Can bad coping behaviors create good results?

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

I started to respond to another topic and ended up here with a new thread.

Four months ago my BPDw went so far over the top accusing me of DV in e-mails to friends that she crossed a final line that I cannot accept short of serious therapy. She also turned out to be in an emotional/quasi-sexual affair with one of the friends. I'm still in horror, and, she cannot explain why she did it over several days and multiple messages other than to say she "needed sympathy" after an episode. She still seems completely incapable of connecting with the idea that she did something utterly bizarre, cruel and awful. She thinks I simply need to get over it and move on ... . "it will never happen again". Huh? Its maddening and I have given up. Its my future integrity, character and life at stake! Its been 4 months, and I still fall into deep despair that this person that claims love, devotion and "faithfulness" could do such evil things.

What I've not given up on is the LEVERAGE its provided to force her into CBT therapy. Yes; force. She pushes back each time in an episode and refuses to go. Whereupon, I grab my keys and briefcase to leave. I keep packed overnight bags in my car. I used to accept, validate, beg forgiveness, and, endure the abuse for hours and hours... . anything to calm the beast that would work. Decades of it.

No more. For all the supposed good coping behaviors I once employed, I now push back with equal intensity. She chases, she breaks things, and spews every vicious hurtful thing she can... . but nevertheless now winds down much faster from exhaustion. I no longer allow gas-lighting over things that happened either 20 years or 20 minutes ago and methodically refute the smallest incidents that she's fictionalized to meet her emotional needs. I may as well engage and grind it out... . she'd be recycling every complaint she ever had anyway, so lets keep her focused on the absurd and beat it to death. I despise fighting; I hate confrontation... . but in my case controlled but firm push back seems to be working. She's worked hard over 25 years to convince me I'm a pitiful failure of a man in every respect. I'm not; she knows it; and finally senses that she'd better come with her sword drawn and a deep weapons reserves to kill me... . cause I fight back. She's also finally fearful that I might actually leave. I'm successful, a caring human being, have many friends and reasonably attractive to quality women... . and it drives her nuts.

She's agreed to go into CBT therapy to address her violent behavior (she hits and then breaks things when she cant hit), her anger toward others (everyone!), her fear of abandonment (she admits to that), and, to manage the uncontrolled swings toward pathological hatred (after feeling utter devotion, worship and love for me). Forced? Yes. But she's doing it. Though two mental health professionals have diagnosed her with BPD, I have not accused her of it. It will be interesting to see what a third comes up with.

Anyone have success employing "hammer for a hammer" as a coping method? How about forced therapy as a threat and last resort.



If it fails, it simply becomes my last effort at saving our marriage and the woman that I have been devoted to and loved for decades in spite of the craziness.

[rj47]

I started to respond to another topic and ended up here with a new thread.

Four months ago my BPDw went so far over the top accusing me of DV in e-mails to friends that she crossed a final line that I cannot accept short of serious therapy. She also turned out to be in an emotional/quasi-sexual affair with one of the friends. I'm still in horror, and, she cannot explain why she did it over several days and multiple messages other than to say she "needed sympathy" after an episode. She still seems completely incapable of connecting with the idea that she did something utterly bizarre, cruel and awful. She thinks I simply need to get over it and move on ... . "it will never happen again". Huh? Its maddening and I have given up. Its my future integrity, character and life at stake! Its been 4 months, and I still fall into deep despair that this person that claims love, devotion and "faithfulness" could do such evil things.

What I've not given up on is the LEVERAGE its provided to force her into CBT therapy. Yes; force. She pushes back each time in an episode and refuses to go. Whereupon, I grab my keys and briefcase to leave. I keep packed overnight bags in my car. I used to accept, validate, beg forgiveness, and, endure the abuse for hours and hours... . anything to calm the beast that would work. Decades of it.

No more. For all the supposed good coping behaviors I once employed, I now push back with equal intensity. She chases, she breaks things, and spews every vicious hurtful thing she can... . but nevertheless now winds down much faster from exhaustion. I no longer allow gas-lighting over things that happened either 20 years or 20 minutes ago and methodically refute the smallest incidents that she's fictionalized to meet her emotional needs. I may as well engage and grind it out... . she'd be recycling every complaint she ever had anyway, so lets keep her focused on the absurd and beat it to death. I despise fighting; I hate confrontation... . but in my case controlled but firm push back seems to be working. She's worked hard over 25 years to convince me I'm a pitiful failure of a man in every respect. I'm not; she knows it; and finally senses that she'd better come with her sword drawn and a deep weapons reserves to kill me... . cause I fight back. She's also finally fearful that I might actually leave. I'm successful, a caring human being, have many friends and reasonably attractive to quality women... . and it drives her nuts.

