Moving Out - conflicting advice

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Okay I either need some reassurance or a smack upside the head. Asking for which from those here who have trod this path before.

Quick recap - 25 year marriage to uBPDw, high functioning, 3 kids D20, S18, S16.  After 18 months counseling, finally got my head on straight and told her I was done and wanted divorce.  She of course massively triggered and demanded that I move out under all kinds of usual threats, implied she would claim domestic violence, drag on for years, blah, blah.  In reality I had already planned my exit and left the same night I told her for family's house.  Oh my goodness the peace I am in.

D20 is at college but when home stays at family's house with me.  S16 spends 90% of nights with me, S18 is being massively manipulated by stbx and basically feels that if he leaves momster will kill herself.  Yeah I know, it's  not his responsibility but he is still a kid and loves his mom and trying to help how he can.  Good news is that I have gotten to agree to a couple counseling sessions which I hope will start him down the path to understanding.

My dilemma is somewhat self created.  I also post some on the situation on more straightforward dads divorce forum and over there I am basically being told that I am shooting myself in the foot by moving out.  Of course some of the posters are pretty militant about basically following the same formula for every divorce, essentially fighting every step of the way for leverage, especially critical of leaving the marital residence.  Which leads me to question myself - sigh the self doubt returns... .

I come here because I trust the posters here, such as Matt and LivedNLearned that have been down this path already.  Based on what I feel is a pretty good knowledge gathered here and from reading Splitting by Bill Eddy, etc.  my general thought was that staying in house exposes me to much more risk from false accusations, verbal abuse, button pushing causing bad reaction on my part.  Stbx is a teacher and both sons attend school district where she teaches as a perk of her being employed there.   Of course, her latest tactic is pulling the threat to quit and move out of state.   

I decided best way to combat this garbage was to rent a house in the school district, which allows sons to finish high school whether she works there or not.  It gives both me and them a safe haven to be away from her and begin the recovery process.  S16 is definitely on board and excited about the move.  S18 is still trying to broker peace and is also carrying load of guilt from stbx.  He basically fears that if he leaves her, she will follow through on her implied and vocalized threats of self harm.  Again I am working on this and have counselor starting to work with him.

So tell me BPD family - am I a fool for moving out or is this really an ok action given the challenges we Nons face?

As always, many thanks.                                                                                                         

[ugghh]

Okay I either need some reassurance or a smack upside the head. Asking for which from those here who have trod this path before.

Quick recap - 25 year marriage to uBPDw, high functioning, 3 kids D20, S18, S16.  After 18 months counseling, finally got my head on straight and told her I was done and wanted divorce.  She of course massively triggered and demanded that I move out under all kinds of usual threats, implied she would claim domestic violence, drag on for years, blah, blah.  In reality I had already planned my exit and left the same night I told her for family's house.  Oh my goodness the peace I am in.

D20 is at college but when home stays at family's house with me.  S16 spends 90% of nights with me, S18 is being massively manipulated by stbx and basically feels that if he leaves momster will kill herself.  Yeah I know, it's  not his responsibility but he is still a kid and loves his mom and trying to help how he can.  Good news is that I have gotten to agree to a couple counseling sessions which I hope will start him down the path to understanding.

My dilemma is somewhat self created.  I also post some on the situation on more straightforward dads divorce forum and over there I am basically being told that I am shooting myself in the foot by moving out.  Of course some of the posters are pretty militant about basically following the same formula for every divorce, essentially fighting every step of the way for leverage, especially critical of leaving the marital residence.  Which leads me to question myself - sigh the self doubt returns... .

I come here because I trust the posters here, such as Matt and LivedNLearned that have been down this path already.  Based on what I feel is a pretty good knowledge gathered here and from reading Splitting by Bill Eddy, etc.  my general thought was that staying in house exposes me to much more risk from false accusations, verbal abuse, button pushing causing bad reaction on my part.  Stbx is a teacher and both sons attend school district where she teaches as a perk of her being employed there.   Of course, her latest tactic is pulling the threat to quit and move out of state.   

I decided best way to combat this garbage was to rent a house in the school district, which allows sons to finish high school whether she works there or not.  It gives both me and them a safe haven to be away from her and begin the recovery process.  S16 is definitely on board and excited about the move.  S18 is still trying to broker peace and is also carrying load of guilt from stbx.  He basically fears that if he leaves her, she will follow through on her implied and vocalized threats of self harm.  Again I am working on this and have counselor starting to work with him.

So tell me BPD family - am I a fool for moving out or is this really an ok action given the challenges we Nons face?

