Superior Court pleadings...

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

N/BPDx has been filing all kinds of motions against me. He was a trial attorney in a different area of expertise than family law and the judge finally mentioned that he, the judge, would file his own motion for gatekeeping to stop N/BPDx from filing motions. Every one of N/BPDx's motions has been denied.

Meanwhile, the judge has ordered N/BPDx to pay my legal expenses for these motions and hearings, as well as a motion for contempt. There are three sets of legal fees that he now owes. He has until the 26th of this month to pay the first round. The second round deadline just came and went today. My lawyer filed a motion for contempt about missing the deadline and notified N/BPDx.

N/BPDx wrote this:

I am preparing Superior Court pleadings and will, of course, provide service.

Not even sure what that means. My lawyer's associate wrote to say N/BPDx missed the filing deadline if he wanted to appeal, and that's only a technicality, because the appeal would go over like a lead balloon.

N/BPDx has both middle fingers up to the court, to me, to my lawyer.

[livednlearned]

N/BPDx has been filing all kinds of motions against me. He was a trial attorney in a different area of expertise than family law and the judge finally mentioned that he, the judge, would file his own motion for gatekeeping to stop N/BPDx from filing motions. Every one of N/BPDx's motions has been denied.

Meanwhile, the judge has ordered N/BPDx to pay my legal expenses for these motions and hearings, as well as a motion for contempt. There are three sets of legal fees that he now owes. He has until the 26th of this month to pay the first round. The second round deadline just came and went today. My lawyer filed a motion for contempt about missing the deadline and notified N/BPDx.

N/BPDx wrote this:

I am preparing Superior Court pleadings and will, of course, provide service.

Not even sure what that means. My lawyer's associate wrote to say N/BPDx missed the filing deadline if he wanted to appeal, and that's only a technicality, because the appeal would go over like a lead balloon.

N/BPDx has both middle fingers up to the court, to me, to my lawyer.

[newlymarried]

With your gatekeeping order, you x will soon face jail time. I wonder if he is willing to get to the point where he can face the possibility of getting disbarred. He can't hurt you anymore. You have a good life. Your son loves you. Your career is kicking all sorts of ass. Your man loves you. Your ex will end up in jail because they are court orders, not suggestions. You will be fine. Enjoy your holidays with your son and SO.

[marbleloser]

This is so textbook narc! Family law is a different game altogether. He won't be allowed to get away with making the judge mad. They kinda don't like that.

[livednlearned]

newlymarried and marbleloser, thank you for the positive words! I really needed to hear them. Sometimes I feel like the court room is my second home, and that just makes me feel like I'm doing something wrong.

I guess I never stop wanting to fix it all somehow and just make it go away.

[Waddams]

LnL - I'm sorry.  Hopefully the judge will give him the chance to experience a different lifestyle involving cell mates, watching your back in the shower, and 24-7 oversight of his every breath by jail guards that see him as lower than pond scum and are allowed to treat him accordingly. 

At this point, is he really anything more than white background noise like a TV channel that's gone out?  Well... .white noise that owes you a lot of money?  My point is that at this point, it's okay to start putting him out of your mind and putting better things in your mind.    Time to change the channel!

[livednlearned]

LnL - I'm sorry.  Hopefully the judge will give him the chance to experience a different lifestyle involving cell mates, watching your back in the shower, and 24-7 oversight of his every breath by jail guards that see him as lower than pond scum and are allowed to treat him accordingly. 

At this point, is he really anything more than white background noise like a TV channel that's gone out?  Well... .white noise that owes you a lot of money?  My point is that at this point, it's okay to start putting him out of your mind and putting better things in your mind.    Time to change the channel!

All of this is white background noise for the most part. But it's my son -- elevating the conflict in a way that influences him. If I ask the judge for N/BPDx's car in lieu of cash, then N/BPDx does not have a car, and S12 will want to know why. Same as if N/BPDx goes to jail.

