I really want to leave but worried about the kids

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

This is my first post so bear with me as I try to describe a life of craziness in a couple paragraphs.  We have 5 year old twins and only recently did I finally feel like I have a good grasp on her disorder.  Before the kids, I always felt like things were not exactly normal but that I could be better, make it better, and that as long as she had a healthy mental state then we could get through any difficulties. 

Except, after we had kids did I finally realize we have a very big problem.  From the first year the twins have been born, she has been raging, yelling, happy, sad, threatening to leave, threatening suicide, unable to get along with anyone, complaining constantly of some medical illness, hates my family, hates her family, hates the neighbors, hates my job, hates our life, slamming the bedroom door, kicking her foot through the bedroom door and walls, breaking things, sending me to the emergency room as a result of her rage, cops showing up at the door several times, throwing things across the room, spending money and leaving us in huge amounts of debt but it is too stressful for her to talk about, and hundreds of hours blaming me for things I did, and blaming me for things that actually she does but says I did.   I could go on and on!  But I am tired!  The part that worries me most is the kids growing up to be her(they already act like her at times when they are angry and saying the same things as her which involves profanity and slamming doors and blaming me) and my physical health.  When she starts yelling me and blaming me, my stomach literally starts making all kinds of noises.  I can only imagine the stress on my body this person is having on my health.  I am seeing a psychologist but after 4 appointments I feel like he does not want to deal with this mess.  I am only presuming that because he is not processing my insurance claim after I have reminded him for a month and will not reschedule until he does.  I have told our family physician with no luck. I realize that I need help to deal with this problem that my wife refuses to acknowledge.  Unfortunately, my wife is light years away from realizing she has a problem that I believe predates her parents but can't be certain.  She is currently on a tacklebox full of medicine including medicine for depression 

So how can this board help?  Tell me what to do next.  I have talked to a lawyer and because my job involves travel they tell me that it is very unlikely I will get custody.  I am also very afraid and have good reason to believe that she will lie and say whatever she has to so that she can take the kids out of state and make my life a living hell for a very long time.  So can anyone give me hope?  I have already read on this board and feel very strongly that I have a codependency problem.  Oh, I also called the national domestic violence hotline out of desperation and called the number they referred me to but that provided no help.  I cannot believe I am in this situation and it is so bad but I feel like I am exhausting all my resources.

[justaboutdone]

This is my first post so bear with me as I try to describe a life of craziness in a couple paragraphs.  We have 5 year old twins and only recently did I finally feel like I have a good grasp on her disorder.  Before the kids, I always felt like things were not exactly normal but that I could be better, make it better, and that as long as she had a healthy mental state then we could get through any difficulties. 

Except, after we had kids did I finally realize we have a very big problem.  From the first year the twins have been born, she has been raging, yelling, happy, sad, threatening to leave, threatening suicide, unable to get along with anyone, complaining constantly of some medical illness, hates my family, hates her family, hates the neighbors, hates my job, hates our life, slamming the bedroom door, kicking her foot through the bedroom door and walls, breaking things, sending me to the emergency room as a result of her rage, cops showing up at the door several times, throwing things across the room, spending money and leaving us in huge amounts of debt but it is too stressful for her to talk about, and hundreds of hours blaming me for things I did, and blaming me for things that actually she does but says I did.   I could go on and on!  But I am tired!  The part that worries me most is the kids growing up to be her(they already act like her at times when they are angry and saying the same things as her which involves profanity and slamming doors and blaming me) and my physical health.  When she starts yelling me and blaming me, my stomach literally starts making all kinds of noises.  I can only imagine the stress on my body this person is having on my health.  I am seeing a psychologist but after 4 appointments I feel like he does not want to deal with this mess.  I am only presuming that because he is not processing my insurance claim after I have reminded him for a month and will not reschedule until he does.  I have told our family physician with no luck. I realize that I need help to deal with this problem that my wife refuses to acknowledge.  Unfortunately, my wife is light years away from realizing she has a problem that I believe predates her parents but can't be certain.  She is currently on a tacklebox full of medicine including medicine for depression 

So how can this board help?  Tell me what to do next.  I have talked to a lawyer and because my job involves travel they tell me that it is very unlikely I will get custody.  I am also very afraid and have good reason to believe that she will lie and say whatever she has to so that she can take the kids out of state and make my life a living hell for a very long time.  So can anyone give me hope?  I have already read on this board and feel very strongly that I have a codependency problem.  Oh, I also called the national domestic violence hotline out of desperation and called the number they referred me to but that provided no help.  I cannot believe I am in this situation and it is so bad but I feel like I am exhausting all my resources.

