Admitted to emotional abuse...

[sking]

I am starting to see things differently.  I had starting keeping a journal as I started to see a pattern in his behavour. I confronted him, over the phone as he works out of town during the week.  He has been seeing a few therapists about his passive aggressive behavour.   He admitted to emotional abusing me and said that he knows what he is doing.  He told me that he has incredible rage and is unable to see things clearly when he is in his rage. He described getting someone what of a release getting me upset and mad at him.   I read a lot this past week about rage and that people in rage often do not have empathy, ensight or control over their emotions.  Things seem to be getting worse and his moods take days to come out of.  He had agreed to look in to getting help for this when he is home but as the week went on that remorseful enthusiasm died off.  Then the cycle seem to start again.  I am considering going no contact until he gets help.  I am having a little trouble stopping myself from talking to him - I am working on improving my own life and have started doing things to keep me busy so that I don't talk to him.

Does anyone have any experience with rage that lasts for a few days and or spouses that have admitted to knowingly doing this.  I'm confused as to why he cannot stop himself.  Is there hope for learning how to deal with this rage and cycle?

[Grey Kitty]

The path I and my wife took toward healing started almost like that.

Our conflict level had crept up to the ceiling. We were looking for some sort of retreat or marriage counseling, etc. My wife found one for rebuilding an abusive (but never or no longer physically abusive) r/s. When she was reading about it, she realized that she was the abusive one... . and told me about this realization.

We didn't go to that workshop. We did get a bit of couples T along the way, and sometime after that I realized that she was high-functioning BPD. I found this site, and learned a LOT. She did a lot of work on her own, went through a couple years of personal hell, and finally really did get better.

As for his experience of knowing and being unable to stop himself... .

That may just be him... . or it may be just the point he's at right now. I know that when I was trying to change how I reacted to my wife, (applying the tools and lessons here), there were times I knew I was doing it wrong, but couldn't stop myself before I did it. Over time I got better at stopping sooner, or even not doing the wrong things anymore, and even doing more productive things.

[sking]

I really needed to hear a positive outcome and appreciate you sharing your experience.  Thank you.

We had a really good talk tonight and he is reading more about the effects of emotional abuse on a spouse.  He said he never thought he was that bad.  I feel that he really understood it.  He was very upset and empathetic.  I am cautious that this is the remorseful stage but baby steps I hope. 

Did your wife have the rage issue?  If so, how did she learn to deal with it?

[Seneca]

beware. the acknowledgement and remorse stage, is just that - a stage. it really is a dangerous place for them, accepting wrong doing. it is almost impossible for them to sit with that too long, before they begin to repress it or project it back on to you. two months ago (and two years, 5 years etc etc) my husband was on his knees saying he was guilty of abuse, terrified, empty inside... . all the major characteristics of BPD. today, he just "has some issues" and I am "also mentally ill" and am "delusional" because i see things in him that no one else does. when just 6 weeks ago, HE could see all those things and admitted to them - to himself and to me. now, not so much. he is going to therapy, but his view of the dynamic has shifted. he is back to being "victim", instead of "perpetrator".

i don't want to discourage you, but i also want you to use caution. do as much work on this as possible while he is willing to accept any responsibility. it won't be long before he shirks it again. but you should gain as much ground as possible right now.

[maxsterling]

My dBPDgf admits to "being mean" to me in the past.  She doesn't admit to being mean to me currently (although it is much less).  She admits to being mean to others, admits to abusing others, and seems to have a grasp that her own behavior is causing much of her relationship issues. She's known this for years.  Yet, she still blames others, and doesn't change.  I see a difference here, she admits to her own behavior as personally destructive, but cannot get to the point of really breaking down and understanding how much hurt it causes others.  Instead, it's an "I was out of control, but I have a mental illness, and that's THEIR problem to deal with me."  A story she has told me multiple times is having an ex boyfriend fly her to California to meet his parents.  They got into a "fight" on the way (probably meaning her SCREAMING at him over nonsense), and when they landed in California, he turned around and bought her a ticket home, saying "I do not want you to meet my mother."  She still blames him, and thinks he was out of line for doing that.

