I never gave properly "validation" to my BPDex... feeling awful.

[MrConfused]

i just realize that the 'bad' things i said were said because i was defending myself and trying to stay above water. honestly i feel my ex *wanted* to hear this stuff. she *wants* to be treated this way to justify being who she is at her core, where there's a lot of dishonesty and toxicity.

This is where I'm at now. I was defending the way I was being treat by her. I never raged at her in person, all our arguments were via txt. We'd meet up and mutually agree on boundaries only for her to act completely differently afterwards. This went on for months

I even *told* her in the end that it felt like she wanted me to pop/rage so she had an excuse in her head to make me out as the "bad guy" when all I'd done was be the perfect friend to her. I felt terrible at the time but I was left with no other choice.

to me it sounds less like guilt and more like the last stages of detachment where you may be clinging to the idea that she isn't what she is. she is.

This is also true. As it gets longer and longer since I last spoke to her I think... maybe she wasn't ill... . maybe I did wrong, ignored what she was saying & wasn't caring enough.

Then I realise that it wasn't possible for me to care anymore than I did, it was breaking me as a person.

I also remember that when I first came here, EVERYTHING matched her up to a letter & still does.

[Nicco]

Hi Nicco, good to hear from you again.

I am going through this exact same thing, like I didn't validate her properly, and I could have made it better if I had understood. But really, how could we not have understood unless it got to this point? Have you ever had to work soo hard at a r/s before?

And here is one more thing to consider: how did she every lovingly validate YOU?

Hi Turkish

indeed this was absolutely the most challenging r/s i ever had... . foundamentally was a challenge under every point of view,i don't remember a REAL relaxed time even when things with her seemed quiet.

And you pinted on a point i didn't thought about indeed,i had an a ha moment right now... . did she validate my feelings,needs?I would love to reply "yes" but i can't... . for example i'm thinking right now about how much she tried to force me to be the "perfect" father of her son since the early beginning... . i mean,i'm 27 and i passed from university life to family life in one step... . it's a process that require a lil bit of time i guess... . especially to build a r/s with a child... . i tried to explain her that i really wanted to take care of him too but that i just needed time to take the habit and build a connection with him... . she was upset by this cause she was dreaming a "wonderful family time" (when i met her she told she wanted just to build a lovely family... later in time,during devaluation,she told me the contrary) while me i just asked time,nothing else,cause i wasn't able to become the perfect father from today to tomorrow... . as result asking this i got her upset,raging and after harming herself... . and me feeling guilty for everything.

You have to have a life independent of the pwBPD for it to work. You have to emotionally detach yourself. To me, that defeats the very purpose of a relationship.

Brilliant thought too... . absolutely agree with you Ironman.

BPD is a minefield.  What can be a trigger one day isn't one the next.  What isn't a trigger today is one tomorrow.

I'm sorry to read that you done so much to get so few.

Even avoiding EVERY trigger i guess that the stress load would be just unsustainable... . and plus there's the risk to see everything go to hell just for a wrong word once in a while.Terrible.

I've been feeling this way too. The more I learn about BPD and the techniques for managing it, the more I wonder if I could have made it work.

That's something i'm still not able to deal with.Maybe i will in time,maybe i'm just still in the FOG,but i find out myself thinking about this pretty often for now.For sure i made something wrong... . happened that i said i would have done something and than i didn't... . even simple things... . she told that she hates people who say something without act suddenly in that way... . sometimes she was right probably,especially for simple things... . i didn't knew it could have such a terrible effect on her.

I find this thread disgusting, not sure who is asking this question but it feels wrong.

You're asking us if we were not thoughtful enough?

I think most of us here put heart soul finances emotions into our relationships with these demons and they lied to us from the beginning. They a used us physically mentally emotionally and financially. Your question seems to suggest that we didn't give enough or we could have changed the RS if we were clever enough to know something we didn't ?

This feels a bit turning the mirror around, transference, projection.

What do you really want to say!

It was our faults?

