Experiences with a BPD being "reigned in" in court?

[sanemom]

Just wondering what your experiences have been when a judge is onto the BPD's game and rules against them, etc.  In our case, the judge told the BPD mom to do x, y, z or else he will rule against her harshly, and she will lose DSD.

Do they tend to straighten up some, at least?  Her kids need her to straighten up.

[Nope]

I've only seen short term improvements made this way. Once the heat is off and the BPD parent doesn't think you have the stomach to drag them all the way back into court things go back to how they were. Either that or the BPD finds less easily provable ways to buck the system. They often absolutely need to feel in control of the situation and that means not ever just doing what anyone else tries to make them feel they have to do.

Some people on the board have reported improvements made by threats from a judge but I think in most of those cases the disordered parent already doesn't have primary custody. In cases like that maybe a BPD is actually afraid of losing more. But I personally don't put a lot of stock in what judges say in the court room. If the court really thinks the child needs to be moved I would think they would just move the child. 

[sanemom]

I've only seen short term improvements made this way. Once the heat is off and the BPD parent doesn't think you have the stomach to drag them all the way back into court things go back to how they were. Either that or the BPD finds less easily provable ways to buck the system. They often absolutely need to feel in control of the situation and that means not ever just doing what anyone else tries to make them feel they have to do.

Some people on the board have reported improvements made by threats from a judge but I think in most of those cases the disordered parent already doesn't have primary custody. In cases like that maybe a BPD is actually afraid of losing more. But I personally don't put a lot of stock in what judges say in the court room. If the court really thinks the child needs to be moved I would think they would just move the child.

This was just a continuance hearing…temporary or final orders will be made at the next hearing.  The judge was just furious with BPD mom for not complying with his orders to allow dh to have counseling with DSD to repair the PA SHE caused.

Yeah…I was thinking that the judge yelling at her probably just made her mad at the judge.

[ForeverDad]

Do they tend to straighten up some, at least?  Her kids need her to straighten up.

In most cases just short term improvements.  When I got custody in 2011 The only change I noticed was that ex called me before trying to take our son to the pediatricians.  Why?  Because they wouldn't let her make appointments.  That was the only major change.  So after more obstruction and periodic rages, I filed for majority time.  She dragged that case out for 17 months, but the order was astounding.  It mentioned mother's 'disdain' and repeated 'disparagement' of father.  That was the entire tone of the 11 age decision.  However, she was given 'one more try' and allowed to keep equal time during the summers.

The end result is she has minority time, just as I had for the first couple years during separation and the divorce case.  The difference is that I had even less time back then (court never once spoke ill of me) than she has now (court raked her over the coals).  Go figure.  Eight years of my life and my son's life, his most formative years. :'(

About your kids, yes it would be nice for them if she would straighten up.  But after all this time I doubt she will ever do it, not long term, eventually she would flare up again as she has done in the past.  Face that reality.  Handle that reality accordingly.  Do your best to get an order that calls her out on her pattern of behaviors.  Get it documented "on the record".  Get an order that at least tries to limit how much chaos she can cause.  The court will assume changes at this time will fix everything but we here know the obstruction will pop up again and again, generally whenever she gets triggered and rises from her cave, the best we can do is try to limit how much damage she can cause.  Beware of half-measures, the more compromises or 'settlement deals' there are, the sooner you'll be right back in court.  Starting with replacing the inept biased GAL & T with more experienced and discerning professionals assigned to the children.

[sanemom]

About your kids, yes it would be nice for them if she would straighten up.  But after all this time I doubt she will ever do it, not long term, eventually she would flare up again as she has done in the past.  Face that reality.  Handle that reality accordingly.  :)o your best to get an order that calls her out on her pattern of behaviors.  Get it documented "on the record".  Get an order that at least tries to limit how much chaos she can cause.  The court will assume changes at this time will fix everything but we here know the obstruction will pop up again and again, generally whenever she gets triggered and rises from her cave, the best we can do is try to limit how much damage she can cause.  Beware of half-measures, the more compromises or 'settlement deals' there are, the sooner you'll be right back in court.  Starting with replacing the inept biased GAL & T with more experienced and discerning professionals assigned to the children.

The problem with removing the GAL is that I live in a good ol' boy system.  The GAL and the judge were friends before the judge was a judge.  I am guessing that the GAL just assumed the judge would go with whatever he said in his recommendation, let BPD mom's lawyer know that he shouldn't worry, and BPD mom came into court feeling very confident about her position.  The very next day, the GAL started backtracking with the family therapist and told her that he knew that therapy was working--funny, we have it in writing in his recommendation that it isn't working.  He is a piece of work.