[sking]

Thank you for your replies.  I will do my best to stay vigilent about this stage and keeping a pratical approach.  The journal really helps keep me on track to see things in a true light.  My focus will be on what he does not what he says.   

During these remorseful stages I try and see if it is remorse because of the consequence or out of empathy.  I like the reference to 'covering ground' during these stages as this is when he is most willing to acknowledge and get help.  We will see how the next week plays out. 

[Grey Kitty]

Feelings of remorse... . like most other feelings on the part of a pwBPD are absolutely completely sincere... . until different feelings come up, which are also completely sincere.

That part is true of both pwBPD and normal healthy people.

The pwBPD will morph reality and other people's actions/motivations/etc. to match their current feelings... . and then "change history" to do it again to the latest set of feelings!

So the warnings that this is a phase are valid. There is also room for optimism that more fundamental changes are starting... . and an understanding that any improvement will be in fits and starts, and have regressions.

As for rage... . my wife very seldom raged. She was emotionally abusive, usually without raising her voice. Her style was more to push my buttons until I would get angry and yell at her. I remember many times where I would gently ask her not to continue doing something that was starting to get to me. She generally turned it up until I said it not so gently, and continued until I was shouting at her. (I would generally leave for a while at this point... . as *I* got better, I started leaving earlier while I was still less upset)

Immediately after the period where she acknowledged the abuse, we a series of discussions about therapy, etc.

I drew one line in the sand, and told her there was no room for negotiation over it: She needed to get help to deal with the abusive behavior. I would not discuss with her my issues or my failings, nor would any work on, progress on them, etc. be linked in any way to her stopping her abusive behavior.

I told her that I was working on my own issues, but she wasn't invited to be involved with it. I also said that at its core, abuse is about control, for me to let her do anything which might give her more control over me, like being involved with my therapy/issues/etc. wasn't going to happen.

Most of my personal healing was done here on this site--I expect I would have benefited from individual therapy, but I didn't get any--I know many here found T a huge help.

So she did her own work on healing. And I put up solid boundaries to protect myself from abuse. (Lots of help on that here, and I've payed some of that forward too.) Most success stories on this site center around a course of DBT, which wasn't at all what my wife did.

[hergestridge]

Feelings of remorse... . like most other feelings on the part of a pwBPD are absolutely completely sincere... . until different feelings come up, which are also completely sincere.

But sincerity requires conistency. Insincerity is not just lying. Insincerity is absence of reality check. "This time it's for real" says the borderline, because that's the way it feels. The borderline is not motivated to to do a consideration based on experience because that does not include a rush of feelings.

BTW I've also had the "night of confessions" followed by some kind of gaslighting act. It's one of the most anxiety-inducing things I have ever been through. My world was basically tuned upside down, and the very next day my wife pretended like it didn't happen. My whole body reacted to that for days. Awful. The things you have to go through are just so unnatural, your limbic system tells you.

[Grey Kitty]

hergestridge, I meant that the feelings are completely sincere and real.

They aren't put on as a show, or a conscious effort to manipulate us, or at least that wasn't my experience.

You are completely right about the absolute lack of a reality check... . and that without consistency, results aren't likely to include real change. When a pwBPD convinces themselves of a lie, and then believes it when they tell you, it doesn't make you feel any better about it.

I've been through it too, and my body and emotions didn't know what to do with it either!

[sking]

My husband went to his Dr on Wednesday and the Dr was quite stern and aggressive with him.  Told him it was a behaviour problem and that he could control it and to stop being dependant, sulky/pouty, childish, etc.  Told him he does have BPD traits and n traits but that he can control it.  Definitely an emotional abuser and to stop it.  If he controled his behaviour he wouldn't get to the rage stage.   Again he accepted the responsibility, remorse etc.  He was doing quite well and started excersizing and felt that that helped quite a bit as well.  Then last night, after three good days he started again.  This is a constant with him - 3 days well and then the cycle starts again.

I understand the comments about sincerity of their remorse.  My husband seems when he is truely remorsefull he is remorseful with empathy - when he is manipulating he is remorseful of the consequence he has to suffer. 

