle it might be easier to just suck it up and go to keep the peace for him at home, but that I will support him whatever the decision.

I drop S18 back at home after activity during the course of which he has informed me how stbxw has gone on a bit of a spending binge, money management never having been her strong point.  Spent $250 to get dog neutered, $180 on car repair, both of which I knew of, but then $100+ on dinner and more recreation spending planned.

I jumped into the bank account online and see we have about $300 to last the next week to cover all bills.  I send her a factual, brief email informing her of this and asking her to please be careful with spending going forward.  I also reply to an additional email she sent regarding S18 attending a school extra credit project the next day.

S16 texts me in middle of movie saying never again. I tell him I am sorry to have him middle of this situation.  He asks for confirmation that he is spending the night again with me after movie.  I say sure, whatever you want to do, let me know what time to pick up.

 

An hour later the stbxw has emailed me responding to my email of 3 hours previous regarding the S18 and the extra credit project.  I assume the movie is over and reply to her.  I then follow up with a separate email mentioning that S16 wants to spend the night again and I needed to coordinate time to pick him.  

Again she goes into full dysregulation and replies with 3 or 4 emails to my one line request to coordinate a pick up time, each email more vitriolic, the final one threatening to call her attorney right then and there and apparently go to the emergency Saturday night court.  Uh huh.  She then told me son could not spend night and reminding me that I moved out (conveniently omitting her role).

I just let it go, until both sons begin texting me telling me of their plan to sneak out of the house and bring younger son over.  I counsel against, but also try to protect them from her anticipated wrath.  Sadly before plan comes to fruition she takes S16 phone and reads the texts, resulting in more angry emails and a phone call which of course I did not answer.  Sons finally gave up and I went over in the morning to get S16.  S18 has asked me to help him file emancipation papers.

Questions

1) Is any court really going to hold a pendente lite hearing to determine custody and visitation for a 18 year old who will be emancipated in 5 months and a 16 year old who can drive himself?

2) Has anyone had their pwBPD go full nuclear before the divorce papers have even been delivered?

3) Any recommendations about how to get sons into counseling after mom has poisoned that environment for them?

4) Any advice or things to watch for?  I have already told L to expect false accusations.  I have also prepped family if police should show up on the doorstep.

[ugghh]

Long  Story - Sorry

Well I am now 11 days into my journey to freedom after 25 years with the stbxw.  I told her that I found the situation hopeless and would not be willing to continue.  We have 3 kids D20 away at school, S18 and S16 still in high school.

It has been one heck of a ride already.  Of course she demanded that I leave the house which I did to try and preserve some peace for my sons who are still living there.  After the first night I got about 1-2 emails a day stating that she needed me to stay away and could not stand to be in the room with me, and oh yeah if I tried to move back she would drag out the divorce forever.  Whatever.  There is a great deal of peace in being able to totally ignore someone who held sway for so long.

First weekend was a bit scary as I tried to text and call sons and did not get much response.  Finally on the Monday after the weekend, the floodgates broke open and they started calling and texting and we have been in pretty much daily contact since then.  I usually will meet them for dinner, or they drop by my work or come to family's house where I am staying.  Things are going okay until weekend number two (this weekend) when stbxw starts email bombing about what the plans are for the weekend.  I tell her that I have not had chance to discuss with boys and I would get back to her when I knew what was up.

S16 basically has mom figured out and wants nothing to do with her.  S18 is gentle kid who probably knows but still does not want to hurt mom.

So Friday they have half day at school and text me that they want to come up for lunch by my work. Great we have nice lunch and things between sons and I looking good.    I talk things over with stbxw via email and text.  Now that we are a week out she is starting to feel somewhat empowered and she starts squawking about visitation plans and how my replies were not timely.  Sigh, I am trying to make it easy on sons to come and go and feel okay, she wants to act like they are 5 years old.  Hello, the visitation plan is called they have drivers licenses and car keys.

S16 decides to spend the night with me on Friday night and we have a good time basically just chilling.  I return him on Saturday afternoon early and pick up S18 for an afternoon activity together.  Stbxw emails me in the meantime informing me of plans to take them to movie that night.  Concurrently S16 texts me and says he would rather not go.  I tell him I empathize and that he has a right to express that but if he can handle it might be easier to just suck it up and go to keep the peace for him at home, but that I will support him whatever the decision.

I drop S18 back at home after activity during the course of which he has informed me how stbxw has gone on a bit of a spending binge, money management never having been her strong point.  Spent $250 to get dog neutered, $180 on car repair, both of which I knew of, but then $100+ on dinner and more recreation spending planned.

