depression and BPD and marriage counseling

[jadedcat]

My wife has BPD and severe depression. Has been treated for depression for over a decade now. Hospitalized twice in 2012 and went off meds entirely this summer, not to any improvement. Now on Effexor and following the steps to up the dosage, which is really causing all sort of health and mood problems. Most days she spends the overwhelming majority of the day in bed. She is not seeing a therapist, though she has in the past. She now wants us to go to a marriage counselor. She says we communicate poorly and that when she feels better I don't like her.

I'm concerned about counseling and wonder what others have experienced. I think the focus should be on herself and doing therapy herself. When she gets going she can talk rings around me and I worry about that. The BPD makes her really good at manipulating others.

Should I do it? Again, I worry that this is yet another distraction. Over the years, she has used reason after reason to explain her condition. What do people think?

[maxsterling]

Probably just an other distraction.  My dBPDgf seems to have a life pattern of needing things to "fix" her.  A few months ago, a therapist told her that if she is in a relationship, we should be doing couples counseling and not IC.  After a rage, I agreed, figuring at least it will give me an environment where I can say what is on my mind without fear of a rage and her hurting herself.  My IC and nearly every piece of advice I have read said DO NOT do couples counseling with an unstable person, as it will make the problem worse.  I was so desperate at that time that I didn't care.  If the counseling fixed things, great!  If it was a means to an end, great!

After 3 sessions with the first counselor, she wanted a new one because the counselor made some kind of comment regarding her needing to make herself whole and happy, to which my girlfriend interpreted as a criticism, and the therapist telling her she lacks an identity (which tells me she has heard others tell her that before).  She then declared this therapist must have crush on me and was flirting with me, so she sought out another one. 

So far, we have had two sessions with the new counselor, whom I will admit is more organized and trained than the first one.  The last session I listened to her vent about how she feels I am going to leave her, will never marry her, and that she is just sitting around waiting (basically screaming to the therapist - "I HAVE BPD!" without actually saying it).  And I opened up about how I can't even think about marriage because I am too worried about her killing herself and constantly making self harm statements, and the effect it has on me.  I broke down in tears. 

So maybe this will be a forum where I feel safe discussing relationship issues without fear of her raging or hurting herself.

I think my point to you is - don't expect anything.  Relationship issues won't get fixed until she fixes her own issues first.  This may calm her for awhile, but in the end unless she addresses her root causes, you may feel like the MC is just wheels spinning in the mud.

[Seneca]

we tried for 8 months several years ago. horrible experience, no benefits. as soon as the therapist caught on that he had a warped reality, he became very uncooperative and quit. couples therapy is a waste of time with a PD person. sorry :-(

[karma_gal]

Would she be agreeable to both of you seeking therapy independently? It sounds like she definitely could use some on her own even if only for the depression issues initially.

My H and I have tried marriage counseling more times than I can count and it has been utterly pointless.  In all instances he has blatantly lied to the T about what is going on even if I produce one of the many recordings otherwise. He tried to dominate the sessions with his victim BS and paint me black as I sat there. The Ts will see this and confront him on what does he think his contribution is and he swears nothing so they push. When I articulate my concerns the T will start asking him about it. Once they tell him that his behavior is an issue he is done and won't go back to that therapist sure that myself and the therapist are out to get him.

Regarding communication I think this is again projection because it doesn't seem any of them have the ability to communicate effectively. And how could they when their reality is so warped, they can't take responsibility for anything, gaslight blame shift and flat out deny anything else. With that there cannot be effective communication period. I think it is just a ruse they use to get us none to agree to therapy - because we know there are communication issues - and then once we get there they use it to present their victim side if things to see if they can get the T to say we are the problem. They then use that against us "even the T said you... . "

As I told my husband last night we are never going to resolve anything because he has the coping and communication skills of a monkey. I am tired of paying $100 an hour and getting nowhere with therapy with him. He doesn't want to communicate effectively is the bottom line. He wants me to take his verbal abuse accept blame for everything and he uses therapy to get the T to explain to me why that would solve our problem. When that doesn't work he quits and we begin again.

Anyway I think the general consensus of folks here books and even some therapists I have seen on my own is that marital counsel when one partner has a PD or is unstable is useless and often creates more problems as they triangulate with the T and abuse any tools that are taught.

Ask yourself: do you have problems communicating with anyone else? My guess is probably not.

Again I think if she is pushing for therapy IC would be much more productive.

[maxen]

She says we communicate poorly and that when she feels better I don't like her.

er ... are you married to my wife too? that's a quote from her you typed there.

we tried 3 MCs. the first two were ineffective, we agreed. the third one she liked, i didn't, so i stopped going. there were three problems imo. 1: i didn't see that we needed a marriage counselor. all that was needed was for my wife to stop acting like a helpless baby and start acting her age. what's to discuss in that? 2: the dynamic was the same in MC as it was at home. i'd raise an issue and my wife would backbite and then i'd JADE. but i couldn't step back and recognize and articulate that pattern while it was happening, i just got frustrated, and that was counterproductive. 3: i had the distinct impression that this third MC was gender-bigoted, and this didn't give confidence, and other evidence gives me to think i was right not to be confident.

as others have said, pwBPD have an impossibly hard time opening up and examining themselves. it's a bit cruel to say that they have no self to examine, though that may be true. my wife had accomplishments and tastes and interests, but in her core she is clearly looking for someone to set the emotional agenda and take the emotional responsibility. i wouldn't do that. if that's what your wife wants too jadedcat then no amount of MC will be much good.

