Assumptions about domestic violence.

[Matt]

In custody cases, there are often accusations about domestic violence.  One party claims the other party committed a violent act, or made a threat, toward their partner or a child.

In my experience, there is a presumption of guilt if the accused is male - in my state men are routinely arrested and charged even when the evidence indicates the accusation was false - but accusations by a man against a woman are not always taken seriously.  One reason is the assumption that domestic violence is primarily a man hurting or threatening a woman.  Is that assumption true?

Here is a study by the US Centers For Disease Control And Prevention:  www.cdc.gov/ViolencePrevention/pdf/NISVS_Report2010-a.pdf.

Lots of data here.  Some things I found interesting:

* Men and women are the victims of domestic violence about equally often (not quite - women are victims a little more often).

* When a woman is hurt or threatened, it's usually by a man.

* When a man is raped, it's usually by another man, but when a man is hurt or threatened in some other way, it's usually by a woman.

* Both men and women who have been hurt or threatened by an intimate partner are much more likely to have health problems - physical and psychological - in later years, than those who haven't experienced domestic violence.

[bpdspell]

I responded to this because I'm a woman who was physically assaulted by my borderline narcissist ex bf.

In my experience I had to call the authorities on three separate occasions before an actual paper trail began due to police negligence. Women aren't always taken seriously when claims of domestic violence are made due to the fact that many women return to their partners. For me three times was the charm.

There is a presumption that most victims of DV are women due to the perception that women are physically the weaker sex. Men have muscles and testosterone so being "abused" is perceived as laughable. Yes it's a double standard but that's called life.

Being on BPD family has exposed me to the physical violence and abuse that women are capable of and it's quite unfortunate that these experiences aren't validated in our society due to the perception that an abused male is a weak male of little strength. Again chuck that up to life.

In essence women can certainly be crazed mentally ill psychotic abusers but the assumption is that it should be easy to walk away for a man. And I find that to be so untrue; especially on bpdfamily.

Spell

[Matt]

Thanks BPDSpell - good insights!

[ogopogodude]

In custody cases, there are often accusations about domestic violence.  One party claims the other party committed a violent act, or made a threat, toward their partner or a child.

In my experience, there is a presumption of guilt if the accused is male - in my state men are routinely arrested and charged even when the evidence indicates the accusation was false - but accusations by a man against a woman are not always taken seriously.  One reason is the assumption that domestic violence is primarily a man hurting or threatening a woman.  Is that assumption true?

This is (pretty much) always the case. Domestic dispute always inherently means that MAN is the problem (when the cop cars are on their way to the house). This is soo why I made sure that I was never in a position of  "he said/she said".  

I do not tolerate any form of abuse (anymore) be it verbal or emotional or physical.  If one has video tape of "the problem" (and let's all agree that the BPD-afflicted is "theeee problem" then that protects one's reputation, one's livelihood and actually protects the children.

Sorry, I was trying to soo not comment on videotaping ever again but this topic has sparked me to do so.

I am such an advocate of exposing a BPD for what they are: a criminal.  This may make one think that I am going to far calling a BPD a criminal. It really is a matter of degree. In my case it was most certainly criminal (time after time), ... the continued child abuse was … yes, … criminal in nature. As well as abusing another adult by verbal, emotional and physical hitting.

This behaviour by a BPD is unwanted and unwarranted.

If one does not want to be yelled at, ….& if one does not want to be physically tormented by getting hit over and over, … then this is just not right, …. is it?

[maxen]

the assumption is that it should be easy to walk away for a man.

which goes to the equally insidious idea that not only are men physically stronger, but ought to be emotionally "stronger" too.

[ogopogodude]

It was very, very difficult to confide in others around me that my wife beat me.

I actually couldn't even admit it to myself that she was beating me, … it was humiliating. I kept this to myself (and our kids kept it in as well) for 2 & 1/2 years.

This is why I have NO PROBLEM in humiliating her back by telling people that she did so, … I have done a 180. This is why she and her bully--temper--ridden parents are mad at me…



Information is everything.

They may have money (millions) ... but I have something much more than that.

[justaboutdone]

It was very, very difficult to confide in others around me that my wife beat me.

I actually couldn't even admit it to myself that she was beating me, … it was humiliating. I kept this to myself (and our kids kept it in as well) for 2 & 1/2 years.