I jumped into the bank account online and see we have about $300 to last the next week to cover all bills.  I send her a factual, brief email informing her of this and asking her to please be careful with spending going forward.  I also reply to an additional email she sent regarding S18 attending a school extra credit project the next day.

S16 texts me in middle of movie saying never again. I tell him I am sorry to have him middle of this situation.  He asks for confirmation that he is spending the night again with me after movie.  I say sure, whatever you want to do, let me know what time to pick up.

 

An hour later the stbxw has emailed me responding to my email of 3 hours previous regarding the S18 and the extra credit project.  I assume the movie is over and reply to her.  I then follow up with a separate email mentioning that S16 wants to spend the night again and I needed to coordinate time to pick him.  

Again she goes into full dysregulation and replies with 3 or 4 emails to my one line request to coordinate a pick up time, each email more vitriolic, the final one threatening to call her attorney right then and there and apparently go to the emergency Saturday night court.  Uh huh.  She then told me son could not spend night and reminding me that I moved out (conveniently omitting her role).

I just let it go, until both sons begin texting me telling me of their plan to sneak out of the house and bring younger son over.  I counsel against, but also try to protect them from her anticipated wrath.  Sadly before plan comes to fruition she takes S16 phone and reads the texts, resulting in more angry emails and a phone call which of course I did not answer.  Sons finally gave up and I went over in the morning to get S16.  S18 has asked me to help him file emancipation papers.

Questions

1) Is any court really going to hold a pendente lite hearing to determine custody and visitation for a 18 year old who will be emancipated in 5 months and a 16 year old who can drive himself?

2) Has anyone had their pwBPD go full nuclear before the divorce papers have even been delivered?

3) Any recommendations about how to get sons into counseling after mom has poisoned that environment for them?

4) Any advice or things to watch for?  I have already told L to expect false accusations.  I have also prepped family if police should show up on the doorstep.

[Matt]

Wow - a tough time.  I been there - 10 years married, 4 kids... .

Some suggestions... .

First, I think you're doing a good job of not responding to everything she sends you.  Might be best to only communicate with her through your lawyer.

Second, I think it's super-important that you have as much quality time with each kid as possible - make sure they know you care about them and that you'll always have a place for them.  If you can manage to have a place big enough for them to spend time there, that will be best.  Be super-involved - help with homework, college planning, etc. - as much as before or more if you can.

About the house:  Usually it's best not to abandon the home, but because your kids are older, it's probably good that you're not in the same home as your wife during the divorce - much less stress for everybody.  You'll have to decide if you want the house;  if not, make sure the value of the equity is considered when you get to division of assets.  You should get other assets to compensate for giving that up.

Get a separate bank account right away, and make sure you don't have any accounts or credit cards in common.  Make sure every penny of your money is in your sole control.  Let your lawyer work out a short-term settlement - maybe you need to pay the mortgage, for example - but do not feel that you need to give your wife unlimited money like before.  Then put together a proposal for settlement, along the lines of what is standard in your state.  Most states have guidelines for alimony and child support - find those and make your proposal accordingly.  If she accepts it, great.  If not, don't give her all the money she wants - let the court decide.

All your kids are old enough to more-or-less decide for themselves where to live.  Work it out with them, and let your lawyer know what you are doing.  Do not force any of them to stay with their mom, but encourage them to have some regular contact with her - maybe see her on the weekends or whatever works out well.  Do not assume that a "child" needs to be with his mother - not true.  At 16, a child has lots of needs, and it's up to you to understand what they are and meet them.  For example, you might need to find a way your youngest can stay with you most of the time, even if it's crowded - he'll appreciate that you're doing the best you can even if he doesn't get his own room, for example.

1) The court might hold such a hearing, but don't be afraid of it - get pro-active and put forward a solution yourself.  Have your lawyer act fast so you don't get blind-sided.  And talk with the kids about what you learn, so they are prepared too - they need to know that the court will not force them to live with their mom if they don't want to.  If they are prepared to speak up, they can tell the court - or their mom - "I am living with Dad now."  The court will not enforce an order to live with Mom, if the child has a place with Dad.

(By the way, I'm not an attorney, and nobody here can give you legal advice.  Just telling you what I've seen and what I've read from others here.  Best to find out how things work where you live.)

2) Yes - nuclear is a good word.  Many of us have been falsely accused of stuff including serious crimes.  I was accused of assault - the story she told the police was pretty much attempted murder but they knew she was lying.  A good reason to have no direct contact with her, without a non-family adult third party present.