It's the first time in a long time I've really wondered if it's worth it. As expensive as it is to collect the money, I would come out ahead because he owes more than it costs to collect. But walking away from the legal fees doesn't necessarily end the legal nightmare because N/BPDx is going to keep forging ahead. Collecting the money he owes is going to pay off debt. If I don't collect it, I stand to go in deeper debt with the next round that he fires up.

I'm managing ok, but it gets me down.

[newlymarried]

If/when your ex either goes to jail or gets disbarred; you have a wonderful teachable moment with your preteen son. You get to look at your son and say, your Dad made choices and with those choices are consequences. You tell your son how he had lots of chances to do it better and make good choices; but he chose to make things worse. I would say that having a boy on the precipice of adolescence seeing real adult consequences may help your son make good choices.

[Waddams]

Another thought just hit me while reading the last post.  I know you don't want to send him to jail because you don't want your son to see that happen to his dad.  And that's plenty understandable.  However, be careful of the example you set for you son in that it's also okay for a person to do what they need to for themselves and also (this is a big one for me personally) loving someone doesn't mean you have to let them hurt you.

Your ex-is not even trying to resolve anything.  He's just trying to cause more problems and hurt you any way he still can.  He's not fighting fair, he's just being mean spirited.  Sometimes, when you're being assaulted, you cannot run away.  The only way to stop the assault is to overcome the attacker with a stronger/better/smarter counter-assault because the attacker just will not stop and won't walk away.  You don't have continue to let him attack and hurt you.  It's okay to tell the judge you don't object to him being incarcerated, and then explain to your son that you don't like doing that to his dad, you hate having to do it, but the fact is the guy is only trying to hurt you more at this point and you are trying to stop it.  Him being your son's dad doesn't give him a free pass from consequences.

And I know you know all this.  Just trying to give you a little pep talk and remind you because it really is sounding like extreme consequences are going to be needed to deal with this.  When those consequences happen, you don't have to feel guilty.  You can empathize and sympathize with any reactions your son has, but you don't have to feel about it personally.

[Free One]

It's the first time in a long time I've really wondered if it's worth it. As expensive as it is to collect the money, I would come out ahead because he owes more than it costs to collect. But walking away from the legal fees doesn't necessarily end the legal nightmare because N/BPDx is going to keep forging ahead. Collecting the money he owes is going to pay off debt. If I don't collect it, I stand to go in deeper debt with the next round that he fires up.

I'm managing ok, but it gets me down.

It is worth it, because you are making progress. It has been slow, and there have been set backs, but it is progress. He has the judge's attention, and not in a good way. I think backing off now would only fuel the fire. This won't end if you leave it up to him. He will always find something to engage you with. Let the judge do his job now and deal with it.

[atcrossroads]

LnL -- so sorry!  All of your posts are so informative and inspiring to me, but I'm sorry you are STILL getting dragged through the crazyland of your npd/BPD husband.  "Superior Court Pleadings" -- it's hilarious how npd that does sound!  It's sad because in his mind, he must win, but he is destroying himself.

I tend to agree with the other posters -- don't give up, and he ends up in jail, you haven't put him there.  You are protecting yourself and his son.  I think your son is better off if he's not in his life anyway (I have no right to judge that though - a son needs his dad, I guess, even if off kilter).

Stay strong. 

[livednlearned]

LnL -- so sorry!  All of your posts are so informative and inspiring to me, but I'm sorry you are STILL getting dragged through the crazyland of your npd/BPD husband.  "Superior Court Pleadings" -- it's hilarious how npd that does sound!  It's sad because in his mind, he must win, but he is destroying himself.

I tend to agree with the other posters -- don't give up, and he ends up in jail, you haven't put him there.  You are protecting yourself and his son.  I think your son is better off if he's not in his life anyway (I have no right to judge that though - a son needs his dad, I guess, even if off kilter).

Stay strong. 

Thanks FreeOne and ACR.

I want it to be done. I'm so tired of it. Please someone throw me a pity party 

There was a moment during the custody hearing, when the judge said he had to pay my legal fees, I actually thought I might have the money by now. But I think he's going to fight this to the bitter end. Maybe I just need to get through the holidays when my tank tends to run low.