This is why I have NO PROBLEM in humiliating her back by telling people that she did so, … I have done a 180. This is why she and her bully--temper--ridden parents are mad at me…



Information is everything.

They may have money (millions) ... but I have something much more than that.

The humiliating aspect is very real and I know that is what keeps me from opening up.  I cannot imagine how hard it would be to see your kids so hurt.  I see how hurt my kids are but fortunately it has been one step away from being physical.  It truly causes physical responses in your body that I am sure I will suffer from later.  Thank you for your honest post.

[musicfan42]

The feminist movement highlighted domestic violence against women. The Duluth Model makes explicit reference to male privilege: www.theduluthmodel.org/pdf/PowerandControl.pdf

I've read up on the Duluth Model and it basically states that some men adopt a pattern of learned behavior i.e. abusive behavior against women because they know that the patriarchal system in society will allow it.

Men have traditionally been the financial breadwinners so that meant women automatically had a barrier preventing them from leaving an abusive relationship. Even now, women typically earn less than men. White women make 77 cents to a man's dollar and that figure goes down when it comes to hispanic and black women. I've read that more men are atheists than women partly because some women are still reliant on childcare services sponsored by faith-based communities.

I think there's an assumption that men have the financial means to leave an abusive relationship but choose not to for various reasons.

However, male victims may experience barriers preventing them from leaving an abusive relationship:

-male victims are isolated from family and friends just like female victims are. If victims have outside family/friends to help them out, they're typically more likely to leave than if they have no outside support.

-male victims may be worried about losing custody of children if they leave

-male victims may be in a low-paying job. Or else the female perpetrator may be the financial breadwinner. Either way, some male victims may lack the financial means to exit an abusive relationship.

-male victims may worry about false accusations of domestic violence against them by the female perpetrator

-Gender stereotyping. BPDSpell has talked about some of this in her post however I'd like to share my own thoughts on it too.

   -There is a myth that women can't be violent against women because they're the weaker sex... that men are physically stronger than              

     men. However, I've read that female perpetrators may use household items e.g. irons as weapons against the man.

   -Men and women are socialized differently. Men are told "boys don't cry"... not allowed to show vulnerable emotions whereas women are.

    I wonder if some male victims of domestic abuse fear that they'll be judged or stigmatized.

There's a piece in The Guardian on male rape in war situations in Africa. It mentions that male victims of rape were judged harshly by the community when they tried to seek help... that males were expected to be strong and leaders in the community. I'll give a link to the article but it mentions some horrific details so if you think you'll be triggered, avoid reading it: www.theguardian.com/society/2011/jul/17/the-rape-of-men

There has been scientific research done which shows that impulsive aggression may be inherited. This indicates that some people are naturally more violent than others.

[trappeddad]

does it help someone's case if the ex'es accusation of DV is proven untrue?     

[Matt]

does it help someone's case if the ex'es accusation of DV is proven untrue?     

Well of course it's very hard to prove that something didn't happen... .

I got lucky - the two officers who came to our house after my wife called 911 and accused me of assault did a great job - they talked to both of us and took careful notes, and also talked to our kids who were there at the time, and noticed some physical evidence, and their report proved that my wife had lied.  That made it easy to get the (criminal court) judge to order that the charges against me should be dropped.

In our divorce case, I made an issue of this - I filed a motion to have my wife deposed (questioned under oath) and my lawyer asked her a lot of questions about what happened, to get her accusations on record and prove that she had not accepted the truth and was still looking for ways to stick to her accusations.

That and other stuff killed my wife's credibility.  Even her own lawyer knew she was lying about lots of stuff.

But nobody said to me, "Well she lied about the assault charge so you get custody."  In my state, there is a bias toward the mom, so the best I could get was 50/50.

[sfbayjed]

I recall, when we lived in another state, I was in a corner covering my face as ex wailed on me in a rage.  I called the police that time and they asked to talk to my ex ask asked her if she was okay. 

An emotive BPD with their victim mentality can be very convincing and it seems that women are allowed to commit much more abuse before it is taken seriously.

Where I live, if the police are called on a DV call and both parties are on site when they arrive they often arrest someone, usually the man. If a BPD calls the police saying you did something you didn't do, it is a good idea to leave right away and call the police and explain and inform them that you have left because the situation is volatile and you do not feel safe and you did not do what she is saying you did...   They will not NEED to make an arrest at that point to defuse the situation because you have already left the volitile situation.