3) You can't force an adult to go to counseling, but if you think it's best for the 16-year-old, tell him, "You and I are going to counseling - do you want to get a Coke on the way?".  Lead by example - get counseling for yourself, and for him, and you and he can also talk with his counselor together - an open conversation about how things are going and what will work best for everyone.  Treat him like an adult, except don't ask if he wants to see a counselor - you make that decision.

Also, don't treat it as "fixing" a "problem" that he has - there is probably nothing wrong with him, it's the situation he's in that is the problem, and that's not his fault.  Instead, talk about how counseling is a way to get help dealing with difficult stuff.  Tell him that you're feeling very stressed too, so that's why you're seeing a counselor - to get help dealing with all the stuff that's happening.  "There's nothing wrong with either you or me - we're dealing with stuff the best we can, and we can both benefit from counseling so that's what we're going to get."

I went through this with my S15 recently - he was super-reluctant at first but now he's OK with it.  But make sure to choose a counselor who you think will be patient and who can bond with your son - it's the counselor's job to show that he or she can be a valuable resource to him.

4)  You're thinking right.  False accusations are likely and you will be presumed guilty til proven innocent.

Don't be around her.  If you must have contact for some reason, make sure a non-family adult third party is present every moment.  No phone contact - she can claim you threatened her.  E-mail is OK but copy your lawyer, and don't respond to any emotions, threats, etc. - just practical matters related to the kids.

Work things out with the kids as much as possible, and encourage them to tell their mom what will happen.  If that doesn't work, step in quickly and say, "No problem, I'll talk with your mom." - don't make the kids your messengers.

Give her no excuse at all to come to where you live.  Do all the pickups and drop-offs, or let the kids drive themselves.  If she comes where you are, don't open the door - make sure all the doors are locked - and call the police.

My lawyer told me, after my stbX came into my home when I was gone, "Write her an e-mail and copy me.  Tell her not to come into your home without your written permission.  Then if she violates that you can get a restraining order."

[david]

Everything Matt said.

I went to jail for two weeks because of false allegations. After that I purchased and audio and a video recorder. I have the audio recorder in my pocket and on whenever I am near her. I have the video recorder with me too just in case. I am not allowed to record in my state. However, I talked to my attorney and explained it this way, "I am recording myself so that if I have false allegations against me I can use the recording of myself as proof that I did nothing wrong. The judge will have to take that in consideration and can not use anything ex says or does on the recording." My attorney said I have a valid point and to do what I am doing. It may not be allowed in court but it could be listened to by the police if she makes another false allegation. This would keep me from being arrested in the first place. I put nothing past my ex anymore. When I think it necessary I turn the video recorder on and point it at me. I put them on my hardrive at home. Ex knows what I am doing and keeps her distance. She has tried only twice to approach me in two years and I simply turned the video recorder on and she walked away.

[ForeverDad]

If you can get the paperwork together first, go ahead and file first.

She is becoming more and more predictably unpredictable.  As more time goes by she is likely to get more desperate, more demanding and it will get worse.  I repeat my quote above, even is who files first doesn't legally matter, I still feel it best to do it first.  Hers would be full of false allegations, distract from the basic issues at hand and you'd be positioned to play defense and catch up.

I jumped into the bank account online and see we have about $300 to last the next week to cover all bills.

You left your money where she can access it?  She rightly is figuring that court will let her drain the account(s) with little or no consequences.  At most the money she splurges now might, and I emphasize might, be deducted when the financials are calculated.  So time to get that under control.  She works, she has her own not-insignificant income, if you pull back some funds it's not like she becomes destitute.

Bank accounts - If you have joint savings, it is VERY wise to protect at least your half, okay to remove half and place into a personal account.  Start depositing your paychecks and earnings into a personal account.  Yes, it's likely she will have drained or hidden her money by the time you get to calculating the financials, but at least you won't have let her drain or hide your money.

While it is good to stop putting money into joint accounts, you or your lawyer may decide it is wise to put some money there so there is no basis for her to make allegations.  But if it's not used for marital obligations such as mortgage, insurance, utilities, etc then  it might be best to pay those directly and not give her any of your money.  Hopefully your lawyer is experienced enough to advise regarding that.

Credit cards -  Try to close all JOINT credit cards.  Sometimes that's hard since if you try to close it the company will insist it has to be paid off first and ex will keep taking it off suspended status and keep making charges.

If you are the account holder and she is card holder, then you can have her cards cancelled.

If she is the account holder and you are card holder, then she can have your cards cancelled.

