New Attorney = New Hope.

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Well one week ago she went to jail for domestic violence and I called my attorneys office which I still haven't heard from. I asked another attorney friend of mine to recommend someone who knew how to handle these crazy women. Well I found her and while the price seems high I feel hopeful. I started describing what was going on and she asked "what is wrong with her". I asked have you any clue what BPD is. She said oh sh! t doubled her fee and started asking me have you read... . She even said a few titles I haven't read and assured me this would not be easy but she enjoys exposing these pieces of work for what they are.

Oh I can't wait!

[lost not dead]

Well one week ago she went to jail for domestic violence and I called my attorneys office which I still haven't heard from. I asked another attorney friend of mine to recommend someone who knew how to handle these crazy women. Well I found her and while the price seems high I feel hopeful. I started describing what was going on and she asked "what is wrong with her". I asked have you any clue what BPD is. She said oh sh! t doubled her fee and started asking me have you read... . She even said a few titles I haven't read and assured me this would not be easy but she enjoys exposing these pieces of work for what they are.

Oh I can't wait!

[Matt]

Sounds pretty encouraging, except the cost.

The book most of us have found useful for the legal stuff is "Splitting" by William A. Eddy.  He also has a good web site:  www.HighConflictInstitute.com.

Do you have kids?

What are the next steps?

[lost not dead]

Splitting is one she recommended. In fact her copy she loans to clients looked like it went through a few wars.

We have 2 children. A S9 and a D14. I have always been their caretaker and they both choose to live with me. Her and I have not lived together in 6 1/2 years.

First is motions for temporary support orders and protection orders.

The price is healthy but reasonable for what we are up against I believe. My cousin went through a divorce last year with an NPD wife no realestate or children and spent about 6 so I'm feeling ok.

[Waddams]

Well, I'd say from a legal standpoint you sound in good shape.  You've got:

-Precedent for custody - the kids being with you as sole caretaker for the past 6 1/2 years.  She'd have a really tough time overcoming that to get custody.

-While I know going through the actual experience has to be very hard, her recent DV arrest will also add to your pile of ammunition in court.  I'm very sorry that happened though.  Did the kids witness it?  How are they doing?

-A good lawyer that seems to understand what you're up against. 

The motions for temp support and protect sound like a good place to start.  What about visitation with their mom?  Are you going to ask for any kind of supervised visitation?  And is there a chance for some kind of court ordered therapy for the kid's mother?

Are they pushing for GAL's, custody evaluator's, etc.?  I wonder sometimes in certain cases if such things are really necessary.  Those experts are brought in to help a judge ferret out the facts for a good ruling.  In your case, just the DV and the fact that you've had the kids on your own for 6 1/2 years already seems to make it pretty obvious regarding how the judge should rule. 

What other issues are there that need to be resolved besides official court papers that state who has custody, support orders, and protection?  Are there marital assets to divide?  And if she's been gone 6 1/2 years, I would think that makes it rather obvious she's not interested in those assets and has abandoned her rights to them.  There could be potentially not much to litigate in your case except if you're going for supervised visits.

What's her visitation history been up to now? 

[ForeverDad]

In my case, my new attorney estimated a divorce with children at 7-9 months and about $5K.  It took 23.5 months.  Partway through I recall him staring at me after I asked for another Contempt of Court filing and asking, ":)o you want a $5K divorce or a $30K divorce?"  That was 2006-2008, I've been using this lawyer every since.  So, yes, I understand why your fee went up, sadly.

The good thing is, as Waddams noted, you've had majority parenting for years.  That is hugely in your favor.  Hold onto it for dear life.  Courts generally are very reluctant to change the parenting history.  Or if they do change it, they're very reluctant to change it back and will do do it in baby steps over years.

If she lives out of the area, then it is very good that you are the one filing.  You can have a local lawyer and local court.  You sure don't want to be dealing with a remote court where you're put at a disadvantage.

Meanwhile - of course - do not allow her back into your proximity even later on after she gets out.  Distance reduces the risk of future violence.  You may not be able to avoid her having parenting time, whether supervised or not, but you still need to firmly keep your distance.  And make exchanges in public places or at the local police or sheriff department or ensure she stays in her car and neither approaches the other's door.