[ForeverDad]

Sounds like my ex before we separated and divorced.  Sounds like a lot of ex's of us here. :'(

One thing I did, once I realized there was nothing I could do to hold the shreds of our marriage together was to start documenting her poor behaviors.  I didn't tell her, I just bought a voice recorder.  Eventually I had three because I was terrified of dead batteries or full memories.  Both happened anyway.

Come to think of it, I did let her know once.  I had the video camera on for a few minutes while she was ranting, raging, moaning and groaning and slamming doors.  I left it out and when I came home the next day I found the cassette broken open and the tape ripped to shreds.  She never said I word, just let me find the heap at the foot of the bed and let me throw it out.  Sadly - and predictably - it didn't impact her positively, the rants and rages didn't end.

The marriage imploded a few months later when I called the police after she had made death threats.

About your marriage, if she would have responded positively she would have had years before now to do so.  Unless she starts serious therapy and sticks with it for months and years, then  improvement is unlikely.  I would suggest you document her poor behaviors.  Later, after you've separated, you won't have that option to document as you can now.  Especially important are her threats to harm herself or others, especially if it is the children.  Court won't be too worried about her adult behaviors (how she treats you), what the courts care more about are her parenting behaviors - abuse, neglect or endangerment.  If she threatens suicide, that means a lot since it could indicate she is not stable enough to have the responsibility of custody and perhaps even significant parenting.  That's why you should document it before you leave.  Later she will deny it all.  Count on it, that's why if you can (quietly) get that sort of documentation, then it may help swing the case a little bit in your favor.  Denial, blaming and false allegations to deflect attention from her are her friends.  And many of the professionals will likely accept her denials.  Not right, but that's how it is all too often.

[sfbayjed]

I agree that it is very important to start documenting. Find out if you can legally record with one parties consent, if that is the case you can use them as evidence (I think). If it is a two party consent state record anyway to protect yourself from false accusations. 

This is really happening, you and your children are in a survival situation. Try to be strong in front of your children, you are all they have, freak out at night or in the shower if you have too.  Your kids need you, it might be a bad idea to leave them there, what do you think would happen if you wernt there? Do you think they will be safe. In her state you also run the risk of her making something up and being thrown in jail for something you didn't do. You are in a very bad situation,  that is the nuts and bolts of it. If you can have a relative move in (these are desperate times). The best therapy for you is going to be  getting lots and lots of exercise.   I do think you will need long term therapy but right now it wont seem like it helps much anyway so don't use the fact that you cant get an appointment keep you from being proactive.  IF you just couldn't do anything for awhile because your too stressed, forgive yourself and start now.



How much do you travel, if that's an issue, look for a job where you don't have to travel. Nothing about this will be easy.

[catnap]

Start gathering your evidence including police reports. 

Book recommendation: Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder by Bill Eddy

He includes a chapter on how to find a high-conflict attorney including questions to ask during a consultation. 

Have you thought about Googling for a therapist in your area that has experience helping people that have a disordered person in their lives. 

[livednlearned]

It helps to get consultations from a handful of lawyers, at least 2. How much do you travel? I can't believe court wouldn't give you custody just because you travel. I'm dating someone who works 3 weeks straight, then two weeks off, then he'll work a week and then have 5 days off, etc. His custody schedule says he gets the kids when he isn't working. Mind you, his ex isn't BPD, but the point is that courts want kids to spend time with both parents and if you ask for a schedule that fits with your schedule, you will at least get something. I'd go consult with another attorney and see if you get the same answer. It just doesn't sound right.

You may not get sole or full custody, but that's not easy to do for any parent. Things have to be pretty bad, or at least well documented.