I tell him I empathize and that he has a right to express that but if he can handle it might be easier to just suck it up and go to keep the peace for him at home, but that I will support him whatever the decision... .  I am sorry to have him middle of this situation.

As you found out, you can't "keep the peace" by playing nice.  Sad but that's the way it is.  So do what you have to do but of course don't do anything that would look bad to the courts or evaluators, no screaming, bickering, fighting, etc.  You can't REASON with her so communications need to be very basic and straightforward.  Meanwhile, keep VALIDATING the children on their observations and conclusions.  Without an order by the court, she can't force the children to live with her and not with you.  Even if she called the police, they'd most likely tell her they'd only get involved if there was a court order stating a specific schedule and even then they'd tell her to resolve any issues in court.  Police likely won't want to be 'truant officers', maybe for school, but not between parents.

1.  Yes, a court might set a parenting schedule and child support payments but since they're either adults or older teens most courts would allow the children at some point to express their wishes.  However, I don't know if that would be at the first hearing or months later during evaluations, etc.  I fear it might be later.  I fear the judge might ask where the children are living and then order that the "status quo" continue in the temporary order, an order that typically continues until the final decree which could take a year or even longer.  So... .if your teen(s) want to live with you, then I really feel now - before the judge hears what the status quo is and makes a temp order forcing it to stay the same - now (or soon) is when your son ought to move in with you.  Of course, you don't tell her "son is moving in with me next weekend" or else she will sabotage that.  It has to be presented as a done deal, something that already happened.  Repeat, giving her information could be self-sabotaging so be very careful what you disclose to her and when.

2.  Yes, my ex went full nuclear on me.  My son was only 3 then, a preschooler.  Her first allegation was that I broke son' elbow at a local park.  He wasn't even racing, he just tipped it over going slow and there wasn't even a scratch, just chipped.  When that didn't work she took him down to the local children's hospital and tried to insinuate child abuse of the very worst perverted sort.  Meanwhile she had registered him for child therapy at a local agency and had listed me as a suspected child abuser.  That's how nuclear she went.  It kept up for the entire length of the two year divorce process.

3.  Matt made good suggestions about therapy.  I recall my lawyer emphasizing to me that courts really like therapy and counseling.  Something you can do 24 hours a day is to always remember to validate their observations and good decisions.  Living with a disordered parent probably made it hard for them to recognize what life should really have been like.  Recovery, like so many other things, is a process and not an event.  For example, you recommended your son stay with mother to "keep the peace".  Nice intentions but it failed spectacularly.  Learn from that.  Mother will sabotage whenever possible so work around that.

4.  Watch out that your spouse will see the children as leverage over you and she will try to manipulate and even intimidate them.  Ponder over how to deal with that.  Expect her to paint you as Mr Evil Personified to them.  Younger son my not be fooled, but I wonder how middle son would cope with it.  She might try to parentify him, sharing marital complaints with him and trying to get him to take your place as official appeaser.  Periodically remind them all, and especially him, that she's an adult, somewhat functional in society and gainfully employed, and so they don't need to feel sorry for her and sacrifice themselves for her.  Remind them that if her life is lousy then it's her issue and they can't "fix" her, after all you tried for 25 years and you weren't able to do it, it would be unrealistic for them to think that they could do what no others have been able to do in all these years.

There is a very good chance that you will settle before going before a judge. You will be deciding what you are willing to offer her, and accept, and there will be quite a bit of negotiation back and forth, either in mediation or through settlement offers via your lawyers. You may never see a judge.

I settled 98% of my stuff in mediation and was rather shocked how fast the wheeling/dealing went, and how loosely the lawyers threw around tens of thousands of dollars, like money was just made of paper. If I could do it over, I would have spent MUCH more time prior to mediation writing down what my best-case offer was, worse-case, likely-case (meaning, what N/BPDx was probably going to want or do), and then talked to my lawyer about it in detail. Instead, we got into mediation and I was flooded in emotion, could barely breathe, and was not at all on my game. I did ok, but I could have done better.

Going before a judge is possible - likely for an initial temporary order - but most of the cases here eventually settle -- I think FD and Matt settled outside on the court steps.

So you are going to be the judge who decides what is fair or not. If you think she should hang onto her car, then that's a cut-and-dried part of your offer.

At this point, it's about negotiation tactics. Don't leave it up to your lawyer. They aren't invested in this like you are, and some of them are just plain bad at it.

Start with something quite absurd in your favor, but allowable by state guidelines. Then wait for their counter offer, which will be equally absurd in the other direction. Then keep doing that until you get to your reasonable scenario, the one you feel is fair and do-able for you.