Please!

Pay some respect to the disorder and to the abused broken people trying to scramble some semblance of hope, self respect, love, physical health and trust back

God bless everyone here.

Hi Changingman

sorry if i offended you with my words,wasn't my intention and plus english is just a second language for me,maybe i didn't explained well what i meant.

Off course everything i write belongs just to my PERSONAL situation and r/s... . i'm not suggesting nothing about how other people here could have menaged their r/s... . and for nothing in the world i could think that is OUR fault,i know that ALL people here gave everything possible to make it work... . i just feel that if I knew something more about BPD maybe things could have been different for MINE r/s... . probably not anyway.

Why you talk about transference and projection? I find it very interesting and would love to get an explanation.

I apologize again with you if i wrote something offensive for you.

This is a little different to the "good" and "bad" balance, but I recalled until the very end, hoping, yearning, missing and wishing that the pwBPD that I had met at the very beggining, idealization was going to show up again and give me attention, adulation and love. I think that I was denial in that context as well. I was ignoring all of the really bad behaviors and treatment and focused on that "good" fantasy to return. That wasn't realistic.

Another very good point... . i'm just praying to leave those kind of fantasies as sooner as i can too.Rationally i know everything... . emotionally,i'm still totally blind and focused on her.

but guilt on her part? that's for the birds my man. to me it sounds less like guilt and more like the last stages of detachment where you may be clinging to the idea that she isn't what she is. she is.

Hi there

me i still feel in the early stages of detachement... . actually i feel a big mess in my head and heart... . i'm just moving forward and backward inside all the stages... . every single day... . i wake up thinking and feeling at something,i go to sleep thinking and feeling something else... . every day,in loop... . i'm feeling totally destroyed and splitted in thousand of pieces and i don't find a way keep the same feelings and thoughts for more than one day... . sometimes in the same hour too... . is what is exhausting me the most... . i'm not able to keep the same feelings and thought about her or the r/s or my will to have her back... . i'm really tired.Ruminating strongly.

Peace to everybody.

[Johnny Alias]

I get it.  I do. 

She used to blame all her over the top behavior on her having a BIG HEART... . which is another way of saying she is WAY over the top emotionally. 

Thing I have to remind myself is... . it's a bottomless pit.  I'm sure you did your best.  Honestly.  But even if you'd added more love and validation and acceptance onto how SHE feels it NEVER would have been enough.  It never is!  That's the nature of the beast once you hit the devaluation cycle... . which you ALWAYS hit because you're not this GOD she portrayed you to be in her mind... . you're human and have flaws and eventually she starts to see them and then pushes you off the pedestal with as much enthusiasm as putting you on it. 

Validate.  I'm guessing she gave you a list of things she wanted you to improve about yourself, but when you did the same she either got ANGRY or just blew it off and gave it lip service.  Admitting any kind of flaw about themselves is simply too damaging to their fragile little ego.  They can't do it.  They have to be perfect or admit that they are complete and total train wrecks... . which goes against every survival instinct they have.

It would have ended.  And to be honest man, when she finds someone else she will NOT care.  She won't.  Because another guy will be worshipping her and saying she's perfect... . which she has to be to survive. 

My ex has a new guy.  She doesn't think about me except to hate me.  She remembers none of the good times.  None of the sacrifices i made for her.  None of the abuse she poured on me.  She doesn't do this out of malice.  She does it because she has no object constancy, incredible difficulty accessing memories, and an inability to feel remorse for her actions.  She's a case of arrested development and has been like this since she was a little girl and will be like this when she's an old woman. 

Let it go.  It wasn't your fault.  Believe me.  There was NOTHING YOU could do.  Most therapists don't even treat BPD because they go from being saints to devils sometimes in the span of one session.  These are trained PROFESSIONALS!

Let it go.  Breathe.  She was like a hurricane.  A force of nature.  And now she's gone.  You can't reason with a hurricane.  You can't control it.  You can't make it better.  All you can do is pick yourself up and rebuild.    

