A great deal of sadness

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

It is with a great deal of sadness that I am posting on here again.  Normally I post on the Staying Board, but my husband has gotten into a nasty habit of breaking down doors when he does like the 'house rules'.  Things like 'no violent behavior' and 'no swearing' and 'no conflict in front of our 2 yr old'.

This morning I gave him 3 options:

1.  Get help with me involved in the process.

2.  Get out in a finite period of time.

3.  I will get his father and brother involved to force him to take some action.

We're in Ontario.  My husband keeps telling me that I have to WRITE HIM A CHECK AND HE'S GONE.  I have calmly explained that it doesn't work that way.  He says that he cannot leave the house because he owns firearms and you cannot own firearms in an apartment in Ontario and he therefore cannot leave the house.  I must write him a check so that he can buy his own house.  He's clearly totally disconnected with reality.

I could file for a motion for exclusion possession of the house, but that seems pretty harsh.  Then again separate times call for desperate measures.

I have been firm on boundaries over the last 6 months, I have been honest about the consequences if he chose not to take action.  I am now ready.  I have spoken to a lawyer in the past and have a clear idea of what I need to do.

I hate absolutely every moment of this but its time.

[allibaba]

It is with a great deal of sadness that I am posting on here again.  Normally I post on the Staying Board, but my husband has gotten into a nasty habit of breaking down doors when he does like the 'house rules'.  Things like 'no violent behavior' and 'no swearing' and 'no conflict in front of our 2 yr old'.

This morning I gave him 3 options:

1.  Get help with me involved in the process.

2.  Get out in a finite period of time.

3.  I will get his father and brother involved to force him to take some action.

We're in Ontario.  My husband keeps telling me that I have to WRITE HIM A CHECK AND HE'S GONE.  I have calmly explained that it doesn't work that way.  He says that he cannot leave the house because he owns firearms and you cannot own firearms in an apartment in Ontario and he therefore cannot leave the house.  I must write him a check so that he can buy his own house.  He's clearly totally disconnected with reality.

I could file for a motion for exclusion possession of the house, but that seems pretty harsh.  Then again separate times call for desperate measures.

I have been firm on boundaries over the last 6 months, I have been honest about the consequences if he chose not to take action.  I am now ready.  I have spoken to a lawyer in the past and have a clear idea of what I need to do.

I hate absolutely every moment of this but its time.

[ForeverDad]

Sigh. :'(  You gotta do what you gotta do.  Keep up the boundaries.  Be prepared with Plans A, B, C, etc in case there's a huge extinction burst where he tries to intimidate you or force you to relent and appease.  Keep the emergency and police numbers handy.

He can temporarily leave the firearms behind (hmm, on second thought, not good especially over a long period of time since he then could feel he has a right to enter whenever he feels the urge and claim them).  I think the realistic options are to let his relatives take them or even consult with the police and see if they'll hold them in safekeeping.

Be safe, or as safe as you can be.  Be aware.  Beware.  Keep in touch with us, as well as your local supporters.

If the police do get involved then clearly you need to proceed with a protection order and even possession.  With a protection order he would be forced to surrender that sort of weaponry.  Sadly, with this disorder it's very likely you can't do things halfway.

[livednlearned]

It is a great deal of sadness when you finally decide to walk away. I was scared when I left, and didn't let myself feel the sadness until it hit me like a brick one day. It does get better, allibaba, but it's painful along the way and it goes slowly, step by step. People here are wonderful and really care, which made a big difference for me. Also, one thing I discovered going through a divorce with a pwBPD: you learn some amazing problem-solving skills. Lots of us can help you think through options when you think there is only choice A and nothing else.

I wish I had found the site and learned some of the tools on the Staying board before I divorced. Those skills will go a long way for you in the weeks, months, and unfortunately -- years ahead.

This is a time to have strong boundaries and to be assertive, to protect your interests and do what's best for your son. What I discovered is that BPD sufferers can create a lot of conflict in the legal system (which can be expensive) but their disorder makes them poor strategists and weak opponents. Unfortunately, lawyers will gladly work with weak opponents. Meaning, your battle may largely become a financial one.