As always, many thanks.                                                                                                         

[ForeverDad]

I also post some on the situation on more straightforward dads divorce forum and over there I am basically being told that I am shooting myself in the foot by moving out... .essentially to fight every step of the way for leverage, especially critical of leaving the marital residence.  The primary reason to not move out if possible is to secure better outcome in custody and parenting time, not a big issue in your case since the children are older or adults.  A secondary reason is so you can have more input in the fate of the marital home, in case you wanted it or she would be unable to pay you the equity or pay for her residence there.

I decided best way to combat this garbage was to rent a house in the school district, which allows sons to finish high school whether she works there or not.  It gives both me and them a safe haven to be away from her and begin the recovery process.  Smart move.

Stbx is a teacher and both sons attend school district where she teaches as a perk of her being employed there.   Of course, her latest tactic is pulling the threat to quit and move out of state.  So let her.  Distance might be a good thing, though whether she would get one or more of the children to follow her might be a concern.  It's her choice, she's an adult, you shouldn't try to 'control' her or her decisions about her own life.

S18 is still trying to broker peace and is also carrying load of guilt from stbx.  He basically fears that if he leaves her, she will follow through on her implied and vocalized threats of self harm.  This is what counseling is for, he needs experienced and independent (objective) counseling to help him see how unhealthy it is to be unfairly guilted to aid another person, even a parent, in distorted, manipulative and controlling behaviors.  However, it won't be easy nor a quick fix, he has a lifetime of learned coping behaviors and her emotional pull to keep undermining dry reason and simple facts.  He need to learn how to establish his own conclusions from facts and not guilt, emotions, manipulations, past learned behaviors or whatever.  It will be hard for him to learn to make his own conclusions of reality and stick to them as a rock in a storm and not as a leaf in the wind.

[ugghh]

ForeverDad,

Thanks for the feedback.  Forgive my lack of specific mention you are also one of the frequent posters whose advice I tend to respect.

I have talked to my L and we have kind of a near term plan and intermediate term plan to begin forcing her hand on the finances.  On the marital home I do not want it and for now I can cover mortgage.

I am hopeful that S18 will see that counseling is helpful and begin establishing those boundaries much earlier than the 25 years it took me.

[marbleloser]

Another thing,as opposed to custody since your kids are older, if you move out you may be forced to pay the mortgage while she continues to live in the marital home.Not only the mortgage,but utilities,upkeep,etc.,, You don't want to be in that position and having to pay legal fees and a place to live for yourself. It's easier to move out,but not a wise move.

[broken3]

ugghh,

Some here have been in the same situation.

I have been on both sides of the fence. While I was not in the home. There were no bills paid, heat shut off, home was filthy, kids did not get to school, giving away family dog etc.

Yet anything that was done for good or positive for the kids was fought.

We are talking alienation, school IEP,  therapy blocks etc. That would concern me as she would have majority time.

Once you establish primary custody, even without an order of the court. It is very hard to back track.

It is fine that you don't want the home. But does your STBXW ?

You may be forced to make the payments on the mortgage even while you do not live there in order to " maintain the lifestyle".

[ForeverDad]

During my divorce my ex got most of what she wanted by not communicating (crickets) and not complying.  How this would apply in your case... .Imagine she stops paying (or stops paying her portion of) the mortgage, real estate taxes, insurance or utility bills, your impulse might be to jump in and pay so there are no credit/foreclosure consequences (except the financial hit to you).  That's your downside.  Court may ignore your gallant or nice efforts.  It's possible you may not get that money back even in the financial reconciliations at the end of the divorce case.

Two options before you:

• She refinances the house in her name only.  You would have to provide her a quit claim deed if your name is on the deed.  However, that quit claim deed is your leverage for compliance so don't just hand it over.  Hold it in safekeeping during the divorce and only turn it over when (1) the marital equity details have been finalized and (2) the mortgage is actually being refinanced.  You don't want to sign away your ownership and then have her stop the refinance, leaving you tied to the current mortgage.



• The house is sold.  If neither parent can afford the payments alone or if neither wants the house, then it must be sold.  Your obligations to the home really does end once sold.  However, ex can find many ways to delay, obstruct or sabotage the process.  Don't let ex set the pace or have unilateral decision making in the sale.

[Matt]

Good thoughts from everybody - I don't have much to add.  There are definitely advantages and disadvantages to moving out... .

Another thing,as opposed to custody since your kids are older, if you move out you may be forced to pay the mortgage while she continues to live in the marital home.Not only the mortgage,but utilities,upkeep,etc.,, You don't want to be in that position and having to pay legal fees and a place to live for yourself. It's easier to move out,but not a wise move.

Yeah, these are the disadvantages of moving out.

