Lies

[raytamtay3]

In an effort to avoid meeting the capacity under my other topic, I decided to start a new topic.  My daughter is no-stop lying now. An example of this is:  We have deal whereby if she cleans up after herself, vacuums the house twice a week and cleans up her room (because mind you, she is on homebound instruction), she will have the priviledge of having full access of her cell phone.

Two days ago she text'd me a picture showing a portion of her room which appeared to be cleaned up and told me she vaccumed. This after being without a phone for 3 days for not doing as agreed.  So before I got home to inspect, I turn her phone back on (the beauty of parental controls and my only leverage at this point). When I get home the part of her room that she took a picture of (her bed and a portion of carpet) was cleaned up. But the rest was not (old cups, plates with dried food, clothes strewn about the floor). Also when reviewing the video footage (as mentioned we installed cameras in the living room, kitchen, and outside) it shows DD pushing the vacuum around... . without turning it on! So once again, she got over on me and once again, I turned off her phone. And the deal now is her phone will not be turned on until I physically inspect. Yesterday she left the house a mess when I got home so phone is off. However, yesterday she text me (I have time restrictions set up so that I am on the "trusted" contact list so she can communicate with me and visa versa).

She said how she walked all the way to her friend's house in the cold (2 miles away) and that her friend "isn't home so could I please turn on her phone so she can call her because I can't find my house key". I said "sorry, no". She said "so you are going to make me wait out in the cold for 3 hours (until I got home from work)"? I said "yup".  She then said "F U I was lying anyway". And she was. She text'd me 5 minutes after she left the house judging by the video recording.

Yesterday on the way home from work, our main street was blocked off with cop cars and I was detoured. When I asked my DD if she knew what happened, she said 4 people were shot as part of some drug thing. Thinking it were true, I asked her to now ask herself if it's worth it (the drugs). She replied yup.) She than text'd an hour later to say she was kidding, that it was an explosion. Turns out is was a leak but that she may not have known.

Constant lies.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Being Mindful]

Hi Ray, Yes the lies can drive us crazy. I'm wondering if you have found useful tools on the sidebar? If not I'd encourage you to take a look. Your situation sounds so familiar to mine of several years ago. Once I understood my value based boundaries, I could then better focus on validation, SET, detaching with love, communicating. Really though, understanding value based boundaries changed things for me. I'm so happy I finally understood how the change had to begin with me. It was these changes that helped my d. to change. She is now much older and while she still struggles I can happily say we have a good relationship and she goes in long streaks of being stable.

[Thursday]

Simple advice that you have already figured out- never grant permission based on actions until you are SATISFIED with the actions.

"OK, you room looks good but I need to see this for myself when I get home before I can turn on your phone."

So many times SD would be CLOSE to finishing a task, would ask us to look at her work and make promises to complete. We would leave to go do something but grant permission for what she was requesting before we left. And guess what? The effort ended as soon as she had gotten what she wanted. We let go of our expectation that she would be conscientious.

We got some great advice about the non-stop lying from a councilor when she was 18. He told us the lying would be lessened when she had less to lie about. Back then, her entire existence was something she felt she had to cover up... . where she was going, how far, how long, who she was with, what they were doing, were parents there, was she staying where we dropped her off. What she did with her phone, what she did at school, her homework, her laundry, if she showered. We had to sort of look at the big picture and ask ourselves, is it even worth worrying about her hygiene?

So we quit asking questions that lead her to a lie if it was not a concerning type of issue- like safety.

But for sure,  I know, how gross is it to have a kid who hasn't had a shower for two weeks? I even used to mark the soap with a paper clip and draw a line on the shampoo bottle. So much effort, so many lies told and all I had to do was let her be dirty enough that some boy would say something negative to her about her smell and she would be quick to shower as soon as she could. Part of it was to quit nit-picking. Accepting something a bit to the left of normal helped her to be more normal instead of being 24-7 dis-regulated and arguing with her Dad and me.

The tools to the left really do work, especially when you take the push and pull of your dissatisfaction with the lies out of the discussion. If you are like me, you will never be ok with the lies but once I pulled myself out of that dynamic where I was wanting her to understand that I knew she was lying and needed to prove it (marking the soap), but what was better for both of us was to just leave her to feel the natural consequences whenever possible.

Good luck with it all.

thursday

[BioAdoptMom3]

Thank you raytamtay3 for starting this thread and to those of you who shared advice!  You have been very helpful to me tonight  !

[crumblingdad]

Agree with the previous posters on the value based boundaries and detaching with love to the extent that natural consequences take their own course unless it's a safety issue.

When they turn the crazy stories on us as to how they will suffer and why it's our fault that our boundary is so cruel and unusual and a result of our own poor parenting that we are ruining their lives!  None of us have heard that huh?  

So in time just learned that the response is to validate their feelings.  Keep to the boundary and explain why the boundary must remain and reiterate the consequences if the boundary is violated.  We typically always follow that with a reminder of our unconditional love and that we/I are doing it right, wrong or indifferent because we love her and her safety is our priority whether the boundary is a "mistake" in her eyes or not.  