As much as you can, treat the end of your marriage as the termination of a business contract. Save the emotional stuff for here and your therapist so you can move forward with your life -- he is likely going to dysregulate once he starts getting court documents and messages from lawyers. It happens, even for nons. It's an emotional process even for people who don't have BPD.

Anyway, just wanted give you a big   on the Family law board.

LnL

[allibaba]

Ha ha clearly I am stressed because there are a lot of mistypes in my post. 

Hopefully you all got my point!

Also in Ontario, you have to be living separately for at least 1 yr before you can file for divorce.  You can file immediately if there is abuse in the marriage (obviously there is)... .but I'm in no hurry.  Really I don't want this, but its the only way.

[momtara]

You know I have been following your journey with a lot of hope.  I think you gave it every chance you could, and I know you love him.  And it looks like you are still trying.  That's good - I don't want you to look back with regrets.

You two do have a son.  And firearms in the house.  And I think he threatens your dogs (or that could be someone else).  It is hard to live under those conditions.

My first concern is custody.  My husband told me that if we got divorced, he'd rarely see the kids and may have to move far away where it's cheaper.  But when I filed, he filed to get primary custody!  It was a legal move, but I spent months sweating it out, and even when we agreed in mediation for me to have most of the time, he kept threatening to take me to court to say I was withholding our kids.  Also, I had to worry about him being cruel to them anytime something in the divorce 'triggered' him.  So... .if he is willing to leave and not bother you, that's great, but don't get complacent - document things, tape record, etc.  Don't look so overeager to have your son in front of him, but also be smart and strategic about responding when he speaks of custody and visitation issues. 

Good luck dealing with all of this.  Maybe this moment will pass.  Haven't followed your story in the last 2 weeks because I got busy with some things, but I wi ll keep up to date. 

[livednlearned]

Ha ha clearly I am stressed because there are a lot of mistypes in my post. 

Hopefully you all got my point!

Also in Ontario, you have to be living separately for at least 1 yr before you can file for divorce.  You can file immediately if there is abuse in the marriage (obviously there is)... .but I'm in no hurry.  Really I don't want this, but its the only way.

A year of legal separation is also how it works where I live.

The actual filing of the divorce is just paper, it's not going to impact you much. The real stuff actually starts when you file for legal separation -- you'll do a temporary order for financial and custody. Temporary is code word for "permanent." That's when you begin to create a legal record for what the status quo is. Once you do that, the court tends to stick very conservatively to it, unless there is a big upset later down the line, like a substantive chance in circumstances.

Aim high so you can negotiate down to what's reasonable. He'll do the same.

[Matt]

Good feedback from everyone.  I hope it's helpful.

One thing that causes me a lot of concern is the violence.  Maybe it's only against doors so far, but damaging property sometimes leads to worse stuff, and of course you have a small child with you.  It might be best to first figure out how to end any risk of violence, and then go from there.  It may be hard to make good decisions under the stress of living with someone who acts like that.

I think sometimes when we're with someone who is violent, or damages property, or makes threats, we kind of get used to it, and that's something to be very aware of and to deal with as soon as possible.  Damaging property, in your home, with a small child around, is not OK or normal - don't let yourself believe that it's just how men are or that he can't help it - it's not OK and it could be a danger sign for worse stuff to come.  Figure out the right boundaries for you - stuff like "No violent behavior" is a very good start - and if you can put that into the form of, "If you do X I will do Y" - "If you do any violent act I will call the police" for example - that will take back some control of the situation.  It won't fix him - someone who would break a door probably has some serious problems you can't fix for him - but it may lead to a path to peace for you and your child.

Best wishes... .

[momtara]

Good post, Matt.

[livednlearned]

Good feedback from everyone.  I hope it's helpful.

One thing that causes me a lot of concern is the violence.  Maybe it's only against doors so far, but damaging property sometimes leads to worse stuff, and of course you have a small child with you.  It might be best to first figure out how to end any risk of violence, and then go from there.  It may be hard to make good decisions under the stress of living with someone who acts like that.