[ForeverDad]

When speaking with my divorce attorney, describing my 911 call to the police that resulted in my filing a police report later and resulting in our separation, he was surprised and said police have instructions to remove/arrest someone when called to a domestic incident.  I look back and I'm so thankful now that my sobbing preschooler shrieked and clung tighter to me when I tried to obey the officer and hand son off to his mother and step away.  Though I was the one who called 911 that day and had done nothing wrong, I will always wonder how close I came to being carted away that day - if my son hadn't saved me.

[Nope]

I hate to even be commenting on this because I do think there are plenty of cases where men are falsely accused. But I will also point out that there are plenty of instances when a woman is attacked by her spouse or bf and then isn't taken seriously by the police.

That was my personal experience in about 2004 when a I didn't know better than to date a man who was diagnosed bipolar. One night I had him at my apartment after he wrecked his car. It was also his birthday so he was volatile for a bunch of reasons. I was terrorised and I was attacked and when I finally was able to physically get to a phone, what did the police do? They showed up, told me I could file for a temp restraining order in the morning if I wanted to, and then drove him away down the street to a McDonald's to be picked up by a friend. He had been choking me and doing things like sitting on my chest so I couldn't breath. But he knew exactly what he was doing . There simply weren't enough marks on me to prove anything.

Then I got the temp RO and he went and filed and got a temp RO of his own based on my statement in my RO that I had defended myself so I could get air (therefore admitting I'd put my hands on him) and actually got the court to drag me in for an in query to decide if *I* should have been arrested or not.

In the end it came to nothing because he calmed down and decided he was back in control and he asked the court to drop the matter.

The criminal justice system is just horribly flawed. Try not to feel too picked on.

[ForeverDad]

It's a judicial system of laws, case law (prior decisions) and the latitude allowed in judicial conclusions.  Justice is too often an intangible.  The fact the he-said, she-said is often heard and then set aside as hearsay primarily helps the malefactor.  Sometimes that's not such a bad thing since the malefactor could be more emotionally convincing - as many people with acting-out PDs are - than the innocent person.

[sfbayjed]

Nope,  I think there is more common ground here than you think. the situation appears to be the same even though the sexes are reversed.

The abuse from the disordered one is not being taken seriously by the police and you were nearly falsely accused yourself based on your Ex's emotive statements. 

[Waddams]

My Fiancee has been dealing with an abusive ex- for a very long time.  There's a trail of DV cases in multiple states.  The cops still won't do much about it.

She was at a probable cause hearing last week for criminal child abandonment.  She'd filed it herself in the criminal magistrate court.  He ADMITTED he'd violated every provision of the state's child abandonment law.  He hadn't paid CS in ages, had violated a prior agreement to get caught up, and had made no attempt at contacting their kids in almost 2 years.  But he showed with a single month's CS payment, and claimed poverty.

Judge told her to take the check and dismissed the abandonment charge.  No basis for it, the guy is still in violation of every section of the abandonment law in this state.  Fiancee has more evidence that the guy is spending all his money extravagantly on cars, trips, and his new super young GF.  She didn't present the evidence because ultimately she's got to get back in civil court to resolve a whole host of issues that the criminal court won't hear in an abandonment hearing.  She didn't want the other side to know she had access to the information because then he'd make a change to fix his "security leaks".  And I'm talking multiple $50k-$80k cars, a bunch of trips to resorts in tropical places, bragging pics of the ring on this new girl's finger (REALLY big diamond), etc.

The judge just didn't execute the law and let this deadbeat walk.  Judge didn't care that there is a long history of abuse, that his not paying is continuing punishment and abuse towards Fiancee, etc.  Judge didn't care at all.  He just plain didn't follow the law.

Not going to pursue it right now, but I'm hoping Fiancee will at some point either send details of the story to local media, the judge's next election opponent, etc.  Maybe even a formal complaint with the state's judicial board.  But if we do it right now and let the whole story out, someone will contact the opposing side's L, and it will give away Fiancee's case for Family Court.  So right now we've just got to suffer silently.