Beware of too-calm almost timid stance in family court.  Decide now what your priorities are and then be your own best advocate.  Yes, most lawyers want their clients to remain silent so they don't make their own case worse, but make sure your lawyer will stand up for you.  Beware of phases such as "Yes, it sucks but don't worry, keep quiet, we'll fix it later."  Later might be a year from now.

For example, ex wants a new car.  No problem... .she can buy a new car from her portion of the marital assets, that could be an incentive for her to settle sooner, maybe.  Don't feel guilted to cave in.  Not even if she claims you're not being 'fair'.  Believe me, court will make sure she is treated way more than 'fair'.

[livednlearned]

If you can get the paperwork together first, go ahead and file first.

She is becoming more and more predictably unpredictable.  As more time goes by she is likely to get more desperate, more demanding and it will get worse.  I repeat my quote above, even is who files first doesn't legally matter, I still feel it best to do it first.  Hers would be full of false allegations, distract from the basic issues at hand and you'd be positioned to play defense and catch up.

In my state, once you file, any debt the two parties generate belongs to them (regardless of the status of your credit card). Meaning, even if she charged items to a joint credit card, she would be held responsible for paying it. Check in your state how it works -- might be another reason to file quickly so you aren't left holding the bag for any debt she racks up after date of separation.

[maxen]

and in my state, any money you earn after the date of filing is not considered marital property, so it would be safe from touching.

[Matt]

If you can get the paperwork together first, go ahead and file first.

She is becoming more and more predictably unpredictable.  As more time goes by she is likely to get more desperate, more demanding and it will get worse.  I repeat my quote above, even is who files first doesn't legally matter, I still feel it best to do it first.  Hers would be full of false allegations, distract from the basic issues at hand and you'd be positioned to play defense and catch up.

In my state, once you file, any debt the two parties generate belongs to them (regardless of the status of your credit card). Meaning, even if she charged items to a joint credit card, she would be held responsible for paying it. Check in your state how it works -- might be another reason to file quickly so you aren't left holding the bag for any debt she racks up after date of separation.

That's how it works in my state too - split based on the date someone files for divorce (or legal separation).

Sometimes an attorney will argue that the parties were effectively separated on an earlier date - separate homes etc. - and the judge may rule that that's the date that counts.

Certainly best to separate your finances completely, as soon as possible.

[Waddams]

Sometimes an attorney will argue that the parties were effectively separated on an earlier date - separate homes etc. - and the judge may rule that that's the date that counts.

I would think having a STBX that is sending emails along the lines of:

After the first night I got about 1-2 emails a day stating that she needed me to stay away and could not stand to be in the room with me, and oh yeah if I tried to move back she would drag out the divorce forever.

Could an argument be made that she has made an implied agreement that the marital separation has begun?  She's not only agreeing for him to leave, but is encouraging it in writing.  Then establish marital assets value on that date, divide by 2, and there's how much they are each entitled to?  And if she's spent part of his part, then he can be reimbursed by some means?

I do want to echo the comments of others to separate financially ASAP.  Maybe even empty the joint accounts.  Take it all, especially if she's frivolously spending it.  Make sure the bills are paid instead.  That's defendable.  Get to a bank ASAP and open a new account.  Even if you can only put $5 in it.  Redirect any direct deposits to it from your job immediately.  And I agree that you should close and joint banking accounts/credit cards/etc. ASAP.  If you need to yank all the money and give her a distribution later, then so be it.  Just do it, otherwise you'll never see it again.  I did this when I divorced.  My ex- went berserk.  The total value of the money was less than $500 at the time as she'd already spent me into debt.  After 18 months of obstruction and delays, when we finally had a divorce trial, the incident didn't even get brought up.  It was so stale that nobody, including her, cared.

[Matt]

Interesting point, Waddams - maybe documented statements by both parties would be relevant to the date when they were "separated".

I think each state has laws that say when the financial separation begins.  In my state, it's usually the "date of service" - not when you file for divorce, but when the other party was served.  But in my case, the court changed that to the date we began to live apart, because of other details in the law I can't remember (or never understood).  Kind of like what Waddams is saying - specifics of the case determine when finances are separated.

Stuff for your lawyer to figure out... .

What you can be sure of is that it will be safer to have control of the money you earn.  Only if your lawyer advises you to give the other party money - maybe because you earn a lot more, for example - otherwise, keep what you earn til the court tells you otherwise.

[ugghh]

Sometimes it is just scary how wise the posters on this board are and just how really similar our paths really are.