Bleh.

[livednlearned]

loving someone doesn't mean you have to let them hurt you.

This.

Thanks Waddams. Sometimes it's hard to remember this.

[ForeverDad]

You don't have continue to let him attack and hurt you.  It's okay to tell the judge you don't object to him being incarcerated, and then explain to your son that you don't like doing that to his dad, you hate having to do it, but the fact is the guy is only trying to hurt you more at this point and you are trying to stop it.  Him being your son's dad doesn't give him a free pass from consequences.

And I know you know all this.  Just trying to give you a little pep talk and remind you because it really is sounding like extreme consequences are going to be needed to deal with this.  When those consequences happen, you don't have to feel guilty.  You can empathize and sympathize with any reactions your son has, but you don't have to feel about it personally.

Let the judge be the 'bad guy'.  It's part of the judge's job, though not often enough it seems.  So tell the judge you will let the judge decide the level of consequences.  That way you don't have to be worry about being too nice to the ex, nor will you have to be bitter.  If ex does get consequences, it was only because you brought the issues to the judge's attention and asked the judge for appropriate action due to his purposeful noncompliance.

[livednlearned]

Let the judge be the 'bad guy'.  It's part of the judge's job, though not often enough it seems.  So tell the judge you will let the judge decide the level of consequences.  That way you don't have to be worry about being too nice to the ex, nor will you have to be bitter.  If ex does get consequences, it was only because you brought the issues to the judge's attention and asked the judge for appropriate action due to his purposeful noncompliance.

I'll have to ask my lawyer about that -- last time, she actually looked at me while talking to the judge and asked me if I wanted N/BPDx to go to jail. Awkward! I wasn't expecting the question, especially out there for all to hear, including N/BPDx. Since it's looking very likely that N/BPDx is going to middle finger his way through this, I'm going to tell her to work this out in a way where it's the judge's decision, not mine. Then I'll work on my feelings separately so I don't feel responsible.

[atcrossroads]

Let the judge be the 'bad guy'.  It's part of the judge's job, though not often enough it seems.  So tell the judge you will let the judge decide the level of consequences.  That way you don't have to be worry about being too nice to the ex, nor will you have to be bitter.  If ex does get consequences, it was only because you brought the issues to the judge's attention and asked the judge for appropriate action due to his purposeful noncompliance.

I'll have to ask my lawyer about that -- last time, she actually looked at me while talking to the judge and asked me if I wanted N/BPDx to go to jail. Awkward! I wasn't expecting the question, especially out there for all to hear, including N/BPDx. Since it's looking very likely that N/BPDx is going to middle finger his way through this, I'm going to tell her to work this out in a way where it's the judge's decision, not mine. Then I'll work on my feelings separately so I don't feel responsible.

I can't imagine if my attorney turned and asked me that -- what could you say but no?  It sounds like a good plan to talk it over with attorney and as FD says let the judge be the bad guy here.  Hang in there!  You are strong, LnL, and you do not deserve this treatment.  If he ends up with a night in jail, it's his doing, not yours.  Breathe!

[Matt]

This is a side issue, but I think your attorney did you a great disservice by asking you that in court - making you be the bad guy.  That's what you pay him for.  He could have consulted you about that in the hallway, but not in front of the judge and the other party.  I would suggest you work out with him what are the proper roles and how you want to be treated in front of others.

One way to deal with it diplomatically might have been, "My client needs Mr. LnL to meet his obligations and obey the court's orders.  If there are no consequences when he defies the court, we believe he will continue to do that.  We look to the court to decide what consequences are appropriate."  Kind of a non-answer - it's not your job to enforce the court's orders and there's no reason you should take that responsibility.

Some bigger issues... .focusing on S12... .

I agree that one way to talk with him about all this is to put it on the judge - "We were in court and the judge decided that since your dad hasn't paid what the judge ordered him to pay, he has to go to jail for a short time.  That's what happens - not very often - but when a judge makes a decision, and somebody doesn't comply with it, they can go to jail, so they will learn they have to follow the law and the judge's decisions."