Throughout the court case be sure to focus most on how your children are impacted.  While the inter-parent conflict (adult behaviors between adults) is noteworthy, the adult behaviors, conflict, DV, etc don't mean nearly as much as the parenting behaviors unless they somehow impact the children and how they are parented (parenting behaviors).

Of course, your spouse's conviction is very noteworthy and the courts cannot ignore it.  They may try to pooh-pooh it as not relavent to the parenting but try not to let that happen.  When we separated my ex was arrested for threat of DV and although it got me temporary protection and possession of the marital home, it didn't do much else and I couldn't see any indication family court paid attention to it while it was a pending case over in the other court.  (After a few months the case finally went to trial and she excused her death threats as the way we argued and the judge dismissed it since she didn't heave a dangerous weapon in her hands and therefore not an "imminent" threat per case law.  I had a very, very entitled and possessive spouse/mother and family court ignored my protection (TPO) and decided the temp order by one question: What are your work schedules?

Final thought... . don't feel sorry for her.  She's an adult, these are her consequences, let her face them.  Maybe she'll learn from her consequences or maybe not, but that's up to her.  After all these years, you must accept you can't fix her and you can't change her, so place limits on her contact with you and by extension with the children too as appropriate.  Your #1 priorities are you and the children.

[livednlearned]

Well one week ago she went to jail for domestic violence and I called my attorneys office which I still haven't heard from. I asked another attorney friend of mine to recommend someone who knew how to handle these crazy women. Well I found her and while the price seems high I feel hopeful. I started describing what was going on and she asked "what is wrong with her". I asked have you any clue what BPD is. She said oh sh! t doubled her fee and started asking me have you read... . She even said a few titles I haven't read and assured me this would not be easy but she enjoys exposing these pieces of work for what they are.

Oh I can't wait!

Good feedback from everyone else.

But... . there's something about your L's response that seems a bit off. Good Ls don't enjoy "exposing these pieces of work for what they are." They want to protect their clients and do what's best for the kids.

My ex, also an attorney, used to enjoy conflict and battling with people. He gloated over things that would make my stomach sick. My lawyer, who is not NPD, thinks there are a lot of lawyers who have narcissistic traits.

Be careful about your attorney. In a book about narcissists I read a few years ago, the author mentions that people like us (divorcing BPD spouses) often end up choosing NPD lawyers.

[Matt]

Well one week ago she went to jail for domestic violence and I called my attorneys office which I still haven't heard from. I asked another attorney friend of mine to recommend someone who knew how to handle these crazy women. Well I found her and while the price seems high I feel hopeful. I started describing what was going on and she asked "what is wrong with her". I asked have you any clue what BPD is. She said oh sh! t doubled her fee and started asking me have you read... . She even said a few titles I haven't read and assured me this would not be easy but she enjoys exposing these pieces of work for what they are.

Oh I can't wait!

Good feedback from everyone else.

But... . there's something about your L's response that seems a bit off. Good Ls don't enjoy "exposing these pieces of work for what they are." They want to protect their clients and do what's best for the kids.

My ex, also an attorney, used to enjoy conflict and battling with people. He gloated over things that would make my stomach sick. My lawyer, who is not NPD, thinks there are a lot of lawyers who have narcissistic traits.

Be careful about your attorney. In a book about narcissists I read a few years ago, the author mentions that people like us (divorcing BPD spouses) often end up choosing NPD lawyers.

That's a good point.  I would expect the attorney to be telling you, "Leave your emotions at home.  This is a business arrangement." - hard advice to follow, but good advice.

So if the attorney is being drive by emotions, he may not be a good fit.  Or you might have to manage him skilfully - tell him, "We're both motivated to get a good outcome, but let's dial down the emotions and focus on what's best for the kids and for me - how do we get the best outcome?".

[lost not dead]

I am very confident in her ability and professionalism. At our meeting today she warned me I better be sure when I want to poke the tiger and when to leave her alone. She is out to keep me and the kids safe but has no fear of my ex.

[Nope]

To give the L the benefit of doubt, given the rough shape her client copy of that book is in, she may just have her own bitterness about BPD due to watching client after client suffer. She may even have a pwBPD somewhere in her own life. Pretend for a moment that you are an L and everyone else on the board is a client of yours. At a certain point, at least in front of my clients, I'd stop beating around the bush.