So despite her assertion that my attorney will have the papers in hand on Friday, from comments from my older son, it appears that she is indeed at home still muddling through the paperwork.  In the meantime I had already compiled assets, debts and family expenses a week ago.

In the meantime she has continued her stream of threats and attempts to intimidate and isolate the sons.   The only positive is that she absolutely cannot restrain herself from email bombing and she continues to send off the wall accusations and threats.

So indeed tomorrow I will be calling the L to tell him that if he does not hear in the next 2 days that we should be ready to file before end of week, so as to start setting the schedule.  Keep it moving. 

Straight from the advice of those of you who have gone before me. Thank you.

[livednlearned]

In the meantime she has continued her stream of threats and attempts to intimidate and isolate the sons.   The only positive is that she absolutely cannot restrain herself from email bombing and she continues to send off the wall accusations and threats.

Not being able to restrain emotions while sitting in front of a computer is a big BPD Achilles heel. My ex was a trial attorney, and he has sent me over 10,000 rage-filled emails, and that gave my lawyer all kinds of material to work with. The part that really got me, though, is that when N/BPDx was representing himself in front of the judge, he would read HIS OWN emails as evidence. As though putting his accusations in email turned them into evidence.

I used to refer to N/BPDx as high-functioning BPD but after listening to him read his own emails in court, listening him read his own emails, I began to doubt that there was such a thing as high-functioning.

[maxen]

ten thousand?

[livednlearned]

ten thousand?

No exaggeration.

Bipolar and alcoholic.

[Matt]

Which gets to the question, what makes the best case - a ton of documentation or just enough?

My attorney told me - I had nowhere near 10,000 - maybe just a few dozen really crazy e-mails - she said to pick the 5 or 10 that showed most clearly the pattern I wanted the judge to see, and give her the rest just in case.  That worked - my attorney showed those few to the other attorney, and the other attorney then understood what she was dealing with, and began to cooperate.

But in LnL's case, I would think it would be very powerful, to have a huge stack of e-mails in court, and invite the judge to select any one at random, or to go through them however she chose to.  The sheer volume shows he has a serious problem.

[ForeverDad]

ten thousand?

No exaggeration.

Bipolar and alcoholic.

Let's see... .1 email per sheet... .500 sheets to a ream... .10 reams to a case... .that's two cases of emails.   Did you rent a handtruck for court?

I suspect my ex blocked me from her email account on the day we separated.  I've never gotten a response from my emails to her since then.  By the way, they were all carefully worded to include only the basic child care or divorce related information, I knew I couldn't reason with her.  That suited her since she had Rejected me, though she felt free to lambast me by phone, thinking there would be no consequences to what almost never gets into court.  And every time I told her I had emailed her, she always ranted that she didn't get them because she didn't have email.  Yet she had or has MySpace, FaceBook and even POF accounts.

She still uses the account, she listed it on school contact information as recently as this past August.

[livednlearned]

ten thousand?

No exaggeration.

Bipolar and alcoholic.

Let's see... .1 email per sheet... .500 sheets to a ream... .10 reams to a case... .that's two cases of emails.   Did you rent a handtruck for court?

I suspect my ex blocked me from her email account on the day we separated.  I've never gotten a response from my emails to her since then.  By the way, they were all carefully worded to include only the basic child care or divorce related information, I knew I couldn't reason with her.  That suited her since she had Rejected me, though she felt free to lambast me by phone, thinking there would be no consequences to what almost never gets into court.  And every time I told her I had emailed her, she always ranted that she didn't get them because she didn't have email.  Yet she had or has MySpace, FaceBook and even POF accounts.

She still uses the account, she listed it on school contact information as recently as this past August.

I got a lot of emails that just said "whore."

Also, nights when he sent 20-40. Topping out at 100+ during his psychotic episode.

[ForeverDad]

So indeed tomorrow I will be calling the L to tell him that if he does not hear in the next 2 days that we should be ready to file before end of week, so as to start setting the schedule.  Keep it moving.

Why the wait?  Is there anything in the next two days that you think would happen in your favor if you waited?

[Matt]

So indeed tomorrow I will be calling the L to tell him that if he does not hear in the next 2 days that we should be ready to file before end of week, so as to start setting the schedule.  Keep it moving.

Why the wait?  Is there anything in the next two days that you think would happen in your favor if you waited?

Usually it's better to be active than passive.  If you have decided the marriage can't be saved, get active and move forward.