[karma_gal]

She says we communicate poorly and that when she feels better I don't like her.

er ... are you married to my wife too? that's a quote from her you typed there.

we tried 3 MCs. the first two were ineffective, we agreed. the third one she liked, i didn't, so i stopped going. there were three problems imo. 1: i didn't see that we needed a marriage counselor. all that was needed was for my wife to stop acting like a helpless baby and start acting her age. what's to discuss in that? 2: the dynamic was the same in MC as it was at home. i'd raise an issue and my wife would backbite and then i'd JADE. but i couldn't step back and recognize and articulate that pattern while it was happening, i just got frustrated, and that was counterproductive. 3: i had the distinct impression that this third MC was gender-bigoted, and this didn't give confidence, and other evidence gives me to think i was right not to be confident.

as others have said, pwBPD have an impossibly hard time opening up and examining themselves. it's a bit cruel to say that they have no self to examine, though that may be true. my wife had accomplishments and tastes and interests, but in her core she is clearly looking for someone to set the emotional agenda and take the emotional responsibility. i wouldn't do that. if that's what your wife wants too jadedcat then no amount of MC will be much good.

See, this is why I love reading your posts.  You are always so dead-on in your assessment of things.  The bolded part a million times over is why MC won't work. 

I found the other part to be true, though, too, where the same dynamic would play out in therapy as it did at home, and I spent so much time trying to defend myself against his lies and distortions that the hour would go by and nothing would be accomplished except now we were both angry as hell and that spilled over into the days following the session.  I had one MC tell me, privately, that she didn't think it would be a good idea to continue seeing us together because we were never going to make progress because he couldn't take responsibility for anything.  She said she would see me individually, but that he was pretty much a lost cause.  In fact, she was a Catholic counselor -- I am Catholic, H is not -- and said she almost never recommends divorce, but told me it was in my best interest because he would never change. 

There may be some great MC out there, but I haven't found one yet that is equipped and has enough expertise to deal with the issues that are prevalent in a marriage where one partner has BPD.  It is just so out of their league, and most seem to have a rote set of tools that they recommend, and those tools don't work in these kinds of relationships.  They are geared toward more healthy, stable people, and we aren't working with that, unfortunately. 

I remember my H loved one of our counselors.  He was a man, had been divorced a few times and he came "highly recommended" from one of the guys at my H's job.  He was the perfect therapist for a man who hated his wife, because it was clear this guy hated women, period.  You could feel the hate oozing out of him when he addressed me at our initial visit.  He would roll his eyes, laugh out loud, slap his knee.  WOW I hated him.  Of course, I refused to go back.  I'm not paying anyone $100 an hour to treat me like that when I get it for free at home.  To this day my H throws it up in my face because I refused to go back to the therapist he picked, and so now he refuses to go to any therapist I pick.  There's no winning.     

[jadedcat]

So far, we have had two sessions with the new counselor, whom I will admit is more organized and trained than the first one.  The last session I listened to her vent about how she feels I am going to leave her, will never marry her, and that she is just sitting around waiting (basically screaming to the therapist - "I HAVE BPD!" without actually saying it).  And I opened up about how I can't even think about marriage because I am too worried about her killing herself and constantly making self harm statements, and the effect it has on me.  I broke down in tears. 

The last time we did counseling together, I had that realization: she constantly claimed that I was not doing the right or proper things to prove my commitment to her. Still. Been together 14 years and married three. But each day I went off to work and had trouble reaching her on her cell phone, I wondered if she had done anything to herself. Suicide has been talked about a lot over the years. But I have been there, every day, committed. I work two jobs and do the majority of the housework. Isn't her behavior (and I realize she is not being manipulative with suicide talk, it's her depression talking) the bigger commitment issue? Hello, you can't tell me you'll be alive tomorrow!

Sorry for venting a bit, but what you wrote above is what happened the last time we went to a therapist together. The other thing that happened is that since my wife is a much smoother oral communicator than I, we spent the majority of the sessions discussing how I had let her down, or was failing as a partner.

So, it is a distraction. We have tried numerous things. She and her daughter moved out once, to live on her own, because the stress of being with someone and with my kids was too much, but she found on her own that she was still depressed and that it was even harder without me around to help keeps things going when she couldn't get out of bed.

I wish I knew what to do.

[maxsterling]

Thanks, jaded.  I never thought of it that way, but it make sense.  Maybe subconsciously that is what I need to move forward, a feeling that she is committed to me.  After all, who would want to marry if they don't have a gut feeling that it is going to last forever?  Her saying she is here because of me, that she would kill herself if not for me, or that I "saved her life" may sound like she is committed, but I think that language has the opposite affect on me.  On a basic level, that means that *I* am the only reason for anything good in her life, and she is only committed based upon what *I* am doing or not doing.  A huge emotional burden.  That means if something changes in that dynamic, she's gone.  She's not committed to me, she's committed to me "saving" her. 

Much to think about.

[jadedcat]

On a basic level, that means that *I* am the only reason for anything good in her life, and she is only committed based upon what *I* am doing or not doing.  A huge emotional burden.  That means if something changes in that dynamic, she's gone.  She's not committed to me, she's committed to me "saving" her. 

Much to think about.

It's a huge burden. My wife has always said that her daughter's welfare was what kept her fighting and not giving up. But her daughter has grown up now and is off at college. Has me worried about the next really down period and how my wife will cope.

But I do feel that "burden" too. It comes through loud and clear when we do talk and she finds something I have done or not done to focus on as a demonstration of my lack of commitment or proof that I do not love her. It really is a manipulation - subconscious or not - to keep me making an effort. I'm supposed to think that if I only do this ONE next thing, she will be happy and cured. Of course, as soon as I can clear that hurdle, there will be another. We clear them, we make the effort, because we want the person to heal. But our behaviors and actions ultimately won't be what heals them. That has to happen internally.