[Matt]

To give the L the benefit of doubt, given the rough shape her client copy of that book is in, she may just have her own bitterness about BPD due to watching client after client suffer. She may even have a pwBPD somewhere in her own life. Pretend for a moment that you are an L and everyone else on the board is a client of yours. At a certain point, at least in front of my clients, I'd stop beating around the bush.

Yeah, that's fair.  Attorneys are people too.  (Anybody that knows me, if I was an attorney, I'd probably say fighting words worse than "exposing these pieces of work for what they are"... . ).

Just remember that you're the boss, and the attorney works for you, and if at any time you don't see the attorney handling things in the most professional manner, you're right to give him a nudge in the right direction.

[DreamGirl]

lost not dead,

I'm so sorry for all that you've been thru.  :'(

It's not about vengeance. It's not about winning. It's not about poking tigers or exposing "these people" for who they are.

This is about your precious children who have a mom who went to jail for assaulting their dad. That's a lot to have to handle. It's also about being the parent who actually has the skills to make grounded decisions for the sake of the them. It's about taking your emotional reactions and not allowing them to rule your decisions.

I think choosing an attorney who is knowledgable of the disorder and is well read are both good signs. My husband's attorney had a lot of experience with high conflict divorce cases and part of what helped my husband's custody case was knowing not so much "when to poke the tiger"  - but when to be aggressive and when not to be. (i.e. don't spend an hour in court arguing about a $200 refrigerator at $300 an hour)  

Are you seeking full custody? Supervised visitation for her? What's the custody arrangement now?

-DreamGirl

[lost not dead]

Ok more back ground.

The wife is a cotract professional who works at different locations all over the continental US. She may spend two months to several years at one job. I was self employed and raised our daughter while I work. I mean no daycare one on one. Four months after our son was born I sold my business and became a stay at home dad. The wife made plenty to support everything and we agreed one parent full time was what they needed. She lived where her jobs were and came home to visit every few weeks. You can only imagine the unchecked infidelity.  1 1/2 years ago she told me to go to hell and I did. The kids hate her she hates me and now the final battle begins. 17 years in the fog assaulted at least four times per year unfortunately undocumented until now and had her turn on me the kids and anyone else who tried to get her help. My L is well versed in disorder and is making sure I don't let down my guard.

[livednlearned]

Ok more back ground.

The wife is a cotract professional who works at different locations all over the continental US. She may spend two months to several years at one job. I was self employed and raised our daughter while I work. I mean no daycare one on one. Four months after our son was born I sold my business and became a stay at home dad. The wife made plenty to support everything and we agreed one parent full time was what they needed. She lived where her jobs were and came home to visit every few weeks. You can only imagine the unchecked infidelity.  1 1/2 years ago she told me to go to hell and I did. The kids hate her she hates me and now the final battle begins. 17 years in the fog assaulted at least four times per year unfortunately undocumented until now and had her turn on me the kids and anyone else who tried to get her help. My L is well versed in disorder and is making sure I don't let down my guard.

How awful to go through that, LnD. It's no wonder you feel such anger. I had to get help from a T to feel my own anger, and when it came in, wooweee did it come in hard. Are you getting any support from a therapist to help you through this? How about the kids?

One way to test your L is to disagree with her -- if she flips out or gets angry at you, or outright ignores you, mocks you, or makes you feel in any way like your ex ever made you feel, you may have an NPD lawyer on your hands.

In very real terms, an NPD lawyer means a very, very expensive divorce, because an NPD lawyer will choose to fight when it isn't necessary. It's what they think you hired them to do.

Be careful.

[lost not dead]

I detached a year ago and being a school psychologist myself I have leaned on my old classmates who have been practicing for years for help. As far as the kids I'm trying to find help but until the support orders come through I have no income. Isn't financial abuse wonderful.  I am looking into a family counselling center near by that helps in these situations.  They are seeming ok but I can sense the stress and their mother keeps trying to triangulate them. So I am trying for sole custody but am willing to settle for supervised visitation since she is an abusive alcoholic.

[ForeverDad]

I am trying for sole custody but am willing to settle for supervised visitation... .

In many jurisdictions custody can be a very different issue than visitation or parenting time.  Be sure to determine how interdependent those are in your area.