She's agreed to go into CBT therapy to address her violent behavior (she hits and then breaks things when she cant hit), her anger toward others (everyone!), her fear of abandonment (she admits to that), and, to manage the uncontrolled swings toward pathological hatred (after feeling utter devotion, worship and love for me). Forced? Yes. But she's doing it. Though two mental health professionals have diagnosed her with BPD, I have not accused her of it. It will be interesting to see what a third comes up with.

Anyone have success employing "hammer for a hammer" as a coping method? How about forced therapy as a threat and last resort.



If it fails, it simply becomes my last effort at saving our marriage and the woman that I have been devoted to and loved for decades in spite of the craziness.

[Surnia]

Mh, yes, it is in a way forced. Forced by actions and by boundaries. Which is in my eyes not a bad thing. Actions speaks louder than words. What you did, is taking care of yourself and not being co-dependet and enable her. Doing so can be a chance for a partner to make a turnaround.

I cannot say anything about success or not. Perhaps others have some opinions here. Hopefully she will follow the treatment. The next critical point will be when she has finished the CBT.

[rj47]

Interesting experience with pushing back. I employed passive non-engagement coping techniques for a very long time... . its simply who I am. Avoid arguing even if it means subverting one's self-worth. I believed that engaging the BP with equal intensity only fueled the rage. It does, but I found that stepping up my response without malice and only to counter force with force was startling to the point of sometimes shutting down the craziness or at least exhausting the "demon" much sooner. Her episodes sucked the life out of me anyway, so I thought to engage her at her own game. I had to quietly laugh inside when in a furious battle she suddenly said " honey you need to settle down, lets stop this now". It was a first in 25 years! I genuinely had been trying to employ recommended coping methods to get through episodes... . but it got progressively worse.

Maybe I'm fooling myself thinking I found a (counter intuitive) formula to shut down the dysregulated state by (in a sense) mirroring it.



Its early, but I wonder if anyone else has had success doing almost exactly the opposite of generally accepted coping methods.

Tomorrow is her first session. I never throw out the BPD label. Nevertheless, she found a book of mine about a year ago; marked it full of rebuttals; and, then proclaimed it was PTSD that she had. Whatever works. I have visions of her managing the conversation with a therapist away from anything related to PDs, but assume that any therapist with experience will identify the demon that haunts her. I still love her. And, although I'm an object of her contempt much of the time, she has so much anger with the world that I fear she may never be functional. Yet, I feel guilty for forcing it.

[adrianab]

I'm going through the same thing and after 11 years things may be getting better. I haven't been able to force therapy on her yet, but hope to do so soon. I read that DBT is better for dealing with BPD, a modified version of CBT. But let me know how it turns out, maybe I can learn from your experience.

[Seneca]

the passive thing reinforces bad behavior. i find with mine that the key is to defuse a crisis situation gently, but let there be repercussions later. part of the way the disorder has escalated for us, is to let his bad behavior go unchecked... . plainly, there are no consequences for him treating me like garbage. so i decided to stop turning the other cheek and set boundaries.

actually, our whole lifestyle is one big boundary now, as i told him in moments of peace and calm that i refuse to have a romantic relationship anymore. i laid out what i would do as part of the marriage contract, and what i would not do. (ie. continue to take care of our home and family, put up a good show for our children and the public. and i will not seek another r/s, hide money or do anything underhanded. etc) i told him he can have all of the benefits of having a partner, but he can't have my heart or my body anymore. i told him emphatically that he was not going to hurt me ANYMORE. i am friendly to him and supportive, but there is no way to demonstrate a boundary better than that. and truthfully, it is not a tactic... . it is how i feel. i love him very much, and i do fight myself not to fall into bed or intimacy with him, but it literally the only way to keep myself safe. this works for me. i highly recommend to anyone if you are in a r/s just for children, that you take the same tactic and stop trying to make a real marriage work with someone who is mentally incapable of being part of a real marriage. it is nothing but endless frustration.