[ugghh]

No reason for the delay other than I had needed a couple of days to pull the last of my information together.  I was a little bit afraid of what I would see when I went through my expenses and did the allocation to see how close what I thought was a reasonable allocation between her and I would be to our respective incomes.  Mainly her as there is some decent income disparity and I want to avoid the spousal support.

I sat down this morning and plowed through a good bit of it and it is not nearly as off from her income as I thought once I really dug into making the correct allocations.  I am also a bit of a perfectionist and want to make sure I can back every number I put down.  Thanks to my mom for reminding me of that, which got me moving again.

I also took off some time to look at a rental house this afternoon with a few more to follow shortly.

In the meantime she keeps digging herself a pretty decent hole.  She has forbidden the older son from driving the younger son to the relatives where I am staying and also took the time out to clear out all my clothes  in bags and put them out by the trash.   She was kind enough to email that she was doing so as well not be around as I took pictures of the pile before picking it up.

I email her once with short factual emails and she responds with 3 page long emotion filled emails.

I left the message for the attorney today that I want it moving before the end  of the week.  Keep the schedule going forward.

[livednlearned]

ugghh,


I'm just thinking here... .about how some BPD sufferers will fight for things that don't make sense, that they might not even want, which ends up costing a lot of money, only to have things revert to a pretty reasonable arrangement that didn't really need a big legal battle.

For example, custody. Matt, I'm thinking of your situation. You got 50/50 but the kids ended up spending more % time with you because the kids voted with their feet, and your ex seemed to almost prefer it. But it was important for her to fight for 50/50 in court, even though she let the reality work out to be much more in your favor.

ugghh, since your youngest child is 16, how do you think things will actually play out? Say you want 50/50 and she wants more. Will your son want to spend more than 50/50 with his mom? If he wants to spend extra nights with you, will he do so freely?

Just raising this issue because of your question about emancipation and what your stbxw might fight for re: custody. Because even if you have a custody agreement in place, with BPD sufferers, it doesn't really enforce anything. All it does is give you some leverage for filing a motion for contempt, and those can add up like parking tickets in family court. Expensive parking tickets.

In my case, N/BPDx fought like a bear about wanting custody of S12, but then when push came to shove, he rolled right over and gave up almost all of his visitation. The point for him was to have time in court to tell everyone how malicious I was, not to actually win custody.

I'd hate to see you spend a lot of money and experience the hell of a full-blown court battle. But it's a hard decision to make.  

[pallavirajsinghani]

Hello ugggg:  As always, my post is an advocacy for the children.

It appears to me that you are putting the children in an ambivalent position by telling them to suck it up to their mother and to keep peace by doing what they do not want to do.  They do not want to be around her.  Remember when a child wants legal emancipation, it is legal emancipation from BOTH the parents.  That alone is to me a clear indication that the child is now being guilt ridden to compensate his mother for your absence.

Instead, I would suggest that you do not put adult burdens on the children.  Be their protector.  Obtain counseling for them and for yourself for these are difficult times to navigate.  Emotions will be all over the place.  

The last thing you want is total FOG for the children.  Now that you are not there, this is very likely.  It would be better if you allow and encourage them to spend as much time away from her and with you as possible.  :)o not accuse her, do not defend her, do not justify her actions.  Just listen and support and reassure them that you are always there for them.  No JADING of your wife in front of children.  This gives them mixed messages ('It is all right for me to seek freedom from chaos, but not all right for you to seek temporary respite from it by wanting to spend some time with me.".  Seriously, your fight is as much for your sanity as for the childrens'.  You must do your utmost to prevent psychic/emotional damage to children.  No child should be put into a place where he/she has to parent the adult.  There are strong chances that your wife will gradually begin to guilt them into doing exactly that... .taking your place.

If you cannot afford counseling, see if any is available through the school or employee sponsored plans or even phone counseling will be good... .

Please forgive me for strong words.

[Matt]

Good thoughts from Palla, LnL and everyone... .

For example, custody. Matt, I'm thinking of your situation. You got 50/50 but the kids ended up spending more % time with you because the kids voted with their feet, and your ex seemed to almost prefer it. But it was important for her to fight for 50/50 in court, even though she let the reality work out to be much more in your favor.

Yeah, this is what happened, and it's what my attorney - who had experience with people with BPD - said would happen.

My ex went through the motions - cost us both a lot of money - trying to get "primary" custody.  But when the case was settled - we agreed to 50/50 - she pretty quickly showed that she didn't really want them even half the time.

Lots of ways she contributed to them spending more time with me;  for example, she moved to a place pretty far from their school and I moved to a place close to their school, and she doesn't have internet access or a good computer so they have to do lots of homework (etc.) at my place.