I think having some conversation about this before the fact may be a good idea.  "Here's something that's coming up and I hope it doesn't happen but just in case it does, I want you to understand what it's all about."  If you can do that fairly and objectively, without too much spin, it may give him some context, so if it happens he'll be able to take it in stride.  "There is a possibility that the judge could rule that your dad has to go to jail, for a short time.  If that happens, he'll be OK - he won't enjoy it but he will be safe and it won't be for too long, and then when he gets out, he'll have to pay what the judge says."  Factual information about how things work and what could happen, and letting him know it's not the end of the world - it won't be far away and it won't be for long.  If it's true, you could say, "I've known people that went to jail for a short time and they didn't like it but they said it was safe and clean.  Even if that happens, your dad will be OK."

One more good reason to have your son in counseling if you can manage that.  This conversation could happen in the counselor's office, with her help.

One more aspect of this:  Boys see their dads in themselves;  :)ad is who I will be when I grow up.  Whether that's true or not - they think it's inevitable.  My older son really struggled with that because his biological father is an alcoholic who abandoned him, so I often heard "I'm nothing like my dad!" - denying what he was afraid might be true.  Your son is probably struggling with that too - whatever causes his dad to have these problems may be in him too.  A huge subject, and not easy to deal with, but maybe even if you can't find a counselor for him you can figure out a way to work through this issue with him, over time - "Your dad has some serious problems.  He's also very smart and capable in a lot of ways.  You're a separate person and there's no reason to think you have those same problems." or maybe something like that - some way to get the subject out in the open and see if S12 will talk about it, or at least let him know you are thinking about it too and you're not concerned... .

[livednlearned]

This is a side issue, but I think your attorney did you a great disservice by asking you that in court - making you be the bad guy.  That's what you pay him for.  He could have consulted you about that in the hallway, but not in front of the judge and the other party.  I would suggest you work out with him what are the proper roles and how you want to be treated in front of others.

I know. It was a big misstep on her part. She has been 90% excellent, but she does make mistakes, and that was one of them. If I had said yes to jail, that could put me in a far more dangerous situation. I think if he does go to jail, I'm in a dangerous position, especially if he is given time to report to jail, which sometimes happens, according to my L.

I agree that one way to talk with him about all this is to put it on the judge - "We were in court and the judge decided that since your dad hasn't paid what the judge ordered him to pay, he has to go to jail for a short time.  That's what happens - not very often - but when a judge makes a decision, and somebody doesn't comply with it, they can go to jail, so they will learn they have to follow the law and the judge's decisions."

I'm torn about this. S12 is struggling with peer stuff at school. On Friday he told me he hates his life, he has bad luck, nothing good ever happens to him. He came down with a fever/sore throat, so part of it was just feeling bad, but he is also hanging on by a thread socially. I made the decision last night to talk to a doctor about ADHD medication for him to see if that helps him with some of the impulsivity that I think is causing problems for him socially. Telling him that his dad might go to jail, without knowing if that's actually going to happen... .ugh. Middle school + ADHD + disordered dad + jail = hell.

One more good reason to have your son in counseling if you can manage that.  This conversation could happen in the counselor's office, with her help.

He's in counseling, so we're all set there.

One more aspect of this:  Boys see their dads in themselves;  :)ad is who I will be when I grow up.  Whether that's true or not - they think it's inevitable.  My older son really struggled with that because his biological father is an alcoholic who abandoned him, so I often heard "I'm nothing like my dad!" - denying what he was afraid might be true.  Your son is probably struggling with that too - whatever causes his dad to have these problems may be in him too.  A huge subject, and not easy to deal with, but maybe even if you can't find a counselor for him you can figure out a way to work through this issue with him, over time - "Your dad has some serious problems.  He's also very smart and capable in a lot of ways.  You're a separate person and there's no reason to think you have those same problems." or maybe something like that - some way to get the subject out in the open and see if S12 will talk about it, or at least let him know you are thinking about it too and you're not concerned... .