I think sometimes when we're with someone who is violent, or damages property, or makes threats, we kind of get used to it, and that's something to be very aware of and to deal with as soon as possible.  Damaging property, in your home, with a small child around, is not OK or normal - don't let yourself believe that it's just how men are or that he can't help it - it's not OK and it could be a danger sign for worse stuff to come.  Figure out the right boundaries for you - stuff like "No violent behavior" is a very good start - and if you can put that into the form of, "If you do X I will do Y" - "If you do any violent act I will call the police" for example - that will take back some control of the situation.  It won't fix him - someone who would break a door probably has some serious problems you can't fix for him - but it may lead to a path to peace for you and your child.

Best wishes... .

Good point! Allibaba, I think your ex might be violent in the same way mine was. If I remember correctly, he has not hit you with his fists? Some people call the kind of abuse I lived with "environmental abuse" because they use objects to hurt you instead of directly using fists. For some reason, I found it easier to tolerate that kind of abuse. My ex would throw things at me, lock me out of the house, slam the door in my face, break things. He once picked up my dog, who was trembling and trying to get close to me during a fight, and threw her against a wall.  :'(

If you have your ex removed from the house, make sure you have a good safety plan about what you'll do if he returns to the house. Change the locks. It's not fun planning for this stuff, but it's important you do it just in case. The legal process presses on vulnerabilities that can be challenging for us, much less for pwBPD. Those legal documents that come through the mail can be very triggering.

[maxen]

Those legal documents that come through the mail can be very triggering.

when i got the letter from my w's lawyer announcing that she had been retained my hands were shaking.

[livednlearned]

Those legal documents that come through the mail can be very triggering.

when i got the letter from my w's lawyer announcing that she had been retained my hands were shaking.

I started to feel sick to my stomach whenever I went to pick up my mail. When I first read the counter claim (what N/BPDx wrote after I filed for divorce), I felt like someone kicked me in the gut.

So that feeling times a thousand for people with BPD.

[Grey Kitty]

  Sorry to see you over here... .and don't have much to say; I count myself lucky not to know about the legal stuff.

I do agree that he is likely to react badly upon getting legal papers, whether immediately or soon later... .when you decide it is time for him to go, safety suggests doing it completely, including changing locks and whatever other legal approaches.

And don't leave the guns in the house--the police or a safe deposit box at a bank or anything else sounds like a better choice. In fact, keeping him from having access to them immediately sounds prudent--Just saw some statistics about how prevalent suicide by gun is here in the US.

Hang in there--this will be a long tough road, whether your H keeps going this direction or turns around.

 GK

[maxen]

Those legal documents that come through the mail can be very triggering.

when i got the letter from my w's lawyer announcing that she had been retained my hands were shaking.

I started to feel sick to my stomach whenever I went to pick up my mail. When I first read the counter claim (what N/BPDx wrote after I filed for divorce), I felt like someone kicked me in the gut.

So that feeling times a thousand for people with BPD.

you think? i served about a month ago, they accepted, got the verified answer, and not a peep from her, at least to me.

well pwBPD are individuals too. and i wasn't there when she was given the news, so i wouldn't know.

[allibaba]

I think sometimes when we're with someone who is violent, or damages property, or makes threats, we kind of get used to it, and that's something to be very aware of and to deal with as soon as possible.  Damaging property, in your home, with a small child around, is not OK or normal - don't let yourself believe that it's just how men are or that he can't help it - it's not OK and it could be a danger sign for worse stuff to come. 

Fortunately or unfortunately we are on 'the other side' of physical violence in our house.  It started subtly in 2010 and culminated in 2012 with one incident in 2013 where I experienced a brutal attack.  A little thing here... .a little thing there at first.

A couple bruises here... .a couple of bruises there.  I still have a bruise on my leg from where he threw something at me in March 2012 (yeah).  I put an absolutely stop to threats and anything physical towards me last Spring and we had one incident after that when I called the police on him. 

I actually spilled almost every detail of the last 3 years to a dear friend over the last 2 weeks.  The response was:  "My dear Alli, what do we have to do to make sure that you do not become a statistic."  And I was succinctly told that "having 9-1-1 on speed dial does not constitute an acceptable safety plan."  Huh. 