I handled last night very well and didn't react or dwell on his brewing.  This morning was difficult after he tried to push my buttons for about two hours I finally left.  I work from home so I had to return and return to even a bigger temper tantrum.  Things progressed as normal and he has left.  We will see how it goes and if there is any gradual improvement.

I really really appreciate the support and replies.  This has helped me significantly this past few weeks!  I am in a better place and am hopeful and strong regardless of the outcome of my marriage.  It really does help to stay focused on yourself and your feelings and am really starting to see  how beaten down I was.  My healing has started.

[an0ught]

I understand the comments about sincerity of their remorse.  My husband seems when he is truely remorsefull he is remorseful with empathy - when he is manipulating he is remorseful of the consequence he has to suffer. 

As others have said - remorse is not such a big factor. It is worth something in the sense that there is at times some useful self reflection. Self reflection is helpful as the only person able to do anything about his behavior is himself.

The problem of course is that with BPD the ability to think clearly and reflect at all goes out of the window when emotions get the upper hand. We can only

- validate / support him keeping emotions in check

- boundaries / protecting ourselves and letting him grapple with the consequences of overreacting

Moving away from BPD is a longer behavioral learning process. We don't expect a teenager to become an adult just by having insight into some acting out boundary crossing... .

I am in a better place and am hopeful and strong regardless of the outcome of my marriage.  It really does help to stay focused on yourself and your feelings and am really starting to see  how beaten down I was.  My healing has started.

Looking after yourself and getting stronger is a good move. You can't stabilize a relationship by being focused on an unstable moving target - particularly when the target is equally focused on you.

[hergestridge]

Me and the wife are stuck in a kind of loop. She does the "mean" thing, going into the vile mode where she paints me black. The jabs she takes at me are kind of hidden and most of the time she takes shots at me when other people are around (family, our daughter etc), so I won't make a scene. Usually I don't confront her about the "mean" stuff because I know it's no use. But sometimes it gets to much and I have to tell her that it hurts, just to ease the pain.

First she doesn't remember, then she defends herself, then (if I'm lucky) she admits being mean. And by then she's so upset she can't handle the situation and will make my life hell for days.

Consequently, I don't care to confront her anymore. And I don't know how to use any of the "tools" to alter the fact that she's just attacking me when she just refuses to talk about it.

It's gone so far that she avoids being alone with me, prefering to just watch TV when we're alone. This behaviour has escalated with the "mean" remarks.

All the while, she's going around telling me she loves me, trying to make physical contact at odd times, but ONLY when we're not alone.

I know that she's trying not to be mean. I can really she that it's something that creeps up on her like an impulse she has a hard time controling. But she really has to deal with it, just like the rest of us. And it's like... . she doesn't.

She's been like this with her mother since she was a girl. Now she's gone full on mean with me.

How to validate this? It sounds really stupid to go around saying "I know that you hate me right now for no reason... . it's ok!". I mean, I know tjat it's out of my cointrol, but it's not OK for me.

[hergestridge]

Addition to my above post:

I spend many hours every day thinking about wether these "mean" incididents were real or just things that I have exaggerated. Or if they are as frequent as I tell myself, or if they are just "one-offs". I make lists to myself in the head as if someone was going to question me and make me "state my case", going through the last 20 years over and over. It is affecting my mental well being for sure.

I know that there is no such thing as "gaslighting", but when my wife does one thing and act as nothing's happened over and over - it does my head in. It's like torture.

I never learn to have my toes stepped on. And I hope my little daughter never learns to have her toes stepped on either, because then she's in trouble.

But the cycle keeps repeating. The wife says something really hurtful. Pretends like it's raining. Having her admit it is like pulling a tooth. It's just insane. The lesson learnt is to swallow  and be happy. In this situation I think it's extremely important for everyone involved to be aware that the  is being swallowed because the person in question is mentally ill, not because the person in question is stubborn or (even worse) on some kind of power trip.

[sking]

Well its been a few weeks since I have posted.   I have been through the abuse cycle with my h a few times since.  I appreciate the 'gain your ground' while they are in the remorse stage.  This seemed to work very well and he manages to stay 'normal' for more days in a row.  This last time about 6 full days.  The 7th day he woke up angry and was unwilling to try and help himself not get to the anger rage stage.  That stage last the typical 7 days.  The 7-10 days of emotional and psychological abuse are taking their tole on me.  I am considering no contact, completely understand why this is suggested, and divorce.  One of my kids is home from school for the summer and the other is due home in a month.  I can't imagine them having to witness or have them subjected to this cycle. 