It's what I worry about most, Matt. Not just that S12 thinks he will grow up to be like his dad, but that he actually WILL grow up to be like his dad. Middle school isn't exactly prime time for displays of empathy, but I sometimes worry that being an only child of a NPD dad is going to make it hard for him to identify himself as a kind, caring, strong man who who can connect with other people. He already slips into victim mode pretty easily. He has a ton of empathy for animals, but I don't see it toward other people, but I don't know if that's just middle school. I can see that he's building a force field for himself emotionally, to survive middle school. He's getting -- I don't know quite how to describe it -- not unreachable, but sorta opaque, almost tricky. Like he's figured out how to shape shift.

In other words, if his dad goes to jail, it will be a bomb in his life. I can imagine having a talk with him like the one you describe, but I'm not sure it will have the desired effect.

[Matt]

Yeah, I think telling S12 that Dad might go to jail is iffy - if it was me I probably would, because my kids are older and I think would handle it OK.  But it's perfectly valid to hold off and deal with that later, when S12 is stronger and when you know what is really going to happen.

The danger if Ex is given time to report to jail - talk with your lawyer about this.  You're not the first person who has faced this specific issue, and the court deals with it all the time.  For example, your lawyer might speak up in court, or write a letter to the judge, stating that you have this concern, and asking that he go directly to jail, or that the court issue an immediate restraining order that he can't have any contact with you or S12 - maybe he has a few hours to go home and make a few calls, but not a week to create mischief.

That you have this concern - assuming it's based on stuff he has done or said - is a big factor in all this, and not unusual.  The court should hear this concern and the whole case should be handled on that basis - not a wild or unfair accusation, but a valid concern based on stuff that has happened in the past.  If the court issues a restraining order, even a mild one - ":)o not go to Ms. LnL's home or place of business without her written permission" for example - and if he violates it, then it will be super-clear he is dangerous and needs some serious consequences and treatment.

About S12's behavior, self-image, etc. - big red flag for a bunch of stuff.  Risk for early substance abuse which means risk for addiction and other stuff.  I wish there was an easy answer but if there is I don't have it.  I'm sure you're spending as much time as possible with him.  Finding positive adult male role models for him would be a big help but you can't get desperate for the right guy in your life on that basis.  Maybe a Big Brother?  Counseling is surely a big part of the answer but it won't work fast.

I think it's probably a mistake to look at S12 and see a latent NPD sufferer.  I don't think PDs are "inherited" genetically, and I don't think having an NPD dad "makes" someone have NPD (thought it surely doesn't help).

In my family, what I've seen is that a disorder in one generation can contribute to a disorder in the next generation, but not necessarily the same disorder.  My kids' maternal grandfather drank heavily (but may not have been an alcoholic) and their maternal grandmother died when their mom was little.  Their mother developed BPD but not a drinking problem.  My older son - her son - is a recovering addict with some underlying PDish issues but not BPD at all.  Each generation is screwed up but not in the same way.

So... .I understand your son is surely at some risk, but not necessarily for NPD.  Giving him all the care you can, with your own two hands and by getting help from whoever you can, is the best you can do.

Not to dwell on the substance aspect, but it's there... .you might want to consider strategies to reduce the risk that S12 will drink or whatever til he's older.  Consider not drinking at home, not having anything in the house, and not having S12 around others who abuse substances.  Ultimately you can't keep him from drinking forever, but if he doesn't drink til he's older that will reduce his risk of addiction a lot.

[Grey Kitty]

N/BPDx wrote this:

I am preparing Superior Court pleadings and will, of course, provide service.

Not even sure what that means.

It means he's trying to threaten you with something. Nothing more, nothing less.

Consider the threat idle. If he actually throws something else legal instead of making vague threats, your lawyer can help you figure out what to do with it.

Best of luck getting through this... .wish it weren't so slow!