I spoke to the lawyer on Friday and she has suggested that I attempt to get him out of his own will over the holidays.  He's calmly and rationally explained that that is his choice... .he chooses divorce.  He does not want to get help.  Though there were several urgent voice mails from our doctors office stating that they have gotten him the appt with the specialist that he requested urgently.  This is likely the psychiatrist... .because all the details of specialist appts are normally left on the voicemail.  He's asked for them to not tell me what the appt is for. 

Being that this isn't my first rodeo - I have dug my heels in... .I have given my husband choice after choice over the last year to follow his own path to recovery.  No matter what mood he is in, I can speak my truth to him now.  I stopped enabling him back in the spring.  He's chosen where he is at now and at least for the last 4 days I am surprisingly at peace with it.  Not flippant 'I have to escape peace'... .like understanding from the bottom of soul that I have 'done everything possible' for him true peace.   

I'm in my early 30's and I have been in this relationship for 10 years.  I am a better person for what I have been through and I wouldn't trade this experience for anything.  Twisted though that sounds I had lessons to learn and I have stared every single one of them in the face and learned them... .the prize is that I am no longer afraid.

It is my birthday today... .and one year ago he threatened true physical violence against me on my birthday.  He kicked me out of the house in the worst snow storm of the year and wouldn't let me take our infant son with me.  I was absolutely terrified.  I remember that horrible horrible feeling in the gut of my stomach... .1 year later I am a peace.  I am so grateful.

He tried to tell me today that everything was going to be ok and that we would work things through and I told him that if he wanted to be part of our family he would have to move out and get help.  He proceeded to explain to me that all he needs is a job and that my lack of emotional support is the reason that he can't get it. 

I have a meeting again with the lawyer on the 7th.  He is staying downstairs for the time being.  If he so much as lays a single solitary finger on anything in this house or ever utters the tiniest of threats - I'll have him arrested.  I have well well well documented evidence against him.

Peace and happy holidays every one.       

[allibaba]

One thing that is really giving me strength is several close friends telling me that this isn't about me anymore - its about our son and removing him from this cycle.

Everytime I hear the song by A Great Big World & Christina Aguilera "Say Something" I am just reduced to complete sadness... .and I mope and my friends kick my @ss back into submission.  So here's to good friends... . 

A friend told me today:

Write down what you want in the next year.

Put it in an envelope and open it next year on my birthday.

Great advise.

[ForeverDad]

He's calmly and rationally explained that that is his choice... .he chooses divorce.  He does not want to get help... .

He proceeded to explain to me that all he needs is a job and that my lack of emotional support is the reason that he can't get it.

So it's your fault he's the way he is?   Of course you already know that's not true, this is pure blaming and blame-shifting, typical projection and/or transference.

Generally the risk of DV is reduced if you have more distance between you and more time apart.

[allibaba]

I have decided that I will pursue 100% custody of our son with the caveat that I WANT my husband to be part of his life... .but considering my husband's history of violence, I want maintain the option to pull the plug if I have to and I don't want to go back to court to do it.

I have a huge amount of evidence against my husband.  Photos, recordings, witnesses... .his own family members even... .people who love him... .I have called the police on him twice.  I told my husband this morning, I CAN LITERALLY SINK HIM and will go that route if I have to, but that for all of our sakes I would prefer something peaceful.  I will be fair but if his little toe so much as crosses the line (either with his behavior in the house or any accusations in court), I will unleash literal hell on his life and he will literally LOSE EVERYTHING.  His choice.

I'm not very nice.  HUH.  

[Matt]

Some things to consider:

* Find out how the court handles supervised visitation.  It's fairly common in these situations - the parent and child meet at the center, and the parent pays for someone to hang out with them, so he isn't alone with the child.  That usually is for some period, like six months or a year, while the parent proves he has his act together.

* Consider filing a motion for psych evals - that's what I did.  Both parents is best so it's not a presumption of anything, though your motive may be to get his results in front of the court.  Don't say anything that sounds like a presumption, except "There have been behavior problems as shown by Exhibits A through D." - don't say "I know he has BPD and I want to prove it!" - just a brief indication (with evidence) that there have been problems.  Don't say anything against taking an evaluation yourself.  Make sure the psych evals will be done by a psychologist - not a lawyer! - and make sure they will be based on objective testing like the MMPI-2, not just interviews - someone with a personality disorder can sometimes fool even a professional.