[Nicco]

I get it.  I do. 

She used to blame all her over the top behavior on her having a BIG HEART... . which is another way of saying she is WAY over the top emotionally. 

Thing I have to remind myself is... . it's a bottomless pit.  I'm sure you did your best.  Honestly.  But even if you'd added more love and validation and acceptance onto how SHE feels it NEVER would have been enough.  It never is!  That's the nature of the beast once you hit the devaluation cycle... . which you ALWAYS hit because you're not this GOD she portrayed you to be in her mind... . you're human and have flaws and eventually she starts to see them and then pushes you off the pedestal with as much enthusiasm as putting you on it. 

Validate.  I'm guessing she gave you a list of things she wanted you to improve about yourself, but when you did the same she either got ANGRY or just blew it off and gave it lip service.  Admitting any kind of flaw about themselves is simply too damaging to their fragile little ego.  They can't do it.  They have to be perfect or admit that they are complete and total train wrecks... . which goes against every survival instinct they have.

It would have ended.  And to be honest man, when she finds someone else she will NOT care.  She won't.  Because another guy will be worshipping her and saying she's perfect... . which she has to be to survive. 

My ex has a new guy.  She doesn't think about me except to hate me.  She remembers none of the good times.  None of the sacrifices i made for her.  None of the abuse she poured on me.  She doesn't do this out of malice.  She does it because she has no object constancy, incredible difficulty accessing memories, and an inability to feel remorse for her actions.  She's a case of arrested development and has been like this since she was a little girl and will be like this when she's an old woman. 

Let it go.  It wasn't your fault.  Believe me.  There was NOTHING YOU could do.  Most therapists don't even treat BPD because they go from being saints to devils sometimes in the span of one session.  These are trained PROFESSIONALS!

Let it go.  Breathe.  She was like a hurricane.  A force of nature.  And now she's gone.  You can't reason with a hurricane.  You can't control it.  You can't make it better.  All you can do is pick yourself up and rebuild.    

Thanks for this... . gave me a lil bit of peace.

[Changingman]

you know i never felt bad or had an ounce of regret about anything i said or did to my ex, and for that i am grateful. i just realize that the 'bad' things i said were said because i was defending myself and trying to stay above water. honestly i feel my ex *wanted* to hear this stuff. she *wants* to be treated this way to justify being who she is at her core, where there's a lot of dishonesty and toxicity.

after leaving the r/s i was a bit shook up and i thought that perhaps i had anger issues. and, well, i did have anger issues--in the context of being around an abusive manipulative woman. listen, getting you riled up and doing bad things is sport for pwBPD, they thrive off of it. so you have to give yourself a break.

as i got more seasoned dealing with her behaviors, i was able to deal with things more calmly. i was able to walk away more and not participate in arguments -- boy did being respectful on my part piss her the hell off! the whole point of her talking at that point was just to get me to react. so if i didn't react or even tried to be loving then she just got worse and worse to try and get a negative response.

me feel guilty? please she's gotten worse responses from plenty of people since we broke up. and i haven't treated anyone that bad since, even when arguing. i think the guilt you feel right now may be lessened if you think about how many men she's duped into feeling guilty like you--how many other good guys are out there thinking they could have done better by her? so many we don't want to think about it.

that does leave the fact that perhaps you said/did things that were out of character for you. and rightfully so you want to examine this stuff and forgive yourself; this is healthy. but guilt on her part? that's for the birds my man. to me it sounds less like guilt and more like the last stages of detachment where you may be clinging to the idea that she isn't what she is. she is.

Exactly

[Nicco]

Why i should be in the last state of detachement?

I really don't understand and i'm feeling anywhere else but for sure not in a "last stage" :/    

And anyway yes,sometimes i think about things i've done that for sure hurted her and it makes me suffer.

Maybe she doesn't has empathy or a heart in the way we mean,but me yes.