[Free One]

One more aspect of this:  Boys see their dads in themselves;  :)ad is who I will be when I grow up.  Whether that's true or not - they think it's inevitable.  My older son really struggled with that because his biological father is an alcoholic who abandoned him, so I often heard "I'm nothing like my dad!" - denying what he was afraid might be true.  Your son is probably struggling with that too - whatever causes his dad to have these problems may be in him too.  A huge subject, and not easy to deal with, but maybe even if you can't find a counselor for him you can figure out a way to work through this issue with him, over time - "Your dad has some serious problems.  He's also very smart and capable in a lot of ways.  You're a separate person and there's no reason to think you have those same problems." or maybe something like that - some way to get the subject out in the open and see if S12 will talk about it, or at least let him know you are thinking about it too and you're not concerned... .

It's what I worry about most, Matt. Not just that S12 thinks he will grow up to be like his dad, but that he actually WILL grow up to be like his dad. Middle school isn't exactly prime time for displays of empathy, but I sometimes worry that being an only child of a NPD dad is going to make it hard for him to identify himself as a kind, caring, strong man who who can connect with other people. He already slips into victim mode pretty easily. He has a ton of empathy for animals, but I don't see it toward other people, but I don't know if that's just middle school. I can see that he's building a force field for himself emotionally, to survive middle school. He's getting -- I don't know quite how to describe it -- not unreachable, but sorta opaque, almost tricky. Like he's figured out how to shape shift.

In other words, if his dad goes to jail, it will be a bomb in his life. I can imagine having a talk with him like the one you describe, but I'm not sure it will have the desired effect.

I think as parents, we all struggle with the fear that our children will grow up to be disordered.

[Matt]

I think as parents, we all struggle with the fear that our children will grow up to be disordered.

Yeah, once you have experienced what it's like to have someone who has a psychological disorder in your life, and you have seen how psychological problems can impact kids, it's hard to forget, and hard to ignore when there are even small signs of problems - stuff that may be totally within the normal chaos of childhood and adolescence, but could also be an early warning sign of a big problem - we don't see it as normal (which it may be), we see it as maybe the beginning of a big problem (which it also may be).

So maybe we over-react, or maybe we keep it in perspective and we're better parents as a result.  I constantly wonder whether to deal with some issue, or let it be.  Usually it's probably best to let things be and see how it goes, but sometimes, especially when I'm alone with one of the kids, I go ahead and discuss whatever is going on - mine are 15 and 17, and smart, so I can have pretty adult conversations with them and let them make of it what they will... .

[livednlearned]

Thanks Free One and Matt. It's good to know that I'm not the only parent who worries about this. S12 has been opening up a lot the last couple of days. I've been reading Brene Brown's book Daring Greatly, and she talks about narcissism, why it seems to be getting worse. I had an "a ha" moment reading it, thinking about how to talk about narcissism more broadly, as a way to help give S12 some tools to deal with it in general, not just specifically with his dad. And middle school offers lots of opportunities to talk about what life is like when people lack empathy.

I checked the mail box today, and nothing from N/BPDx. Since the legal fees are due December 26, I'm assuming this means back to court. I told S12's counselor there was a possibility N/BPDx would choose jail over paying me, and that it could be rough for S12.  :'(

Either way, it's a losing situation.

[Free One]

I checked the mail box today, and nothing from N/BPDx. Since the legal fees are due December 26, I'm assuming this means back to court. I told S12's counselor there was a possibility N/BPDx would choose jail over paying me, and that it could be rough for S12.  :'(

Either way, it's a losing situation.

Yes it is, but it's not your fault. There is still so much value in the fact that you took a stand for yourself. So many valuable lessons for your son too.

  I know it's hard in your situation, but try to stay positive through the holidays. Sending you good thoughts and a virtual hug. 

[livednlearned]

I checked the mail box today, and nothing from N/BPDx. Since the legal fees are due December 26, I'm assuming this means back to court. I told S12's counselor there was a possibility N/BPDx would choose jail over paying me, and that it could be rough for S12.  :'(

Either way, it's a losing situation.

