Need help whether to move out or stay

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

My wife keeps threatening me of calling the police and making false accusation from D.V to anything you can think of, that I won’t be able to see my kids, that she will milk me for child support and alimony. And that I won’t have any money left for myself and I’ll be living on the street…   this is been going on for years …. We don’t own any property except two car loans, and bank accounts. The apt lease is under her name… (the reason the apt being under her name is that 6 months ago, she filed for divorce for the 3rd time and gave me ultimatums that if I don’t give in to all her demands, she’ll peruse the divorce. I gave in to her demands and we never changed the apt  lease) Later  I found that she never canceled the 2nd time she filed for divorce(she only changed it to separation), and were collecting SSI for our child and that we might have to pay it all back. I don’t want to talk too much about the incidents as my main focus on this is whether to move out or not.

I told her that I have been studying, D.V, personality disorders, talked layers, been keeping a journal  of every incident that have been occurring… Now she says, she doesn’t want a divorce but just want to live as roommates... yet still tell me the same things, threats when  she rages and being emotionally and verbally abusive… so far I been in L5 board.

To give you a background, we been married for five years and have two kids, a three-year- old and a four year old… our younger child is born with Down Syndrome.

I recently found out about BPD and I think she is suffering from it. I mentioned this to her, I been seeing some PD in her behaviors in the last five years of our marriage and it backfired.  I been able to control it by validating etc…... find it very hard, tiring… I took off work during holidays to spend time with family and ending up sleeping on the couch, ended being really sick, right now…

I talked to a criminal attorney, told him what’s going on and how to protect myself and he suggested I move out of the apartment. I live in California. If I move out, can it be used against me as abandoning my kids, if so how? I feel like I have been waiting to be jailed falsely.  I am torn apart deciding what’s best. One more thing to add is that I am the primary provider in our apt, she works part time.  Any advice is appreciated. Keeping a journal of every incident is so tiring…

I am thinking of talking to a Therapist myself, do you think that would be helpful at all? Thank you…

[bpdsupport]

My wife keeps threatening me of calling the police and making false accusation from D.V to anything you can think of, that I won’t be able to see my kids, that she will milk me for child support and alimony. And that I won’t have any money left for myself and I’ll be living on the street…   this is been going on for years …. We don’t own any property except two car loans, and bank accounts. The apt lease is under her name… (the reason the apt being under her name is that 6 months ago, she filed for divorce for the 3rd time and gave me ultimatums that if I don’t give in to all her demands, she’ll peruse the divorce. I gave in to her demands and we never changed the apt  lease) Later  I found that she never canceled the 2nd time she filed for divorce(she only changed it to separation), and were collecting SSI for our child and that we might have to pay it all back. I don’t want to talk too much about the incidents as my main focus on this is whether to move out or not.

I told her that I have been studying, D.V, personality disorders, talked layers, been keeping a journal  of every incident that have been occurring… Now she says, she doesn’t want a divorce but just want to live as roommates... yet still tell me the same things, threats when  she rages and being emotionally and verbally abusive… so far I been in L5 board.

To give you a background, we been married for five years and have two kids, a three-year- old and a four year old… our younger child is born with Down Syndrome.

I recently found out about BPD and I think she is suffering from it. I mentioned this to her, I been seeing some PD in her behaviors in the last five years of our marriage and it backfired.  I been able to control it by validating etc…... find it very hard, tiring… I took off work during holidays to spend time with family and ending up sleeping on the couch, ended being really sick, right now…

I talked to a criminal attorney, told him what’s going on and how to protect myself and he suggested I move out of the apartment. I live in California. If I move out, can it be used against me as abandoning my kids, if so how? I feel like I have been waiting to be jailed falsely.  I am torn apart deciding what’s best. One more thing to add is that I am the primary provider in our apt, she works part time.  Any advice is appreciated. Keeping a journal of every incident is so tiring…

I am thinking of talking to a Therapist myself, do you think that would be helpful at all? Thank you…

[trappeddad]

do not move out without consulting a family lawyer.    I filed the paperwork for custody before moving out.    if you need a break, take a vacation or stay at a friends.   but get paperwork filed before moving out.    don't be accused of abandonment.     

[scraps66]

Tough situation.  It is likely that your attempts to discuss the "issues", ie. her behavior, are driving her further into denial and with her condition, triggering the behaviors you speak of, false allegations, DV and calling the cops.  I hope you are documenting all of this and I would stop trying to discuss things like BPD with her.  She will go back and forth, the situation sounds very similar to the book title, "I hate you, don't leave."  She's doing everything she can to put you on edge, but not leave.  As in my situation, I said, "if I was half as bad as you have portrayed me, YOU would have filed for divorce."

It is also likely that the longer you stay in the house, with no proactive moves towards divorce, and regardless of her realization of her own behavior - there may be none - she probably does not assume there will be a divorce. 