[Seneca]

oh, and rj, forced therapy is like forced weight loss or forced sobriety. if you have any experience with those things, you'll see they won't work. here's an illustration:

a man walks up to a woman, puts a gun to her head and says "love me or i'll shoot you." to save her own life, she may say she loves him, try to act like it, but is there real love in her heart? love that comes from desire and the ability to choose? of course not! if you say, "get better or i'll leave you!", of course she will say anything or try anything to save the r/s, but once she sees you are mollified, she will quit or half ass it, and then go back to (ab)normal.

for treatment to work there has to be two things:

-acceptance and recognition that they have a problem and a desire to change that problem

- commitment to do the hard work of recovery

it does not sound like you are working with that

[rj47]

She ranted about it for 20 minutes before left this morning; "And, I'm doing this why? For you because I'm angry and you cannot deal with it? Forget about my years of chronic pain, illnesses and 30-years with you!" When she's stable she acknowledges that her behavior is absolutely unacceptable. The last few years her health has taken a terrible turn. She largely blames the congenital illnesses for the flare-up in her emotional state; and shes right in that they are a serious. Unfortunately the outlet has become near constant anger, physical violence, verbal abuse and; the sick lies she created and spun for several days for another man (after apparently stabilizing) about four months ago. I'm still in dismay. She's damaged her few remaining friendships; her family won't have anything to do with her (they've stopped responding to the apologies); and, she's shut herself in our home.

The last thing she offered heading out the door was; "maybe after the therapist learns all I've been dealing with and my 30-years with you, we'll decide that you're the source of my misery and I can finally leave!". If that's what she decides and its an opportunity for healing and happiness; that's fine. I'm mostly the worst man on the planet; but, when she's stable... . the most decent man that ever lived and she cannot live without me. I love her, will always support her. If from a distance as a friend, so be it. If she terminates the therapy; at least "we" tried.

[rj47]

actually, our whole lifestyle is one big boundary now, as i told him in moments of peace and calm that i refuse to have a romantic relationship anymore.

Seneca. I give you tremendous credit. I've tried that route at times but it always seemed to inflame the situation. She would give me a few days time to feel sorry for myself and "sulk" after a deep and chaotic episode. Then; she would determine it was time for the mourning to stop and I should "get over it" or a new argument would start.

As for the romance; the connection that was created 30-years ago was intense and has grown stronger and with more frequency over time. Sexual intimacy immediately defuses situations and has been a stabilizing influence. And, the most powerful trigger for an episode if I don't respond positively to overtures. As a man its a hard lever to refuse.

Thanks

[Seneca]

you are right, rj. *probably* easier because i'm a gal, and he is on libido suppressing meds.   but a couple things help:

- the realization that to really help someone with BPD, you must treat them like they are your child. (really, aren't so many of the behaviors juvenile? the fits and tantrums, the threats and black and white thinking. it's so... . teenage. and parenting him does not inspire a lot of romantic feelings in me

- the understanding that he is USING me to try and fill a void in his soul, his unformed sense of self. he doesn't really want me, or love me - just needs SOMEBODY to blame for feeling so badly. but what if there were nobody to blame? what if i set up a situation where i can no longer be his punching bag, yet he can't pursue somebody else? would he be forced to face the emptiness? maybe. either way, it is better for me... . so if it works for him to - yeah.

- this forum. i think it is probably a coping mechanism, but it seems like many of we spouses have the same ability to block out the bad times when everything is good. temporary amnesia, denial, hope - whatever. we tend to forget and keep going for it, hoping that THIS TIME will be different. so when he was all contrite and nice and caring this past week, i was pleasant to him, but came back to the forums frequently to read everyone's desperate stories, and remind myself of why i was saying "no more". and when he started dysregulating again, i was so happy and satisfied that i hadn't allowed him back into my heart and saved myself from that pain and disappointment.

[adrianab]

Hi Rj, reading your post I had to double check that it wasn't my own for a sec. They must all have the same script writer because I hear the exact words all the time. After many years of begging, threatening, persuading and maneuvering, and several failed attempts to get her to see a doctor (Once she actually walked out the hospital when it was finally our turn to see the doc after waiting for an hour), I finally managed it. But this was a medical doctor so that was something she could gradually accept - to put the blame on an illness, but if I ever bring up therapy or psychiatrist!