Yes it is, but it's not your fault. There is still so much value in the fact that you took a stand for yourself. So many valuable lessons for your son too.

  I know it's hard in your situation, but try to stay positive through the holidays. Sending you good thoughts and a virtual hug. 

I was feeling really low for the past three weeks or so. My son opened up to me last night and I realized my sadness has been having an effect on him. I always think I'm privately dealing with things, then find out I'm an open book. He has been wanting more privacy, so I started to give him more, plus gave him more autonomy, and that sort of adjusted the structure and routine of things in a way where he thought I wasn't present. He likes it when I come into his room to check on him, and wants me to sit down on his bed and just chatter on about things. Go figure. That, plus worrying about money and this legal fee fiasco, plus the holidays, our aging dog and her health issues, kind of created a gloomy atmosphere.

Connecting with S12 about things in a healthy way gave me a positive bump. We're going out tonight to spend time with friends and both of us are feeling like our old selves, so hopefully the spell is broken, at least through the holidays.

Thanks for the well wishes. I hope everyone here can enjoy the holidays         It sure feels peaceful living without conflict.

[ForeverDad]

Even the threat of jail might be a weak one.  The judge might try to preserve his job and order jail time for just a few days or only on weekends.

Or, just like with many of our settlements, at literally the last second your ex might pay up.

Really, I wouldn't worry too much over son's reaction.  He already knows it's a possibility, so it wouldn't be a total surprise.  What would be a surprise is that it's only over his dad not paying money and not his dad flipping out with some acting-out or abusive behaviors.

[livednlearned]

Even the threat of jail might be a weak one.  The judge might try to preserve his job and order jail time for just a few days or only on weekends.

Or, just like with many of our settlements, at literally the last second your ex might pay up.

Really, I wouldn't worry too much over son's reaction.  He already knows it's a possibility, so it wouldn't be a total surprise.  What would be a surprise is that it's only over his dad not paying money and not his dad flipping out with some acting-out or abusive behaviors.

He actually doesn't know about the possibility of jail. I do think N/BPDx talks about how justice has not been served, and he is a victim, and I am malicious, etc. The usual. But no mention of jail, is my guess.

You're probably right that N/BPDx will wait until the judge orders jail. I've asked my lawyer to roll it into the second hearing legal fees. He is now in contempt of court for two sets of legal fees so may as well take care of them together, even though the jail sentence would only be for the first set of legal fees.

S12 is ultra aware of his dad's anger issues. My dog is not doing well, the same one N/BPDx threw one night during a fight. The same one we both brought home together after getting married. The same one he helped train to hunt back a thousand years ago. I talked to S12 about the likelihood that we will have to put her down soon. The topic of N/BPDx being sad about that came up, and S12 said, "He is going to act angry no matter what you do, but he will only be really angry if you don't give him a chance to say good-bye."

That is sophisticated reasoning about BPD for a 12-year-old, imo. If I do have to put my dog down (gah!  :'() I may give N/BPDx the choice to say good-bye at the vet. Using my email skills that I learned here, of course. Professional, yes or no answer, respond by this time, otherwise no deal."

[Matt]

Even the threat of jail might be a weak one.  The judge might try to preserve his job and order jail time for just a few days or only on weekends.

This is a really good thought.

Where I live, judges sometimes do exactly that - you report to the county jail after work Friday and get out early Monday morning, and you're obligated to remain in the county, and just go to work and home during the week.  A 30-day sentence might mean 10 or 15 weekends.  I think it's for situations like this, where it's in everybody's interest for the individual to keep his job and keep paying his bills.

Might be worth checking out if that would be an option.  "Your Honor, we think it's important for Mr. Ex to experience consequences for defying the court order.  If the court decides that jail time is appropriate, we would support that sentence to be served on weekends, so Mr. Ex can keep his job and fulfill his financial obligations."