ETA - all that to say Fiancee also argued for and got a 1 year RO against him a few years ago as a pro se litigant.  Different judge, different county.  And I've seen other judges in other venues be all over the place in how they rule.  Even the same the judge being harsh one day, and letting people off easy the next.  It's a combination of the people in the system, their biases, even their moods.  Some are better than others.  When we get a good judge/cop/etc., it's great.  When we don't it hurts.  No system is perfect.  It's always going to be as fallible as the people that run it.

[livednlearned]

The humiliating aspect is very real and I know that is what keeps me from opening up.  I cannot imagine how hard it would be to see your kids so hurt.  I see how hurt my kids are but fortunately it has been one step away from being physical.  It truly causes physical responses in your body that I am sure I will suffer from later.  Thank you for your honest post.

It was humiliating for me to admit I was being abused. I suffered in silence because I was too embarrassed to admit what was going on. 

I was too ashamed to tell family or friends what was happening. I felt shame telling my lawyer. Shame going to a DV center. Shame in court describing what had happened. I'm supposed to be an educated, intelligent woman living a middle-class American life. Not some abused woman being terrorized in my own home.

Being abused is stigmatizing.

I dunno. This topic always feels potentially divisive to me. Isn't the thing that brings us together (judges that don't recognize BPD) what screws us most in court? I'm all for you guys getting full custody, but not for my ex. I don't want cops to put you in jail for a false allegation, but if it's my ex, then h3ll yes please be biased toward me, 100lbs lighter than him.

[ogopogodude]

The humiliating aspect is very real and I know that is what keeps me from opening up.  I cannot imagine how hard it would be to see your kids so hurt.  I see how hurt my kids are but fortunately it has been one step away from being physical.  It truly causes physical responses in your body that I am sure I will suffer from later.  Thank you for your honest post.

It was humiliating for me to admit I was being abused. I suffered in silence because I was too embarrassed to admit what was going on. 

I was too ashamed to tell family or friends what was happening.

Shame in court describing what had happened. I'm supposed to be an educated, intelligent, etc

... . being terrorized in my own home.

Being abused is stigmatizing.

I felt the same way but probably a 1,000 times more embarrassed b/c I had a 98 lb female beat me and beat me (kicking me and striking me with her fists as well as mostly throwing items at me) and this occurred several times a week. I had bruises everywhere... .

[livednlearned]

The humiliating aspect is very real and I know that is what keeps me from opening up.  I cannot imagine how hard it would be to see your kids so hurt.  I see how hurt my kids are but fortunately it has been one step away from being physical.  It truly causes physical responses in your body that I am sure I will suffer from later.  Thank you for your honest post.

It was humiliating for me to admit I was being abused. I suffered in silence because I was too embarrassed to admit what was going on. 

I was too ashamed to tell family or friends what was happening.

Shame in court describing what had happened. I'm supposed to be an educated, intelligent, etc

... . being terrorized in my own home.

Being abused is stigmatizing.

I felt the same way but probably a 1,000 times more embarrassed b/c I had a 98 lb female beat me and beat me (kicking me and striking me with her fists as well as mostly throwing items at me) and this occurred several times a week. I had bruises everywhere... .

I could also imagine that feeling 1,000 more embarrassed would make you feel 1,000 more invalidated. And that if you feel you are being invalidated and stigmatized, and then treated badly by the system, then looking around and seeing a system that doesn't get BPD, would fuel a lot of unresolved rage and getting even-ness.

But if you can't get validated by the system (not just thinking about you here, since you are getting full custody, but others who haven't fared so well, or others like you who felt stigmazed), then what?

What next? It just seems like a big emotional cliff with not much external resolution. Where to channel it? How to make peace with it?

[ogopogodude]

well, … here's the deal: I am slowly healing. Because I have always been the target by my in laws for the last four years or so I am walking on eggshells even when there is no contact at all with them.  But they are always scheming and trying to think of a way to "get me" … but I am squeaky clean. This is why I got custody as well as back into the house. According to my lawyer, the judge wept as she read excerpts from the CPS investigation (my wife looked like the very devil in the report). I was not there as I was at work and it was a court meeting that was based only on affidavits (and neither of us was allowed to speak anyway… so my lawyer advised me to just go make money as it is pointless to come). My wife was in the court room with her mom listening to everything. My lawyer said it was quite moving in that the judge ordered my wife to get into a facility or face the consequences later.

Anyways, ... you asked what next? How to make peace with it?