I moved out.  Well not exactly... . we both went to jail for one night, after my wife physically attacked me, and then called 911 and pretty much accused me of attempted murder.  When we were released, her "conditions of release", set by the judge, said she could go home, but mine said I couldn't - I had to stay off the property til the case was settled.

So I rented a place a few blocks away, and ended up living there for a few years.  My kids were 8 and 10.  It made me mad that I had paid for the house, paid every dollar of the mortgage for ten years, and was still paying it, but wasn't living there.  And at the time, housing values were dropping fast, so I was losing more money from falling prices than the cost of the mortgage.

A reasonable solution would have been for my wife to move out too - the house was way bigger than she needed - so we could have sold it and split the profit.  But of course that didn't happen.  It took about a year for the judge to tell her to move out, and by that time the remaining equity was only enough to pay off both lawyers.  Every penny we had was gone, to lawyers, psychologists, etc.

But... . by living in my own place, I minimized the risk of more accusations.  I didn't go back to jail, which was a pretty big thing.  And I was able to provide a safe, quiet home for the kids, which was a pretty big deal too.  My blood pressure went down a lot.

If I had it to do over again, I would still have stayed out, even after the court allowed me to move back (a few weeks after the meltdown).  But I would focused more on getting my wife out of the house - getting the court to order her out sooner - so we could sell it sooner and for a much higher price.  But really, that's a smaller factor than your safety, and having a safe and quiet place for you and the kids.

The advice you're getting at the other forum is probably pretty good for most men in these situations, but not so good if your wife has a personality disorder and there is risk of false accusations.  Who lives in the house is a much smaller issue than staying out of jail and minimizing the chaos in your life.

[whirlpoollife]

I had filed for divorce. I told my then L, that I wanted to leave. I didn't care about the house just kids and dogs. She said stay on account that I have record of the money I put in the house and journals of his behavior etc.  She didn't want me to loose my share of it by leaving.  x2bh, did not move out till five months later, court ordered.  That was five months of hell. I paid the mortgage and utilities.  I still do. The argument of that is that I would have to pay rent anyhow to wherever I lived so since I am the one in the house I have to pay the mortgage.  Maybe that argument could be used for you.

When the divorce is finally settled h will get at least 50% to 60% of the house because it is a marital asset. 

Since a year ago I have a different L. Maybe he would have of done things different.  I had some money from life insurance from my mom that I could of used to rent or buy a house for me instead of staying and paying this mortgage.  IF h did not have so much control of the kids, and IF I had the guts, I would have left and not give a darn what money I would have lost on the house. 

[livednlearned]

It's hard to get conflicting advice when you're reeling from years of abuse, and finally feel some peace. You're ready for things to be clear! But you aren't a straightforward divorcing dad, ugghh. I think you're absolutely doing the right thing because like Matt said, a personality disorder changes the game. She threatened to claim false allegations of DV  . Normal divorcing couples don't deal with that at the rate that happens with BPD. You put safety first and that's more important than anything else. Fighting a false DV charge while going through a divorce is not something you want to be doing during these blissful early days of freedom.

You may get sucker punched financially, including the downsides that Marbleloser mentioned. That's why you want every sentence in your legal documentation to be followed by a consequence. She won't comply, and the courts will take forever to work it out, but you'll at least have leverage in her consent. You are giving the court something to work with because judges would rather have people consent than rule on differences. Once your x consents to xyz, the consequences for not doing xyz should be crystal clear. The court will find it much easier to mete out consequences that she has agreed to.

If there is a way to get out of these marriages in a straightforward way, please someone tell me. I shouldn't have been surprised, but I am -- how giving N/BPDx the house should take over two years and two motions for contempt. Now I'm pursuing him for the legal fees it cost me to basically give him the house. I'm convinced that if I won the lottery and gave him money, he would figure out a way to make me suffer for it.

[Matt]

She threatened to claim false allegations of DV  .

Yeah, this is the big thing to remember:  Making a threat like that is not something that any reasonably healthy person would do.  And whatever you call the factor that makes it possible for someone to make a threat like that - whether it's BPD or something else - it's still there, and will be.

My understanding - gained by dealing with my wife for many years, before and after she was diagnosed - is that when she got upset, she felt the need to strike out and hurt me somehow.  For years that was verbal abuse and accusations.  Then she crossed over into threats of violence, and then violence - I don't think she ever intended to hurt me, but she was out of control.  Then - worst of all - when that didn't get me to comply with her demands and magically make her happy, she went further, and made false accusations of DV.  I would rather be hit over the head with a frying pan, than accused of DV.

So... . you have to make all you decisions with that as your main focus - how to avoid false accusations.  If that happens - if she tells the police that you hurt her or threatened her - even if there is no evidence, or the evidence shows you did nothing wrong - you will wish you had been more careful.