* You won't get a court to say, "You decide how much time Father will spend with Child - no need to come back to court."  Never happens that way.  But you might get the court to rule, "Father has psych issues as shown in Dr. Psychologist's report.  He will get therapy as recommended in the report.  Then after one year he can file a motion to reconsider custody."  If Father doesn't follow that order he probably won't get more time with Child, but if he seems to have his act together the court is likely to give him more time, and you probably won't want to fight it too hard, unless you have some solid evidence from that one-year period (not from before the court's ruling).

* Double-check to make sure your attorney has experience with similar cases - she should be able to tell you "war stories" that show she does.  Now would be the right time to make a change if she doesn't have the right experience.

* Make sure your attorney understands and accepts your objectives.  It's her job to help you achieve them.  If she seems to have a different agenda, make a change.

* Make a formal, written offer to settle, putting forth what you believe is best for the child, and why.  It should go from your attorney to the other party's attorney.  Do not discuss it with him without your attorney present.  Make it clear that it is valid for a specific time - could be two weeks, for example - and that you will be glad to have a counter-proposal from him - if he sends that you will read it carefully and respond to it in a timely way.  Do not negotiate directly with him, or allow your attorney to negotiate verbally - those are tactics which create more problems.  The negotiation should be through exchange of written proposals, or written offers around specific issues;  or a conference with both parties and their attorneys.  Make sure you are holding firm to what you believe is best, but compromising on things that aren't super-important.

* Plan for these negotiations to fail - they almost certainly will at first.  Plan to go forward toward trial.  Get a trial date set.  Work out a strategy with your attorney, and gather all the evidence you can, and organize it to support your proposal.

* When the trial date gets close - and probably not until then - the other side will want to negotiate, and they will be much more accepting of your proposal.  That's when most of these cases settle - "on the courthouse steps".  Mine settled the day before trial.  Expect that - it's caused by the other side finally accepting that if you go to trial you'll win and he'll look really bad.

* No threats - "You will lose everything!".  Does no good.  Let your formal proposal be your only statement on the matter, except in a four-way conference.

* Begin everything you say with a reference to what is best for your son:  "I believe it will be best for Son to have a stable, secure home, so I am proposing that he always sleep in my house, and see Father during the day."  "I believe the school Son attends is important, so it won't be best for him to live with Father in another school district."  etc.  It's not about you, it's not about your ex, it's about your Son, and that is the reason for everything you are proposing.

[allibaba]

Matt thanks for all the good thoughts.  I'm going to print them out.

I think that the threat of DV is basically gone now based on the dynamic of our relationship... .

Also, I live in a province where there is a zero tolerance policy on domestic violence.  Any provision of evidence to the police would result in a irrevocable peace bond which would limit him from seeing me or his son for a year or more. 

I have photos from the last violent attack where he clearly and badly assaulted me.  He would literally lose everything because conviction would result in him being unable to become a citizen in the country we are living in and he would lose his ability to parental rights as a result of it.  Its not just an idle threat.  The courts are extremely biased towards the victim of domestic violence here.

We are going to try to come up with an agreement between ourselves. He doesn't have much money for a lawyer and has said repeatedly that he just wants money and he'll leave.  Sadly he used to tell me all the time that he was just in our relationship for my financial support and I am beginning to think it was more than just a dysregulated statement.

He's told me approximately how much money that he thinks that he is due and he (at least for today) doesn't want any custody.

Our conclusion that we are ready for divorce is not as a result of some huge conflict but rather than culmination of two differences of opinion. 

Again this isn't my first rodeo -- so I am approaching everything with extreme caution -- ie he talks a lot and I listen

[Matt]

One option might be to hire a single attorney to help get this done - not to represent either of you but to act as mediator and to put everything in correct form.  Then file the agreement with the court so it will be solid.  My sister did that (in the US) and it saved a lot of money and worked out well.  (But her husband didn't have BPD.)