Do you think the lawyer meant primary custody? If so, that doesn't mean that you don't get some custody. Some of the custody language is just semantics. For example, in my state, primary physical custody has limited impact on what a parent can or can't do. I started out with primary physical and joint legal, and a 60/40 visitation schedule. That meant I had to get N/BPDx husband to agree to decisions about where S12 went to school, whether to medicate his ADHD, and counseling for S12. The primary physical custody meant very little. And in some states, joint legal just means you have access to medical, education records, but decision-making is carved out. So I could've had primary physical, joint legal, and the sole decision-making.

It makes your head ache, especially when stress is really high. But it's important to get clear about it so you can work out a good strategy with your lawyer.

[justaboutdone]

Thank you for all the recommendations and support. I will definitely follow the advice and already have done some of the advice mentioned above. I have followed through with the psychologist and will not give up on that.  Right now he is way too valuable. It has been three weeks since I have met with him because I don't want to schedule another appointment until I know that my first four appts will be covered by insurance. I am absolutely glad I go because he confirms what I am thinking and keeps my logic from getting skewed by my wife's thinking. I am curious for those who have seen a psychologist about a spouse's BPD. What can a psychologist do for someone who has a spouse with BPD?  How is a psychologist who has experience with BPD different from one who does not?

As far as my travel, I spend about 12 days a month out of town. My travel is usually 4 day stretches about 3 times a month. I have met with three lawyers and they have all told me the same thing about custody. I am in Ohio. My family is from Ohio and her family lives several states away. The thought of her having to live in Ohio(she hates ohio a lot but actually she has hated everywhere we have lived) because we divorced would cause her to make some unprecedented decisions that would involve a lot of lying. Actually, she is going to be making all kinds of lies after she hears the accusations I will be making.

[momtara]

I will echo the others.  Start recording, build your case.  You don't have to leave this very minute, so be smart and careful.

[ForeverDad]

There are a few Buckeyes on here, myself included.  Actually I live near a creek with a grove of buckeye trees.  They're a strange tree, limbs very pliable and springy, their wood is not that hard yet they can grow 40-60 feet, I almost think of them as a primordial tree.  Buckeyes fall in late September or early October.  I got a huge bucketful a few years ago after a windstorm but they were slightly green and many got moldy since I didn't think to keep them ventilated.  I throw them around the neighborhood, help the squirrels spread them around.

An inexperienced therapist or psychologist can be fooled, even manipulated by a pwBPD and if seeing you could even pooh-pooh your experiences as exaggerated or impossible.  It's been said that even an experienced therapist can only handle one BPD patient at a time.  It's been said that sometimes even the therapist sees a therapist.

It's easy for a professional to say he/she is experienced, can handle 'high conflict' cases, but there's a vast difference between saying and actually doing.

I just heard this from my lawyer, that ex's lawyer told my lawyer that the highlight of his career will be when this case is over.  (We just completed some 17 months in a Modification of Parenting Time case.  I started it in July 2012 and the court didn't declare the decision Final until just last week.  It spanned 3 calendar years!)

[DreamFlyer99]

Justaboutdone,

the way you described how your wife acts is similar to how my undiagnosed husband has acted at times. The thing I've seen is that it's really him he hates at the moment, not that I'm excusing the behavior, just something that helps me take it less personally. That saves on my stress level when I can look at it that way.

I've found incredible help in my therapist. She's helped me learn to get my head out of the FOG of fear, obligation and guilt, and look at things honestly. That's helped me to focus on what I need to do rather than get caught up in that cycle that can happen when a pwBPD is acting out and blaming everyone else rather than taking responsibility. My work with my T has helped me step out of the stress in a way, and be more proactive.

There've been several mentions of documentation-- it's important if you are documenting events and behaviors to be very factual. The courts aren't as interested in how you felt about what they did, they will judge by the severity of your SO's behavior or endangerment of you and the children and even herself. If written, just put things like the date and time and "The children were in the room watching television. Their mother was calling me names loudly then picked up the lamp from the end table and threw it at my head." Then include the children's reaction. That sort of "just the facts, ma'am" reporting.

It's sad that it needs to be done... . but often outsiders can't believe it if you're just telling them that she yells a lot or vague things like that.

I'm glad you're taking hold of the situation, both for yourself and for your kids!

I often wonder how my life would have been different if my parents had separated and I'd gone with only one of them, rather than keeping me in the middle of an alcoholic and a personality disordered person.