I guess deep down its the fear of finally admitting that the world isn't actually to blame but its actually themselves. I also get Seneca's point that forcing the issue may not work either. I cant use intimacy as a boundary, we used to have a very passionate relationship, but now that her testosterone is so low, she has zero libido, and probably as a guy its me that feels like I'm losing out, although I know it bothers her as well - probably like having an itch that cant be scratched.

I guess my strategy is somewhere in between, to be patient and wait for the good days and try to use those periods of sanity to convince her, although it also acts as a trigger and eventually sets her off. And on the bad days just leave her totally alone to self sooth and deal with the consequences of her negative actions.

My treatment plan is body, mind and soul. I managed to get the first doc out of the way, that deals with the body, so next is mind - a psychiatrist or therapist and then hopefully work on the soul, either through religion or yoga, something spiritual and calming. I'm making it up as I go along, and I'll be following this thread to see what tips I can learn from you, seems you've been at it a longer than I have and you have my respect!

[dontknow2]

rj47,

Mirroring did work in my case and frankly, was good for my growth. I joined my xdBPDh at his own game like you said. As an example, he used to be jealous over any tiny detail and extremely obsessive for over 17 years even when we weren't living together for most of those years (i.e. wouldn't take the kids overnight because that might give me freedom, call me 100x literally while out with a girl friend who he thinks might introduce me to someone). Well as the story goes, I tapped into my jealousy and deepest insecurities giving him a taste of his own medicine for about a year. His jealousy is completely gone now ~ vanished, caput!

Instead of asking respectfully like I did over the years, I started to fight him over things like his addictions, talking to me without putting me down, getting him to help around the house, etc... . getting crazy or yelling to make my points (yes mirroring again). All of the behaviors improved tremendously but had to address each one specifically. For example once I got to this level, I had to address the rolling of the eyes while talking to me first, then address how he would try to watch TV while I was talking, then address how he would change the subject, etc... He didn't relate one issue to the other on his own.

In addition to my own self-discovery, my thinking was that if his behavior could improve, then our relationship would be tolerable for me and within his life. This would give us both a window to make it another stretch while he got therapy to get to his root problem.

Yet, here were a few major problems for me:

I got so deep into his disordered thinking process to keep addressing his issues... . it took me a long time to get out. I got lost and was starting to have problems functioning in my life. Thankfully, almost all of it is gone now after he moved out again 6 months ago but therapy was required to get me through. Although this did help me feel more compassion for him and realize I had been suppressing some of it in me.

Yes, what I mirrored did improve. The problem is that there is so much. I got exhausted.

Even though I know some of it was good for me and gaining some of my dignity back, I started to resent myself again... . seriously thinking, when am I going to quit and realize my life is more important than doing this.

As the behaviors improved, the obviousness that he wasn't in love me and wasn't sexually attracted to me started to smack me in my face (even though some of this should have been obvious to me). The craziness kept me distracted for a long time plus I was addicted to his attention as screwed up as it was, and now was forcing me to face my own truths.

My ex moved out and says he will give up me and our boys before going to therapy. He has stuck with that for 1 year now.

I wish you all the love and strength you need. 

[rj47]

Yes, what I mirrored did improve. The problem is that there is so much. I got exhausted.

Even though I know some of it was good for me and gaining some of my dignity back, I started to resent myself again... . seriously thinking, when am I going to quit and realize my life is more important than doing this.

Dontknow2

Thank you. I know the feeling. Its 8pm and we have been at it since 7:30 this morning with a few breaks in between. Why? Because she thinks I was aroused at the sight of a woman we saw last night. I didn't even notice the woman. She's passed out on the couch from exhaustion. The episode will likely start up again tonight and into tomorrow night, maybe Tuesday. I resent her for pushing me into the mirroring behavior. Its not who I am. I'm simply not hard wired for combative abuse and unable to spew the kind viciousness that she uses. I'm exhausted, so after many hours I give up exhausted myself. I try to calm, validate, even apologize. It renergizes her rage... . I think she knows I'm losing resolve. But, tomorrow I will be stronger if she allows me to sleep through the night. She knows I am weakest late night/early morning. If she storms into our room at say 3:30am it will be ugly. But I will hang in there. I am so tired of it of this life as well.