Be very careful about how you mention the DV documentation.  I had a similar situation - my ex was making things difficult - we used a psychologist as a mediator for several months and got nowhere.  Finally I said, "I have evidence that you have committed several crimes" and I listed them - "and if we need to go back to court all that evidence will have to be submitted to the court, and that won't be good for anyone.  So let's settle this right here today.  Or tomorrow I will have to go down that path."  She talked all around it for a while, but when our time was almost up she agreed to what I had proposed.  I think the dynamics might be the same for you - best to do it with a mediator present and think very carefully about how you say it - what the options are that you give your husband - and then say nothing more and let him choose.

[momtara]

Although it's hard to keep this from being acrimonious, try not to do anything that will make him resent you unnecessarily.  There will be resentment anyway, but try not to taunt him or anything like that.  There is still the chance that even if he can't see your son now, he may be able to see him unsupervised in a year, two years, etc.  Best to try not to give him anything that will make him more vengeful than usual.

I know you are still hurting from this and I'm sorry.  You tried so hard and gave so much love.  I think once you are out of this situation you will feel more relieved than you can imagine.  And still sad, but basically ok.

[ForeverDad]

Also, I live in a province where there is a zero tolerance policy on domestic violence.  Any provision of evidence to the police would result in a irrevocable peace bond which would limit him from seeing me or his son for a year or more. 

I have photos from the last violent attack where he clearly and badly assaulted me.  He would literally lose everything because conviction would result in him being unable to become a citizen in the country we are living in and he would lose his ability to parental rights as a result of it.  Its not just an idle threat.  The courts are extremely biased towards the victim of domestic violence here.

You are in a strong position for court action, yet you also face this internal quandary:

We are going to try to come up with an agreement between ourselves. He doesn't have much money for a lawyer and has said repeatedly that he just wants money and he'll leave.  Sadly he used to tell me all the time that he was just in our relationship for my financial support and I am beginning to think it was more than just a dysregulated statement.

He's told me approximately how much money that he thinks that he is due and he (at least for today) doesn't want any custody.

While I'm not heartless - pardon me for my blunt words here - I also worry about you trying to be too nice, too compassionate, too whatever.  This may be the single most likely time you can set limits to how much trouble he can cause you in the future.  Generally is is not productive to hide the truth, not without really good reason to do so.  If you just settle now and not reveal the DV I worry that he may return later to get the settlement weakened or undone and it would then be too late to get the past DV admitted and used to balance the judicial changes.

He wants a buyout yet has little or no leverage.  Why gift him that?

He doesn't want custody (now) - might even agree to it now - but might return and try for it later.  As in, "Send me more money or I'll reopen the custody matter.  I agreed to no custody but the court will reconsider my rights.  Since you never reported the DV before, it's too late to have it be considered as history against me."  I see that as a very problematic, something he could hold over your head for the next 10-12 years until the children are grown.

In summary, I  worry that your niceness and unwillingness to let him face his own consequences (for DV and for putting money above his children) will both financially hurt you and expose you to greater risk of custody issues in the future.  Sorry, without being in your shoes, that's how I see it.  Hopefully, objective.

[allibaba]

Thanks for all the great input.

Frankly I think being convicted would put my husband over the edge and there is less likelihood for our little boy to have a relationship with him... .that's why I am still somewhat protecting him from the legal system.  The legal system here is extremely harsh on these issues and I cannot imagine how traumatic it would be for our son to go a year without seeing his dad who is his entire world.

He made some questionable decisions this morning and is now packing his bags.  I have given him some money to tide him over.

We are going to use the same lawyer to file... .being mostly on the same page regarding all the issues xo

[Matt]

Frankly I think being convicted would put my husband over the edge and there is less likelihood for our little boy to have a relationship with him... .that's why I am still somewhat protecting him from the legal system.

"Convicted" means criminal charges.  It's probably too late for that, even if you wanted to go down that path.

Divorce cases are civil cases.  I think a key issue here is that if you don't bring the information into evidence, and things don't go well, you might not be able to bring it into evidence in the future.  Your lawyer will know how that works where you live - I'm not an attorney, and nobody here can give you legal advice.  Countries like the US, where things are mostly based on English law, probably do things similarly, but it's best to find out exactly how things work where you live.