And most importantly - find a safe place to abandon ship before engaging into a fight/argument you CANNOT win and don't be afraid to have a "safe haven" to retreat and explain to your child you need to stop discussing it.  Had a great therapist who explained with her teenage kids she had a lock on her bedroom and lock on her master bath in the bedroom with a large pile of magazines and would often retreat there to read mags and call a friend who understood the situation so she could vent and catch a breath rather then engage in a senseless no-win argument with her unregulated child.


I personally struggled with the validation and found I do best by responding to my dd's feelings by asking questions to clarify  whatever it is she's saying - so if it's something along the lines of "if you and mom weren't so stupid and hadn't shut off my phone then I wouldn't have ended up having to get pissed off and leave the house when I wasn't supposed to so that I could go see my friend who got me high?  It's amazing the difference between when I'd defend that with a "how could you say this is MY fault with everything I've done for you?" or ":)on't you realize how ridiculous what you're saying is?"

Instead I now just might say "So do you feel it's my fault you got high?"  or "Well I'm sorry you feel my decisions caused all that, sounds like you had a rough time, what boundary do you suggest if not the cell phone?

Its amazing how quickly that can often defuse what otherwise would've been an explosion and I can still stick to the original boundary and/or consequence.

[Thursday]

crumblingdad sez-

And most importantly - find a safe place to abandon ship before engaging into a fight/argument you CANNOT win and don't be afraid to have a "safe haven" to retreat and explain to your child you need to stop discussing it.  Had a great therapist who explained with her teenage kids she had a lock on her bedroom and lock on her master bath in the bedroom with a large pile of magazines and would often retreat there to read mags and call a friend who understood the situation so she could vent and catch a breath rather then engage in a senseless no-win argument with her unregulated child

In our old house I had a walk in closet with a door that locked. I used to hide in the closet after locking the bedroom door and the closet door locks because then I couldn't hear her stomping around the house because she didn't get a yes answer when she wanted something. I kept a phone charger and a pile of magazines in there. I called it "the condo" because I had what I called a Condo Fantasy about moving into my own place (this was shortly after we all started living together... . her Dad, me and SD)

I had forgotten all about that! See... . things can get soo much better!

thursday

[js friend]

Raytamtay,

My dd19 has been telling lies since she was 3yo and I think that has just become her way now although I have noticed and have said it in another thread somewhere that im sure that my dd19 lies a lot less now... . I dont know how I can make a comparison between the age of 14yo when she was at her worse and now... . but I just feel that she lies less now she is out from under my roof and can pretty much do as she pleases.

So infurating when you are going through it though that we cant belive a word they say. I remember dd bemoaning to t  when she was 15yo  that I never showed any interest in what she did as I never asked her questions, to which my response was that dd told so many lies  at the time so what would be the point.  And the lenghts she would go to convince me of her lies, and cover her tracks were really ridicoulus sometimes. It would be lovely to just have one day wothout the lies wouldnt it? And yeh my dd is good at pointing out other peoples failings or inconsitences, but wont look at her own keeping  every text or email she recieves so she can say "you said this or that" on any particular day yet no-one is allowed to point out her own failings.

I found her lies  so upseting but No one seemed to understand just how awful it is to live with someone who lies so much until I found these boards  

for my own self perservation I had to  shutdown towards even listening to what came out of dd's mouth  which made converstaions between us very limited. What is there to talk about when a person doesnt share information with you truthfully. I still feel sad about this. Sad that dd and I wont ever have a proper mother and daughter r/s which involves honesty and trust. .Iam still not comfortable with it, but find it less upsetting now when I hear that dd has told yet another lie. Now am at the point of Radical Acceptance with my dd and this has helped me a lot. 


And yeh. Lack of seeing jobs through was always a big one in out household too. I think my dd often thought she was just above doing anything around our home. If I wasnt there to see it get done dd wouldnt do it unless it was her own room... . and that would be only if she had friends coming over.  Also had the lack of showers and lack of hygiene stuff too. Bedroom was often a pigsty, but I noticed it would often be at it worse when she was in down phase of her cycle. I still see it now when I go over there and I know that when the place is a mess dd is often feeling that way too. Depressions limits dd in taking care of herself.  usually this is the time she says she gets lots of headaches and feels tired all the time stays up all night and get very little sleep. When she was manic thats often the time when she would make the effort of taking long showers, changing clothes frequently,makeup and the works!

And of course Yes male interest, or rather dd being interested in a male would often trigger the mania!




[/quote]

[raytamtay3]

Thanks everyone. Yes I do have to read the tools to the right.

Last night DD came home early (9 which is early for her). I had a feeling something was up. Usually when she comes home she changes into PJs and takes off her makeup But by 11:00 I she hadn't and commented. She replied "why do you always think I'm up to something". I didn't answer. Low and behold, around 12 am she said she was going outside to smoke a cigerett and took off for the rest of the night. I didn't call the police and I didn't go out looking for her either.  All of her belongings are still at home and she had mentioned how a girlfriend of hers was having a hard time. Apparently her SD got really rough with her and so she took off to her grandparent's house. I'm guessing DD went along. We weren't even arguing or anything. Yes a major safety issues once again.