As far as the threat of jail being a weak one, I can say from personal experience, that if I was sentenced to, say, 10 days in jail, whether it was 10 consecutive days, or 5 weekends, that would be a very significant deterrent - anybody who has a life, career etc. would find that to be a very unpleasant experience.  You're in jail, maybe not with murderers, but with some really rough people.  It's boring, uncomfortable, humiliating, and scary.  The food is horrible.  You have no privacy, even when you go to the bathroom.  You're treated like dirt.  It makes you stop and think, "What do I have to do, so I'll never come back here again?".

Someone who isn't affected by it that way has some very serious issues, which probably would require more consequences, and treatment.  Even for that person, a short jail sentence, served consecutively or on weekends, would at least be a start.

[Matt]

Even the threat of jail might be a weak one.  The judge might try to preserve his job and order jail time for just a few days or only on weekends.

Or, just like with many of our settlements, at literally the last second your ex might pay up.

Really, I wouldn't worry too much over son's reaction.  He already knows it's a possibility, so it wouldn't be a total surprise.  What would be a surprise is that it's only over his dad not paying money and not his dad flipping out with some acting-out or abusive behaviors.

He actually doesn't know about the possibility of jail. I do think N/BPDx talks about how justice has not been served, and he is a victim, and I am malicious, etc. The usual. But no mention of jail, is my guess.

You're probably right that N/BPDx will wait until the judge orders jail. I've asked my lawyer to roll it into the second hearing legal fees. He is now in contempt of court for two sets of legal fees so may as well take care of them together, even though the jail sentence would only be for the first set of legal fees.

S12 is ultra aware of his dad's anger issues. My dog is not doing well, the same one N/BPDx threw one night during a fight. The same one we both brought home together after getting married. The same one he helped train to hunt back a thousand years ago. I talked to S12 about the likelihood that we will have to put her down soon. The topic of N/BPDx being sad about that came up, and S12 said, "He is going to act angry no matter what you do, but he will only be really angry if you don't give him a chance to say good-bye."

That is sophisticated reasoning about BPD for a 12-year-old, imo. If I do have to put my dog down (gah!  :'() I may give N/BPDx the choice to say good-bye at the vet. Using my email skills that I learned here, of course. Professional, yes or no answer, respond by this time, otherwise no deal."

There's a real positive side to all this... .

Your son is seeing you deal with a bunch of stuff - a difficult divorce, legal hassles, sick dog, etc.

He's seeing you sometimes sad or depressed.

He's hearing you talk about the issues and your feelings, and seeing you express those feelings nonverbally but in nondestructive ways - moping around a little but not getting drunk or eating a gallon of ice cream (I assume).

In short, he is seeing you deal with difficulty in a relatively healthy way - maybe some missteps but not lashing out at somebody else or engaging in destructive behavior.

Probably a very good experience for him - not fun but educational.

[livednlearned]

He's hearing you talk about the issues and your feelings, and seeing you express those feelings nonverbally but in nondestructive ways - moping around a little but not getting drunk or eating a gallon of ice cream (I assume).

In short, he is seeing you deal with difficulty in a relatively healthy way - maybe some missteps but not lashing out at somebody else or engaging in destructive behavior.

Probably a very good experience for him - not fun but educational.

Hahah, no gallon of ice cream, although I can do some serious damage with chocolate.

Yeah, S12 is dealing a lot better with his own feelings of frustration. Not sure if its maturity or therapy or being out of a high-conflict home -- actually, it's probably all three.

[livednlearned]

Email from N/BPDx:

5:48pm "What kind of person would deny her own child the love of his father on Christmas?"

6:22pm "Actually, what an interesting public post that would be."

6:58pm "LnL is about to become famous in Court of Appeals published opinions.  Funny how it all works out."

I am not too phased, although it bothers me that I feel guilty about S12 not seeing his dad on Christmas. N/BPDx never asked to see S12, and I never offered, although I did offer on Thanksgiving. S12 opened up to me about stuff going on at school, and he was doing really well after we talked, and I knew if he went to see his dad, there would be a set back.

S12 got an odd text message from his dad: "It's ok S12. I know where you are."

S12 asked me what that meant, and I didn't know. (Drunken texting, is my guess.)