Generally I think it's best to get relevant information out in the open - in the legal process, not on Facebook or other public places - not to hide relevant information from the court.  Maybe there is a way you can do that - make sure that any violence or threats that occurred are in the court record - without causing more drama than you want for the kids.

For example, you might put the information into evidence, and agree to a schedule for your son to be with each parent, but make it depend on both parents getting objective psych evaluations from a psychologist and following the psychologist's recommendations.  That's what I did - my wife was required by the court to get psychotherapy.  (My evaluation wasn't perfect but I was just supposed to keep seeing the counselor I was already seeing - no problem.)

Someone with a personality disorder isn't likely to get the help he needs - if he does, that will be the best thing for your son, but if he doesn't, then you will have a reason to ask the court to reduce the time he spends with your son, if that's what you think is best.  "I agreed to this schedule based on the requirement that we both follow the recommendations from Dr. Psychologist, but Mr. Baba hasn't done that, so I think it will be best for Son to spend less time with him - maybe supervised visits only."

The other approach - leaving the DV issues out of the court record - could backfire if things don't go well.  The court might not allow you to bring those issues up later.

[livednlearned]

Ugh, I really feel for you allibaba. This is the moment when the pot gets turned up to boiling and the only person who can adjust the temperature is you.

I can understand why you might think going gently on him will minimize conflict. Have you ever been able to minimize conflict with him though? It's very rational to think that your action will have a positive effect on his behavior, but in general, that tends not to happen when BPD is involved. If he is triggered by feelings of abandonment a year from now, two years from now, five years from now, he is not going to think: "Allibaba cut me a great deal so I'm not going to cause problems."

More likely, he is going to blow through his money and realize that if he wants more, he just needs to ask the court for more custody and the court may very well give it to him, plus an allowance provided by you.

This is a different rodeo than the one you've been through in your marriage. Legal doors close, and they get very, very difficult to open again.

You may want to ask your lawyer a set of questions that will help guide this for you:

1. What should I do to provide the greatest amount of protection to me financially for the long term?

2. What should I do to provide the greatest amount of protection to my son, in terms of custody, for the long term?

Those kinds of questions. Then, if you can, talk to a therapist who can help you look at all the information, all the options, all the decisions and questions, and then factor in BPD, plus your own thought patterns.

The time when you file, you are making decisions when you are most vulnerable. We've been there, and have been through the legal process, as well as watched to see how our BPD sufferers responded.

If P then Q does not work for our circumstances.

[allibaba]

Hi all,

I think that I am a little overwhelmed at the moment to really process all of this.

But I wanted to say that there is no statute of limitations on domestic violence in Ontario.  I could have him arrested and charged at any point in the upcoming future given that I have pictures of physical damage that he has done to me.  Its a brutal province for DV.

I still belief that he is mostly likely to get help outside the legal system (his family agrees) and that is the path that I will stay on.  He's made his choices and now he'll live with them.

My husband is not a particularly motivated man and I am not an unlimited well of resources.  He'll take his share of half and then move on to find his next victim.  He's not the kind of guy to keep coming back for more. 

[ForeverDad]

He'll take his share of half and then move on to find his next victim.

Did he have any prior children?  I'm just thinking that if he "moves on to find his next victim" then (1) he may have additional children from prior relationships and (2) there would be little or no documentation for his next relationship partner to find the history and know the risks, not just of his relationships but also whether they should even have children together.

However, you can only do so much and you can't expend yourself calculating every possible outcome or eventuality.  Just giving a seldom pondered benefit of documenting things.

[livednlearned]

I still belief that he is mostly likely to get help outside the legal system (his family agrees) and that is the path that I will stay on.  He's made his choices and now he'll live with them.

I just wanted to say that I understand this -- you know your H's unpredictably predictable behavior better than anyone, maybe even better than he knows it himself.

When N/BPDx had his psychotic episode (he told S12 he wanted to beat me with a baseball bat), I didn't file a restraining order, though that was the prevailing wisdom. Sometimes boundary setting is an art, not a science. Instead of an RO, N/BPDx's lawyer and my lawyer had N/BPDx agree that he wouldn't come to my property, would not go to S12's camp, would not go to my work place. I think an RO might've pushed him over the edge, although I'll never know.