[broken3]

One more thing.

If you are in control of the primary residence. And their are visitation and exchanges required. Whether it be kids or for items.

You are less likely to be charged with any false DV claim against you due to the fact that pickup and drop-offs for visitation and for gathering any possessions the other party demands will be in a controlled environment and the other party has free will to leave.

I just stay inside. Do not open door. I do not invite in.

I sometimes feel that I am dealing with a terrorist. Sorry that may be extreme. But I have also been asked to do favors to drop kids off at her new home. And then when medication or school stuff was asked to be left out by me. And they were not.

I was at her mercy.

I don't even attempt to get out of the car anymore.

I.E. dont ever come to my home again, why are you stalking me, I am afraid?

What?  Even if I never said one word!

I find it soo much easier when I have the right to say when you can and cannot come and go and I sleep alot better at night.

Before I had custody and the house. I felt like I was walking into an ambush.Literally never knowing if the police would be calling or stopping by to say that i said or did something that was totally fabricated.

That is how sick and delusional it can and did get in my case. Had I not documented, recorded, journaled, proved everything I said and did and protect not only myself but the kids. I probably would be in jail, jobless, my kids on the street and still being blamed for their demise.

[Matt]

One more thing.

If you are in control of the primary residence. And their are visitation and exchanges required. Whether it be kids or for items.

You are less likely to be charged with any false DV claim against you due to the fact that pickup and drop-offs for visitation and for gathering any possessions the other party demands will be in a controlled environment and the other party has free will to leave.

I just stay inside. Do not open door. I do not invite in.

I sometimes feel that I am dealing with a terrorist. Sorry that may be extreme. But I have also been asked to do favors to drop kids off at her new home. And then when medication or school stuff was asked to be left out by me. And they were not.

I was at her mercy.

I don't even attempt to get out of the car anymore.

I.E. dont ever come to my home again, why are you stalking me, I am afraid?

What?  Even if I never said one word!

I find it soo much easier when I have the right to say when you can and cannot come and go and I sleep alot better at night.

Before I had custody and the house. I felt like I was walking into an ambush.Literally never knowing if the police would be calling or stopping by to say that i said or did something that was totally fabricated.

That is how sick and delusional it can and did get in my case. Had I not documented, recorded, journaled, proved everything I said and did and protect not only myself but the kids. I probably would be in jail, jobless, my kids on the street and still being blamed for their demise.

The way I dealt with that - after being falsely accused - was that I offered to do all the driving.  Ultimately that was put into our settlement and approved by the court - I do all the dropping off and picking up.

The result is that there is no reason for my ex to ever be in my neighborhood - not just inside my home but anywhere near here.

I take the kids and they take their stuff into her home.  If she ever came out and walked toward my car, I could drive away.  I never go in her home and never have her in my home.  Virtually no direct contact, except at school events where there are non-family adults around.

[broken3]

Matt,

IMHO i have been through several PFA's. A few of them I was never even present.

I always try (if I am the one who is court ordered for pickup or dropoff) to stay a half a block away. Distance= security.

Since i live in a very rural area. It is much safer to have her come here where I can determine what the outcome should be.

What's to stop her from saying you threatened her from your car? Can you prove you did not? That is what I have had to deal with.

[Matt]

What's to stop her from saying you threatened her from your car? Can you prove you did not?

Ultimately, there's no foolproof way to prevent someone from making false accusations.  I thought about it, and talked with my criminal defense attorney, and came up with what I thought would work best, and it's worked well, but something different could work better for others - no guarantees that I know of.

My thought process was, when we had problems, it happened pretty fast, but not instantly - she got upset over something, or maybe over nothing, and then within a few minutes she lost control completely.

But... . never when I wasn't around - never remotely.  So - I reasoned - if I'm not in the same room with her, without a non-family adult third party present, the risk is low - not zero but low.

This was the advice from my criminal defense attorney.  He said, "If you are going to be around her, even once in a while, without a non-family adult third party present, then get yourself a different lawyer, because I don't want to deal with the results of that choice."  The voice of experience - he dealt with this stuff all the time, and had good insight.

But exactly how to execute that advice could be different depending on your situation.  Some people find a neutral public place, like McDonalds or the police station, to be best.

[ugghh]

Thanks as always to all the posters. I have decided to keep moving forward with plan to move out.  The house is leased and youngest, S16 is excited to move in and be close to friends and school.  Made good progress with S18 who went to counseling and even agreed to another session!

Stbx made decision easy.  She continues her pattern of emailing me, to which I reply and then she replies by saying that my email is harassing to her. She has totally split me black , and is in full projection mode, going to great lengths to explain how damaging I am to the kids.   Right, that is why they want to live with me.