Does anyone know of a program for emotional and pshychological abusers.  My h has a psychiatrist and access to two other therapists with different styles.  Are there any other suggestions or program?

I guess I realize that I either have to accept this or move on.  I am afraid that if this is how he treats me when I'm with him what will it be like when I try to divorce him.

[DreamFlyer99]

sking,

that seems like a really rapid cycle, and that's got to be incredibly difficult!

We really have to work on ourselves and not figure on talking them into getting therapy. And sometimes somebody's got to hit bottom before they realize how badly they've messed up the r/s. The thing about us telling them to get help is that it only works if they too are interested in improving the r/s. If they don't show by their actions that they are, then we need to stick with learning to be our strongest and best person we can be since we are the only one whose choices we can change, yunno?

[MissyM]

I am wondering if anyone else has tried what was suggested to me?  I haven't tried this but they did mention it to me at the treatment center.  When my dBPDh says something cruel, they said to look at him and say, "Wow, that really hurt."  Not in a mean way but in a genuine, hurt way.  Maybe I will try that next time and see what the response is.  I am sure it will be something nasty but wonder if it will extinguish the behavior over time.  As long as I don't end up JADEing why it hurt.

[rj47]

I am wondering if anyone else has tried what was suggested to me?  I haven't tried this but they did mention it to me at the treatment center.  When my dBPDh says something cruel, they said to look at him and say, "Wow, that really hurt."  Not in a mean way but in a genuine, hurt way.  Maybe I will try that next time and see what the response is.  I am sure it will be something nasty but wonder if it will extinguish the behavior over time.  As long as I don't end up JADEing why it hurt.

Whoa... . in my case saying such a thing is basically handing her the rope to hang me with. Expressions of weakness outside of addressing the utter unacceptability of the abuse head on is simply providing fodder for more abuse. I have worked hard to confront and withstand the triggers she employs to break me. There was a time when she could reduce me to a blithering idiot. Shes good. Very good. But no more... . I am learning, growing stronger every day and expanding the acceptable boundaries with each new low she attempts to bring us to.

A few days ago she had an "epiphany" and now realizes that she has been a terrible abuser for at least a decade. She's announced to me and our adult children that she is deeply sorry, is getting back into therapy, and, will never have another episode... . ever. I'm again the best man that ever lived; she's going to do everything she can to keep me; and, will spend the rest of her days bringing joy to my life. I used to look forward to the re-idealization phase. It mean't focused and intense love, devotion, amazing sex and contentment for a time. Now its a marker along the trail of despair to another downward spiral and brings foreboding knowing it cannot last. Just getting through a few days without the emotional highs and lows would be paradise.

[MissyM]

rj47, I thought saying that might escalate my dBPDh.  Just wondering if it would be an extinction burst.  If I said it and then disengaged.  Not sure.  Think it depends if he is working on himself and doing what the therapist says.

I hear you on the recycle.  Now when my husband tells me that he loves me and wants to do everything to make things right, I just say "Thank you, that is really nice."  While inside I am going uh-huh, until tomorrow or next week.  I am looking for consistency and until that happens, I don't believe anything he has to say.  I have seen him be consistent for months, when he was doing all of the work.  When the work stops, so does the consistency.

[rj47]

I hear you on the recycle.  Now when my husband tells me that he loves me and wants to do everything to make things right, I just say "Thank you, that is really nice."  While inside I am going uh-huh, until tomorrow or next week.

If I failed to respond with praise, affirmation and equal enthusiasm to her apologies and re-commitment by simply saying "thank you"... . it would become a trigger event of it own for her that erupts after a few days of replay and analysis. Its not that she does not mean what she's saying when she saying it. Of course she does. So I encourage and mirror back what she's throwing at me, while cringing inwardly. Of course I hope this time will be different. Hope for the best, expect the worst. It seems the height of cynicism to think in such manner; and its grossly unfair to them (and us); but, how we manage the madness and hold things together.