[ForeverDad]

A common problem is that while many people will see that the pwBPD/NPD/xPD is a little bit 'off' or 'high maintenance' or 'difficult' or some other mild description, they don't see what happens when no outsiders are around.  The worst of the behaviors will occur in private settings without witnesses such as at home or while driving in vehicles.  To a large extent it's because they feel they control those situations and feel it's okay to let their dysregulated emotions loose.

That's another reason besides self-protection and legal documentation why I recorded at least some of the incidents.  No one believed what I was going through until they actually heard it.  (Note that only relatively few people heard them, I showed restraint, I did not want to get accused of making matters worse by publicizing her behaviors.)  History of my marriage, I had met her while on religious activities and for the first eight years of our marriage we were religious volunteers.  Even so, I had acquaintances tell me she was 'high maintenance'.  And that was in the first couple years when she was merely 'sensitive'.  The rants and rages didn't happen until about 4-5 years into our marriage.  The pulling away from me, paranoid and suspicious behaviors of others didn't happen until a decade had passed, when our child was born.  It was another couple years before her rants and rages really mushroomed with me as the focus since friends and family were already blacklisted.  After separation and despite a long history of religious involvement together she tried to make me look worse than her by making repeated allegations of every form of child abuse possible to CPS, child therapist agency, sheriff, doctors, children's hospital, etc.  That's how drastic a change there was with her.

Back to the kids... . Many members upon arriving her state they tried to stay for the kids.  But an objective and informed perspective is that it didn't work if the home environment was that unhealthy.  The children were still being exposed to poor, manipulative, inconsistent, unpredictable, pressuring and even abusive behaviors but added to that was the example set by the reasonably normal parent who tried to stay, generally by appeasing, vainly trying to moderate, etc.  It turns out that there is no perfect 'best' solution.  But if there is more than minor discord then it is a better example for the reasonably normal parent to exercise firm healthy boundaries, even if it means establishing a separate home so that at least some of the children's childhood is in a safe, consistent loving and stable home.  It better for a part of their lives be in a stable home (=prosper) than all of their lives in an unhealthy home with no good examples (=survive).

[marbleloser]

I would advise you to find another job that doesn't require travel,if you truly want primary custody. It will be difficult,and there will be some major changes,but in the end,the kids matter more than a job title does.

"I am in Ohio. My family is from Ohio and her family lives several states away. The thought of her having to live in Ohio(she hates ohio a lot but actually she has hated everywhere we have lived) because we divorced would cause her to make some unprecedented decisions that would involve a lot of lying."

This is very good for your case,because you have a support system in place,while she doesn't. Don't be surprised if she takes the kids to another state after you file. Remember though,you haven't filed yet. Get your ducks in a row,get another job that doesn't require travel,and document all of your time with the kids.

[ForeverDad]

By federal law (contested?) custody cases can only be held in the state of residence (not sure about county but probably that too) and the residency has a 6 month requirement.  For example if she moved away now, even taking the kids, she couldn't file in her new state until she had established proof of 6 months residency there.  So for now and the near future you're assured that your filing and the case would stay in your state.  Yes, she could at some point motion to move the case to her state but let's not worry about that unless we have to, most courts are unwilling to do that unless there is good reason or both parents are willing to make the change.

However, your local court might allow her to move away eventually if she had primary custody, was residential parent or had majority parenting time.  And judges are allowed discretion and flexibility in their orders.  In general, fathers generally have more of an uphill struggle than mothers.  (I say "in general" since some members here are mothers and have had really hard struggles too.)

Has your family been used for child care in the past?  That would give added basis for them to remain in your area, but could be a minor factor compared to other parenting issues.  For example, is family caring for the kids while you parents work?  If they're starting school now, then family might be excellent for before school and after school care, even better than use of day care.  If so, that's good.

Lastly, how possessive is your spouse?  Is she determined to be Mother Of The Year (MOTY)?  Or is she likely to wander away seeking adult relationships more than parenting?