So, to move, or not to move.  So you don't own a house together, that's good.  If the lease is in her name alone, that is good too.  I filed for divorce from my uBPD/NPDex of 47 months.  We then cohabitated for over a year during separation - period of walking on eggshells - and then she had me kicked out of the house only after she had found a job, and then drug out the divorce so I would pay the mortgage while I lived elsewhere, also paying rent.  I had the cops to the house on several occasions, she was sleeping around, she was bad in front of the kids during this period of separation.  But, it was only when she got me kicked out of the house did she really think there would be a divorce. 

If I had it to do over, I may have actively arranged to move out on my own, but was concerned for the well-being of our two children, similar ages to yours, and was concerned for being accused of abandonment. 

First step is to find an family law attorney you can talk to, find a decent attorney.  This takes time and effort but is necessary, don't overlook the importance of this step.  You can get a one hour consult and get the lay of the land for your jurisdiction.  Looking back, I think it is possible to move from the house with the proper arrangements, and not affect your ability to get custody.  But check with the attorney.  In your case, if she is mentally ill, this has to make caring for a special needs child that much more challenging.  I have a S9 that was replicating ex's behaviors, still does, and he has been diagnosed mildly autistic/asberger's and his mother's BP traits do not help him at all.  So, you may want to talk to the attorney about confirming her mental state of mind right at the onset.  For me, I would have difficulty in questioning her mental stability, but then moving myself from the house. 

Does she work?  What are the income situations, can she support herself?  This will have an impact on how much you have to pay her.  My "marriage" was 47 months long, in my state of PA, that duration is not long enough for my ex-spouse to qualify for alimony.  Check in CA to see what the child support and spousal support criteria is, again, the attorney or research online.  When you discuss custody, you are going to want to shoot high, at least 50/50 for your children, or higher based on her condition and what the attorney tells you is realistic under the circumstances.

Regarding her going back and forth on the divorce, it may be necessary for you to take the lead and charge ahead, rather than leaving this up to her.  She is controlling you with her chaotic behaviors.   

Your point about the therapist is a good one, only well after my divorce did I see a therapist and I wish I had moved sooner.  It would have helped me to validate what I was feeling.

I'm sure in time you will get some CA-specific info from the boards here.

Good luck.

[bpdsupport]

Thank you so much, Trappeddad and Scraps66, for the information provided. I am going to talk to a therapist myself, continue keeping the incidents jourlan, and talk to a family law attorney again.

In California, the court system uses a calculator called disomaster to figure out the amounts for child support and alimony. I was informed by an attorney that I'd be resposible to provide alimony for half time of our marriage (2.5 years in our case). I can run it online for $40( with 10 times modification). And yes, she can survive(barly)with her income + the business just has on her name.

At the same time I'd appreciate any advise from members in California.

Thank you so much.

[ForeverDad]

If she has threatened to make DV or child abuse allegations, then the risk of her actually doing it is very high.  You better have documentation to show otherwise.  (In my case, once I saw the marriage as imploding I started recording so I could later show I wasn't the one behaving poorly.  I also recorded her threats that she would make allegations if she wasn't appeased.)  When the metaphorical "push comes to shove" she will almost certainly do what she has contemplated or threatened.

My ex had threatened it, and she did it, over and over, when one failed she made a different one.  I've been accused of just about every child abuse possible.  I had a lot of documentation of her poor behaviors.  All her allegations were totally unsubstantiated.  I knew there would be a new allegation either just before a court hearing or just after she had raged or done something wrong.  Looking back, I see it also as my ex trying to make me look worse than her.

[scraps66]

... . I've found that my ex, if she makes an accusation, or states some alleged wrong-doing of mine, those are exactly the things she is either doing, has done, or is plotting to do.

[livednlearned]

Hi BPDsupport,

I'm sorry you're in this bind -- I think the point you decide to file for divorce is probably the most dangerous. Hold your cards close from now on, otherwise you'll increase the risk. Like scraps66 and FD are saying, when BPD sufferers start threatening that they're going to do something, there's a good chance things are already being planned or about to happen. Here's a workshop that other members here contributed to about DV against men and false allegation of DV by men. TOOLS: Domestic Violence Against Men

Have you read Splitting: Divorcing a BPD or NPD spouse by Bill Eddy? Eddy is located in California and has a website with a lot of useful information that will help you. Be strategic in the way you exit this volatile relationship. You want to be able to get out safely without harming yourself, and be a stable parent for your kids: www.highconflictinstitute.com/

It's critically important to get an initial consult with an attorney -- it can range from $50 to $100 for 30 (sometimes 60) minutes. Write a list of questions down on a piece of paper before you go -- maybe friends here can help you come up with questions -- and take the list with you to your consult. Just talking about divorce is highly stressful and it's easy to forget important information when your heart and head is reeling.

Is your documentation in a safe place? If your wife suspects divorce, it's a good idea to start being very careful about things you want to keep private. She will use any information about your plan against you, so be careful. Photocopy or remove any official documents like birth certificates that you might need.

Is it possible that you can get an apartment and bring the kids with you? That would prevent you from looking like you abandoned the kids, while removing you from the potential threat of false DV charges. I can't remember if California is a state where you need two-party consent to record. If it isn't (easy enough to Google this information) then consider carrying a voice recorder at all times so if she alleges you did something, you have a recording to show. This would be a good question for the lawyer consult that you do.