Well …. I have decided to just act like my wife died years ago and carry on. I have so many friends and family that are so happy for me and the kids.  I do have unresolved anger that is seemingly like a flame that is dwindling …. time will heal. This I know. How I also make peace with it all is that I am reestablishing friendships and I am soon going on a golf trip with eleven other guys…. as we do every springtime. I want to have fun again. ….I want to live again.

oh,… and the best thing of all is that I have not witnessed any violence by my ex because of the R.O.  …... . I am thus achieving peace and calm.

[Nope]

How to make peace with all of it is the biggest question we face here. The truth is that all of our answers will end up being different. Some of us will be lucky and the BPD person will be so unwell that one way or the other they will just fade into the background. Some of us will be dealing with a sick individual in our lives to one extent or another for the rest of our lives due to children involved and making peace with that may be something we will do over and over again. Either way the experience is going to grow us. Whether we like it to or not.

[DreamGirl]

Those statistics are really interesting. I think it shows that some of the efforts to increase awareness about domestic violence is working.

* Men and women are the victims of domestic violence about equally often (not quite - women are victims a little more often).

This breakdown also helps explain the type of abuse:

Prevalence Among Men

~Approximately 1 in 4 men in the United States (25.7% or about 29 million) has been slapped, pushed or shoved by an intimate partner in his lifetime

~ Nearly 1 in 7 men in the United States (13.8% or approximately 15.6 million) has experienced severe physical violence by an intimate partner in his lifetime.

~About 9.4% of men have been hit with a fist or something hard by an intimate partner

~ 4.3% reported being kicked

~ less than 3% reported each of the other forms of severe violence by an intimate partner in their lifetime.

Prevalence Among Women

~ Nearly 1 in 3 women (30.3% or approximately 36.2 million) in the United States has been slapped, pushed or shoved by an intimate partner at some point in her lifetime. 

~ Approximately 1 in 4 women in the United States (24.3% or approximately 29 million) has experienced severe physical violence by an intimate partner in her lifetime

~ An estimated 17.2% of women have been slammed against something by a partner

~ 4.2% have been hit with a fist or something hard,

~ 11.2% reported that they have been beaten by an intimate partner in their lifetime.


Sexual violence also involved a pretty big gap in numbers.

[maxen]

the difference in the numbers does not affect the reality of the experience. i have never in my life laid a finger in anger on a woman (nor on a man since grammar school). i have never threatened to, said i wanted to, or even thought about doing so. by my stbxw i was pinned to the ground, chased by car, had an object thrown at me, and had my feet gashed; and, by a previous gf, i was raped. that i am in a class (men) which has not had this experience as often as another class (women) does not make the experience any less serious. i have been informed however that since it doesn't happen so often to men, it just doesn't count for much; and since i am a straight white male i have some sort of privilege that softens the blow. (i am also the product of a proletarian immigrant household though so the people who said such things to me were surely jingoistic class bigots.)

around the same time i was raped another man was raped in the area and went to the rape crisis center and was literally laughed at.

[DreamGirl]

the difference in the numbers does not affect the reality of the experience. i have never in my life laid a finger in anger on a woman (nor on a man since grammar school). i have never threatened to, said i wanted to, or even thought about doing so. by my stbxw i was pinned to the ground, chased by car, had an object thrown at me, and had my feet gashed; and, by a previous gf, i was raped. that i am in a class (men) which has not had this experience as often as another class (women) does not make the experience any less serious. i have been informed however that since it doesn't happen so often to men, it just doesn't count for much; and since i am a straight white male i have some sort of privilege that softens the blow. (i am also the product of a proletarian immigrant household though so the people who said such things to me were surely jingoistic class bigots.)

around the same time i was raped another man was raped in the area and went to the rape crisis center and was literally laughed at.

Statistics aren't personal, maxen. It's not an indication of seriousness - it's an indication of numbers. My experience has also shown that it's present in all walks of life - with no bias to race, sex or creed.

So finding the prevalence in men/women, social classes, ethnic background, etc. helps raise awareness and prevention. I've worked in advocacy for domestic violence and there wasn't a whole lot of laughing going when it came to victims. There is a lack of agencies available for men - but that could be changing when statistics are increasing.

I do believe that it really helps to know the numbers. To know what kind of abuse is happening and to who it is happening.  

To say that it's irrelevant doesn't help matters, especially when there are assumptions being made (like the title of the post). Awareness brings forth change... .