[findingmyselfagain]

Nicco,

Feeling sympathy for her was one of my strongest hooks. All of the men who abused her, her sadness, etc.? I told my therapist when I saw her profile I thought she just needed a little TLC. I was attracted by her vulnerability. She wasn't a classic pwBPD... . more like the Waif/Hermit. Interestingly enough, a lot of my childhood dynamics almost set me up for a destructive r/s. I realize now she is living a very destructive pattern. It never really had anything to do with me. If she was healthy (and I related to her in a healthy way) we would have had a healthy relationship and I wouldn't be here.

Fast forward about 3 years and I do feel compassion for her, but I also accept that it's unlikely she will change or ever enjoy a nice relationship. As time goes by I enjoy peace more and more and feel more comfortable with a healthy intimacy with a healthy person. I'm no longer trying to rescue. That was my hook!

What are you doing to move forward? It's a tough journey. I went through a lot of depression, dealing with a very stressful work environment, and managing insulin-dependent diabetes. I look back, and I'm pretty amazed I even survived. I joined some meetup groups, a flag football league, and I pushed myself to get out even when I was miserable. After a while the FOG starts to clear and the next thing you know you are living life again though the pwBPD will always be an important event. It's not nearly as destructive.

[goldylamont]

Why i should be in the last state of detachement?

I really don't understand and i'm feeling anywhere else but for sure not in a "last stage" :/    

And anyway yes,sometimes i think about things i've done that for sure hurted her and it makes me suffer.

Maybe she doesn't has empathy or a heart in the way we mean,but me yes.

hi Nicco, perhaps i used a poor choice of words. i think "last stage" is probably wrong for you. here is what i was trying to say -- during our recovery, each of us tends to hold onto the idea that things could work out, or could have worked out with our exes. and i am labeling this "false hope". we were/are hoping for something that isn't true. this false hope can manifest in a variety of ways. it can manifest as thinking that maybe you can reconcile things, when you can't. maybe you can recycle, but it will be worse. it can manifest by people saying "i love her and wish her well" even though this person was abusive to you and will continue to be abusive to your replacement and all the ones after that -- i think a lot of "well wishing" is rooted in the false hope that this person will get better and somehow the r/s between you two could work at some point. and it can also manifest as guilt; this false hope that perhaps *you* could change in some way that would make the r/s work; but it was never about you to begin with.

when i said "she is", what i meant is that she *is* an abusive person. and there's nothing we can do or could do about it. i've read too many stories and seen too much evidence to see otherwise. there are therapies that indicate they can improve the lives of the pwBPD; and this is all and well. however it's important to understand that these therapies do not indicate that this makes the r/s with nons that the pwBPD are with any better. meaning--they may stop cutting or may be less suicidal, but in general they still lie, cheat and manipulate their partners.

there is the concept of "radical acceptance". and part of radical acceptance is letting go of this false hope. uncovering why and how we are so attached to these notions and figuring out how we want to live right now and in the future.

[Ironmanrises]

 

My ex has a new guy.  She doesn't think about me except to hate me.  She remembers none of the good times.  None of the sacrifices i made for her.  None of the abuse she poured on me.  She doesn't do this out of malice.  She does it because she has no object constancy, incredible difficulty accessing memories, and an inability to feel remorse for her actions.  She's a case of arrested development and has been like this since she was a little girl and will be like this when she's an old woman. 

I agree with most of what you wrote. However, don't be so sure she does not think of you. If she "hates" you now, it is because she is viewing you through the BPD lens post trigger and is idealizing someone else(current guy). Did she bring up previous exes when you were with her? If so, compare how they were described pre-trigger(idealization) and post-trigger(devaluation) and I can bet that her descriptions of those very exes were hallmark contrasts to one another; meaning in idealization with you, she hated them, they were bad, etc and in devaluation with you, those very same exes she all of a sudden "liked" again and saw them in a new light.   This is what I experienced with my exUBPDgf. I heard the opposing viewpoints on the same exes. Once current guy triggers her, and he will, and that relationship goes to part; it will not a be a surprise if she no longer "hates" you. It may very well be she will start to re-idealize you(or someone else), which ever is an easier mark for her(its nothing personal) because that is how she sees people through the distorted BPD lens. A ___ing nightmare.