When your L drafts the custody agreement or consent order, whatever you call it in Ontario, how do you feel about adding language that gives him one extra hurdle in case he decides down the road to change custody? For example, "Parties agree to this custody schedule. If Mr. Allibaba wishes to change custody he agrees to submit documentation that shows his commitment to treatment and therapy for his xyz behaviors."

Your H can always file to change custody, because that's his right, and this wouldn't override that right to ask for more visitation, but a judge can use that as an important data point in her ruling. "Mr. Allibaba, you agree in the consent order to show documentation demonstrating your commitment to getting treatment. The court would like to see that documentation."

Just a way to insert some future proofing to address the concerns Matt and FD are raising, without having to fire up the DV machine and potentially making things more unsafe for yourself.

[allibaba]

When your L drafts the custody agreement or consent order, whatever you call it in Ontario, how do you feel about adding language that gives him one extra hurdle in case he decides down the road to change custody? For example, "Parties agree to this custody schedule. If Mr. Allibaba wishes to change custody he agrees to submit documentation that shows his commitment to treatment and therapy for his xyz behaviors."

Your H can always file to change custody, because that's his right, and this wouldn't override that right to ask for more visitation, but a judge can use that as an important data point in her ruling. "Mr. Allibaba, you agree in the consent order to show documentation demonstrating your commitment to getting treatment. The court would like to see that documentation."

Just a way to insert some future proofing to address the concerns Matt and FD are raising, without having to fire up the DV machine and potentially making things more unsafe for yourself.

Livedandlearned that is really good stuff.  Thanks.

I went to a friend's mom's house for Christmas Eve and had a really lovely time. 

My husband called while we were there (to talk to son) I told husband where we were and he hung up on me. 

He then proceeded to type messages for almost an hour non-stop.  I glanced over them but didn't really read them, even hours later I haven't read them.  Mostly accusations about how the family is into wild drugs and wild sex.  Totally laughable stuff. 

For the first time in such a long time I felt at peace... .I was in a kind and caring family environment where everyone laughed until they were crying.  My friend's mom shared a few things about my husband that I didn't know.  For example, the man who doesn't drink -- is frequently spotted in a bar a town over DRINKING during the day.  My friend's mom asked me if he has been doing hard drugs because they say that his eyes are normally WILD and they weren't like that 2 yrs ago.  I think that the man that I know and love lives a life that I don't know about.

At the end of the messages, my husband said that he's not coming over for Christmas (I invited him for Christmas presents and breakfast because it would be good for our son who hasn't seen him in 2 days)... .I said ok... .that's your choice but you are still invited to be here from 9-12 tomorrow.

The exchanges today are good evidence of the 'behavioral' stuff that my husband has.

[allibaba]

He'll take his share of half and then move on to find his next victim.

Did he have any prior children?  I'm just thinking that if he "moves on to find his next victim" then (1) he may have additional children from prior relationships and (2) there would be little or no documentation for his next relationship partner to find the history and know the risks, not just of his relationships but also whether they should even have children together.

He has three daughters from his first marriage.  Unfortunately his ex-wife is a very mentally ill woman (I've had a psych eval myself and apparently have nothing to note in my profile).  When they did their pysch evals back in 2005, my husband had anxiety but nothing else, but her psych eval recommended long-term intensive treatment.  My husband was a good father to his children until she finally pushed him out of their lives with extreme parental alienation (4 yrs ago).  My husband knew that he could fight it, but he was exhausted.  Losing his daughters was one of the key things that threw him into mental illness (though it took a while to develop).  At this point, my husband is tired.  He's been battling this mental illness for a long time.  I may be surprised but I just don't think he's going to play a major role in our son's life.  I don't mean to sound harsh but I'm not concerned about the next girlfriend/ wife, I had full disclosure of what happened in his previous marriage and that did nothing to prevent my situation.  However, I will say that without the last 5 yrs, I'd be half the person that I am today.  As my mom always says God writes straight with crooked lines.