I did the opposite - made my home as good for the kids as possible so they feel good about being here.  When my kids have friends over - like my D17 has sleepovers with friends - it's always at my place not their mom's, for a bunch of reasons.

So "50/50" morphed into what I hoped for in the first place - primary residential custody - and they spend time with their mom regularly but pretty much on their terms - no more than they want to.  Works pretty well for everybody.

My kids were 8 and 10 when we separated, so they couldn't drive themselves or speak out up for themselves very well.  I think if they were older, like Ug's, things would have worked out even easier.

One thing to consider is how fast this case will go.  We all like to get the legal limbo over with;  if we could settle it in a week most of us would.

But... .if the kids are with you most of the time, it might be OK to let it be - don't rush the case - maybe even ask your lawyer what could be done to slow it down.  Lawyers are good at that!

Because... .when it finally gets in front of a judge, if the kids have been with you quite a while, and if they're doing OK, and if they want to stay with you, there's very little chance the judge will interfere with that.  She might order that each kid have time with Mom each week, but even that will be almost impossible to enforce (and not necessarily a bad thing anyway).

Along the lines of what Pallavirajsinghani is saying, you might want to read (but not post) on the "Coping With A BPD Parent" board here.  You'll find quite a few adults who were raised by a parent with BPD, who all say they wish the other parent had validated what they were experiencing, and let them spend time away from the BPD parent so they could be themselves.  And none who say, "I wish my Dad had made me spend more time with my BPD mom!".

One last thought - might be worth your time to read "Understanding The Borderline Mother" by Christine Lawson.  It's kind of expensive, but very good and thoroughly researched.  It will give you a lot of insight into how a BPD mom's behavior can impact the kids, and what you can do to help them.

[ugghh]

Update - with any luck I will be seeing the attorney tomorrow.  It is the middle of the night but my records needed to get this going are finally ready.  My family was kind to enough to offer help in the morning so that I could work late tonight.  Thanks again to all who have counseled to get this going.

Earlier tonight was rough - S18 stopped by for dinner and to watch a movie on TV.   He was not even here 2 hours and stbxw began the same crap with him that she used to do to me.  Texting, calling, etc.   He really didn't want to talk but she literally called eleven times in like 50 minutes and he finally just gave up. As I have shared before S18 is carrying the weight of trying to keep his mother from flying off the deep end during this process.  S16 has basically frozen the stbxw out, calling her out for trying to be super mom after 16 years of virtually nothing.  He is sleeping a lot to cope with it.

On a bit of a positive note I did get S18 to agree to attend one session of counseling.  Its a start.

[livednlearned]

On a bit of a positive note I did get S18 to agree to attend one session of counseling.  Its a start.

That's great! Feeling responsible for his mom is something he's going to need help with his whole life, and it might influence his relationship with significant others in the years ahead.

I used to think of my cell phone as a tracking device, that's how N/BPDx used it. If I didn't respond immediately, if my location didn't show up in Google latitude, I would come home to a wave of abuse and accusations. Makes me feel sad for your son that he has to experience the invasive texting. It's a lot for a kid to have to manage that.

[Matt]

Boundaries - he can decide, "I won't answer the phone unless it's a time I want to talk to her.", for example, and then learn how to maintain that boundary.  "Mom, if you call and I don't pick up, just leave a voice-mail, and I'll return your call when I can.  If you call more than once in a row, I feel like you're demanding that I pick up.  If that continues, I'll change my number so I can decide for myself when to pick up."  Might take a while for him to get to the point where he can maintain those boundaries with his mom - maybe counseling will help.

[Waddams]

Just wanted to say amen to what other posters are saying.  I'm sorry things are so difficult right now. 

Also wanted to add this thought - the boys are all older.  Even the youngest has a shot at being a legal adult by the time your case is totally resolved.  All the arguing about custody, control over kids, etc., it's likely to be a moot point because the boys at this point are perfectly capable of deciding for themselves where to live, or to even strike out on their own for the older ones.  So I'd recommend focusing on encouraging the boys independence from their mother, and otherwise trying to steer clear of custody issues.  Let her do what she's gonna do, and if/when you're in court arguing about things in front of a judge, just say the boys are old enough to basically vote with their feet.  Beyond that, they're grown up enough that they've got to learn to fend for themselves basically when it comes to dealing with their mother.  You can advise and support them emotionally as they establish healthy boundaries but it might be better in the long run to back away from more in depth involvement.

Instead focus on creating financial separation, and protecting your own personal financial assets as best you can.  You have your own rest of your life to protect as well.