And h@ll yes, get a therapist if you can! Divorce from a BPD sufferer is one of the hardest things a person can go through, especially with kids involved. Lots of us tend to sabotage ourselves by thinking with the same habits of mind and feelings that got us into these relationships in the first place. You need someone to help check your thinking so you don't derail efforts to take care of yourself and your kids. They need you! A lot!

Let us know how you're doing. People here really care. A bunch of us have been through it and speaking for myself, friends here gave me priceless advice and probably saved me thousands of dollars in legal fees.

[sfbayjed]

Let me tell you what happened to me, I was in the same type of situation at one time.  A cute blonde wife who acted crazy sometimes but was so nice most of the time. Over the years the threats and false accusations started.  She also would threaten to end the relationship all the time. Both of these things were done so she could gain power and control.  I minimized it. I would wait for the rages to stop, she was kind of like two different people, one of them loved me and one wanted to completely distroy me.  

 Anyway, years went by, the pattern continued, we became pregnant and the rages disassociation escalated in intensity, then the next thing I knew I was sitting in jail eating a baloney sandwich with multiple felonies charges, I had no idea what BPD was, was in the FOG and I took a deal and plead to a misdemeanor. My wife was pregnant, we were back together, thought I was doing the best thing for our family at the time. Mr. Nice Guy.  

The result of this was for years I was afraid if I left she would get custody because of the conviction, she had me convinced of that and it was likely true. I stayed to protect the kids (that was my reasoning).  Can you imagine the type of situation this created?  Well it was worse.

If she keeps saying it, she will do it as soon as she gets to enraged enough.  I bet you have realized that there is no limit to what they can do in their rages, there is no compassion, no empathy and no appreciation of the gravity of what they are doing nor the consequences of there actions.  My ex could destroy me then go to bed and sleep like a baby.  

I would suggest getting out sooner than I did.  


CA is a two party consent state for recording.

[sfbayjed]

on recording in CA. it is an all party consent if there is an expectation of privacy.  In a public place you can record.  In a private place you can not record the  conversation without the consent of all parties involved and the recording would not be admissible as evidence.  I have never heard of anyone being charged with recording in a high conflict domestic situation. That is not really what the law was intended to prevent. I have however heard of people being charged with false accusations.

[ForeverDad]

I have never heard of anyone being charged with recording in a high conflict domestic situation. That is not really what the law was intended to prevent.

Of the thousand of members here over the past several years, only a very few - the very most contentious cases - had the issue of recording become an issue in family court.  Much of the time courts tried to ignore recordings in the past.  In some cases the court will listen to them.  But even if the court won't listen, perhaps the police or evaluators will and it will help inform those professionals.  It seldom reaches judicial ire these days, what with the nearly endless list of ways to record these days, cell phones, MP3 recorders, digital cameras, camcorders, etc.  What you do with it could be more likely to trigger judicial reaction, so don't post recordings to social sites, etc.  Hold them in reserve for if/when needed, view any recording as a form of insurance to (1) document who is the one misbehaving and (2) counteract false allegations.

As one member here stated, I believe it was david, he'd rather be jailed for recording than jailed for false allegations.  He lives in a two party state, was convicted and jailed for 2 weeks on unsubstantiated allegations causing him to lose his job or go on extended years-long leave.  He decided that henceforth he would 'record himself' as proof he didn't do anything wrong at all future exchanges and contact, if his ex happened to be in it too, so be it.

[livednlearned]

I have never heard of anyone being charged with recording in a high conflict domestic situation. That is not really what the law was intended to prevent.

Of the thousand of members here over the past several years, only a very few - the very most contentious cases - had the issue of recording become an issue in family court.  Much of the time courts tried to ignore recordings in the past.  In some cases the court will listen to them.  But even if the court won't listen, perhaps the police or evaluators will and it will help inform those professionals.  It seldom reaches judicial ire these days, what with the nearly endless list of ways to record these days, cell phones, MP3 recorders, digital cameras, camcorders, etc.  What you do with it could be more likely to trigger judicial reaction, so don't post recordings to social sites, etc.  Hold them in reserve for if/when needed, view any recording as a form of insurance to (1) document who is the one misbehaving and (2) counteract false allegations.

As one member here stated, I believe it was david, he'd rather be jailed for recording than jailed for false allegations.  He lives in a two party state, was convicted and jailed for 2 weeks on unsubstantiated allegations causing him to lose his job or go on extended years-long leave.  He decided that henceforth he would 'record himself' as proof he didn't do anything wrong at all future exchanges and contact, if his ex happened to be in it too, so be it.

Also -- just holding up a recording device when you feel threatened can prevent worse things from happening. N/BPDx approached my car when I arrived to pick up S12 instead of texting from his phone, which he usually does. His manner was menacing/threatening, so I closed the windows and set my phone to record, and held it up to him, telling him that I was recording.

He got a shocked look on his face, turned around, and walked away.