Typically, custody is the legal aspect, who makes the major decisions such as schooling, religion, medical decisions, etc.  Custody can be:  (1) sole custody, (2) joint custody and neat variations (if you can't manage to get the court to grant you sole custody) such as (3) joint with tie-breaker or (4) joint with decision-making.  These last two allow the non-primary (obstructive or uncooperative) parent to publicly claim to have joint custody while the primary parent can still proceed efficiently as the tie breaker or the decision maker.  Tie breaker asks first and then acts.  :)ecision maker can act first and inform afterward more or less.

Typically, parenting time or visitation deals with the schedule for parent-child contact.  It can range from equal time to less and even to supervised if necessary.

So be sure to find out how your state and local county view and handle such topics.

In your case, you would seek sole custody and (maybe) settle for tie-breaker or decision maker.  Joint custody where you two are equals simply not work, she is too uncooperative or obstructive or uncontrolled or something.  As for time with the children you may need a custody evaluator or parenting investigator to recommend how much visitation she ought to have and whether it would be supervised or otherwise restricted in some way.

[livednlearned]

In your case, you would seek sole custody and (maybe) settle for tie-breaker or decision maker.  Joint custody where you two are equals simply not work, she is too uncooperative or obstructive or uncontrolled or something.  As for time with the children you may need a custody evaluator or parenting investigator to recommend how much visitation she ought to have and whether it would be supervised or otherwise restricted in some way.

Is her alcohol abuse documented? If she is an at-home alcoholic, it's hard to get the courts to care -- at least that's how it worked in my case. My ex didn't drink and drive so there was never a DUI and he could hold a job, so there wasn't much to go on from the court's perspective.

Is your lawyer suggesting sole custody? In my state, there really isn't such a thing as sole or full. You have to get primary physical custody, and primary legal custody. Which basically equals full and sole. I started off with primary physical, joint legal -- I would not agree to decision-making, which was carved out separate from joint legal. Joint legal in some states just means that both parents have legal access to educational and medical records. Decision-making is what really matters. Especially with an obstructive BPD co-parent.

If there is DV, and she is a documented alcoholic, you may be able to get primary physical custody, but the courts will likely try to keep joint legal custody. That means you have to seek your ex's permission for therapy, medical decisions, and school decisions.

Ask your L if she thinks there's a possibility that you could get primary physical and primary legal -- it's worth it if you can do it. And then for visitation, propose a moderated temporary schedule. That seems to go down easier with the courts. So maybe day visits every other weekend to start (possibly supervised), and if that goes ok for x number of months, it can go to longer day visits. Then if that goes ok, something else. The point being that rarely do dysfunctional BPD sufferers ever get better, but at least you propose something that shows you're willing and open to reconsidering based on positive behavior around the kids.

[Matt]

If there are documented problems due to drinking or drugs, you might also ask the court to order random drug and/or alcohol screening for a period of time.

[lost not dead]

Well the ex's alcoholism is only hearsay from my teenagers and I. She was on probabtion for a fatal accident due to her drinking but that was 8 years ago. When she was arrested for the DV the officer said she waa under the influence but no test was done. She holds her liquor well and is very successful in her career.  The L is going to try and hit her with a UA and folical sample in court but the judge has to enforce it. That is why I hired as local as possible so she knows all the judges and clerks.

In my state I believe it is called sole custody and sole conservatorship. That is our bullseye so we will see where we hit. I'm going in asking for resonable maximums and willing to be flexible to a point. We are a family that has a viscous agitator in our ranks. I look to remove her ability to hurt us anymore not punish her.

[Matt]

If she is an alcoholic, and if she's drinking and not in AA or another program, then random drug/alcohol screening will probably come up positive sooner or later.  You may have to show some reason why you are concerned to get the testing ordered by the court.  Or another strategy might be to propose that both parents be randomly tested - then if she fights it and you don't the judge will get the picture.

8 years is a long time without a DUI or some other documented problem caused by drinking.

When she was arrested and the officer said she was under the influence - I wonder if that was in the police report?  Have you been able to get a copy of that report?  Maybe your lawyer knows how you could get it.  I was the victim of a DV attack, and I was able to get a copy of the police report - maybe the person she attacked could get it and give it to you, or maybe the judge could get it.