We are suppose to meet with the lawyer tonight after work. I'm curious to see if she comes home for it. I've been reminding her and did again last night.

Oh and she came home Sunday night with red hair. She had blonde and dyed it over her friends. It looks horrible. I told her how it wasn't a good idea to alter her appearance before court, which is this Wednesday b/t/w.

[Being Mindful]

Hi Ray, I am very concerned for your daughter and you. She is 14, correct? Please, please read the tools on the right. Your daughter needs to know that you will do whatever you have to do to keep her safe. Have you had a chance to start researching facilities or funding? Being Mindful

[raytamtay3]

Hi Ray, I am very concerned for your daughter and you. She is 14, correct? Please, please read the tools on the right. Your daughter needs to know that you will do whatever you have to do to keep her safe. Have you had a chance to start researching facilities or funding? Being Mindful

Yes, she is 14 (looks 20). No, I haven't had the chance to research facilities or funding yet.

She told me yesterday that she is no longer mad at me, that she is just "done". Whatever that means. I do worry about her. God knows where she is and who she is with. I'm so afraid that one day I will get that knock at the door. It's like I'm just waiting... .

[Being Mindful]

Do you have a plan if she doesn't show for the appointment?

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[raytamtay3]

No because the lawyer just canceled it. Said we can meet day of court. Not happy with him either.

[raytamtay3]

I called her one friend, who was the last one she text'd before I shut of her phone last night, and she said she isn't with her. So I'm going to do as the police said last time (call her friends ) and then I'm calling them yet again.

[raytamtay3]

DD resurfaced yesterday at 9:00 PM just as I was getting ready to call the cops after checking the two places I thought she might be and her not being there. I asked her if she wanted to explain herself. She said no as she stumbled in to the kitchen to raid the fridge. Totally wasted.

So today I told her the consquence for her antics of Sunday night are her phone priviledges being revoked for 3 days and during that time, she still cleans up after herself of for each day she doesn't, another day is tact on.  She said f u, if you turn off my phone I'm taking off and you will never see me again.

So my question is, if she doesn't show up for court tomorrow, with her being only 14, would like still issue a bench warrant? Please say yes.

[PaulaJeanne]

I don't know the answer to your question, but I hope it's yes also. In New York, where we live, there's something you can get from the court called a PINS (person in need of supervision). When you can't control your child, it puts decision making in the hands of the court. It's not criminal, but if the child breaks rules, the judge can decide to put them in detention. It takes the punishment part of it out of the parents' hands. I never did it, but my daughter was in many programs where some of the other parents did this, particularly the single mothers who were trying to handle this all by themselves.

I was absolutely unable to punish my child. Taking away phone privileges would just punish me. She'd leave anyway, & I'd have absolutely NO WAY to track her or get in touch (not that she'd answer my calls or texts). I grounded her in her third floor bedroom, and she shimmied down the chimney in the pouring rain & escaped.

When she was out with her cell phone, I could log onto my account with my carrier & see what numbers she'd been calling and texting. Sometimes I was so frantic, I'd send out a mass text to anyone my daughter had been in contact with asking if they knew where she was. I didn't identify myself, & sometimes I'd get a response. I'm not really recommending this. It's just something I did, and it didn't really make me feel any better.

[Rapt Reader]

So my question is, if she doesn't show up for court tomorrow, with her being only 14, would like still issue a bench warrant? Please say yes.

I'm not sure what would happen in your state, either, but maybe the lawyer can tell you? You may want to call him and give him a heads-up regardless, as to what has been going on, so that there can be some sort of game plan and he's not blind-sided at the court session tomorrow if she does take off. At least that's what I would do... .

So, at this point, is there any talk of having her go to some sort of Residential Treatment or Dual Diagnosis Center instead of detention in the juvenile system? The lawyer and Social Services (any sort of Therapist, Counselor, etc.) have been unwilling to help with this? As a 14 year-old, I would think there would be some help or leverage available to make her comply with some sort of Inpatient program. I suppose if she doesn't make the court date, you would then have some amount of leverage over her. Have you checked out this link yet? Therapy methods and inpatient/outpatient venues

I would be calling every County or State Mental Health Service in my location for help; there has got to be help available somehow... . At least that's been my experience in all my years dealing with my BPD son. This link could help you with that if Google or your Yellow Pages don't: Find your local NAMI (National Alliance on Mental Health)

Doing this kind of research when I felt my life circling around me in a bad way, when my own son was self-destructing, is what helped me concentrate and get through it all. Putting one step in front of the other no matter what, you know? Keep us posted, raytamtay3, OK? We are all rooting for you 

[Being Mindful]

Ditto to what Rapt wrote.

Your daughter is not safe and needs help... . more than what you can provide at home.

It's difficult for sure and we are here to support you.

Being Mindful