I don't think BPD mom understood at all what the judge was yelling about because she is clearly working on the kids more than ever.  It's like she is hoping she can totally alienate DSD so she can prove her point that DSD doesn't like her dad.  That plan will likely backfire on her.  I am hoping the New Ways program will help her make some changes.

[Nope]

Oh, she probably knows what she was being yelled at for but: A -If you can't prove it then in her mind she didn't do it. Heck, even if you can prove it then she probably still thinks she didn't do it and is therefore being yelled at unfairly. B - You are doing the same thing she is doing (even if you aren't) so in her mind she is just fighting fire with fire. And/Or C - She actually very literally can't help herself no matter what the consequences might be.

I'm glad to hear the GAL is backing down. I'm also glad you have a judge that calls it based on evidence and not his "buddy's" perceptions. A good judge seems to always make all the difference.

[sanemom]

Oh, she probably knows what she was being yelled at for but: A -If you can't prove it then in her mind she didn't do it. Heck, even if you can prove it then she probably still thinks she didn't do it and is therefore being yelled at unfairly. B - You are doing the same thing she is doing (even if you aren't) so in her mind she is just fighting fire with fire. And/Or C - She actually very literally can't help herself no matter what the consequences might be.

The judge gave her a directive... . she has to have 9 counseling sessions completed in 5 weeks.  I guess either she will buckle down and do it, or she won't.  In the past, she has made excuses for not following through, but maybe, just maybe, she will follow through this time.  It all depends on whether or not she thinks she can get away with it, I guess... . the judge was about to throw her in jail, but who knows how her defense mechanisms read him.

[sanemom]

So far it looks like she is defying the judge's order and not going to counseling.  The kids come home talking about how sick she is and how broke she is (ran out of gas and couldn't take DSS to a school activity). 

I think a reasonable person, when mandated to do something or else face jail time (which is what BPD mom was threatened with), would do everything to comply with an order.  I guess she believes the "woe is me" card will work with the judge... . it has worked so well for her before, but what a risk to take. 

Court is at the end of the month.  Maybe she will suddenly start doing the court ordered program, but I don't think she would be able to finish at this point.

How common is this outright defiance when a judge IS keeping close tabs?

[ForeverDad]

A court's endless patience is misunderstood when dealing with situations like this.  A threat is not a threat unless it is believed.  Whether she believes it deep down or not is anyone's guess.  I'd side on 'disbelief'.

Let her face her consequences.  However, the big risk here is that judge, once he think he has gotten through to her, may relent and undo any consequences he's threatened or ordered.  That's when DH steps forward and states, "If she avoids her consequences, we'll be back again before long.  She's behaved during this case and during all the prior cases very similarly.  I've accepted she won't change.  I've also accepted that positive changes from her, if any, won't last long and we'll be right back here yet again with the very same issues.  While I don't care whether she goes to jail or not, I do care about our children.  Based on the past behaviors, I am the more stable parent.  I can share our children without playing games with their lives.  Unlike Ex, I have provided a stable and peaceful home for my children all these years since our divorce back in {year}.  I will continue to do so.  However, we're here, in part, to try to limit her obstruction and sabotage of my parenting.  Can you give serious consideration to the changes I've requested so the children's interests are always put first without the interference of her recurring chaos and lack of cooperation?"  I presume he's already filed a motion for custody and majority time for all the children?

[Nope]

If she doesn't have the gas money to take the child to a school activity then I would suspect she will walk in there at the end of the month crying poverty and saying her financial situation got in the way of her compliance. If she does say something like that, then she is daring the judge to put her in jail for the crime of being poor.

I agree with FD that the best thing to do is bring the focus right back to the best thing for the child. For lack of anything else to reasonably do in this situation you may get a ruling that is favorable to you.

[sanemom]

She has only been in front of the judge three times…for the most part, this case has been ruled by an incompetent GAL.  The GAL has let her get away with murder; I don't think the judge will.  The judges in my county have a reputation…I often hear that one should not mess with a judge in our county.  I guess we will see if it is true.

The family therapist today wrote an email to the GAL, the two attorneys, and both parents inquiring about the next step of the program that both DH and BM are supposed to do BEFORE the hearing.  I suspect she did that because only DH has told her that he is ready to go to the next step, and she wants to make sure that the GAL (and BPD mom) knows that DH is ready (the GAL has been empowering BPD mom this whole case).  

I bet you are right, though, FD…she disbelieves.  Not because of lack of consequences from this particular judge, but from lack of consequences from the GAL and everyone else in her life.  We have not filed contempt charges on her because we were saving them for final trial when they would really matter so the judge has only heard a small portion of her obstruction, and that small portion already made him hit the roof.  Wait until he hears the rest…

Actually, what I suspect, based on what she has told her family in the past (her dad didn't believe her), is that she is planning on suddenly claiming that DH sexually abused DSD (who is almost 17) and thinks that that will win her case.  The problem is that it has never been reported to CPS, etc.  Oh yeah, and it is insanely false.