[santa]

There was nothing you could do. Honestly.

I did stuff wrong in my relationship. You did stuff wrong in your relationship. Everyone does things wrong sometimes.

It wouldn't have mattered though.

If you'd been perfect, it still would have blown up. That's just what BPD do.

I drive myself crazy with what-ifs too. It's natural. Wouldn't have made a difference though.

[Free2Bee]

 

I agree with most of what you wrote. However, don't be so sure she does not think of you. If she "hates" you now, it is because she is viewing you through the BPD lens post trigger and is idealizing someone else(current guy). Did she bring up previous exes when you were with her? If so, compare how they were described pre-trigger(idealization) and post-trigger(devaluation) and I can bet that her descriptions of those very exes were hallmark contrasts to one another; meaning in idealization with you, she hated them, they were bad, etc and in devaluation with you, those very same exes she all of a sudden "liked" again and saw them in a new light.   

Ironman, *thank you*

You just explained something that happened during the last 'rage episode' I experienced with my ex. She was well into a 'devaluation' of me and suddenly expressed regret about her last two relationships. Then, out of the blue, she explained that she was still in love with *both* of those people (people who she had hated and been hyper-critical of previously). Then she said that she only felt 'safe' with them and didn't feel 'safe' with me. Then she started berated herself for feeling that way and THEN berated me for 'being with someone who would say something like that'. What was wrong with me that I could possible care about her after she said those things... . etc... .

It was a nightmare at the time and VERY confusing (I had no idea my ex was BPD when this all happened). Now, put into context, it makes perfect sense.

Each time I'm able to understand an incident like this, I'm a bit easier on myself. I've been feeling bad, thinking I wasn't enough, that she didn't love me and I was somehow inherently flawed. I had questioned myself... .

It's such a relief to finally make sense of it all.

Wow. Thanks!

[oblivian2013]

I know exactly how you feel. For the first two months into a mandatory 2 year NC with a frivolous protection order against me, I wanted her back so bad and to try harder to validate her, use the tools that I didn't know about, etc. I didn't even know about BPD until the day she left me last July. Since then I have been in weekly therapy and group DBT (for substance use disorder).

One of the things I learned is: "Woulda, shoulda, coulda... . " You cannot change the past. Stop blaming yourself. As many have said here, there probably wasn't anything you might have done differently that would have changed the outcome; they are programmed that way. Especially, as in my case, when they withhold the diagnosis from you.

Keep cheerful!

[MrConfused]

One of the things I learned is: "Woulda, shoulda, coulda... . " You cannot change the past. Stop blaming yourself. As many have said here, there probably wasn't anything you might have done differently that would have changed the outcome; they are programmed that way. Especially, as in my case, when they withhold the diagnosis from you.

Yeah. I ruminated on the "Woulda, shoulda, coulda" for weeks. What if I hadn't been out drinking with my friends when she started a txt argument with me, what if I'd turned it off and just waited until I was more relaxed. What if I'd given her a bit more space (and let her keep treating me like garbage)

What if I'd called her out on her lies in person (we never EVER argued in person, she had ways of keeping me hooked)

What if I hadn't finally snapped and told her what a horrible person she was to keep doing this to people who care for her.

I re-read the txt's of our arguments over and over until I eventually just gave up and deleted them all.

I will always have regrets about the relationship but I did what I did at the time to protect myself from prolonging the pain. If I hadn't I would have eventually lost my entire self worth to her & my friendships would have been in ruins. It hurt like hell for a few months after but I'm slowly regaining my feet. The FOG does clear in time.

I had a minor relapse this week over something she's done to try and get attention from me but instead of sulking about it I've just laughed it off. It was nice to know tho that I'm still being painted black 3/4 months after the final push.