[whirlpoollife]

Two cents worth from a  neighboring state.  I was/am married to x2bnpdh for 27 yrs. As the divorce process continues it is now 29 yrs . S15 D13. I was staying for the children, FOG, fear from knowing what he can do  to me in vindication if  I left. I was so scared of him.   I filed first but h must have known (most likely gps me, joint phone account, at attorney's office) because he got the most expensive roughest divorce L in the county the day he received the divorce complaint. H demanded the kids have a GAL. My then L , I have a different one now, rolled over and said yes to his L. The GAL is biased toward H as H had the first meeting with him and painted me black.   My current L said a GAL wasn't needed.  H wanted full custody to start out with but I was the one who did everything for the kids including paying much of the financial matters for them. Because of my first L not fighting for me I lost a lot of time with the kids. But what kept it from going 50/50 , or worse for me is that I documented what I do as a parent (not how he s--ks as a parent). Homework, after school activities, clothes and food buying, all appts etc. Even fun stuff.   It showed I would be the parent who has structure/stability and would have the capabilities to keep the other parent informed .  Document all what you do as a parent, keep it in a binder with a hole punch calendar in it .   

Interview more than one L.  Same for a T, therapist.  I'm sorry the crisis shelter hotline didn't help.  Maybe go in personally as I did. Lots  of reading on this board has helped me.

I now look back with   no regrets. It was a massive storm I went through. (with more ahead but I am stronger without h now).

It was hard on kids at first to have two homes but now do just fine. Being away from the pwPD I can be a better parent too.

[justaboutdone]

Two cents worth from a  neighboring state.  I was/am married to x2bnpdh for 27 yrs. As the divorce process continues it is now 29 yrs . S15 D13. I was staying for the children, FOG, fear from knowing what he can do  to me in vindication if  I left. I was so scared of him.   I filed first but h must have known (most likely gps me, joint phone account, at attorney's office) because he got the most expensive roughest divorce L in the county the day he received the divorce complaint. H demanded the kids have a GAL. My then L , I have a different one now, rolled over and said yes to his L. The GAL is biased toward H as H had the first meeting with him and painted me black.   My current L said a GAL wasn't needed.  H wanted full custody to start out with but I was the one who did everything for the kids including paying much of the financial matters for them. Because of my first L not fighting for me I lost a lot of time with the kids. But what kept it from going 50/50 , or worse for me is that I documented what I do as a parent (not how he s--ks as a parent). Homework, after school activities, clothes and food buying, all appts etc. Even fun stuff.   It showed I would be the parent who has structure/stability and would have the capabilities to keep the other parent informed .  Document all what you do as a parent, keep it in a binder with a hole punch calendar in it .   

Interview more than one L.  Same for a T, therapist.  I'm sorry the crisis shelter hotline didn't help.  Maybe go in personally as I did. Lots  of reading on this board has helped me.

I now look back with   no regrets. It was a massive storm I went through. (with more ahead but I am stronger without h now).

It was hard on kids at first to have two homes but now do just fine. Being away from the pwPD I can be a better parent too.

Sounds like the road I am envisioning going down and as hard as it will be, I know that I need to do it because in the end it should be worth it. Also, trying to be prepared and have the right lawyer and therapist.  With her anger and need for conflict, it is very scary(among other things) about the way she will react and how much she will try to make my life miserable by using FOG.

[justaboutdone]

Has your family been used for child care in the past?  That would give added basis for them to remain in your area, but could be a minor factor compared to other parenting issues.  For example, is family caring for the kids while you parents work?  If they're starting school now, then family might be excellent for before school and after school care, even better than use of day care.  If so, that's good.

Despite having family in Ohio, my wife rarely allows me to spend time with my family with them. I am always welcome to go by myself and visit but we cannot go as a family or I cannot take the kids. She can come up with a hundred reasons why one of my family members made her mad and she will not be in the same room with that person.  Actually, one of my sister in-laws has a very nicely decorated house and my wife is too mad to go there because she is jealous.

Our son went to the hospital  3 while in Ohio and my wife said we needed help from my parents. So I called my parents who came rushing to help after my wife insisted we would need at least my mom.  As soon as my parents were not needed anymore and things were under control, unbelievably  she started getting into a huge argument about how horrible my parents are and complaining about everything and anything while blowing the whole situation out of proportion.  And the way I am under her FOG, the most I can do is not say anything or agree with her about my parents. If I actually stick up for my parents all hell breaks loose.