[ForeverDad]

I'll mention a few items regarding my recent Modification of Parenting Time & Child Support case.

"The issue becomes the summer... . However, after considerable thought, this magistrate is willing to give Mother one more try, provided she... . "  Yikes, one more try.  What that means is that if that "one more try" by letting mother keep equal time during the summer doesn't work then it's back to court yet again.  As if 8 years in and out of court wasn't enough?

"Father offered no financial or other information to allow the court to determine what amount, if any, Mother should pay in child support. Therefore, Mother shall not be ordered to pay child support at this time."  Hmm, twice before I was ordered to start paying child support, in 2006 (temp order until 2008) and 2011 (until this December 2013 order).  Both times mother as recipient never provided proof of income.  She was always imputed with minimum wage.  Why wasn't any imputing done this time?  Yeah, the legalistic excuse for the second instance probably would be that it was a GAL-guided settlement, not decision?

When we filed way back in July 2012 my lawyer attached the proof that I had requested from mother reimbursement from various child-related expenses, including medical ones.  Mother admitted she hadn't ever reimbursed.  I had originally filed my notice to mother and proof of mailing.  The decision stated I hadn't filed Contempt of Court motions or demonstrated I had given mother proper notice so mother didn't have to reimburse anything.

My point here is that you need to be extremely careful when submitting those motions, papers, etc.  Make sure the judge isn't given any legal excuse to dismiss those motions or evidence on a technicality.  Or the other lawyer claim insufficient time to prepare with those new motions and seek yet another continuance.  Even if she is seen as a problem parent, it doesn't mean there will no longer be unspoken gender bias.

In my case, my lawyer said we really weren't trying for Contempt for failure to reimburse which is why we chose not to push the financial issues since we wanted to focus on parenting not money, she probably still earns less than me and she could claim to be financial victim.  And after all these years we finally got a decent order once the court adjusted for mother's continued disparagement of father.

[PinkieV]

I am thankful every day that we got a responsible and fair GAL.  She was the one our lawyer wanted, and when I read her report, I felt that she had really done a complete job in her investigation - even if she hadn't recommended DH retain custody.  It's such a crap shoot, isn't it?  We've been so lucky to have a great lawyer, and that TM actually went to jail, leaving the door open to our temporary custody.

[Peaceful.]

During my divorce proceedings my upbdX was not formally censured, but I was granted additional parenting time for a certain period as a result of controlling behavior.

It's important for the opposing party to remain professional, stick to the facts, and be the voice of reason.

[sanemom]

Well, the court order was that the program was to be complete by next week.  BPD mom didn't start it until this week, has done multiple sessions in one week, but will not be able to finish by the court date.  I bet she has done enough to not get into too much trouble, but one therapist still thinks the judge will be upset with her.  I won't believe it until I see it.  

At the same time, it seems that she is trying to make DH feel threatened about how chummy she is with their joint therapist.  I am sure she isn't chummy, but she wants DH to think she is.

Until today, she was still trying to block DH's counseling with the kids.  I think she had a session today that reigned her in a bit (if her counselor saw how ridiculous she was being, the counselor would have called her on it), and she is suddenly trying to be super-cooperative with co-parenting, trying to engage DH in random discussions about the kids, etc.  :)H is not responding to the random discussions she is trying to initiate, but I am sure she will see it as passive aggressive.

She is being both controlling and friendly…maybe she is white-knuckling it before court?

Court is in just a few days, and we have NO IDEA how it will go.

[ForeverDad]

The judge gave her a directive... . she has to have 9 counseling sessions completed in 5 weeks.  I guess either she will buckle down and do it, or she won't.  In the past, she has made excuses for not following through, but maybe, just maybe, she will follow through this time.  It all depends on whether or not she thinks she can get away with it, I guess... . the judge was about to throw her in jail, but who knows how her defense mechanisms read him.

So she'll get some sessions done with unknown impact on her long term behaviors.  However, the intent of the judge is clear.  Perhaps the judge should have said, two sessions per week.  Unfortunately mother is thinking she can just lump them all in together "just in time" for court.  You lawyer should mention that difference.  (Reminds me when I was in school.  How many kids had a week's notice of a big homework assignment but ignored it until the night before?)  She's not shown she sees a need for therapy but it just doing it because she has to.  That doesn't imply the sessions will have a lasting impact on her.  To the contrary, one does not fix a lifetime pattern in a couple weeks.

The focus is not jail or whatever.  The focus is on what's best for the children for the rest of their childhood or adolescence.  And that's for the children to have majority time with their father.  Don't let it get sidetracked or diverted into her sessions working or not.  That just delays addressing the real fix - let father have substantive majority parenting and decision making and let him do it in peace.